Dunno what form it'll take, but we're definitely getting a payoff to Momo's training, no doubt about that.
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Also this talk about power level wankers as you call them is ridiculous. OP is also a battle manga and everything is getting resolved by fighting. So yes people can get mad about the power scaling of the series and how Oda messes with them sometimes
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Well, I guess if we're building to Momo getting the win that his father rightfully could have gotten, but didn't because he was distracted by seeing Momo in danger specifically, then the way that scene plays out makes more sense. Would have worked a lot better if that actually had been Momonosuke instead of a clone tho. And it still makes Kaido look bad.
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Yeah, Luffy riding Momo to take a fight to the sky is pretty much a must, but it needs to be more than that otherwise its no different than in Skypeia where Nami gave him a motor scooter ride or FI when SHirahoshi helped with the boat.
Momo's been training to do a specific strike with a unique call out phrase, and loooots of hay has been made about all the uber swords (that Zoro is now using). There's stuff. Maybe Moo hits a weakpoint where the old scar is or something or hears the voice of all things and etc. etc.
I think Momonosuke flying with Luffy to allow him to execute the decisive finisher vs Kaido is more than enough to satisfy the Momotaro narrative imo. Also Momo isn't going to use the chant 'Sunacchi' as Kiku says, it's not fitting for royalty, the future Shogun of Wano to throw away his name (symbolically). And in the latest chapter we indeed see him refuse to throw away his name.
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So, Joy Boy, got a question for you. If next chapter, Kaido beats the Scabbards down, are you going to come back to this thread and take back all your shittalking?
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The amount of Bullshit being told by that JohnTnaig (dumb troll) and JoyBoy are one a different level
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We reached a point when someone praised Big Mom's strength and complained that Kaido is by far the weakest of the Four Emperors. Good job guys, see you after Kaido needs basically every character in this arc to fight him before Luffy can finish the job.
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I don't think they're trolling and the way they approach One Piece certainly is the same as a pretty big portion of its fans.
They are trolling - otherwise they are absolutely ignorant, incompetent and just talking bs.
Especially calling Kaido the weakest..
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We reached a point when someone praised Big Mom's strength and complained that Kaido is by far the weakest of the Four Emperors. Good job guys, see you after Kaido needs basically every character in this arc to fight him before Luffy can finish the job.
Pfffft, you think that will convince them?
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
I don't believe Blackbeard is the final villain because it doesn't fit the narrative at all. Has nothing to do with power level.
Wow.. I dont expect something like this coming from you Cosmo…:blink:
Another thing regarding Kaido vs Oden, the result, powerlevel discussion or whatever. Also a little bit of that anime vs manga complaints, thanks HeartofDarkness, Blissed, Robby and some others for sharing your input.
You guys reminding me of why apforums is my favorite One Piece forums and still is. This showed me that ylthere are many other fans who dont need some How to Write a Story Text book or creating your own headcannon to actually understand a literature. -
What do you guys think Kings race is?
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I…what?
Kaido is the strongest creature in the world.
Not the toughest, craftiest, most lithe, smartest, best swordsman, most invulnerable, fairest, cheapest, most weapon-savvy, best strategist, or any other superlative.
Put him in an arm-wrestling contest, he's probably going to win majority of matches.
Put him up against a swordsman it's an entirely different set of rules, checks and balances.
If Kaido was deemed the 'greatest warrior in all fields known to humankind' and he was depicted as losing, yeah, that would take him down a notch. But Kaido is tough (never said to be the toughest), and he's strong. If he betrays that strength, yes, Oda has failed. But him falling to a weapon doesn't betray anything about his establishment. Only the blanks we fill in on our own.
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What do you guys think Kings race is?
I would imagine some sort of Sky-Lander.
Come to think of it, you'd think people would take more notice of Urouge for being one, as well.
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Well said Greg.
16 chars
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@Johnny:
I would imagine some sort of Sky-Lander.
Come to think of it, you'd think people would take more notice of Urouge for being one, as well.
I assumed if it was just another race we already knew about Oda would have just outright said it and not left an air of mystery to it
I could be wrong though
My personal theory is Fairies since I can’t think of much else From mythology Oda hasn’t done already that has wings
Probably wrong on that one though
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I like powerlevels. I think they're fun.
