Hopefully we get a flashback of how things transpired during the theft of the Gum Gum Fruit.
Similar to Baby 5 and Señor Pink tiny flashbacks.
Hopefully we get a flashback of how things transpired during the theft of the Gum Gum Fruit.
Similar to Baby 5 and Señor Pink tiny flashbacks.
Of course not. It's just weird that folks are getting upset now, this time, when similar situations haven't before. Not all applications are handled equally well, but to act like this one thing is story breaking is weird.
This is quite easily the most blatantly convenient "this specific plot key fits into this specific plot keyhole" tension breaker, ever in this manga.
This case is extra weird because it was obvious 10 years ago Oda was going to do some Momotaro shenanigans, and really obvious three years ago when we first met Tama.
If you don't like it personally that's fine, but its really really weird to me that people are acting like this came out of nowhere or that its magnititudes out of line compared to the help they've gotten before.
…is this a western thing where we didn't grow up with the tale of Momotaro so all the stuff is just weird and out of place to us, while its perfectly natural to the Japanese readers?
Like if Oda incorporated a Cinderella motif we wouldn't blink at a glass slipper being introduced despite it making no sense? So to us feeding an animal a treat and taming them is just belief breaking and unreasonable??
Well let's see.
(Please don’t take the snark personally, I’m just having fun)
We arrive in punk hazard. We meet a prince called Wolfnosuke. Evil scientist in punk hazard creates artificial versions of Hawkins' straw fruit. Kaido uses them to create Supersoldiers with these straw fruits, which is depicted as a big deal. Whoa, not only is Kaido insanely strong, but he already has 500 of these supersoldiers? I wonder how, in this future arc, will our heroes overcome this extra obstacle on top Kaido's strength? A little seed for building up tension is planted. The rest is the same. This plot point is still the entire thing that connects PH to Kaido. Stopping the production of these straw fruits is what the heroes' entire plan builds on.
ALMOST A DECADE LATER we finally arrive at the arc where we face off against Kaido and his army of strawman supersoldiers. The very first fricking thing that happens in the arc, is Luffy just so happens to bump into a girl who somehow found the wolf-wolf fruit on this very same island and if she blows on things made of straw they instantly turn into harmless piglets. Wow. Genius writing right here.
Duh, obviously I should have known that the boy that was introduced a decade ago who had 'Wolf' in his name, was obviously going to hint at the whole plot point being moot because another character a decade later would have a specific power that nullifies straw people. The admirals strawhouse, twighouse and brickhouse are sure to arrive on this future arc against Kaido. What, they don't? Curious.
Then the climax of the arc is here. The straw supersoldiers are not a lethal threat to our strongest heroes, but are still a very important factor. Even those strongest of the heroes comment on how much of a drain on their stamina they are. We are outright told that the war is unwinnable, the enemy has just too many and too high-quality troops. The heroes are screwed.
Egads! What is this feeling? Is it…. tension?
The very next chapter, the girl breathes into a whole bunch of jars. Nami and Usopp take all these jars and gleefully open them over the Straw supersoldiers, instantly nullifying them, basically wiping their free will and personalities. By turning them into piglets. (It's still not even as overpowered as wololoing those straw supersoldiers to fight on your side)
And because this was such riveting storytelling, this same plot beat needs to happen again 13 chapters later.
At the end of the arc, there is a feast. Thankfully for our heroes there are a whole bunch of piglets around to slaughter and eat.
I bet the theft of the Gum Gum fruit is what Oda had in mind when he said a 'red-hair' was going to do something xD.
The whole how can you be mad at Tama when there have been other conveniences before sounds a lot like the whole how can you be mad at this new special thing about Luffy when there were so many before. Pointing out something considered a flaw existed before doesnt make it not a flaw.
He does it most of the time on his website, oftenly throwing subtly hints with pop culture of the 80's or 90's, lmao.
I actually find it rare that he now did it here.
Well maybe I should ask more directly. Why are he and others even doing such stuff instead of posting what they know. Is there more to it, that they don't do it?
Well maybe I should ask more directly. Why are he and others even doing such stuff instead of posting what they know. Is there more to it, that they don't do it?
There's some kind of Japanese Gestapo that hunts down internet spoiler providers.
We had a guy around here(I forgot his nickname) that had earlier access to chapters too, and he'd only say stuff like 'yeah the chapter will explain this or that'
And I'm pretty sure that guy also learnt to fear the Japanese Gestapo.
Why is Tama taming gifters/smile users with her ability even a topic to argue about?
She was literally introduced in the first chapter of the arc for this sole purpose.
Why is it a problem? The entirety of the series has had characters like this.. Which have been pointed out numerous times.
The allies have have been, and still are out numbered, it takes no tension away from the over all stakes.
An entire island is about to drop on Wano and potentially massacre the population..
A few fodder characters to help turn the tides and help out the crew so they can 1v1 the officers is not a big deal..
Is that not what we all want to see anyway?You're upset and arguing over personally preferences on how you'd like the story written.
To the Pirates an WG outside of Wano, who will likely never reach or try to enter Wano, those gifters are a main force to be feared.. An army of hundreds of fruit users backed by thousands of foot soldiers.
And, they still are/have been for years in Wano up till this point. I don't see the issue.
Did you expect an 8 year old to travel Wano and tame them all before hand? Or think Hitetsu would let her before all this happened?
Law didn't know she existed when he formulated the plan, or had even been to Wano yet.
People need things to complain about so they can say Oda isn't a good writer anymore.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Very interesting. Was there a panel where it was stated it was haki? Even the poison thing is haki??
kind of odd that other super haki users like vergo couldn't do it. Lol, if you can get superpowers with haki, why even look for a fruit.
But no need to get into a lengthy haki discussion.
Not a lengthy discussion but the short and simple answer is haki runs out while devil fruit powers are always on/can be turned on barring seastone or sea submersion. You could also speculate using haki to constantly generate some element or energy would make it run out even faster than just use of armament and observation.
First they are clones. The fact that they all look like the same means this is similar to judge's clone thing.
I thought at some point it was specifically said the pacifistas are a bunch of corpses and/or former prisoners converted in to cyborgs and purposely made to look identical to Kuma. Not clones.
I figured Vegapunk and the WG/Marines agreed Kuma is a good symbol of fear which is why all pacifistas look like him and so many of them would be confusing unless you actually knew the man so you'd know which is the actual real thing (basically knowing he had the paw paw ability).
But I am sure Kuma's DNA was used to make all the pacifistas look like him and have his build.
Now, I wonder, what made Kuma so special? Why was he the only one that could be used. Surely the Marines would have jumped at the chance to turn their Giant division into pacifista. Can you imagine how fearsome giant pacifistas would be?
From my recollection, Kuma isn't especially special. He simply was the guinea pig cuz he volunteered based off w/e deal he made with Vegapunk and/or the WG. I'm sure they would've welcomed Jimbe or Mihawk agreeing to pacification.
It's yet to be revealed but I'm sure Vegapunk but I bet he was able to use some of the paw paw abilities for something else.
Actually, have we ever been told who exactly Judge is cloning for his expendable clone army?
Nope. Must be a sturdy reliable fellow though or its possible there's a mix of several ppl to clone from to make the most dependable clones.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
This is quite easily the most blatantly convenient "this specific plot key fits into this specific plot keyhole" tension breaker, ever in this manga.
Well let's see.
(Please don’t take the snark personally, I’m just having fun)We arrive in punk hazard. We meet a prince called Wolfnosuke. Evil scientist in punk hazard creates artificial versions of Hawkins' straw fruit. Kaido uses them to create Supersoldiers with these straw fruits, which is depicted as a big deal. Whoa, not only is Kaido insanely strong, but he already has 500 of these supersoldiers? I wonder how, in this future arc, will our heroes overcome this extra obstacle on top Kaido's strength? A little seed for building up tension is planted. The rest is the same. This plot point is still the entire thing that connects PH to Kaido. Stopping the production of these straw fruits is what the heroes' entire plan builds on.
ALMOST A DECADE LATER we finally arrive at the arc where we face off against Kaido and his army of strawman supersoldiers. The very first fricking thing that happens in the arc, is Luffy just so happens to bump into a girl who somehow found the wolf-wolf fruit on this very same island and if she blows on things made of straw they instantly turn into harmless piglets. Wow. Genius writing right here.Duh, obviously I should have known that the boy that was introduced a decade ago who had 'Wolf' in his name, was obviously going to hint at the whole plot point being moot because another character a decade later would have a specific power that nullifies straw people. The admirals strawhouse, twighouse and brickhouse are sure to arrive on this future arc against Kaido. What, they don't? Curious.
Then the climax of the arc is here. The straw supersoldiers are not a lethal threat to our strongest heroes, but are still a very important factor. Even those strongest of the heroes comment on how much of a drain on their stamina they are. We are outright told that the war is unwinnable, the enemy has just too many and too high-quality troops. The heroes are screwed.
Egads! What is this feeling? Is it…. tension?
The very next chapter, the girl breathes into a whole bunch of jars. Nami and Usopp take all these jars and gleefully open them over the Straw supersoldiers, instantly nullifying them, basically wiping their free will and personalities. By turning them into piglets. (It's still not even as overpowered as wololoing those straw supersoldiers to fight on your side)
And because this was such riveting storytelling, this same plot beat needs to happen again 13 chapters later.
Wait what?
You completely lost me with this straw super soldiers turned in to piglets.
At least the story Oda is hosting/riffing from has a direct mirror of ability, story twist, and outcome. The breath of a wolf zoan DF changing straw men in to piglets? Don't know what kind of children's story about the 3 little pigs you read growing up but this is a crazy stretch.
