Isn't finland part of the EU tho? Pushing against that would equate as an attack on the euro and that's a fundamental tenat of the EU/Nato.
Not that they shouldn't tho, putin clearly staying clear of direct confrontation with Nato shows that even he doesn't dare to go there (yet).
European Politics Thread
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What i'm curious about is how long Russias war chest could reasonably last.
600 billion sounds a lot on paper, but what does it amount to in practice
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@Lao:
Yeah I can’t believe this is happening. Woke up to find out my country’s officially gone fucking nuts and there’s no going back now. What’s more a big part of our population actually supports this and does not seem to understand what devastating consequences this will have on the country’s economy and general image. Fucking hell.
Take care of yourself too ok? If you know what I mean.
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Isn't finland part of the EU tho? Pushing against that would equate as an attack on the euro and that's a fundamental tenat of the EU/Nato.
Not that they shouldn't tho, putin clearly staying clear of direct confrontation with Nato shows that even he doesn't dare to go there (yet).EU and NATO are two organizations that operate in same space, while almost every EU member is also NATO member, Finland Sweden and few others are not. While EU does have some treaties that promise aid member states that are victim of outside aggression with economic and material aid it is NOT military alliance, NATO is. Since most EU members are also members of NATO they prefer make full use of NATO membership and they leave all military decisions to NATO treaties.
If Finland gets attacked by Putin it would be big deal EU wise since its direct member is under attack but no military intervention is required and even though Finland would receive all sympathies only economic and material aid is expected, going to war against Russia for non-NATO member is frankly not realistic from any european state. Sweden would most likely help as much they could but if Putin threatens direct war for Sweden intervention I don't think Sweden would or could do much.
This is why being NATO member is so damn important, there is no if's or but's but only certainty that no NATO member would ever has to stand alone.
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The only problem with NATO is if your predator is in it (see: Ireland and Cyprus not being NATO members).
But yeah if your predator is Russia? lol, come on in asap because jesus fucking christ. -
@Monkey:
The insane thing is Finland made out fine as neutral through the entire Cold War. Putin is essentially scarier than every Soviet leader post-Stalin.
We did not come out of it unscathed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
We retained independence but we were little better than vassal state during 70's and 80's. When USSR asked Finland's cold war president to jump he only asked how high? Finland's entire school system from 70's were full of soviet propaganda that painted USSR a dream state where people were happy and government benevolent, during 80's ruling party asked USSR to send diplomatic threats unless pro-russian politicians weren't elected. These had long standing effects on even modern day Finland, when USSR collapsed at 1991 it would been golden opportunity to join NATO but so great was anti-NATO statements in Finland's political sphere that it never materialized. Even today people and parties has been divided between pro NATO and staunch opposition who parrote those old Soviet propaganda statements that being NATO member is nothing but a slave for USA's imperirialism.
But I really hope that today has been SERIOUS wake up call, even most pro-russian politicians has openly condemned Russia's invasion. We can't stand alone with Putin as our neighbour. Not anymore.
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I am surprised how many of you are overreacting to this wow, honestly suprised
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NATO to Putin be like:
!
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I am surprised how many of you are overreacting to this wow, honestly suprised
I'm just going with the flow. And hey, can you honestly blame them. Overreaction, fearmongering, disinformation is par of the course when these things happen. What we should be doing rn is carry on with our lives.
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Why is Sweden not a part of NATO?
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@Johnny:
Why is Sweden not a part of NATO?
Sweden has been neutral country over 200 years.
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Yeah, but maybe it's time to rethink positions. Prevention is better than cure.
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I am surprised how many of you are overreacting to this wow, honestly suprised
turns out war is bad
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The bitterness of mediocre man in power always cause crisis.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No wonder he and Trump are such good friends.
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@Johnny:
Why is Sweden not a part of NATO?
Long run of really bad wars ending with losing half the kingdom and you sort of end up thinking hey maybe i should stick to not having any wars.
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What people here (Finland) mostly fear is that if we try to join to NATO, it would give Putin an perfect excuse to attack here. We still haven't forgotten the Winter War and people view joining to NATO as a gamble.
Pretty much every Finn has a (I would say) healthy mistrust of Russia. Especially Russia's leaders.
And we have a pretty good reason.