However, you have to understand story is always going to take over more than powerlevels. Kaidou is such a foil to Oden I thought it was perfect for Oden to beat Kaidou.
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I…what?
Kaido is the strongest creature in the world.
Not the toughest, craftiest, most lithe, smartest, best swordsman, most invulnerable, fairest, cheapest, most weapon-savvy, best strategist, or any other superlative.
Put him in an arm-wrestling contest, he's probably going to win majority of matches.
Put him up against a swordsman it's an entirely different set of rules, checks and balances.
If Kaido was deemed the 'greatest warrior in all fields known to humankind' and he was depicted as losing, yeah, that would take him down a notch. But Kaido is tough (never said to be the toughest), and he's strong. If he betrays that strength, yes, Oda has failed. But him falling to a weapon doesn't betray anything about his establishment. Only the blanks we fill in on our own.
This is a well-written post of course but… Next chapter will answer a loooot of questions people have.
I think what is best to do is just wait and see, a very short time.
People tend to get caught up in Oda's baiting, which he does love to do. It's not a meme, it's an actual tactic he uses.
The amount of people who were like "OMG BRO DID KAIDO GET KNOCKED OUT?? WHITE EYES!!" when we ended on the Elephant Gun in 922~ (a regular Gear 3 attack... an attack Doflamingo took as if it was a joke) was utterly hilarious and really exposed that a lot of the fandom just does not look even slightly past the surface level of what's going on. All this sets them up to do is immediately get proven wrong.
Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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IMO it would be legit for Kaidou to have PTS from Oden. After all he took the only wound he has from him.
The way how he got rid of Oden also seems like he wanted him outta the way asap. Or for "Arlong-villain-hypage".
But I'm quite sure the scabbards won't leave a single Scratch on Kaidou. Kaidou will just be pissed that they tossed him by surprise off the balcony.
I'm more surprised Luffy let the scabbards attack Kaidou first. He sure has grown up.
IDK if a younger Luffy would have managed to let that happen.EDIT: Kaidou's intro told us he suffered 7 defeats (my headcanon says Rocks, Garp, his mom, Maybe?)
But the intro also told us those defeats might not have happened recently. -
I…what?
Kaido is the strongest creature in the world.
Not the toughest, craftiest, most lithe, smartest, best swordsman, most invulnerable, fairest, cheapest, most weapon-savvy, best strategist, or any other superlative.
Put him in an arm-wrestling contest, he's probably going to win majority of matches.
Put him up against a swordsman it's an entirely different set of rules, checks and balances.
If Kaido was deemed the 'greatest warrior in all fields known to humankind' and he was depicted as losing, yeah, that would take him down a notch. But Kaido is tough (never said to be the toughest), and he's strong. If he betrays that strength, yes, Oda has failed. But him falling to a weapon doesn't betray anything about his establishment. Only the blanks we fill in on our own.
Pretty sure Greg that if you are introduced as someone who literally nobody can kill then you are the toughest. At least that’s how I understand it
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Johnny:
So, Joy Boy, got a question for you. If next chapter, Kaido beats the Scabbards down, are you going to come back to this thread and take back all your shittalking?
Nobody is expecting Kaido to lose now. It’s his overall portrayal that’s taken a hit. Oda gives him a great showing in chapter 985 only to have himself shit his pants against the scabbards and getting PTSD
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You're like a semi malfunctioning robot at this point
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You're like a semi malfunctioning robot at this point
Instead of trying to insult me, you can try to counter my points. Calling me a troll and then not giving a single one good counter argument does not help you
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Nah. Instead of doing that, I'll direct you to read Greg's post again. He had a good point.
Also, stop calling it PTSD, it's dumb, are you eleven?
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Also, stop calling it PTSD, it's dumb, are you eleven?
