@Monkey:
Russia does not abide by live and let live.
You mean the first country since Saddam Hussein's Iraq to annex foreign soil through military means? That Russia? Yeah, truly a mystery why they are singled out.
What are you fucking kidding? I mean I know Western Europeans can get to imagining Eastern Europe as a distant fictional land populated by martians but holy shit wow.
Maybe Putin ought to swipe Sicily or Wales from whichever country you wanna identify with right now and we'll see how comfortable you are talking like this.
No it fucking doesn't. What an unbeleivably dumb fiction this is.
You probably laughed a bit at the idea of Sicily or Wales being invaded. Do you think other regions can laugh like this?
Russia has killed indirectly or directly far far more Europeans than ISIS has.
It's just they come from a poor former Soviet nation that you don't give a fuck about. Well aside from that plane of Dutch people, if you even remember that.
Oh yeah and the conflict involved is still going.
Also Russia is funding and supporting the rise of autocratic far-right elements throughout western Europe and North America. Meaning they are directly attacking western values in a very substantial way that ISIS can only dream of by comparison.
But yeah sure, not an enemy. Not to anyone that matters or anything.
Hey actually riddle me this. Why should I give a fuck if ISIS blows up a cafe in Milan when you don't give a fuck about Russian backed militiamen firing mortars into Mariupol? Like for me as an American what's the difference here?
Sure. When the Russian government is actually not behaving horribly and aggressively that would be great.
The Trump position is Russia getting to do what it wants as it's been doing. So Russia doesn't change anything, the west does. This is not two sides talking things down.
Negative actions bring negative remarks.
The Russian people will be told and fed anti-American propaganda for exactly as long as Putin deems it useful for his ends. It has almost nothing whatsoever to do with actual reality.
lol you think Russians aren't fully in state media control and will have counter-narratives reaching them.
It's obtuse to you because you apparently are both wildly clueless and/or heavily dismissive about Eastern Europeans being people equal to Western Europeans (aside of course from Russians).
The entire narrative of Democrats being particularly anti-Russian is bullshit concocted by the alt-right/populist movement people. And as in the past you've lapped up their garbage seemingly without question or consideration.
Oh wow really? That's it? All that you are aware of in Ukraine? What the fuck makes you think you could discuss this topic. You are entirely unaware of this.
Yeah yeah, ok guys whoa, so they directly interfered in your democracy. Big deal!
Seriously. Are you this goddamn clueless.
When Russia continues acting horribly. Which Trump is fine with.
What the fuck are you talking about lol.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Alt-Right: DEMS ARE SO BAD ON RUSSIA
Right, this is a lot to unpack.
A lot of saying how bad Russia is what they've done to be considered bad. (I never sought to underplay any of Russia's actions, nor will I argue against any of the points you've so eloquently put forth about why they're bad. That was quite simply not the point!). On the live and let live point, it's true that Russia doesn't abide by that, but that's not a reason for the US to sweep to their level.
A lot of wild accusations about me not 'caring' about eastern europe, thinking of eastern europeans as 'martians' because I'm from western europe (which is utter identity/nationality politics bullshit, I'd retort. You've built a nice strawman there.)
You also stated that none of Hillary's rhetoric was in any way leading to Nuclear conflict. I'd argue otherwise, she was incredibly inflammatory, played 'anti-russia' it as a strategy to get votes. Had she won, she would have been starting from a very very precarious position on Russia, reminiscent of the cold war. But we can disagree on that, it doesn't matter. She lost, game over. Moving on.
You also implied that since I'm criticising the anti-russia stance, I'm alt-right, which is obviously not the case. You can be left wing and not a democrat. You seem to have missed quite a few parties in your little list. Like the libertarians, the greens, what you could call the alt-left (Bernie's platform). All of which are against maintaining anti-russian stances.
Lastly, let me look at the good reasons why to maintain a strong anti-russia government stance. Not why we the Russian government is bad, or immoral, or any other thing you might have understood. Obviously Putin is terrible and his country is an authoritarian mess. But why should the US government, and it's politicians, be explicitly 'anti-russia'. What is the aim (not the reason) of the sanctions.
The most obvious to me is what Red_vs_Green said
"My guess is to cripple them economically so they can't just throw money into doing things…..like annexing land that doesn't belong to them or helping morally dubious leaders."
Indeed this is all true. But does it really outweigh the risks involved in explicitly making a country with a large military power, who also has nukes and an unstable leader, angry? Is it really worth the effort when they are our 'allies' against ISIS, and we're trying to have our strike teams work together and our troops attack together against terrorists? Is giving real, tangible reasons to the hate the US to russian nationals a good thing? I'm sure are also very much fed state lies, but is it wise to exacerbate the problem by damaging their economy and making the people feel the consequences of US sanctions first hand?
I'm not trying to 'excuse' Russia in any way. I find their actions over the last few years completely deplorable, and will condemn them as much as the next person. I'm just questioning the response that establishment Dems and Republicans alike seem to want the US government to take, because quite frankly, it seems counterproductive if you're trying to maintain world peace. And as for ensuring that Russia does not act belligerent towards countries, or try to annex land in a militaristic way, I frankly don't see these sanctions stopping this from happening. They're not helping, they're not changing anything. They're just a small nuisance that Putin is channeling to create more and more antipathy towards the US and the west, and thus maintain power.
Reset relationships. Start anew, treating Russia as an ally. And if they act out of line, double down on the sanctions. Hit the one-percent in Russia, the people Putin surrounds himself with, and freeze their assets. Try to avoid damaging the middle class and the poor. Keep pressing Putin personally them until he goes back on his belligerent actions, whatever they may be. Providing compensation and all.
Is that really such a 'radical' proposal?