Also, in your version the wolf is on the good guy's side? LOL. Eating all the piglets after the fight during the party?!
Now I see why you guys are complaining so much about Tama and this story reference. You all think those story beats are as bad as what you came up with.
To those "Tama is wrong for using her power like this! It's basically slavery!" people. When she was first introduced, members of the Beast Pirates were literally going to sell an eight year old into actual sexual slavery. Among other multiple crimes to the people of Wano for over 20 years. They've earned it.
So, the official release thread has gone in more of a Tama complaint direction, but after flipping through the early pages of the spoiler thread and seeing all the surprisingly negative reactions to the last reveal I had a lot of thoughts and feelings. And I kinda spent a bit of time jotting them down in a notepad file before I saw this thread going another way and I don't want to let that writing go to waste. So screw it, at the risk of reopening a whole can of worms, here's those harsh early pages of the thread had me thinking.
On Criticism
It's one thing to criticise the series (I had a lot to say about Nami and Ulti last week) or to have a bad feeling about a new development (I expressed some concern about Toki's time powers in the weeks between learning that they exist and learning how they actually work) but it feels like some people are literally waiting for the series to go bad so they can say "I knew it!" and "I told you so!" They're not even waiting for anything to actually be mishandled before they say it, the idea of something that could be badly handled in the future seems to be enough. And making that judgement not from the chapter but a barebones spoiler summary to boot.
One Piece has changed a lot since it started and Oda shifted what he wanted as the decades have worn on. For some fans, that means the things that drew them in originally have been shortchanged to focus on other things (like shift from a Strawhat crew-centred story to a more geopoltical and ensemble cast one). For others, the change means not-to-taste things that were subtle enough to be tolerable in the early years have become more and more prominent (like talk of destiny). I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong to voice concern about that kind of thing, but I'll maintain to my death that a change in focus (even if it's to things that aren't as interesting to you) isn't the same as an objective decline in quality.
Some people really do post like they're only sticking around because they think the shift away from their tastes will lead to everything else turning to cliche and awfulness, and want to be validated by seeing it happen. I mean fine, you can enjoy whatever media in whichever way you want, but I don't get it.
I'm always happiest when I'm putting my time and energy into things I enjoy and expect to continue enjoying. Just saying.
Luffy is a Special Guy
There's plenty of good reasons the Gum Gum Fruit could have been under guard. From the much-theorised Dark Dark switcheroo to symbols of ancient figures to a Celestial Dragon setting their eye on it for entertainment purposes to the World Government just being more interested in securing fruits than we thought. But suppose the Gum Gum really is something unique and special? Would that be so bad?
People talk about this kind of thing like being an underdog who came from nothing is an essential part of Luffy's character. But I kinda disagree This may be a hot take, but Luffy didn't feel like an underdog in any of his fights until he faced Crocodile. Oh, he was an unknown who got underestimated, but it was always made clear that once he got around the enemy's gimmick strategy, Luffy was an overwhelming powerhouse who couldn't be beat in a brawl. Arlong may have matched him for strength, but even he had more luck tossing Luffy in the ocean than trying to push through his physical endurance. East Blue and early-Grand Line Luffy was a big fish in a small pond who had to be consistently stuck in rocks, trapped under fallen figureheads, eaten by snakes and hypnotised to keep him from rushing in and ending the fight in the first five minutes.
And then there's his destiny.
It's been 22 years since Luffy was literally deus ex machina'd out of a tight spot by a lightning strike that may or may not have been his dad's doing, prompting questions of inhuman luck and higher powers from observers. It's been 21 years since the Will of the D was established. We've known for about 15 years now that Luffy's father and grandfather are both important, powerful people. At the same time, we learned that Luffy's mentor figure wasn't just some random pirate with a good attitude, he's actually one of the biggest pirating names in the world. 13 years age we learned that Luffy has a one in a million kind of haki, and a year later we found out his sworn brother is the son of the Pirate King. That same year, comments were made about Luffy's inexplicable and highly dangerous ability to draw people in and make them allies (despite his lack of any kind of conventional social or diplomatic skill). We learn Roger was waiting for a specific person for his legacy, and then Luffy's hat turned out to be Roger's hat 11 years ago. The Voice of All Things was clearly established as something Luffy had 10 years ago. It's been 3 years since we learned the hat was important to the World Government too. Whoop Slap seems to be a nobody with connections to nothing, but even he's developed an old man sense of people with destinies. Maybe you don't like it, but you've had a long time to make peace with it.
And, you know, "inherited will" has always been one of the most important themes of this story. It's one thing for it to pass directly between two characters that knew each other, but when you have to make that kind of thing work across generations, between characters who never even met, it shouldn't be a shock when it results in blatant parellels and the inheriting characters taking up mantles and symbols, sometimes without even knowing they're doing it.
On Destiny Tropes
Writing chosen one and destiny tropes is a delicate thing. Done wrong, they certainly can suck a lot of tension out of a story. Even done right, lots of people have knee-jerk reactions to them.
But look, the main character needs to be the main character for a reason. The writer has to look at their protagonist and really attack the question of why, out of the billions of people in the world now and trillions who've inhabited it through history, is this guy the one we're following? Why does the story hinge on this person?
In a long-running series like One Piece (and so many other action/adventure fantasies) you're going to have to put your main character through a lot and be constantly upping the stakes. Lifechanging and worldchanging events that would be once in a lifetime for anyone else are going to be happening to the long-running narrative protagonist with alarming regularity.
And when your main character is just lucky/unlucky enough to keep stumbling through the heart of world-shaking events and escaping dead end scenarios with less than 1% chance of survival time and time again, people complain about convenience, coincidence and contrivance always placing them in the middle of things and giving them what they need to barely scrape through every time. And in the process of getting out of these things alive, your hero is going to be doing things that no one's ever done before, overcoming monsters no one ever tweaked the nose of and lived and figuring out new skills or combinations of techniques no one figured out before. A feeling of plot armour is almost impossible to escape after a point.
So when the events and survivals and skills build up to a monolith of a hero, central to their worlds politics and lore and people are pointing out how unfair that is, the author either has to throw their hands up and go "of course it's that way, it's why they're the main character" or they agree that things liked that don't just happen on their own after all. Good of you to notice. It's actually all connected and always has been. There were domino chains set in motion either by where, when and how the hero was born or at through how they got the adventure started that made it inevitable they would be central to so many conflicts and connected to so many important people.
But now your hero's a chosen one, and that's no good either. Whoops.
But main characters almost have to be special. They have the right unique skill, the right mindset, the right luck, stand in the right place at the right time. The more time you spend developing an everyman, the more specific parts of his life story you have to fill in, the less every he can be.
If your protagonist isn't the only one who can save/fix/change the world, then who is and why aren't we focusing on them? There's some wriggle room on that point for lower stakes dramas/sitcoms/romances and whatever, but when you get into action/adventure territory and especially as fuck when you write fantasy, the escalating stakes are almost guaranteed to make the hero into a mythic figure one way or another just through their ability to keep getting involved in important events and surviving.
But it's not that bad, is it? There's a still difference between word of god saying "the hero literally cannot lose because what is destined must come to pass" and the story being "the hero, because of his unique circumstances and skills, is the only one who can do the important thing, and the thing cannot happen if he fails or choses not to do it." You can make your hero special or chosen without taking away their choices and ability to fail. I think One Piece is still firmly in that positive territory. Maybe Luffy is the only person who can bring about the Dawn and be Joyboy or whatever, but that just means if he dies the Dawn doesn't happen. Or it can't happen for another few centuries until circumstances line up to make another person who can do it.
And all of that's fine with me. Luffy hasn't changed as a person from learning who his parents were, or that his haki is super rare. Those are factors for the lore and worldbuilding, but the main character doesn't give a shit, and remains above them.
Tales of Chosen Ones
People really latch onto the vaguest feeling of predestination or unique power as something that ruins a story, but I think it's actually pretty dang rare for that kind of thing to be the deciding factor.
For example, I don't remember my readthrough of Naruto especially well, but was the series ruined by its eponymous character turning out to have some super important ancestory, or was it ruined by ongoing melodrama, an increasing focus on convoluted magic eyeball abilities and a protracted, slow-paced war arc the worldbuildng and cast weren't developed enough to support? When I reflect on the series and why I didn't personally vibe with it, there's a million more important things that pop us as flaws before I get to Naruto himself actually being a little too special.
Christ, there's people out there who act like there's some kind of nostalgia for the days when My Hero Academia was about a hardworking underdog trying to make it in a world where he's the only one not special, like Deku's arc was ruined when he was gifted the strongest Quirk in the world… at the end of chapter one.
I get having tropes you don't like, but it's still worth taking a little longer to look at how and why an idea's being used before you make it the end of the world. And if the main character getting too special is such a dealbreaker, I dunno, long-running serialised fiction might not be for you, because the more plot threads and events you have to tie together, the greater the chance of the protagonist's origns being tied in with the rest, or them turning out to be somehow special to justify them being the centre of all of it.
As a couterpoint to my own words, there's one recent story I thought was significantly hurt by its use of this kind of trope. And it wasn't when the protagonist's family was revealed to be important people with world-shaking secrets, or when he developed powers that no one else had or rapdily became good enough at a series-defining skill to keep up with veterans twice his age. It was only when the idea of predestination took away his choice that it damaged the story. (Among other unrelated problems the series had, anyway...) Attack on Titan spoilers under the cut.