Yes. Please. It's not only dumb, pointless but I also feel like people could be offended …
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When part of Kaidous introduction is literally "nothing can hurt this man, guillotine blades break on his neck and he laughs about it", combined with the whole unscathed from jumping from 10.000 meters thing, I think its fair to say that Kaidou was indeed pitched as tough and durable, including yes -explicitly - when faced with blades
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This is a suprisingly sore subject
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Why is it that Joy Boy and Daz are leaving out the 20 year gap between Oden v Kaido and the current storyline?
Are we really going to assume that Kaido didn't get stronger after Oden explicitly told him to get stronger?
Why would Oden tell Kaido to "never come back to Wano" if he was sure he was going to land a killing blow?
Is there proof that Kaido was even labeled as the strongest creature 20 years ago?
All it takes is rational thinking for these portrayal arguments to fall apart.
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Why is it that Joy Boy and Daz are leaving out the 20 year gap between Oden v Kaido and the current storyline?
Kaidou was probably already very strong twenty years ago too. At least Big Mum was and I don't see why it should be different for Kaidou.
Maybe we will have more answer if he gets a dedicated flashback, but I wouldn't excuse his "defeat" to Oden because he was much weaker 20 years ago -
Aren't we forgetting that Oden was one of the top guys of the legendary generation, one of Whitebeard's first generation division commanders, who was specifically sought by Gold Roger for his crew? Maybe it would have been better if he had been mentioned by name before, when Whitey, Roger, Shiki et al. were talked about as old legends.
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Why is it that Joy Boy and Daz are leaving out the 20 year gap between Oden v Kaido and the current storyline?
Are we really going to assume that Kaido didn't get stronger after Oden explicitly told him to get stronger?
Why would Oden tell Kaido to "never come back to Wano" if he was sure he was going to land a killing blow?
Is there proof that Kaido was even labeled as the strongest creature 20 years ago?
All it takes is rational thinking for these portrayal arguments to fall apart.
Even if he is weaker, even if he didn't WSC 20 years ago, Kaido already had invicible body 20 years ago. So, when Oden can injure Kaido who supposed to have invicible body EFFORTLESSLY!!! Then there's a big chance he can kill him.
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Why is it that Joy Boy and Daz are leaving out the 20 year gap between Oden v Kaido and the current storyline?
Are we really going to assume that Kaido didn't get stronger after Oden explicitly told him to get stronger?
Why would Oden tell Kaido to "never come back to Wano" if he was sure he was going to land a killing blow?
Is there proof that Kaido was even labeled as the strongest creature 20 years ago?
All it takes is rational thinking for these portrayal arguments to fall apart.
To piggyback off of this… Shanks became a Yonkou in 6 years or less.
It has also been stated multiple times by different characters that Kaido and Big Mom are only getting stronger.Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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This place turned into the powerscaling arena so quickly lol. Glad I don't invest so much in strength depiction. A character coughs blood or receives a scar and Oda is instantly worst writer. Powerscaling, meaningless sales and design runs this community.
How else are you supposed to present your weekly hot-takes then?
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Why is it that Joy Boy and Daz are leaving out the 20 year gap between Oden v Kaido and the current storyline?
Are we really going to assume that Kaido didn't get stronger after Oden explicitly told him to get stronger?
Why would Oden tell Kaido to "never come back to Wano" if he was sure he was going to land a killing blow?
Is there proof that Kaido was even labeled as the strongest creature 20 years ago?
All it takes is rational thinking for these portrayal arguments to fall apart.
All this pretty much misses the points I -and others - have been trying to make.
How Kaidou stacks up relative to pre-flashback Luffy is kinda immaterial in regards to the discussion of his encounter with Oden. The point is that a certain high degree of apparent vulnerability of the villain has now been planted in the readers mind, and will thus affect his percieved threat level going forward. Like, theres a reason Oda didn't have a flashback of Crocodile getting maimed and getting his scar smack dab in the middle of Alabasta, and that Mihawk left the Baratie without touching a hair on Kriegs head.
… no matter of much people critical of the Kaido/Oden encounter stress that its not so much about damage being dealt to Kaidou as how the whole situation was framed, it will still be rebuffed by the nice n' easy "powerlevel" counterargument.
