Chapter 967: Roger's Adventure

Artur

All of this is totally reasonable, Artur. As I said too, there is always room to compare and contrast the strengths and weaknesses of different translations because that is an inherent feature of the form, and I don't have a problem with that. Someone here used to compare different English translations and list where they differed, noting the ways they affected the reading experience of each scene, which was often interesting and done more with curiosity than in a sense of judgment. If I had sensed that the results of your article were as fair as that, again, I would not have bothered to comment because I don't have a problem with that. At any rate, I've stated my unhappiness with the way you did it and you saw my feedback, so I will return to my silence and let you continue doing your thing, however you choose to do it.

Thanks. As I've said above I didn't think much of it at first as I didn't think it would've been taken this way, but I clearly should've put more thought into it and approached it in a different manner. I don't really intend to do this again regardless, I certainly have my hands full with my own work as I'm sure you do with yours too, and if I were to seriously tackle this as an insightful difference between translations like Faith did instead of what I tried to do, I feel it'd require much more talent and time to work on it.

Thanks again for taking the time to read it all. I'm glad at the very least we could end it on a respectful note for both.

HeartOfDarkness

@Robby:

If you are posting on this forum right now, you are not one of those people, your perspective is different. You know Zoro is right, so you get thrown every time you see it different. But think how that works in the other direction.

But doesn't that entire logic assumes that:

A.) That person only reads the volume.

B.) Never did any One Piece google searches or any research

C.) Never visited any social-media sites

D.) Never watched the anime English dub or original

Do you see? You have to rely on lots of unusual factors and hope that the person reading the series lives under a rock to be somehow confused by Zoro. Especially since anime, in general, are more popular and likely to draw people then mangas.

I can't really see your logic translating well to actual real-life scenario.

Robby

@HeartOfDarkness:

Do you see? You have to rely on lots of unusual factors and hope that the person reading the series lives under a rock to be somehow confused by Zoro. Especially since anime, in general, are more popular and likely to draw people then mangas.

I can't really see your logic translating well to actual real-life scenario.

I literally already replied to this exact point.

I never said they'd be "confused". But jarred.

Everyone here knows perfectly damn well its Zoro but they freak out and feel like its super wrong when its spelled different by one letter. Because they learned it a different way.

Do that same thing in reverse and everyone that's been reading Zolo for two decades will be weirded out every time they see its different, even if they know and understand the reason for the change.

It'd be like if in book 4, they suddenly started calling him Harry Pohter. You'd blanch every single time you saw the different name, even if the author declared it was always meant to be that way.

You know exactly why he's called Zolo. It's been explained in a logical manner, at length, as if someone gave you translators notes along with publisher's notes, telling you why its that way even though you're used to something different. But it still bites you as completely wrong and you can't get past it at all because its just not how its supposed to be, its not the name you learned first, its not the intended version..

To this day I still think Rob Lucci's name is Lucchi because that's what the fan translations did his name as for the first two years. I know perfectly well Lucci is the actual spelling and is correct, but its always Lucchi to me, and its been over a decade since those fan translations. That's the name stuck in my head. Over in Dragonball I know its Freeza, not Frieza, but Frieza is what I'll write first every time.

Going back to my Robotech example. I know Lisa Hayes was Misa, and Rick Hunter was Ichijo Hikaru, but I always call them Lisa and Rick, even if I'm watching the Japanese subtitled version where they say "Hikaru" a thousand times. Those are the names I learned first, that I spent years with. Those are the names that are natural and seem right, even if they're wrong, or even if they're wildly different, it's still jarring to me for them to be different, no matter how extensive a translator's note I've been given.

On the other end of the spectrum, take Jinbe. Early translations and the official Viz spelling are "Jimbei". The official romanization is "Jinbe". The wiki uses both plus a third spelling of "Jinbei". And no one EVER complains about it. It's different by TWO letters! Why is Jinbe okay when Zolo isn't? Why is Zoro important to always be offended about while Jimbei is not?

Podiscans

This post is deleted!

Captain M

@HeartOfDarkness:

But doesn't that entire logic assumes that:

A.) That person only reads the volume.