Me, personally? I would say NATO at this point. Let's gamble.
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I am surprised how many of you are overreacting to this wow, honestly suprised
Care to elaborate on that?
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Putin butt-kisser Trump called his actions "genius" and "savvy". Seriously, how much more under his thumb can this shithead be? At least Jen Psaki had a great statement:
https://www.comicsands.com/psaki-trump-praises-putin-ukraine-2656776996.html?fbclid=IwAR1EX5ekpNva5ZyhYd7YQBHFBJBiK7LeLae8VC2nI0a1Iowbf_ao6jX7W3w -
I have to say… I like Biden.
He has little political power due to the unfortunate theatrics of modern politics, and he's unlucky that fraction of his own party sucks, but I think he tends to make good decisions in general.
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Good luck to the innocent people of Ukraine.
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Speaking of Finland, we really could use another Simo Hayha right now.
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I am surprised how many of you are overreacting to this wow, honestly suprised
Is this sarcasm because lol
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Check their post story.
Btw, trump was wanking on putin earlier in the week before the attacks, did he said something today, after the attacks and declaration of war?
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I found this post on Reddit and thought to post it here. Just kind of reminder that this is about human mortality. People are dying and the things we take for granted are at risk or doomed to oblivion.
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Only silver linings about this whole thing is that it may push the EU to seriously invest in renewables and deals with other countries so they don't get their fuel/energy sources taken hostage.
I dunno how Germany became this dependent on Russian gas and coal. Shouldn't have shut down their nuclear plants.
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I can’t do the upper and lower case thing in mobile but:
“Because nuclear power is dangerous”, said the oil industry (and the two nuclear power plant disasters of the last 100 years)
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A claim has been made that a Russian platoon surrendered because they "Did not realize that they had sent there to kill Ukrainians". I would so dearly like to believe it to be true. But it sounds a little too perfect
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You mean that Ukraine is filled with Ukranian people instead of Nazi hordes?
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A claim has been made that a Russian platoon surrendered because they "Did not realize that they had sent there to kill Ukrainians". I would so dearly like to believe it to be true. But it sounds a little too perfect
Well, it makes sense in a way.
Russians and ukrainians are like brothers, and Putin's propaganda is full of bullshit that's not true. So the soldiers went there thinking they'd kill nazis and only found ukrainians, their brothers. It's not unthinkable that some soldiers would like to surrender.
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Well, it makes sense in a way.
Russians and ukrainians are like brothers, and Putin's propaganda is full of bullshit that's not true. So the soldiers went there thinking they'd kill nazis and only found ukrainians, their brothers. It's not unthinkable that some soldiers would like to surrender.
Nah. They most likely thought Putin was bluffing all along.
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Nah. They most likely thought Putin was bluffing all along.
There are too much logistics involved moving troops and weapons for the soldiers to think it's a bluff. Besides all the talk from superiors preparing them.
It's easier to believe they're not happy with the war. Or they didn't expect to be met with resistance from the ukrainian army.
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Maybe it's only in this video, but it looks like the police are breaking up the protests more peacefully than they would here in the US.
But I'm so happy to see the Russian people not bowing to Putin. I just hope they stay okay.
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Well, it makes sense in a way.
Russians and ukrainians are like brothers, and Putin's propaganda is full of bullshit that's not true. So the soldiers went there thinking they'd kill nazis and only found ukrainians, their brothers. It's not unthinkable that some soldiers would like to surrender.
Yeah this is roughly equivalent for Americans to being sent into Canada to destroy and invade.
I don't think the otherization of war should be downplayed, how much easier it might be to invade Iraq/Syria or what have you mentally (and yes, racism/xenophobia is definitely at play in this, just throwing that out there) for Americans or Russians.
To be sent into a place where they are culturally extremely close, speak a very similar (or same) language, where even the basic fucking architecture and landscape will look like home?
That will have an effect. I think even beyond that it's already causing so many Russians to just be horrified/bamboozled by this whole thing.Again, Americans, imagine, fucking invading, Canada.
English people, imagine being sent into Scotland.
French people, imagine being sent into Belgium.
Swedes, imagine invading Norway or Denmark. -
What Putin is trying to do is to beat the ukrainian government without much bloodshed, only tactical victories (against military bases, controlling the Kyiv, etc) until they surrender, so the russians can put their our puppet there as President.