Another thing about the "Oden wasn't about to win" angle is that it completely drains the scene of any drama
Whether the fight between Oden and Kaidou was 20 years or 20 minutes ago is irrelevant. The scene is still the first time the current antagonist, whos main claim to fame is being an impervious physical powerhouse, gets shown as vulnerable, which makes the handling of said scene very impactful - especially since the scene comes before the actual protagonist gets to damage the villain.
Theres a big difference between "with a last desperate attack Oden finally managed to wound the impervious Kaidou, but it left Oden completely drained" or "After an even fight Oden finally wounds Kaidou, but then he surprises Oden by bouncing back more beastly and ferocious than ever before" or "Oden charges through an army at an untouched Kaidou, jumps at him, and grievously wounds him with his first attack"Or for another comparison, lets look at previous Brick Wall villain Lucchi - Luffy actually manages to land a hit on him that draws blood way back in Water 7, but no one felt this somehow lessened Lucchis threat level and integrity as a brick wall, because of how Luccis followup to Luffys sucker punch is framed in comparison to said punch.
Again, Its not about the concept of Oden wounding Kaidou, its about how said event was executed, and what implications that carries. Applying sliders and modifiers of "it was X years ago" and "Oden was suggested to be Y strong" (which, I'm just saying, sounds kinda like power-levelly talk to me) can make the scene "make sense" rationally, but thats not what we're talking about here. You can't solve the problems many of us have with that scene with math.
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What does that have to do with anything?
Examples?
Glad you asked.
Quite simply, a time frame in which someone got massively stronger.Sure, lemme get on my laptop for easier copy/pasting.
Edit: Source #1, chapter 907
This is why it matters whether you're talking about the Kaido of 20 years ago who got slashed by a magical sword, which he's not impervious to since it's not a regular blade, rather than the Kaido of today who has been directly said to have gotten stronger over time.
Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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How else are you supposed to present your weekly hot-takes then?
Another power scaler is offended, not surprised.
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I was actually agreeing with you on that.
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@Daz:
When part of Kaidous introduction is literally "nothing can hurt this man, guillotine blades break on his neck and he laughs about it", combined with the whole unscathed from jumping from 10.000 meters thing, I think its fair to say that Kaidou was indeed pitched as tough and durable, including yes -explicitly - when faced with blades
It doesn't say nothing can hurt him, it says nothing can kill him. It also says during the same introduction that he's been tortured countless times. Unless they were torturing him by tickling, I think that implies that he can feel pain. The invulnerability to death is framed particularly around OP's methods of killing a person that we've seen in the series: Guillotine, hanging, and spear. So yeah, there's an implied toughness, but not invulnerability. I mean, he even gets a headache from the fall. We know he can be hurt and we have since the first chapter he was introduced.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why is it that Joy Boy and Daz are leaving out the 20 year gap between Oden v Kaido and the current storyline?
Are we really going to assume that Kaido didn't get stronger after Oden explicitly told him to get stronger?
Why would Oden tell Kaido to "never come back to Wano" if he was sure he was going to land a killing blow?
Is there proof that Kaido was even labeled as the strongest creature 20 years ago?
All it takes is rational thinking for these portrayal arguments to fall apart.
I think this misses the point they're trying to make: That Kaido's loss to Oden dampens how they perceive him, regardless. Not that it shouldn't have happened, but that it either should have been presented differently, or at a different time. I'm personally fine with it, but I understand the position.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Kucing:
Even if he is weaker, even if he didn't WSC 20 years ago, Kaido already had invicible body 20 years ago. So, when Oden can injure Kaido who supposed to have invicible body EFFORTLESSLY!!! Then there's a big chance he can kill him.
Big Mom has an invincible body. The same level of invincibility has never been shown for Kaido. I imagine he's much like Whitebeard.
Check out my podcast for conversations about Greatness in anime, sports, music, and whatever else we can think of.
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Btw, was Kaido a yonkou 20 years ago, I don't remember.
And I'm starting to think this is one of those discussions where neither "side" will convince the other that they're right.
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Discussions have no point if you’re not even slightly open to the idea of you not being correct. Also, I definitely understand getting heated about these things but there’s no reason to NOT be polite guys. We all love one piece here (I think)
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Well it is ambigious really. But i would be inclined to think it refers more to how they've grown into massive crews more than anything
I assume it's like with every other crew. They can't (usually) get stronger if the leader isn't getting stronger as well. There are exceptions (Buggy, Moria), but they're just that; exceptions.