B.) Never did any One Piece google searches or any research

C.) Never visited any social-media sites

D.) Never watched the anime English dub or original

Do you see? You have to rely on lots of unusual factors and hope that the person reading the series lives under a rock to be somehow confused by Zoro. Especially since anime, in general, are more popular and likely to draw people then mangas.

I can't really see your logic translating well to actual real-life scenario.

Actually this is an interesting point. I posted like 6 months ago about my partner reading all of One Piece as part of a birthday surprise, and he did so through my set of physical volumes to start out, then switched to the SJ app when he realised how much of an issue secrecy was going to be with the books. And I'd talked about One Piece to him, explained why it was such a passion, recapped some of my favourite scenes and characters and so on, and of course I always say Zoro when it comes up in casual conversation. He'd also have seen a few facebook and tumblr posts on the series which would also have used Zoro. He came to me at one point during the secret readthrough and asked "when does Zolo become Zoro," I think assuming it was either a narrative thing or something that would be retconned. (in hindsight, what a risky move that was for secret reading, but I just assumed he saw something online and got curious lol) I gave the quick and easy explanation: 4kids felt copyright pressure, Viz felt 4kids pressure, no one's really a fan of it, but the publisher felt they'd come too far to change it. He gave a simple "okay" and went back to reading.

Even as a casual anime/manga fan he's aware of different releases having slightly different translations, even for things like character names, and interchangable Ls and Rs being a thing in the Japanese language. He wasn't bothered by it. It didn't break his immersion knowing there was another version of the name most people preferred, he just enjoyed the ride. When asked, he said it would probably have been jarring if the name had suddenly changed in the middle of his marathon read, but his ultimate stance was, and I quote "who gives a fuck, he's still the three sword guy. It's not like changing an actor or anything, he's still the same person."

So there's your mythical Viz only, no-anime, non-fanbase involved reader perspective. He doesn't care, doesn't think it matters that much, and definitely thinks we're all taking it too seriously.

Nolus

The Zoro-Zolo debate is a strange hill to die on, I think. Of all the complaints and negatives people bring up against the official translation, this one crops up among the most common ones yet I feel it's the most inconsequential.

There are lessons to be learned from the likes of Haki, Catviper and Neptunians, especially from a cultural and practical (in terms of translation) perspectives. It just goes to show how beautiful human language in gerenal is, with all it's nooks and crannies and pitfalls of culture, traditions and way of thinking about the world.

RoboBlue

@Robby:

I never said they'd be "confused". But jarred.

Everyone here knows perfectly damn well its Zoro but they freak out and feel like its super wrong when its spelled different by one letter. Because they learned it a different way.

Do that same thing in reverse and everyone that's been reading Zolo for two decades will be weirded out every time they see its different, even if they know and understand the reason for the change.

It'd be like if in book 4, they suddenly started calling him Harry Pohter. You'd blanch every single time you saw the different name, even if the author declared it was always meant to be that way.

Ah, but the Shonen Jump preview at Comicon first came out July 2002, I still have my copy! And they had already been printing Dragonball for years which was initially the main title anyone cared about! And I'd already seen raw anime of the Arlong arc at that point!

Yes, it's absolutely being anal. 18 years or 20 years ago, the point is the same, the window to make that switch back to Zoro passed a decade ago. When they did the mass reprints and the catch up marathon for a year was the last reasonable place to make the change.

You might have a point if the new name made any sense, but it's awful and Funimation ignores it entirely.

This is like if the first HP book had the name "Harry Potter", then it was reprinted with the name "Hairy Purpler" and even though the next six books used the new name, the movies all used Harry Potter anyway, so 99% of the fans all use the original name that doesn't sound ridiculous.
The 1% of One Piece fans who have no idea that his name is supposed to be Zoro are not a good enough reason for Viz to refuse to change the name back.

(As a sidenote, no disrespect to Stephen, he had nothing to do with this).