! We learn at the end of the story that Eren saw his future about halfway through the series and spent the rest of it just playing out the actions he saw himself take, unable to deviate, which was a garbage twist to end on. Eren doesn't react to or fight his apocalyptic destiny in any obvious way, he just closes himself off and pushes through it because he knows he can't change it.
! Before the last chapter Attack on Titan had done something really interesting by building up the protagonist with an us-vs-them, kill-em-all mentality by making his first enemies - the massive hoard of mindless giant zombies - an acceptable thing to be genocidal about. Then then the series flipped the script, revealing there were real humans on the other side of the conflict. This turned Eren into a villain protagonist and the final boss for his former friends when he took the genocide philosophy he made for the titans and pointed it at other humans, not updating his way of thinking for the new conflict. I thought pulling the rug out from under the protagonist like that was super compelling and thematically rich.
! But Iseyama blew it by taking Eren's agency out of the equation. The series has nothing to say about the dangers of dehumanising your enemies, desensitising yourself to the idea of slaughter and failing to adapt your worldview if Eren didn't get to actually do those things. If he's not making choices, there's little to nothing of value to be read into his actions.
! This wasn't even an ancient prophecy chosen one type of destiny trope, just a few years worth of causality-mandated actions, but it managed to do the worst thing a destiny trope can: it put the protagonist on rails and switched his brain off, retroactively tearing down the most interesting parts of the series' later arcs.
That's how you break a story by setting the hero on a causality-mandated path. But is anyone really predicting One Piece pulling that kind of stunt? Do we think, that when Luffy learns what Joyboy's will is, he'll follow it for no better reason than "the future said I would" or "I have no choice because my background set me up for this"? Hell no.
I think the tldr points are these:
Major characters developing unique backgrounds or special innate abilities becomes almost inevitable as a story gets longer.
Similarly the protagonist will probably eventually become the only person in the world capable of resolving the plot, thanks to both their own actions and their expanding background/abilities, that's why they're the protagonist.
This isn't a problem until destined events and roles pile up to the point where it robs the protagonist of their agency and ability to make choices that imact the story at all.
Luffy's always was and has always been intended as a pretty special guy and it boggles my mind that some people are still having such an extreme reaction to that idea, or just the idea that the Gum Gum Fruit might be part of it too.
There's some kind of Japanese Gestapo that hunts down internet spoiler providers.
We had a guy around here(I forgot his nickname) that had earlier access to chapters too, and he'd only say stuff like 'yeah the chapter will explain this or that'
And I'm pretty sure that guy also learnt to fear the Japanese Gestapo.
But in some hours we will get a full spoiler by him..
It feels weird seeing people plead for the Gomu fruit to be a “normal Devil Fruit.” Seeing as how Devil Fruits aren’t exactly normal to begin with, I think it has been well established by now that Luffy has helped demonstrate that the fruit is anything but normal at this point. lol
Actually thats what some of these complainers deserve lol. One Piece should have a straight up predestined determinism ending embraced by Luffy. They'd be crying about it for decades.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It feels weird seeing people plead for the Gomu fruit to be a “normal Devil Fruit.” Seeing as how Devil Fruits aren’t exactly normal to begin with, I think it has been well established by now that Luffy has helped demonstrate that the fruit is anything but normal at this point. lol
I mean its really no different than any other.
If anything Luffy has demonstrated he is anything but normal. It was his creativity and effort that led to the advancements he made with his ability and the story is told in such a way about Luffy that he would've found a way to do this if he ate a goat zoan or sand logia or chop chop paramecia DF or if he had no devil fruit at all. This idea that everything Luffy has done was pointing to the rubber DF being special and not him bringing out the best in It is weird.
Its not like the DF whispered to him as he slept how to do the gears and how to incorporate haki in to them. Luffy isn't Deku from My Hero. The past rubber DF users aren't force ghost training him how to use it and unlocking new rubber techniques as he grows.
I mean between prophecized second coming, the family with great purpoe and the natural power to rule. I would just find the determinism talk to be stating the obvious.
@Joy:
Tama is still the worst thing in the series.
Loved Queen and Who's Who parts.
Based on your expertise, how do you want 5,400 samurai and minks to defeat 30,000 Kadio forces?
But in some hours we will get a full spoiler by him..
@Zik:
Actually thats what some of these complainers deserve lol. One Piece should have a straight up predestined determinism ending embraced by Luffy. They'd be crying about it for decades.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I mean its really no different than any other.
If anything Luffy has demonstrated he is anything but normal. It was his creativity and effort that led to the advancements he made with his ability and the story is told in such a way about Luffy that he would've found a way to do this if he ate a goat zoan or sand logia or chop chop paramecia DF or if he had no devil fruit at all. This idea that everything Luffy has done was pointing to the rubber DF being special and not him bringing out the best in It is weird.
Its not like the DF whispered to him as he slept how to do the gears and how to incorporate haki in to them. Luffy isn't Deku from My Hero. The past rubber DF users aren't force ghost training him how to use it and unlocking new rubber techniques as he grows.
No matter what happens, I really don’t think Oda would spend over 1,000 chapters showing the blood, sweat, and tears Luffy went through in fighting and bettering his skills with the fruit only for us to come to the realization that he only has credit and worth because previous users gave him that instead of achieving it on his own. He didn’t train for two years for nothing after all, and will still be training in building himself up with his own strength he can be glad about.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Based on your expertise, how do you want 5,400 samurai and minks to defeat 30,000 Kadio forces?
I suspect Jinbe, Franky, and the others have received quite a number of accusations that they were portrayed as too weak and that they could have easily taken out all the subordinates while holding off the Flying Six, since the subordinates aren’t like Zoro, Sanji, or Admirals, and that the cannon fodder subordinates are worthless fighters like how Usopp is a worthless fighter. Based on that, I imagine they’d also reason that Tama shouldn’t have been necessary in the first place.
I suspect Jinbe, Franky, and the others have received quite a number of accusations that they were portrayed as too weak and that they could have easily taken out all the subordinates while holding off the Flying Six, since the subordinates aren’t like Zoro, Sanji, or Admirals, and that the cannon fodder subordinates are worthless fighters like how Usopp is a worthless fighter. Based on that, I imagine they’d also reason that Tama shouldn’t have been necessary in the first place.
Are you for real? Please tell me you are joking. Franky and Jimbe to take them out? The gifters are not trash like Enies Lobby trash. Kaido spent years building his army. Most of the samurai have been in prison for years, weak and malnourished.
Are you for real? Please tell me you are joking. Franky and Jimbe to take them out? The gifters are not trash like Enies Lobby trash. Kaido spent years building his army. Most of the samurai have been in prison for years, weak and malnourished.
Nope. You’d be surprised at how much scrutiny one can see being directed towards fighters simply for not being at a certain level, and how one sees characters like Zoro praised up by bringing other characters down. Kaido indeed spent years building up an army. An army largely made up of fighters and gifters that I’ve seen described as worthless waste of time that isn’t worth worrying about because they’re not on par with Commanders or Admirals, regardless of how many there are.
But in some hours we will get a full spoiler by him..
Yea, but he always waits until the Korean/Japanese take the risk first.
Well, the problem is this is a shonen might-makes-right world. The physically weak can only be saved from the strong by the strong. To find out where laugh tale is, you need the poneglyphs. To get those, you need to beat the emperors. Who have CoC and will beat your ass if you don't have it. You can sneak in and steal rubbings, but again, being an opportunist coward is depicted as a bad thing in this shonen story. Even if you as a weakling find the One Piece, you have a big target painted on your back and every pirate will try to raid you (or will already have raided you long ago). You have to be stronger than every other pirate crew to become pirate king, that's how the story seems to depict it.
The story never depict it that way because roger who become PK had equals .
Yes you have to be a certain level of power but you can still steal them which both luffy and roger did and even get help even fights .
Remember Roger became PK because he get to the last island that was the main thing .
You have Kaido who is the WSC and WB who was the world strongest man and none of them were \are call PK.
There's an argument that the separate titles could make them equals. I think that's how the emperor titles even came to be.
Cuz Whitebeard had absolutely no desire to be pirate king. He had his family and he was free to do whatever he wanted.
You put Teach on a different emperor's crew to find that darkness DF and WB probably still doesn't make a move.
This is quite easily the most blatantly convenient "this specific plot key fits into this specific plot keyhole" tension breaker, ever in this manga.
Well let's see.
It's not. It's really not.
They ALWAYS get an assist that takes care of a aspect of the threat. This is no different than Brook knowing Moria's zombies were weak to salt and giving them a way to deal with an otherwise impossible threat. Or dwarves knowing about Sugar. Or Bon knowing about a long lost secret miracle healer.
If you feel the way it was handled was off, that's legitimate. But it was set up way in advance, and nearly a full year was spent getting Tama in place.
It's not cheap or a deus ex machina. It's not the most broken or convenient thing to ever happen. Nor is it wrecking anything.
The samurai have been fighting them and holding them off in the background for a year. The drama of that has been done and played and not a whole lot has been made from it. If you were hoping ten years ago that you were going to see a huge army fighting a big army of beast guys? You have gotten exactly that. What more do you want from that? Full chapters of nothing but soldier A fighting soldier B?
What exactly were you expecting that we haven't already seen? What was explicitly promised that wasn't delivered? How do you want 5000 samurai to defeat 30,000 mooks, that they hadn't already been doing?
Tama got a few hundred fighters to switch sides. So did Chopper! That's enough to allow a turnaround and give the heroes a second wind. She did not single handedly win the battle.
Was Chopper supposed to win over all of them with his kindness? Or is it okay that he only did some of them?
The tension is SUPPOSED to break, this is the climax, they're starting to win. This is when the various threats fall one by one, until the one last big threat kicks in.
