So many unresolved plotlines and unrevealed stuff, Jesus. Don't recall seeing anything like it anywhere else.
Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!
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So many unresolved plotlines and unrevealed stuff, Jesus. Don't recall seeing anything like it anywhere else.
Not with a long standing series that had plenty of time to do something with it all, anyway.
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@Daz:
I guess we're supposed to take it that Ichigo inherited the clinic? You know, having accomplished his age old dream of being a doctor? It only makes sense, considering his 27 years of age, and his father reaching the crippled state of being an immortal 40something ghost in a human shell.
Just like how Ishida accomplished his long held dream of being as blatant a parralel to his overbearing dad as possible, and ALSO became a doctor. What a fitting character arc. I bet he cries himself to sleep, thinking "I thought my passion was supposed to be design and sowing, how did I end up here!?"
And Chad, who came to realize that the best way to honor his grandfathers principle of only using his strength to protect others (symbolized by Chads necklace, made from strips of his beloved skin, as I recall), was hitting people in the face for entertainment. You see, if you squint real hard, you can see that by being a role model, Chad "uses his fists" to "protect" the "pride" of "people with skin like himself".
Also, given how busy Ichigo must be with having his clinic and being a DOCTOR, it only makes sense that ORIHIME is a housewife. I mean, Ichigos skillset has untold job-relevant applications, with DOCTOR being the most obvious, but what could ORIHIME possibly contribute?
This honestly made me laugh far harder than it should. Bleach character development, ladies and gents.
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Have you done Slam Dunk, Fist of the North Star, Jojo, or NAUSICAA yet? They're all finished but would still take a while to read and are classics. Beet the Vandel Hunter has suddenly started up again after a 10 year break which I don't understand, but I liked it at the time.
One Punch Man is fun with great art. My Hero Academia is pretty decent at this point in time. Assassin Classroom just finished and it was pretty good. Berserk is amazing but once you catch up it has long breaks.
Slightly more seinin is Vagabond or Lone Wolf and Cub if you want some samurai action. Usagi Yojimbo on the American side.
There's also american webcomics, for which Sluggy Freelance is finally nearing its end, and El Goonish Shive has managed to survive for some time.
Illustrator got over whatever disease he was dealing with, took a long time though.
There was also some news by Yazawa(NANA) recently.It actually came back april this year actually, two chapters already ever since it came back
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I wonder how Don Kanoji is doing.
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He became the new soul king by democratic process.
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Most likely drunk atm lamenting the fact he was in this manga.
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Wait, that's an actual thing?
-googles-
Oh, it is and it's way more entertaining than bleach has been for the past 10 years.
It's one of my favorites, raccoons (from a distance) are adorable.
To answer one of your earlier quotes from me, the place with that thread with everyone despairing etc. was on BleachAsylum. The thread for this chapter on it is juicy from page 1. I'd feel pity for their immense frustration, but this is why you don't put all your cards on an author that is inconsistent and had a sharp drop in passion. Once in-universe logic starts to get iffy, I detach myself from a series very quickly. Not to say I can't still enjoy it, but I no longer expect satisfying resolutions.
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Am I the only one who think these 'happy endings' with kids and retired Main Character, like, suuuper boring and ridiculous? It was the same thing with HP, then Naruto and now this.
Ichigo, you're a HERO living in a freaking magical world!!
But no. It looks like YOU'RE AN ADULT NOW, SO NO MORE ADVENTURES FOR YOU. Here's your wifu, here's your kids. No more fun.
I'm disappointed.
Yes, exactly.
In-universe-wise it's completely ridiculous, out-of-character and nonsensical for heroes with superpowers to submit to a life of mediocrity. It's like someone gaining wings then deciding that they've flown around enough so they chop the wings off.
But the entire reason behind that is because it's a shounen ending. The whole series is made for kids and as it ends it's made to convey the message/moral of "ok, you had your fun daydreaming kids, now it's time to grow up and work an unfulfilling 9-5 cubicle job until you die."