Nolus

@Robby:

On the other end of the spectrum, take Jinbe. Early translations and the official Viz spelling are "Jimbei". The official romanization is "Jinbe". The wiki uses both plus a third spelling of "Jinbei". And no one EVER complains about it. It's different by TWO letters! Why is Jinbe okay when Zolo isn't? Why is Zoro important to always be offended about while Jimbei is not?

I guess the Jinbe-Jimbei debate is a little different since the pronounciation is almost identical in this case, so I think it's less noticable. "n" and "m" also look very similar to each other, so much so, that in unfamiliar words I have to look twice to make sure it's either this or that (not necessarily talking about English, mind you). As for the "i" at the end, it's such a small little letter, thin too, and it sits at the end of the word so it's bound to be less pronounced I believe.

RoboBlue

@Robby:

On the other end of the spectrum, take Jinbe. Early translations and the official Viz spelling are "Jimbei". The official romanization is "Jinbe". The wiki uses both plus a third spelling of "Jinbei". And no one EVER complains about it. It's different by TWO letters! Why is Jinbe okay when Zolo isn't? Why is Zoro important to always be offended about while Jimbei is not?

It helps that Jimbei sounds pretty close and wasn't a hand me down from 4Kids.

Honestly I'm not sure I trust Oda's English enough to say that the current official spelling of Jinbe is its "final form".
Zoro on the other hand is obviously correct and Zolo is obviously not.

wolfwood

I think the main reason for why that small change irks people is because it isn't a change to make it easier to read or pronounce. It is altering a perfectly pronounceable name to a form that either reads like a new name, or makes it sound like the person saying it has a speech impediment. Where as Jimbei/Jinbei hardly makes a dent in the pronounciation

Nolus

@wolfwood:

I think the main reason for why that small change irks people is because it isn't a change to make it easier to read or pronounce. It is altering a perfectly pronounceable name to a form that either reads like a new name, or makes it sound like the person saying it has a speech impediment. Where as Jimbei/Jinbei hardly makes a dent in the pronounciation

I do have to admit, seeing Zolo over and over again conjured in my mind the Age of Empires priest converting "wololo" sound.

"Zololo"

wolfwood

@Nolus:

I do have to admit, seeing Zolo over and over again conjured in my mind the Age of Empires priest converting "wololo" sound.

"Zololo"

Wolo would probably have rolled better off the tongue. Or Steve, Steve the pirate hunter. It is a strange scenario where only one letter is altered but it ends up feeling more off than if you had changed the whole thing. It's like the worst meet you half way option on the board

Blissed

Yea Jinbe/Jimbei/Jinbe never bothered me.

@Nolus:

The Zoro-Zolo debate is a strange hill to die on, I think. Of all the complaints and negatives people bring up against the official translation, this one crops up among the most common ones yet I feel it's the most inconsequential.

There are lessons to be learned from the likes of Haki, Catviper and Neptunians, especially from a cultural and practical (in terms of translation) perspectives. It just goes to show how beautiful human language in gerenal is, with all it's nooks and crannies and pitfalls of culture, traditions and way of thinking about the world.

Ironically it's because it's this super small, easy (from the perspective of those that hate Zolo at least) thing to change that it ends up bugging people so much. Something like Cat Viper isn't liked by many either, but it's whatever, that's what the official release chose to go with.

Whereas Zoro is something virtually everyone, including the official translator, recognizes as being correct, and yet literally the only stopping it from being changed is a adherence to consistency that many just view as stubbornness on Viz's part more than anything else.

So it's like, everyone knows it should be changed, but it won't ever be, and the reasoning for that just has never been convincing. And that's why it's just so much more frustrating for people lol

PeanutGallery

@stephen:

When you post a giant laundry list of every possible discrepancy you could find, your readers aren't thinking "hmm interesting, all/some/none of these could be true or valid critiques," they see 30 bullet points and think "wow it must incredibly bad if there are that many things wrong with it." Many replies to your list basically amounted to that. Whether or not you intend it to come off that way, that is what people see.

Speak for yourself. I do think "hmm, these could be valid critiques." I don't think "hmm this must be really bad." In my opinion, most of Arturs readers would be more discerning than that. It takes some dedication and reading comprehension to get through a long article. So please don't assume the worst about people. Even if it is the internet.