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The amount of Bullshit being told by that JohnTnaig (dumb troll) and JoyBoy are one a different level
You're free to disagree on their opinions, but that doesn't mean you get to call whoever you like trolls. That behavior is not allowed. Use the report button if you think someone is trolling, but leave the insults out of it.
Like the Avatar? / Like the Miis?Dragalia Lost ID: 97617932505
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Yeah, Kaido is probably much stronger now, and it's explicitly stated that Oden was the one and only person to ever scar Kaido. But the problem is not really so much how strong Kaido is, but the fact that there was someone on this island that could have beaten him (And I'm not saying he would have definitely won if not for the hag, but it'd be disingenuous to argue that he didn't have at least a pretty solid shot at winning). It's like if Vivi's mom was the one to cut off Crocodile's hand but then some sidekick stabbed her in the back and killed her, and we got a flashback to that in the middle of Alabasta. Even if all else remained the same, including Crocodile's displays of power, it would have taken something away from the final showdown, don't you think? Because then it doesn't feel like Luffy is freeing the country from a threat that no one else could have.
Even when the citizens are capable of defending themselves like the minks, Oda still puts them in a situation where they're helpless and need to be saved by the strawhats (by the way, Jack in Zou is a perfect example of a bad guy winning a fight with dirty tricks and still coming out of it looking ridiculously strong). This has been pretty consistent in the story. Luffy wins fights for the sake of people who can't. That's his thing. So to now get that changed in Wano to 'win a fight in the name of this guy who maybe would, maybe wouldn't have, but definitely could have won under different circumstances' is pretty jarring.
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I put more stock in the fact that we haven't seen Kaido's two other forms than him being weaker 20 years ago.
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Well, I do agree the scene in the flashback makes Kaidou look slighty less threatning but I also play the headcannon game with the powerlevels and such.
So I think the scene made Kaidou look weaker but not that he's weak.And maybe that's Oda's plan.
We've been seeing cracks in Kaidou's armor. We saw Oden scar him and now Zoro has that sword, Luffy was training his haki to bypass the dragon scales, we saw the Scabbards surprising him. He looks beatable. But we haven't seen his middle form, we haven't seen his (and Yamato's) flashback that is clearly coming, we haven't seen him do much besides waving his club around and shooting a laserbeam in his dragon form. And once we've seen those things that certainty we have that Luffy can beat Kaidou by the end of the arc will fade again, and it will look impossible again and then Luffy/Oda is gonna surprise us with something even cooler. -
The bigger problem is that we never heard of Oden before Zou. If there had be some hints that there is another beast like Gold Roger or Whitebeard we would have no problem with him hurting Kaido.
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I feel Oda wrote himself into a corner with how he set Kaido up in his intro. He was explicitly told in the intro and by implied by another Yonko who also has a super tough body that he could not be killed. It was told that blades and spears shatter on impact. Then change that narrative into one in which a division commander of Yonko (who was not on the level of WB/Roger as was clearly shown) could wound him with not much difficulty is jarring. Then the main antagonist of this arc wins the fight by trickery and even 20 years later he could not escape that memory!!
From the feats shown so far, it looks like Big Mom has a tougher body than Kaido and now I wonder how that will be reconciled when Luffy defeats her.
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@candide
I don't think hearing about Oden before Zou would change anything. I don't even see the correlation really. Does it have to do with Kaido's intro right before Zou? He didn't defeat Kaido. He landed a blow. Does every antagonist have to be perfect before defeated? He was introduced as imperfect. If Rayleigh landed an attack or defeated Kaido, would it made more sense because of where Rayleigh was introduced?It seems like there is more comfort in learning of the imperfections after they are defeated. I've seen Teach get slapped around plenty of times and not only is he in my top 5 characters, he's a future immediate antagonist after being 1 before.
Not into changing minds, just want to understand because some of the alternatives aren't as good or better than what Oda wrote. If there's a better way to write this, then i'd understand the grievance more.