It's literally destroying the narrative of a creative work for the sake of an after-school special.
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So many unresolved plotlines and unrevealed stuff, Jesus. Don't recall seeing anything like it anywhere else.
At least some of them were probably deliberate on Kubo's so he could try and drag things out or make a pitch for a sequel.
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If Toriyamas editors for example can influence him to create c17&18 and then up to cells final form, then why the hell can't kubos editors make im give ichigo a goal and stop introducing characters non stop and instead focusing on the main ones he has already.
Well the editor of Toriyama was more strict, he is known to even rejecting entire names, instead of just place corrections. Also Toriyama editor just talked his mind about what he thought of the characters, he didn't make anything else. So is possible that Kubo editors gave their opinions and even adviced him to give ichigo a goal and the rest. What possible happened is that Kubo didn't care, opposite to Toriyama that "agreed" with the editor and made new characters.
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Yes, exactly.
In-universe-wise it's completely ridiculous, out-of-character and nonsensical for heroes with superpowers to submit to a life of mediocrity. It's like someone gaining wings then deciding that they've flown around enough so they chop the wings off.
But the entire reason behind that is because it's a shounen ending. The whole series is made for kids and as it ends it's made to convey the message/moral of "ok, you had your fun daydreaming kids, now it's time to grow up and work an unfulfilling 9-5 cubicle job until you die."
It's literally destroying the narrative of a creative work for the sake of an after-school special.
Well, to be fair, it's not like the adventure is over. It's just that a new generation will partake on it.
This is an important Shounen thematic as well. Dragon Ball, One Piece, My Hero Academia and Naruto all use it. No doubt Gohan inspired Boruto and Ichika.
It's not about chopping your wings off for the sake of it, but giving them to someone else.
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Editors have more say in Jump then we think though.
I can't really find myself hating them because I like to think they do many things right.
But they have their fair share of stuff they like to stick with which becomes evident with more jump series that you read. Eg: Happy families epilogues.
Only reason I feel that One Piece haven't gone off it's trail yet was because Oda gives a big middle finger to editors who are full of shit/want to introduce things for commercial purposes.
That and he doesn't care for the higher ups considering that One Piece IS Jump.I agree with what's been said, it sucks that all the creativity has to be drained just because of the society/culture the story is published in.
I like Kubo's interview where he straight up said that he dislike the way Jump does things and his view on the Japanese Society.Doesn't stopped him from giving a crap ending tho.
I take breaks for couple of months at the time. The cast… Yeah, wiki is my good friend. All those names...
I was only half serious, though.
zeltrax from MH?
Yep, that's me. I no longer go there anymore though, it's too optimistic a place and too many new people.
Hey! You're that guy with the Hollow Ichigo avatar. Haha actually I recognised your name waaay back when you started posting here, I always liked your posts on MH.I'm just a lurker here, I only drop by to laugh at the Naruto and Bleach threads usually.
Now that both are gone, there's still Fairy Tail but seriously that shit is the worst. -
Now that both are gone, there's still Fairy Tail but seriously that shit is the worst.
True. Something about ft is just not as bad as naruto and bleach were, or at least making fun of the latter two was more entertaining than ft.^^
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I'm watching that "Fall of Bleach" video. Naruto had a higher average TOC ranking than One Piece (1.4 vs 1.8)? That's shocking.
Edit: nvm I'm blind. It was just the average over 2005.
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True. Something about ft is just not as bad as naruto and bleach were, or at least making fun of the latter two was more entertaining than ft.^^
Nah, I actually think FT is worse than the two series.
People label FT as a poor's man One Piece. I don't even think the series deserve that.
Mad props to the author for his ability to draw but that's it.
While I have certain amount of respect for Naruto and Bleach, I have almost zero for FT. -
I think ft is just bland, while naruto and bleach a long time ago had so much potential which turned to utter crap and seeing the dumb writing was way more laughable than ft.^^
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Well, to be fair, it's not like the adventure is over. It's just that a new generation will partake on it.