By making these types of generalizations, you're painting yourself as a victim. You have overgeneralized and re-framed the scenario as one in which the general publics opinion is invalidated.

This, and many other key phrases in your response make you sound rude and dismissive. That's probably intentional, since you said you don't want to reply to the criticisms at all. Of course you're not required to make your own bullet list of counter points. It's your prerogative to dodge the question. But if that's the case then don't be upset when strangers continue to grill you. You can't cloister yourself in the translation tower, but also be indignant at the peasants gathered around the soapbox.

@stephen:

There are lots of people out there who bash the official translation for things that I didn't do and can't control (I would never respond to that)

Gosh I wish you would respond to them. We certainly have no way of knowing what choices are yours, and what is out of your control. I hope you're paid enough to take the public wrath on behalf for your bosses/coworkers.

andre

@PeanutGallery:

Speak for yourself. I do think "hmm, these could be valid critiques." I don't think "hmm this must be really bad." In my opinion, most of Arturs readers would be more discerning than that. It takes some dedication and reading comprehension to get through a long article. So please don't assume the worst about people. Even if it is the internet.

By making these types of generalizations, you're painting yourself as a victim. You have overgeneralized and re-framed the scenario as one in which the general publics opinion is invalidated.

This, and many other key phrases in your response make you sound rude and dismissive. That's probably intentional, since you said you don't want to reply to the criticisms at all. Of course you're not required to make your own bullet list of counter points. It's your prerogative to dodge the question. But if that's the case then don't be upset when strangers continue to grill you. You can't cloister yourself in the translation tower, but also be indignant at the peasants gathered around the soapbox.

Gosh I wish you would respond to them. We certainly have no way of knowing what choices are yours, and what is out of your control. I hope you're paid enough to take the public wrath on behalf for your bosses/coworkers.

Gotta say, I don't really buy YOUR argument about most of Artur's reader's discernment when you don't have enough of it to realize your credibility is at zelo(Or zero) when you make a profile here specifically to talk shit. Well, i at least don't think you're a bastion of discernment.

Crimz

Hi just wondering if there's chapter/spoilers this week?

PeanutGallery

"You haven't been on this forum as long as me, so your argument is invalid."

Pro logic.

wolfwood

You do tend to think about Artur as that guy who hates Viz.

It's kind of become his persona.

nizar

Any spoilers soon ?

KzTxL7

I can ignore most of the changes in the official translations but Zolo is the one that will particularly always bug me. It's a major character's name. And that one letter when saying it makes it feel so different.

Kdom

@RoboBlue:

You might have a point if the new name made any sense, but it's awful and Funimation ignores it entirely.

This is like if the first HP book had the name "Harry Potter", then it was reprinted with the name "Hairy Purpler" and even though the next six books used the new name, the movies all used Harry Potter anyway, so 99% of the fans all use the original name that doesn't sound ridiculous.
The 1% of One Piece fans who have no idea that his name is supposed to be Zoro are not a good enough reason for Viz to refuse to change the name back.

(As a sidenote, no disrespect to Stephen, he had nothing to do with this).

I'm not sure Harry Potter is a good example given that ,at least in French, more than 50% of the names have been changed. Hogwart is Poudlard, Hufflepuff is Poustouffle, Snape is Rogue, muggles are moldus, etc… And guess what, Hermione in German is called Hermine

BingBang

@nizar:

Any spoilers soon ?

no spoilers until next week I think….

wolfwood

@Kdom:

I'm not sure Harry Potter is a good example given that ,at least in French, more than 50% of the names have been changed. Hogwart is Poudlard, Hufflepuff is Poustouffle, Snape is Rogue, muggles are moldus, etc… And guess what, Hermione in German is called Hermine

uniaka ikuzakas

Post TS Zoro becomes the most boring character in the crew, and I would dare say most of the manga. None, nothing.