So I really wonder what will happen if the ukrainians put up a real resistance to the russian army. This can backfire immensely on Putin. And I really want to see more protests in Russia as this unfolds.
As a dictator, Putin has a lot of leverage to make rough decisions like this war without losing his seat at the throne, but he may be burning his 'lives'.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Btw, there's so much right-wing stuff on Twitter getting a lot of spotlight on the platform. It's vomit inducing...
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@Monkey:
English people, imagine being sent into Scotland.
French people, imagine being sent into Belgium.
Swedes, imagine invading Norway or Denmark.In modern times, yeah that would be hard to imagine.
In historical perspective? Hah. Sabaton might have lyrics to some of those instances. It's not every time that cultural/ethnic similarity push the breaks on a conflict, or we might never had civil wars :ninja:. -
In modern times, yeah that would be hard to imagine.
In historical perspective? Hah.In terms of the English and Scots, that makes me think of Iron Maiden's "The Clansman".
Is it right to believe
In the need to be free
It's a time when you die
And without asking whyCan't you see what they do
They are grinding us down
They are taking our land
That belongs to the clansNot alone with a dream
Just a want to be free
With a need to belong
I am a clansman -
What Putin is trying to do is to beat the ukrainian government without much bloodshed, only tactical victories (against military bases, controlling the Kyiv, etc) until they surrender, so the russians can put their our puppet there as President.
So I really wonder what will happen if the ukrainians put up a real resistance to the russian army. This can backfire immensely on Putin. And I really want to see more protests in Russia as this unfolds.
As a dictator, Putin has a lot of leverage to make rough decisions like this war without losing his seat at the throne, but he may be burning his 'lives'.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Btw, there's so much right-wing stuff on Twitter getting a lot of spotlight on the platform. It's vomit inducing...
Putin assuming this just ends with Kiev is uh… nearly identical to what Napoleon thought about Moscow.
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I was gonna say, pretty sure England and Scotland fought a lot . . .
America and Canada though? We've argued a bunch, especially over borders, but the only time we ever really fought was the War of 1812.
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@Monkey:
Putin assuming this just ends with Kiev is uh… nearly identical to what Napoleon thought about Moscow.
Well, I was conjecturing, of course.
But maybe Puting has reasons to believe in surrender because… well, wars nowadays are much more terrifying, and leaders can make much more powerful threats, and there are almost no physical distances at all. So surrendering nowadays must be much more sensible than in the past once you feel cornered or lost.
What Putin might have understimated is Ukraine's spirit and ability to put a defense. But it's difficult to know what's fake news and what's not right now.
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Beau is always a voice of reason.
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They finally made a statement. Been waiting to hear from the Taliban on this
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"Dialogue and Peaceful Means". Not something you associate with the Taliban.
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Ty Taliban
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Germany is holding up the action on nuking russias payment systems i see.
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They finally made a statement. Been waiting to hear from the Taliban on this
https://i.imgur.com/g7m4yJe.jpgOh look at that the Taliban is trying to act like a real government how cute.
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Ursula von der Leyen declared that the Ukrainian refugees are "welcome". Let's see how the governments of each countries react to that… IIRC, the same thing was said about the Afghans (by von der Leyen).
Also, I wonder how the 100k Ukrainians (more like millions imo) driving away from Putin's bs have crossed the frontiers while normally people are usually getting stomped for doing so.
Ukraine isn't part of Schengen.I mean, hopefully they all get safe. But I feel some hypocrisy there. Of course, it's been a while since there was a war at Europe's frontier, so maybe legally that changes everything. Don't know enough about that. But even then, if I'm not mistaken, legally speaking, governments have to recognize that such country is at war in order to welcome their refugees.
Looking forward to how NATO and all the others will react...
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I'd wager that there is more good will in bordering countries for someone fleeing from what you essentially fear may happen to yourself
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I know Hungary is (thankfully) prepared for the insurge of refugees, especially since there are lot of Hungarians among them. It helps that they're white as well, which makes them instantly not "invading migrants"…
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It seems that Xi is asking Putin to find a diplomatic solution for it, and he will comply. Because one thing is face sanctions backed by China, another face them alone.