The other top officers are going to fall over the next couple months, then the tension points are going to be Big Mom, Kaidou, and the Island crashing. It'd be bad if we were still worrying about background mook 7,892 at that point.
Major characters developing unique backgrounds or special innate abilities becomes almost inevitable as a story gets longer.
Similarly the protagonist will probably eventually become the only person in the world capable of resolving the plot, thanks to both their own actions and their expanding background/abilities, that's why they're the protagonist.
This isn't a problem until destined events and roles pile up to the point where it robs the protagonist of their agency and ability to make choices that imact the story at all.
Luffy's always was and has always been intended as a pretty special guy and it boggles my mind that some people are still having such an extreme reaction to that idea, or just the idea that the Gum Gum Fruit might be part of it too.
"developing" and "innate" are mutually exclusive terms.
Here actually lies a fundamental point of my (and i believe most of the other similar) criticism: Oda's expanding on the backround of the protagonist, instead of his story, like he's retroactively adding chapter -1, -2,- 3… instead on exanding on the consequences of what happened in hapter 1, 2 3... .
The premise should remain intact, while the themes and events of the story are developed based on what we see int he story itself. This is what it should happen as the story gets longer.
Also, it doesn't have to come to determinism directly robbing the charachter's agency. at this point, every Luffy achievement ends up undermined by later revelations that usually amount to
1)It was foretold
2)Roger did it
Those both bring the reader to the realisation that there wasn't any other road Luffy could have gone down to reach is goal, and none other than Luffy could reach that goal anyway. It doesn't matter hw unpredictable and outlandish he may look or sound. He's just following some wacky railroads, but railroads nonetheless.
I guess some people can still enjoy this kind of story… somehow.
And the gom gom being part of this is not a wild guess based on a vague sentence in this chapter.
In this very arc Oda went to incredible lengths to remind us that 20 years ago the same fruits we know were in possession of other people,
We had kaido going all Luffy x Joy Boy recently
Luffy has Roger's hat
Luffy has roger's voice of al things
Luffy has roger's dream
Now we learn Luffy'sf fruit was guarded by government elite forces till merely days before he ate it. What's the most logical conclusion?
Yea, but he always waits until the Korean/Japanese take the risk first.
No risk no fun… Sadly I have no connections
I mean between prophecized second coming, the family with great purpoe and the natural power to rule. I would just find the determinism talk to be stating the obvious.
For me it's more about the nuances within that spectrum. I accept that on some level a shounen hero will always be special, but how thick and on the nose that layer of specialness becomes and how it retroactively changes how you view the characters is where i may end up finding myself dissapointed with new turns. I prefer my heroes greatness to be more on the is it magic or is it mundane side of grey, and less on the pure undiluted chosen one side of the scale. And each little crumb Oda drops seemingly pushes the ball more and more toward the other side of the court
It's not. It's really not.
They ALWAYS get an assist that takes care of a aspect of the threat. This is no different than Brook knowing Moria's zombies were weak to salt and giving them a way to deal with an otherwise impossible threat. Or dwarves knowing about Sugar. Or Bon knowing about a long lost secret miracle healer.
If you feel the way it was handled was off, that's legitimate. But it was set up way in advance, and nearly a full year was spent getting Tama in place.
It's not cheap or a deus ex machina. It's not the most broken or convenient thing to ever happen. Nor is it wrecking anything.
The samurai have been fighting them and holding them off in the background for a year. The drama of that has been done and played and not a whole lot has been made from it. If you were hoping ten years ago that you were going to see a huge army fighting a big army of beast guys? You have gotten exactly that. What more do you want from that? Full chapters of nothing but soldier A fighting soldier B?
What exactly were you expecting that we haven't already seen? What was explicitly promised that wasn't delivered? How do you want 5000 samurai to defeat 30,000 mooks, that they hadn't already been doing?
Tama got a few hundred fighters to switch sides. So did Chopper! That's enough to allow a turnaround and give the heroes a second wind. She did not single handedly win the battle.
Was Chopper supposed to win over all of them with his kindness? Or is it okay that he only did some of them?
The tension is SUPPOSED to break, this is the climax, they're starting to win. This is when the various threats fall one by one, until the one last big threat kicks in.
The other top officers are going to fall over the next couple months, then the tension points are going to be Big Mom, Kaidou, and the Island crashing. It'd be bad if we were still worrying about background mook 7,892 at that point.
While I've been strongly defending Onigashima save for a few minor hiccups, the reoccuring complaint that it lacks tension is one I think actually holds water. People were expecting and hoping to see a tenser, more uphill battle against a more overwhelming enemy than we got, and the tension break isn't having the catharsis expected of it because even the darkest hour of the battle never really got that dark.
It almost feels like Oda made his heroes overprepare for the battle ahead of them. On paper, the Beasts Pirates outnumber the alliance sixfold. In practice, the alliance feels a lot larger because they have dozens of named characters with established skillsets while Kaido's comparatively few executives are fighting to get their characterisation in after the fighting already started. There is such a diverse range of skillsets in the alliance that every problem they encounter has two or three people that come immediately to mind as being perfect for dealing with it. The ice virus, for example, wasn't a case of "how will we deal with this" but "who gets to deal with it?" By the time it came up we had three ship's doctors, one of which had experience with Queen's bioweapons and another of which has the idea diametric opposition - healing fire - as his power, not to mention the Minks' established medical team, who could take care of it. The alliance always seems to not just be able to deal with what's thrown at them, they have multiple options for doing so.
It almost feels like if the final battle of the last Avengers had started with the portals scene, without giving the core group the chance to make a desperate last stand first. You'd still get a flashy, visually satisfying set piece with a few good ups, downs and sacrifices out of it, but it wouldn't have quite the same emotional punch. Cornered heroes to cavalry charge is a tried, true and expected narrative combo that Oda's decided to eschew this time (or maybe accidentally triggered early).
I'll stress that I'm still having a great time in Onigashima and I think the interactions and set pieces make up for it not having the white-knuckle how-will-they-get-out-of-this intensity of Enies Lobby or Marineford, but given the setup, it's reasonable we've got people disappointed to be getting a victory lap instead of a desperate struggle. Some of these people are still holding out hope the arc will make an abrupt swerve to give them what they were expecting, to maybe a less reasonable degree. I think they'd be best served by accepting the arc for what it is, but I'm not in charge of their reading experience.
While I've been strongly defending Onigashima save for a few minor hiccups, the reoccuring complaint that it lacks tension is one I think actually holds water. People were expecting and hoping to see a tenser, more uphill battle against a more overwhelming enemy than we go
THAT I can understand an empathize with. The overall tension hasn't been ass strong as it could be… because the fully assembled crew is STRONG. That's part of the reason they've been so split up for the last decade.
Though once we started seeing gifters fighting their animal like Holdem with his stomach lion, or with bizarre designs with their animals coming out of crazy places, like Fourtricks coming out of a chicken's butt, or the guy with a giant entire gorilla on his fist, or Dobon being a giant Hippo, it became pretty clear these were meant to be fun and not a real threat.
I'm not sure how anyone could see THOSE designs and keep expecting a super serious tense battle with them afterwards, and there were literal YEARS to adjust to that.
"developing" and "innate" are mutually exclusive terms.
Here actually lies a fundamental point of my (and i believe most of the other similar) criticism: Oda's expanding on the backround of the protagonist, instead of his story, like he's retroactively adding chapter -1, -2,- 3… instead on exanding on the consequences of what happened in hapter 1, 2 3... .The premise should remain intact, while the themes and events of the story are developed based on what we see int he story itself. This is what it should happen as the story gets longer.
"Developing" and "innate" can overlap in storytelling and worldbuilding. The author has the ability to add new things while also saying they were there all along (whether they were planned to be or not). Haki is a great example of something Luffy started developing about a decade ago, but in the lore of the series he always had the innate potential to tap into.
I don't really follow the problem with expanding the protagonist's background though. Was the Ace/Sabo/Luffy flashback also a retroactive chapter -1? Can we not expand into the past as well as the future (especially in a series so well-known for leaning on extended flashbacks for its big emotional blows)? Especially if we're making sure the things from the past being shown are tied directly to how the present and future are playing out. And what exactly is broken about the original premise anyway?
Hell, can we not call this kind of thing a consequence of chapter 1? We've known the whole time that the fruit was stolen from someone, so it's actually not a bad question to ask how that person feels seeing the fruit they lost be use to shoot to the top of the pirating world.
Also, it doesn't have to come to determinism directly robbing the charachter's agency. at this point, every Luffy achievement ends up undermined by later revelations that usually amount to
1)It was foretold
2)Roger did itThose both bring the reader to the realisation that there wasn't any other road Luffy could have gone down to reach is goal, and none other than Luffy could reach that goal anyway. It doesn't matter hw unpredictable and outlandish he may look or sound. He's just following some wacky railroads, but railroads nonetheless.
I guess some people can still enjoy this kind of story… somehow.
You couldn't name one thing Luffy's achieved that's been undermined by a foretelling or Roger being a forerunner because there's nothing in the series that fits that description besides them Luffy taking the same route through the Grand Line as Roger's final voyage. What prophecy did you read that said Luffy would fight to end the civil war in Alabasta because he befriended the nation's princess in a chance encounter, and only survive the aftermath (and end up with a way to understand the poneglyphs at all) because of a moment of kindness showed to Robin? Did destiny necessitate bringing peace to Skypiea to find the One Piece, or would it have been enough to find the poneglyph there and move on, leaving the locals to die at the hands of their mad god? What scene in the flashback showed Roger razing Enies Lobby to the ground and walking away, orchestrating an Impel Down breakout or restoring the rightful ruler to Dressrosa? Which cave drawing on the moon dictated that the chosen one would go to Punk Hazard because of a fishing mishap and go out of their way to save the children being experimented on there despite the wild impracticality of doing so?