Viz still calls him zolo instead of Zoro. Everyone îs triggered

Nolus

@wolfwood:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/295/458/1a9.jpg

In Hungarian too. Hogwarts became Roxfort, Griffyndor became Griffendél, Severus Snape became Perselus Piton (as in the snake). Most of them if not all are pretty well-done in my opinion.

wolfwood

@Nolus:

In Hungarian too. Hogwarts became Roxfort, Griffyndor became Griffendél, Severus Snape became Perselus Piton (as in the snake). Most of them if not all are pretty well-done in my opinion.

Hungarians are human too. So my Obelixing stands.

Also Roxfort is adorable.

Kdom

@wolfwood:

Hungarians are human too. So my Obelixing stands.

Also Roxfort is adorable.

What about your Ordralphabetixing, Assurancetourixing, Cetautomatixing, Panoramixing, Agecanonixing, Idefixing and Soupalognon Y Croutoning ?

HaxeyeMihawk

Just my 2 cents on these translation points:

1. Zoro/Zolo: I think this argument is summed up just fine with the fact that Zoro can't be trademarked which I assume would have to do with the character of El Zorro? If its an issue of registering the characters name then that makes sense. I don't agree with the idea that official only readers would've been jarred by the name change personally, simply because I started OP through 4kids where it was Zolo then switched to the manga and had a "aha!" moment when I read "Zoro" since I immediately comnected it to a reference to Zorro the spanish masked swordsman. Now I've always assumed that was Oda's intent behind the namesake to begin with, if that is a correct assumption then I would assume most other readers would connect the same dots.

2. Haki: I really hate referencing this tired decade old argument but I saw this brought up and I've always been one to want this left untranslated. The problem that I've always found with translating this into willpower/ambition/drive etc is that characters are capable of demonstrating willpower but have to be trained in haki in order to manifest it as a power. Outside of Luffy having uncontrolled bursts of CoC he couldn't use haki until Rayleigh trained him. So if it were translated into willpower or ambition etc, it would be very cumbersome to try to convey haki as the supernatural art of manifesting one's willpower vs regular willpower when there's clearly a distinction. Luffy had plenty of drive and willpower to hit logia opponents he encountered preskip the problem was that he didn't know the art form.

3. Emperor/Warlord/Supernova: These issues I find to be going in the direction of weebness so I've personally never been against these being translated. The only thing Id say that I can see an issue with the english translated names being too generic in the case of emperor and warlord. Supernova doesn't have this issue because referencing the group of supernovas is clearly not referring to a literal group of exploding stars but metaphorically thats what they are. By simply calling the Yonkou the 4 emperors there isn't anything making this distinct in universe. What I mean is that if there were a regular non pirate emperor in the op verse theres nothing in the name of emperor that separates the 4 pirate emperors from the regular word without adding of the sea or calling them "Pirate Emperors" etc. Ditto for Warlord.

Chams

I know the discussion has been heated but I for one love seeing the explanationa behind the names and the translations choices being discussed. It gives me amazing insights into language and translation. I, for one, would say that Luffy is the 5ft Younkou without noticing I was saying Luffy os the 5ft 4 emperors. Being part of this forum really taught me some things about japanese.

wonder if readers that only knew Katakuri by the name dogtooth wpuld know that it was also a food, and not a reference to his teeth.

andre

@PeanutGallery:

"You haven't been on this forum as long as me, so your argument is invalid."

Pro logic.

I didn't say your argument was invalid, I said your discernment was suspect. It is.

.access timeco.

"Join Date: Jan 2020" seems to be attached to a very specific profile so far

King Cannon

@PeanutGallery:

"You haven't been on this forum as long as me, so your argument is invalid."

Pro logic.

Says the guy wasting his time making troll accounts to win an Internet argument.

wolfwood

@Kdom:

What about your Ordralphabetixing, Assurancetourixing, Cetautomatixing, Panoramixing, Agecanonixing, Idefixing and Soupalognon Y Croutoning ?