To my memory, the two times Luffy and Roger actually have doubled up were in befriending the Minks for their poneglyph and sneaking into Big Mom's territory to get a rubbing of hers. In literally every other location they both visited, Luffy has helped locals and solved problems that Roger either never got to or didn't even exist in his time.
Luffy may have picked up a lot of Roger's symbols, and he may act a whole lot like him some time (and is that destiny, or because he learned from Shanks who learned from Roger) but his actions remain very much his own.
All we have to go on at the minute are parallels and vague talk of destiny. There's no written prophecy about Luffy's voyage we've had the privilege of viewing yet, just vague talk of destiny and an idea of there being a "right" person for the One Piece. Whether that means that person is born or made, we don't know. Whether that means the right person is the only one who can reach or use it, or whether they'd be the only one who would use the One Piece the right way in accordance with Joyboy's will, we don't know.
Back in Fishman Island we did get an actual prophecy that was seemingly about Luffy, and he made a pretty damn big point of either not fulfilling it or making sure it was fulfilled only in a symbolic way that still let him do what he wanted, depending on your interpretation.
Now, is it a stroke of luck (and/or fate) that Luffy chose the right path out of seven at the start of the Grand Line that led him to everything he needed without having to make a second lap like Roger did? Yeah, absolutely. But that comes back to the point of "why is this guy the main character and not any other dude?" At least part of that answer is "because he was lucky enough to blindly pick the right bloody route."
And the gom gom being part of this is not a wild guess based on a vague sentence in this chapter.
In this very arc Oda went to incredible lengths to remind us that 20 years ago the same fruits we know were in possession of other people,
We had kaido going all Luffy x Joy Boy recently
Luffy has Roger's hat
Luffy has roger's voice of al things
Luffy has roger's dream
Now we learn Luffy'sf fruit was guarded by government elite forces till merely days before he ate it. What's the most logical conclusion?
What are you implying here, that the fruit was Roger's? Maybe before Oden's flashback you could have argued the point, and even then it would have been a stretch (heh). We don't know why the fruit was being transported under a Cipher Pol agent's watch. We don't know what level of guard the Government usually puts on Devil Fruits when they're transported. Hell, the only other uneaten Devil Fruits we've seen on their side also found their way into CP9's hands. If Luffy and co had made it to the Tower of Law about half an hour sooner they might be able to boast possession of a giraffe fruit and a soap fruit that had been under Cipher Pol's protection, and the whole world would be wondering what was so special about them.
@Zik:
Wait what?
You completely lost me with this straw super soldiers turned in to piglets.
I was purposefully being ridiculous here because I thought it was funny and to prove a point. It's the story of the big bad wolf blowing down houses that the piglets make, revealing the piglets inside. So the story is Momotaro feeding a pheasant, monkey and dog, and them joining Momotaro presumably out of gratitude for being fed. Meanwhile this somehow turns into this demon child mind raping sentient half-animal humans (they don't even join out of gratitude, the dangos have 0 nutritional value). It's about as ridiculous and far removed as wolf Tama blowing on straw people to turn them into piglets.
this is a crazy stretch.
I know right :ninja:
LOL. Eating all the piglets after the fight during the party?!
I'm just being overly outrageous here for fun lol. I'm riffing on our heroes being in hindsight, unintentionally, hilariously horrible in what they're doing to their enemies. The gifters might be going to remain on Wano, being the country's eternal, happy little puppy dog guardians begging for the sweet release of death on the inside.
Meanwhile, all the bad plot points are still the same.
THAT I can understand an empathize with. The overall tension hasn't been ass strong as it could be… because the fully assembled crew is STRONG. That's part of the reason they've been so split up for the last decade.
Though once we started seeing gifters fighting their animal like Holdem with his stomach lion, or with bizarre designs with their animals coming out of crazy places, like Fourtricks coming out of a chicken's butt, or the guy with a giant entire gorilla on his fist, or Dobon being a giant Hippo, it became pretty clear these were meant to be fun and not a real threat.
I'm not sure how anyone could see THOSE designs and keep expecting a super serious tense battle with them afterwards, and there were literal YEARS to adjust to that.
Yeah, us fans can be as bad as half the series' villains when it comes to underestimating the Strawhats. There's obvious satisfaction in seeing them get to show off after so long separated, but I do hope there's at least one more significant wall for each of them to push through in the final arcs.
I'm glad Oda's had fun designing the Gifters the way he has and wouldn't change them for the world. I think it almost always shows when an author is writing/drawing for themselves instead an audience, and for better or worse Oda is 100% playing to his own tastes in Onigashima. He can't help that he loves crazy animal people more than battle-ready shonen bruisers.
I wonder if it would have made a difference to the battle simply to not just have the samurai fleet, Jinbe and Marco show up in almost consecutive chapters and have it be just the Supernova trio and the Scabbards entering the island alone at the start and getting backup as they go. But that would take an amount of rekerjigging and scene rearranging probably better suited to the 'holding the pen' thread.
I wonder if it would have made a difference to the battle simply to not just have the samurai fleet, Jinbe and Marco show up in almost consecutive chapters and have it be just the Supernova trio and the Scabbards entering the island alone at the start and getting backup as they go. But that would take an amount of rekerjigging and scene rearranging probably better suited to the 'holding the pen' thread.
We had that story in Impel Down. Luffy entered alone, left with multiple Warlords, Dragon's second in command, several old enemies and a ton of fodder mooks to help out.
Sort of got it again in Dresserossa, Luffy built an army of impromptu allies behind him on the fly.
And again on Cake island.
Them going in with no one and ending up with a ton of allies isn't a new trick. Inevitable in a series this long with this many arcs.
While I've been strongly defending Onigashima save for a few minor hiccups, the reoccuring complaint that it lacks tension is one I think actually holds water. People were expecting and hoping to see a tenser, more uphill battle against a more overwhelming enemy than we got, and the tension break isn't having the catharsis expected of it because even the darkest hour of the battle never really got that dark.
Maybe that's what there is to it indeed. Reading Robby's list, I have to admit Tama is possibly not even the worst offender we've had throughout the years in terms of providential saviors (she's still bad, though. If we're paralleling Momotaro I would rather have the food taming part at least be an achievement of Momo, or Chopper researching a cure to defectuous Smiles, or why not Sanji cooking for hungry people. That there's a Devil Fruit power that happens to specifically obliterate the will of Gifters still makes me cringe).
Yet, there is something about Onigashima and its execution that makes Tama's part irk me when in the past I've welcomed similar plot devices as just an awesome moment. Maybe indeed because the tension we're supposed to feel from this battle was never quite there due to pacing issues and how the different fights are showcased. And so when Tama's turn in the spotlight comes, suspension of disbelief is simply not there anymore.
We had that story in Impel Down. Luffy entered alone, left with multiple Warlords, Dragon's second in command, several old enemies and a ton of fodder mooks to help out.
Sort of got it again in Dresserossa, Luffy built an army of impromptu allies behind him on the fly.
And again on Cake island.
Them going in with no one and ending up with a ton of allies isn't a new trick. Inevitable in a series this long with this many arcs.
I get what you're saying, but I think it would have worked a little different for Onigashima because it wouldn't be about recruiting allies as we go (save for Tama shenanigans anyway and Drake and Yamato turning coat). We know we have allies, we've spent most of the past decade gathering them, so it's all about when and how they arrive.
A few posts back I made an Avengers Endgame comparison and I think it still holds up here. Onigashima is like if the final battle there had opened with the portal scene, with all the lost allies the movie had been about restoring assembling to fight. But the portal scene worked so well because it was a release of tension after the core group tried to fight Thanos alone and were being beaten down and put on the back foot. I'm wondering if there could have been a version of the Onigashima battle with more of that structure, where Oda doesn't take us into the fight with all the heroes' cards faceup.
A few posts back I made an Avengers Endgame comparison and I think it still holds up here. Onigashima is like if the final battle there had opened with the portal scene, with all the lost allies the movie had been about restoring assembling to fight. But the portal scene worked so well because it was a release of tension after the core group tried to fight Thanos alone and were being beaten down and put on the back foot. I'm wondering if there could have been a version of the Onigashima battle with more of that structure, where Oda doesn't take us into the fight with all the heroes' cards faceup.
I mean Oda already did it when Luffy, Law, Kidd and later on Denjiro and Jinbe so I don't see him pulling the same thing twice.
I mean Oda already did it when Luffy, Law, Kidd and later on Denjiro and Jinbe so I don't see him pulling the same thing twice.
That's what I'm saying. Oda brought the allies in - did the portal scene - right at the start of the arc, before even landing on the island, and Marco's arrival came only a handful of chapters later. The cavalry came before Luffy even made eye contact with Kaido, let alone get pushed into a corner by him.
What I was musing on is how this arc might have felt different if Oda had spaced out those arrivals more to let the crew feel slightly more outmatched in the early stages of the conflict. It's a 'what if…' kind of thought.
Whatever Magellan was using it was potent enough to eat through solid concrete/steel quality material. The EFFECT was basically using acid.
If its called something else, that's fine.
But Robby, we literally see people come into contact with it and react not at all as if they had been touched by acid; a dude went “oh no I have been infected with poison” with another person “yer a goner now”, then the infection got passed on, then the persons keeled over once the poison took hold of them, all the while Magellan explicitly calling it…poison. It was poison. I don’t get why you’re so adamant on the idea that Magellans poison was a non factor during the escape when that is in no way framed as such during Impel Down itself?
And that was the reason I brought this up, not because of you specifically, but because I found the stated notion that the threat of Magellans poison was void during the escape completely baffling. Looking at the origin of the topic, the order went, as far as I can tell
if that was the only thing Magellan had available, Luffy could probably have taken him then, though still with trouble.
Luffy did not however develop ACID immunity, which is what Magellan was using at the end.
I’m rebuffing your interpretation that Ivankov was SO convenient that he nullified the established poison threat of Magellan, who then had to concoct a NEW non-poison based threat to be relevant again, because its just not in the text. It would render the wax armor scene completely, utterly pointless, because by that logic Luffy could have just touched regular Magellan without wax. It requires willfully recategorizing Magellans last super poison so that, contrary to what everyone says in the manga, its not actually poison. It is an interpretation born out of info coming 100 chapters later, and involves a radical reinterpretation of the threat and stakes of the final escape…
…all for the sake of arguing increased relative convenience for Ivankov in the Impel Down arc, in order to make him comparable as precedence for Tamas convenience? If not, why bring up poison immunity and Magellan being supposedly impotent during the final escape save for his final move which is now supposedly not poison?
This case is extra weird because it was obvious 10 years ago Oda was going to do some Momotaro shenanigans, and really obvious three years ago when we first met Tama.
..is this a western thing where we didn't grow up with the tale of Momotaro so all the stuff is just weird and out of place to us, while its perfectly natural to the Japanese readers?
Like if Oda incorporated a Cinderella motif we wouldn't blink at a glass slipper being introduced despite it making no sense? So to us feeding an animal a treat and taming them is just belief breaking and unreasonable??
But as stated before, it being rooted in a folk tale doesn’t really automatically excuse however its handled in story, neither does how far in advance it is seeded. And since the full payoff is coming now, it makes sense for people to object now, same as people would object to a character resurrection when it happens even if it had been anticipated for ages.
I'm not saying they are irrelevant.
I'm saying Tama's one action is not singlehandedly winning the whole thing. as was being stated.
She's helping. It's providing a turn around. It's dealing with something… but not something Oda was going to focus on heavily otherwise. The gifters were never going to be THE thing that stopped the crew, they were always going to be for the secondaries. For example the minks could have been the solution instead if Oda wanted, but they were never going to be stopping Zoro and Luffy as more than a distraction..
For the record, I never stated that Tama was winning the war singlehandedly either. But a big part of the argument, which I do agree with, is that whatever you might think of them, the smiles/gifters have been set up, for 100s of chapters, as an extremely vital part of Kaidous operation to target. And If we can settle on the gifters not being complete jokes, and them actually mattering, then it just seems we disagree on how much. With the amount of paneltime, the amount of chapters dedicated specifically to this plot thread, how much it has been mined it for drama, how much time has been spent on it both before and in Onagashima, and the emphasis that this really matters in the scheme of the war, I think that its fair that the solution to countering all that is interrogated. And for many, the convenience of the solution is unsatisfying
Whereas, if I understand correctly, you seem to say that while the gifter plotline does matter, it doesn’t matter enough that it can’t be handled in this extremely convenient particular way – the gifters don’t matter enough for people to be hung up over the handling of Tama. And we can’t convince each other otherwise.
All I can say is, if Oda wants me to fully buy into the emotions and drama of the events this chapter, to say nothing of the preceding chapters of Tama on Onagashima, then it not ideal when I find the underlying mechanics sloppy and convenient.
If you don't like it personally that's fine, but its really really weird to me that people are acting like this came out of nowhere or that its magnititudes out of line compared to the help they've gotten before.
Its all a matter of context, and compound convenience I feel.
With something like Ivankov, convenient as it is, at least Ivankov is an extremely senior and notorious combatant in the OP world as opposed to a complete no-name civilian.
At least it is presented as if the poison healing is a specific skill he has developed with serious complications instead of a baseline DF skill that works instantly with no side effects.
At least Ivankovs whole establishment and characterization is that he’s a miracle worker and body-warping hormone specialist who knows the body inside out.
And at least its just used to cure Luffy of that one specific case of poisoning, and not as a complete nullifier of the aspect of poison threat in the rest of the arc, unless you’re going full revisionist history.
And yeah, it is convenient that there is a super poison-healer in the prison, definitely, but the Problem and solution – the “lock” and “key” – of “Poison” and “Cure For Poison” are not that insanely specific. Theres’ plenty of poison in the world, and plenty of ways to cure poison. Ivankov could be relevant in many other situations, and again, his presence doesn’t fully nullify Magellans poison threat in the arc. But in comparison, the Problem and Solution in this case are “super-specific animal-hybrid soldiers only found in this particular crew due to an extremely elaborate and cutting edge science project/supply chain” and “DF ability to convert these specific animal hybrid people only found here into permanent allies”.
It’d be one thing if it was a case of “the beast pirates have a lot of beasts, and are countered by a master beast tamer the SHs’ met who has trained herself to counter the beast pirate beasts”
Adding “the beast pirates themselves include a bunch of permanent beast-human hybrids as one of their trademarks, and are countered by a master beast tamer to counter the beast pirate hybrid-beasts” makes things a bit more specific and convenient.
Adding “its not really animal taming, its just a DF ability that befriends animals and these specific hybrid people of this specific crew that exist nowhere else, but specifically not other DF animal people” makes things more convenient.
Adding “converting the “animals” requires no skill, it is literally the baseline functionality of the DF” adds more convenience, “the ability wasn’t developed as a counter to the beast pirates, it required no intelligence gathering like Brook with the salt or the Dwarves with Sugar, this one person just… happened to have this perfect ability” adds more, “the effects are permanent and can be passed on from one enemy soldier to another, instantly overriding all loyalty and self-preservation” adds even more, and then yeah theres the fact that said counter-ability is established in chapter 1 of the arc it will be relevant in…after 200+ chapters in advance establishing the specific problem it is to counter. Its literally “here is the solution to the problem”, straight off the bat. Which again makes things just…that more convenient. It all stacks up.
Yeah, theres been convenient helpers before, but Tama is like if we’d spent hundreds of chapters building up the obstacle of the Impel Down poison-man, and then first thing that happens when Luffy gets to the prison, first random no-name no-notoriety no-experience prisoner he meets has the “instant poison immunity/curation ability, not ALL kinds of poison mind you, but specifically Magellans poison definitely”, a skill that is the baseline non-effort function of the DF said person – who isn’t even really a doctor or anything. Just a guy.
Or like if the first random civilian in Alabasta had the “expose all lies expose all lies” DF that was then used to compel all the baroque works agents to tell the truth. The more extremely specific you make these things, the less organic they feel.
Okay Daz, you wrote a long thing… but you have completely missed the point I was actually making to home in on something else entirely. And I already explained that to you, and you're still homing in on the other thing.
Sorry, I respect the time you took to write all that, but I'm done following up on what was a one line joke with all due seriousness.
You don't like Tama's ability, that's fine. And you felt the build up of the beast pirates was treated more seriously than I did, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong to be disappointed.
I dunno why we're getting such different levels of expectation from this, but that's fine.
If Tama converted the entire 40,000 army, or was taking out the top 6 guys, I'd completely agree with you it was ridiculous and overpowered and cheap.
But she affected less than 0.013% of them, none of the big main threats, and after a year of buildup.
Allies helping fight mooks is allies helping fight mooks and there were dozens of ways to arrive at similar results, I'm not completely put off by this one.
Okay Daz, you wrote a long thing… but you have completely missed the point I was actually making to home in on something else entirely. And I already explained that to you, and you're still homing in on the other thing.
Sorry, I respect the time you took to write all that, but I'm done following up on what was a one line joke with all due seriousness.
You don't like Tama's ability, that's fine. And you felt the build up of the beast pirates was treated more seriously than I did, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong to be disappointed.
I dunno why we're getting such different levels of expectation from this, but that's fine.
If Tama converted the entire 40,000 army, or was taking out the top 6 guys, I'd completely agree with you it was ridiculous and overpowered and cheap.
But she affected less than 0.013% of them, none of the big main threats, and after a year of buildup.
Allies helping fight mooks is allies helping fight mooks and there were dozens of ways to arrive at similar results, I'm not completely put off by this one.
TLDR Tama's ability is just a convenient way to deal with the gifters. Whether the Momotaro stuff is around or not or if we knew it since 3 years ago. It cheapens the arc, it lowers the stakes and makes a plot point that has been a focus since freaking PH obsolete. So no, it's not good writing.
Tama helped shift the tide of battle in a long battle with lots of shifting in momentum. She's just a piece of the puzzle in a long chain of events that are needed to bring down one of the strongest crews in the world. Same as Yasuie dying, Denjiro busting out all the captured samurai, Kinemon being an idiot, Sanji and Shinobu saving Mononosuke from execution, the Worst generation kicking Big Mom off the roof who in turn attacked Page One and Ulti, Chopper curing the Oni virus and getting the Pleasures and Waiters to defect, Usopp capturing Bao Huang, everything Yamato is doing, Law's crew saving Luffy, and these are off the top of my head and not accounting what has yet to happen in the story.