Our Idefix is quite alright thank you for noticing. The rest are probably all translated as terrible Swedish puns, as even the Swedes were humans back in the 70's when those works were translated. Like tragicomix, homeopatix or majestix and any other low hanging pun fruit

Cyan D. Funk

I for one appreciate that the VIZ translations actually convey what the fuck is going on in the story because scanlations have been pretty terrible at that for a while now.

Robby

This post is deleted!

The D.

What is even happening here anymore, lol.

KageKageKing

Those fan translations do tend to get a little too much freedom in my opinion. I heard that the scans said that Buggy got that one disease that Usopp made up.

Captain Krupp

Anyone who doesnt use NAKAMA in a official translation is golden to me.

KageKageKing

@The:

What is even happening here anymore, lol.

Local internet poster gets upset over one letter being changed on someone's name.

wolfwood

@Cyan:

I for one appreciate that the VIZ translations actually convey what the fuck is going on in the story because scanlations have been pretty terrible at that for a while now.

But what about their expert use of profanity and street slang.

@KageKageKing:

Local internet poster gets upset over one letter being changed on someone's name.

You tell 'em bagebageking.

Nolus

@wolfwood:

You tell 'em bagebageking.

Weren't you named Wolfwoof once?

wolfwood

@Nolus:

Weren't you named Wolfwoof once?

I think they retconned that in season 8.

I'll have to look over the translators notes.

Kdom

@wolfwood:

Our Idefix is quite alright thank you for noticing. The rest are probably all translated as terrible Swedish puns, as even the Swedes were humans back in the 70's when those works were translated. Like tragicomix, homeopatix or majestix and any other low hanging pun fruit

it's well known Idefix has no swedish translation issue

but i doubt the other dog is called Zøødvinsen everywhere
congrats to the one who understands the french pun here…

Jabra

Are we Reddit-Famous now? Are those people watching us?

Because I always wanted to share some things with the world that usually don't belong here!

Like this strawberry that totally looks like the Op Op no Mi!

!

Zach Logan

@Jabra:

Are we Reddit-Famous now? Are those people watching us?

Because I always wanted to share some things with the world that usually don't belong here!

Like this strawberry that totally looks like the Op Op no Mi!

! [qimg]https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/terminal01/2009/9/22/13/enhanced-buzz-8544-1253638828-11.jpg[/qimg]

That is the coolest strawberry I’ve ever seen!

andre

@Zach:

That is the coolest strawberry I’ve ever seen!

Are you sure about that?

!

Cyan D. Funk

@wolfwood:

But what about their expert use of profanity and street slang.

Japanese: He went inside the house.
VIZ version: He went inside the house.
Scanlators: That piece of shit motherfucker asshole went outside the fucking house, goddammit, desu.

Zach Logan

@andre:

Are you sure about that?

! https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/f/f2/Strawberry_Anime_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/270?cb=20130127225213

Wow, I walked right into that one.

wolfwood

@Cyan:

Japanese: He went inside the house.
VIZ version: He went inside the house.
Scanlators: That piece of shit motherfucker asshole went outside the fucking house, goddammit, desu.

What happend you Stephen. You used to be cool….i assume. Like had a little limp bizkit hat and whatever else the college crowd wore to get laid. And now we can't even get a little motherfucker in our factually accurate one piece chapters. Tsk tsk.

Kaiolino

@Kdom:

I'm not sure Harry Potter is a good example given that ,at least in French, more than 50% of the names have been changed. Hogwart is Poudlard, Hufflepuff is Poustouffle, Snape is Rogue, muggles are moldus, etc… And guess what, Hermione in German is called Hermine

lol I was reading the last four pages since I last checked and I was ready to bring up international Harry Potter only to see you beat me to the punch already.

Dutch Harry Potter changes every name except for the titular character, often adding puns to them (retranslating them to English, Dumbledore's Dutch name is sort of like Parchmentus, McGonagall is Otherkin, etc). And Snape is changed to Sneep so that the kiddies know how to pronounce his names correctly (just like certain Viz terms!). And then there were the completely unneccesary changes like turning Tonks into Tops. Now, is this translation maligned by fans? Nope, because they were all introduced to these names first. And the translator is renowned among his peers for providing the gold standard of how to adapt a book.