Same as every other arc which always consists of collaboration with the locals and lots of team work and lucky coincidences to overcome impossible odds. A massive confluence of events that all tie together. Is Tama's fruit specific? A bit but no where near the most absurdly specific devil fruit and offset by the fact that it was introduced early on (which does make a huge difference, I don't understand why everyone is suddenly acting like setup doesn't matter, establishing things early on makes or breaks a story, it's called Chekov's gun). You don't like that one pay off a particular plot thread? Fine. But acting like it makes or breaks the arc, like Tama single handedly overcame the entire army is silly. Gifters are just mooks, above average mooks, they are far from being the core of Kaidou's power. Did you expect them to be super elite Warlord level enemies, each and every one? Okay fine, that is your prerogative if your expectations were crushed. No other enemy group has ever had opponents that posed a challenge to the crew outside of the core group of fighters so I personally didn't expect any different here. They are a piece of Kaidou's strength, not even his ace in the hole like the Numbers or the Tobbi Roppo, just a part of his power Tama helped to demolish as everyone else in the arc is doing their part to tackle the other parts of Kaidou's military power. One random civilian did not single-handedly win the war, everyone is doing their part.
@TLC:
Tama helped shift the tide of battle in a long battle with lots of shifting in momentum. She's just a piece of the puzzle in a long chain of events that are needed to bring down one of the strongest crews in the world. Same as Yasuie dying, Denjiro busting out all the captured samurai, Kinemon being an idiot, Sanji and Shinobu saving Mononosuke from execution, the Worst generation kicking Big Mom off the roof who in turn attacked Page One and Ulti, Chopper curing the Oni virus and getting the Pleasures and Waiters to defect, Usopp capturing Bao Huang, everything Yamato is doing, Law's crew saving Luffy, and these are off the top of my head and not accounting what has yet to happen in the story.
Same as every other arc which always consists of collaboration with the locals and lots of team work and lucky coincidences to overcome impossible odds. A massive confluence of events that all tie together. Is Tama's fruit specific? A bit but no where near the most absurdly specific devil fruit and offset by the fact that it was introduced early on (which does make a huge difference, I don't understand why everyone is suddenly acting like setup doesn't matter, establishing things early on makes or breaks a story, it's called Chekov's gun). You don't like that one pay off a particular plot thread? Fine. But acting like it makes or breaks the arc, like Tama single handedly overcame the entire army is silly. Gifters are just mooks, above average mooks, they are far from being the core of Kaidou's power. Did you expect them to be super elite Warlord level enemies, each and every one? Okay fine, that is your prerogative if your expectations were crushed. No other enemy group has ever had opponents that posed a challenge to the crew outside of the core group of fighters so I personally didn't expect any different here. They are a piece of Kaidou's strength, not even his ace in the hole like the Numbers or the Tobbi Roppo, just a part of his power Tama helped to demolish as everyone else in the arc is doing their part to tackle the other parts of Kaidou's military power. One random civilian did not single-handedly win the war, everyone is doing their part.
The point is that only Luffy's side demolishes. Kaido's side fails constantly. It's one thing if Tama turns the tides yet the samurai have lost a major number of their forces and it's another to see the samurai barely lose fighters and gain all the gifters and waiters to fight for them.
Luffy's side is constantly winning. Kaido's side is constantly failing to do things ? Oda failed to rise up the stakes and what's annoying is that, not only did he have many chances, but he also did all the set up only for him to destroy said set ups in the next chapter. This arc would become a million times better if Kaido killed a bunch of scabbards of if Hyogoro died alongside some other Yakuza members. It would shown us that Yonko crews are not to be fucked with. Instead the Yonko crew, their general, the strongest creature in the world who just happens to have a fellow Yonko on his side, this incredible force is losing without making any impact.
Say whatever you want about Tama, defend her and this arc all you want. Oda has killed the tension of it. The recent developments are just the icing on the cake.
I get what you're saying, but I think it would have worked a little different for Onigashima because it wouldn't be about recruiting allies as we go (save for Tama shenanigans anyway and Drake and Yamato turning coat). We know we have allies, we've spent most of the past decade gathering them, so it's all about when and how they arrive.
A few posts back I made an Avengers Endgame comparison and I think it still holds up here. Onigashima is like if the final battle there had opened with the portal scene, with all the lost allies the movie had been about restoring assembling to fight. But the portal scene worked so well because it was a release of tension after the core group tried to fight Thanos alone and were being beaten down and put on the back foot. I'm wondering if there could have been a version of the Onigashima battle with more of that structure, where Oda doesn't take us into the fight with all the heroes' cards faceup.
I think that structure and approach would only effectively work if Kaido had been the one to"erase all of Momo's allies before the raid. Only to discover as Big Mom and Kaido are beating the shit out of Luffy and are about to kill him Law does the "On your right" and teleport Kidd, the scabbards, Jimbe, Denjiro, the prisoners, the samurai, side changing pleasures, mind controlled gifters, on to Onigashima. Them Yamato pops out from under rubble with Shinobu and Momo like Ant-Man, Rocket, and War Machin (although technically speaking Yamato parallels Galore more than anything).
I think the say Oda did it was just as effective in a different way woth Orochi having an onside man only to reveal the scabbards had an inside man for 20 years all along and they didn't know it. Granted Jimbe popping up immediately after was a little plot devicey and going too hard with the trope it still worked to set the stage for the raid.
@Johnny:
Jack's outright refusal to go into his Hybrid Form when it would give him a clear combat advantage, especially when multiple members of his crew have done so is actively infuriating me! :D
Like, just turn into it and crush Inuarashi already, you big stupid bastard!
He's always standing there watching stuff, rarely illustrated fighting
idk what's oda's problem with jack or king, queen is eating all the spotlights throughout the arc.
@Zik:
I think that structure and approach would only effectively work if Kaido had been the one to"erase all of Momo's allies before the raid. Only to discover as Big Mom and Kaido are beating the shit out of Luffy and are about to kill him Law does the "On your right" and teleport Kidd, the scabbards, Jimbe, Denjiro, the prisoners, the samurai, side changing pleasures, mind controlled gifters, on to Onigashima. Them Yamato pops out from under rubble with Shinobu and Momo like Ant-Man, Rocket, and War Machin (although technically speaking Yamato parallels Galore more than anything).
I think the say Oda did it was just as effective in a different way woth Orochi having an onside man only to reveal the scabbards had an inside man for 20 years all along and they didn't know it. Granted Jimbe popping up immediately after was a little plot devicey and going too hard with the trope it still worked to set the stage for the raid.
Now that's the kind of shameless ripping-off I want to see! They say there's no more original stories anyway! I'm looking forward to all the raid's female characters being ham-fistedly posed as a group (and the subsequent twitter shitstorm that will follow Yamato's absence or presence in the shot).
But in all seriousness, the kind of change I'm thinking is like how you could probably hold back the arrival of Denjiro, the Minks and the samurai/yakuza fleet a little, because aside from Denjiro tying up Sasaki, they don't do much before the attack on Kaido except hide in the crowd. Imagine getting without them to the point where Kaido just flew the Scabbards to the rooftop, leaving the Strawhats outnumbered below on the Performance Floor. The Scabbards think they'll have their chance to face Kaido directly, but Jack and his little army show up and block the way, and Kin'emon realises they'll never get to Kaido at full power and they barely stood a chance going in unscathed. It's over. Then Denjiro appears, telling him not to give up. The Minks swarm over the walls, transforming as they go. Denjiro hands over a smail linked to the samurai fleet, who are landing at the dock and rushing into the dome to back up the Strawhats already.
This setup should still let us have the great "wrong port" moment from Oda's version, if a little later, as well as not affecting the Kanjuro reveal which I agree worked really well. It doesn't change much in the big picture, but a few more moments of the enemy seeming insurmountable could go a long way.
@TLC:
Same as every other arc which always consists of collaboration with the locals and lots of team work and lucky coincidences to overcome impossible odds. A massive confluence of events that all tie together. Is Tama's fruit specific? A bit but no where near the most absurdly specific devil fruit
Out of curiosity, what would you consider a more specific match of "DF counter to a specific problem? Or perhaps more relevantly, a case of a more convenient DF counter to a problem that you'd consider to be written well.
@TLC:
and offset by the fact that it was introduced early on (which does make a huge difference, I don't understand why everyone is suddenly acting like setup doesn't matter, establishing things early on makes or breaks a story, it's called Chekov's gun). You don't like that one pay off a particular plot thread? Fine.
Yes, Tamas ability was seeded in advance, but if what people have a problem with is the very fundamentals of said ability, why does that matter? People are bummed out now because a payoff that was possible, perhaps even expected, but not desirable (to many, if not you) came to pass - its the exact same process as if people went "I hope Oda doesn't undo this character death" leading to "I'm dissapointed Oda now undid this character death", like of course thats when the complaints are. Countering that with "why is everyone complaining, this was expected to happen ages ago" doesn't really work, because the problem people have is that…it did in fact happen. If it hadn't happened there would have been no reason to complain.
@TLC:
They are a piece of Kaidou's strength, not even his ace in the hole like the Numbers or the Tobbi Roppo, just a part of his power Tama helped to demolish as everyone else in the arc is doing their part to tackle the other parts of Kaidou's military power. One random civilian did not single-handedly win the war, everyone is doing their part.
Well, the difference is that neither the Tobi Toppo nor especially the numbers have been set up as a specific and relevant problem as thoroughly or as far back as the gifter army. Like, you can argue that the Numbers rank higher than the gifters on the individual power scaling chart and be right, but would you seriously argue the Numbers have been built up or framed as as big a deal as the gifters? Because thats again I suspect a huge part of why we're having this Tama discussion, the fact that the gifters aren't some half-chapter throwaway idea like the Enies Lobby dog brigade or Jurors, but that there has been a lot, A LOT of time spent on this facet of Kaidous forces, a lot of time mining them for drama or excitement, particularly since Tamas arrival at Onagashima, culminating in the rousing turnabout this chapter. But the more the story asks readers to care about a plotline - and it does ask us to care here, we've been told to care for years and years - the less satisfying an overly specific and convenient resolution to the plotline can be.
@Johnny:
So, between both Drake and Who's Who confirmed to have joined just two years prior, is the Tobi Roppo a new thing with the crew? Or did they kill and replace two prior members?
They were probably the Flying Four or Flying Five. Drake came in and eF'd up the alliteration.
hi yall,
completely off topic:
Is there a theory thread made about what BIG MOM' s crew members are (currently)up to in WANO?
I know there were a lot of theories of blackbeard invading whole cake island(for the ponoglyph) now that big mom is busy fighting in wano with half her crew…
but isnt it equally possible that big mom's crew are trying to get kaido' s ponoglyph while kaido and his commanders + tobi roppo are busy fighting the strawhat alliance?
if big moms crew ever since coming to wano hardly participates in the action(besides Perospero), then there must be more to it.
the way i see it is that if this(big mom crew being idle/passive) continues and big moms crew ends up doing nothing significant in wano, then that would take some points away from ODA' s writing skills IMO.
on youtube no one speculates about this it seems, what do yall think. is it relevant to theorize about or not?
peace!
Oh I like this theory! Did Kaidou or someone say that the Road Glyph was off Onagashima? Possibly at the main land?
@Daz:
Well, the difference is that neither the Tobi Toppo nor especially the numbers have been set up as a specific and relevant problem as thoroughly or as far back as the gifter army. Like, you can argue that the Numbers rank higher than the gifters on the individual power scaling chart and be right, but would you seriously argue the Numbers have been built up or framed as as big a deal as the gifters? Because thats again I suspect a huge part of why we're having this Tama discussion, the fact that the gifters aren't some half-chapter throwaway idea like the Enies Lobby dog brigade or Jurors, but that there has been a lot, A LOT of time spent on this facet of Kaidous forces, a lot of time mining them for drama or excitement, particularly since Tamas arrival at Onagashima, culminating in the rousing turnabout this chapter. But the more the story asks readers to care about a plotline - and it does ask us to care here, we've been told to care for years and years - the less satisfying an overly specific and convenient resolution to the plotline can be.
You are definitely right in that the Gifters have been set up as a big obstacle much more so than the Numbers or Flying Six. Though due to the history and nature of One Piece I think we all fully understood right away that if Caesar wasn't lying about there being 4 or 500 hundred of these Smile users out there in a single crew then the Sweet 3/Commander/Minister/Executive equivalents would be the "real" obstacles.
Once we actually saw Shoulder Wolf at Zoe I just knew the Smile Users would ultimately be glorified cannon fodder for some lesser characters to deal with.
Large armies in One Piece almost seemed like a joke in much of One Piece. I will say though that after the events of Whole Cake I took the idea of a Smile army a little more seriously. Big Mom's revenge army swarming Nami and Luffy was legit. The Straw Hats, Sun Pirates, Germa and Fire Tank's getting surrounded on all sides was legit. Numbers actually seemed to matter for once. And I like that during the raid the good guys have been commenting on being out numbered or giving slight kudos to the Gifters.
I guess I just always looked at the promise of a massive imitation animal army as some visual spectacle to look forward to rather than one of the biggest obstacles yet aside from Kaido himself.
As a threat I think they play a decent role by One Piece army/fodder standards. Aside from the Smile users themselves though I'm far more invested in what the discarded fruits do to the unsuspecting poor and starving of Wano. Destroying Punk Hazard and smashing up Dressrosa to keep more people from losing their God given emotions is what retroactively made me far more invested in those events and arcs.
My point with Tama's ability not being absurdly specific was meant in terms of the fruit itself and not in terms of how it acts as a counter as I wrote in an earlier post. Sugar's fruit is so much worse in how absurdly specific it is. Not to mention characters like Law, Kuma, Kinemon or Baron Tamago off the top of my head.
Compare to that, animal tamer fruit isn't that weird or farfetched as a concept especially when it's tied to a mythological aesthetic in a mythological setting. You think it deflates a super potential exciting plot detail? Fine, but you cannot claim it's an asspull or wasn't set up properly.
Ultimately peoples' disappointment stems from their overexpectations for the Gifters which I do not understand why. Like I'm sorry, where is this big hype for the gifters coming from? Because they've been a thing since Punk Hazard and there was that one chapter Law talked about them? Is that it? I personally always had the impression that the danger of their group was in the fact that they can be mass produced and not in the individual quality themselves. This impression was further solidified by whatw e saw in Zou with Sheepshead and the other Gifters. Weird, clearly defective zoans. Not to say that they can't be a massive threat. An army of defective zoans is still more of a threat than an army of normal people. But, the fact that they were a product of a relatively new and experimental process always made them seem more like a gimmick to me, something Kaidou was dabbling in to bolster his forces along with the experimental giants (the Numbers). Like Moria's zombies. Potentially dangerous but more in their durability and numbers and given enough time, they could amass to an overwhelming force. I never had the impression that Kaidou had 500 Rob Luccis under his wing. Just above average Mooks. And yes they can be a threat and what Tama did, did matter in the story but I personally felt that the resolution they got fit the importance they had been given in the story and like I said, I don't understand the overblowing of their significance. They were a new, experimental thing Kaidou tried to get more power and it bit him in the ass. If you're disappointed, that's a shame, I'm personally fine with it.
After thinking of the Zou gifters in particular, I came to a realization that rather than "Gifters were written with Tama in mind", I think its the exact other way around.
First, you have the concept introduced in Punk Hazard where it is framed as significant and dramatic by Caesar, and a worthwhile and target in Kaidous operation by Law. In Dressrosa it is important enough to Kaidou to make the prospect of SMILES being tarrgeted makes Doflamingo sweat. The idea that it is just some hobby-project of Kaidous without too much significance simply isn't supported by how much importance Law assigns it, how much pressure it puts on Doflamingo.
When we see the gifters at zou, they behave entirely different than on wano. We see the gifters as people with strange DF-like markings on their regular human bodies, which they can then at will partially transform in ways beyond normal zoan abilities- and this is highlighted as bizarre, noteworthy, dangerous.
But then, when we reach Wano proper, the arc where the gifters will actually have to be dealt with, suddenly all the gifters are in half-animal mode all the time, and first thing that happens is that someone with an ability to convert animals to friends show up. It is explicitly stated that it doesn't work on the beast pirate officers, who are all proper zoans (following the theme set by Jack at zou), who are capable of switching between human and animal form at will. An SBS question points out the variation in the depiction of gifters from Zou to Wano, Oda says "well, its unpredictable, can work in different ways", but suddenly the gifters capable of also changing form at will are nowhere to be found. No more Sheepsheads.
Basically, the moment it was time to have the payoff to the long gestating SMILE plotline, there was a slight overhaul of the Gifter concept, which happened to coincide perfectly with the arrival of an ability that could perfectly counter the gifters, specifically in their updated form.
@Daz:
An SBS question points out the variation in the depiction of gifters from Zou to Wano, Oda says "well, its unpredictable, can work in different ways", but suddenly the gifters capable of also changing form at will are nowhere to be found. No more Sheepsheads.
There's at least one more of them. Sarahebi is capable of elongating her neck at will and was introduced in Wano. I think Oda did change his mind, but I don't care because so many of the gifters are hilarious and I actually buy them as a pretty powerful force, all things considered. If Kaido had all of the ones we've seen and made it to Marineford, they would have done a lot of damage. Comparing the large swathes of them we've seen with the hordes of nameless pirates that fought for Whitebeard and under his allied captains and I think they'd have a pretty good shot.
Not dennying that there are differences betwen smilers on Zou and on Wano but if you squint your eyes you can chalk it up to: Oda need a couple of cool looking smilers on Zou for those scenes to work but when we got to Wano he was free to do what he wanted.
But I would've liked if more Smilers transformed, and into the silly forms they have. Imagine how funny it would be if Hamlet showed up, bragged about his power and then grew a giraffe out of his ass.
But the SMILES plot was resolved bit by bit every arc since it was introduced, the plan was always to take those out of the way.
It was introduced in Punk Hazard where our heroes captured Caeser, the cientist helping out creating the fruits.
Then in Dressrosa they destroyed the factory, so that 1- the production of new fruits stopped, 2-Kaidou would get mad at Doffy.
So when we get to Wano, there are no more fake fruits to be eaten and that army can't grow, now all there is to do is to convert them.
Kaidou's Smiler army was being dismatled ever since we found out about it.
And the first time they are mentioned they do look cool on panel but it's still an army of cool looking fodder, at most it would end like the hundreds guards of Ennies Lobby. They're like Big Mom's unimportant kids or her chess pieces army.
No fake fruit user in the series would ever compare to an actual fruit user or competent fighter, that's why we have the Calamities and the Tobbi Roppo, the real adversaries. The Smilers could be a more serious take but overall they're doing what I expected of them, they were villains of the week early in the arc, they got smacked in the head, they posted some obstacles during the raid, they got smacked some more, now they're friendly and will eventually join the wrapping up feast.
Still a shame that we couldn't see more of Zoro vs the Squadron of Bladed Gifters and similar match-ups.
Yeah, they're fodder but that's still a good opportunity to see some smaller cool attacks and such.
Big Mom had the chess pieces, which felt pretty useless. And then she had her kids, each a powerhouse in their own. Kaidou has a cree composed of other crews. Apart from King, Queen and Jack his crew doesn't seem to be a unity or even work together well. Big Mom at least had the enraged army capture Luffy and Nami to show her strenght