This is an important Shounen thematic as well. Dragon Ball, One Piece, My Hero Academia and Naruto all use it. No doubt Gohan inspired Boruto and Ichika.
It's not about chopping your wings off for the sake of it, but giving them to someone else.
It again occurs to me that this is no different from how Ichigo has always been. He just went about his life helping as needed. It wouldn't shock me to learn he still does Soul Reaper work on the side as Hollows appear.
True. Something about ft is just not as bad as naruto and bleach were, or at least making fun of the latter two was more entertaining than ft.^^
Maybe it's that Fairy Tail doesn't try to come off as more serious than it is? Naruto and Bleach tried for serious storylines which made them easily mockable when something failed.
Love it or hate it, Fairy Tail is a lot closer to One Piece in the sense that it doesn't take itself very seriously (barring recent arcs since I haven't followed the series for a while and don't know if they disprove my point)
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This is an important Shounen thematic as well. Dragon Ball, One Piece, My Hero Academia and Naruto all use it. No doubt Gohan inspired Boruto and Ichika.
.I like that you mentioned Ichika instead of Kazui.
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Here's a reminder that at one point of time this series brought us really kickass tracks.
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If you choose to stick it to the bosses instead of trying to deliver a somewhat decent ending for the fans who followed your manga for years and supported it, then sorry you are a prick of an artist.
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Actually Fairy Tail had a lot of potential at the very, very beginning, however it ditched it very, very fast as well.
There also were signs of serious storylines and an better thought-out overall plot at the beginning like with Siegrain/Ultear and the Magic Council. However, instead of actual building up upon it and establishing multiple and interesting fractions with interesting and meaningful interactions, it very quickly boiled down to: there are three dark guilds which Fairy Tail has to defeat one after another.
Instead of creating an interesting mesh of characters, everything completely revolved around Fairy Tail. There never were any other big players who didn't got taken out as quick as they appeared.
Aside from final boss (?) Zeref who, however, isn't handled better as well - considering how his great empire completely came out of his ass without any proper build-up.It started to crumble very early when Gerard revealed his intentions and Ultear giving up her cover immediately as well instead of staying in the council for no real reason 8aside from Mashiman not having a good overall plot). And at the latest at Oracion seis everything fell completely apart.
There also was good world-building at the very first chapters and back then there actually was the right dosis of world-building to keep us interested. However, this was ditched way too early as well.
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If it has to be Shounen, i would recommend Mahaoutsukai no Yome, Owari no Seraph, Kono Oto Tomare, Red Storm, Aku no Higan…
Thank you kindly, I will check those out.
Have you done Slam Dunk, Fist of the North Star, Jojo, or NAUSICAA yet? They're all finished but would still take a while to read and are classics. Beet the Vandel Hunter has suddenly started up again after a 10 year break which I don't understand, but I liked it at the time.
One Punch Man is fun with great art. My Hero Academia is pretty decent at this point in time. Assassin Classroom just finished and it was pretty good. Berserk is amazing but once you catch up it has long breaks.
Slightly more seinin is Vagabond or Lone Wolf and Cub if you want some samurai action. Usagi Yojimbo on the American side.
There's also american webcomics, for which Sluggy Freelance is finally nearing its end, and El Goonish Shive has managed to survive for some time.
Yes to Slam Dunk, MHA, AssClass. One Punch Man! That'll do. I keep starting and stopping but I think it's time to catch up. Is Berserk really that good?
Jojo/Nausicaa/Fist - maybe later.
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Here's a reminder that at one point of time this series brought us really kickass tracks.
I still love the ambient piece that plays when Ichigo is drowning in Zangetsu's realm.
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If you choose to stick it to the bosses instead of trying to deliver a somewhat decent ending for the fans who followed your manga for years and supported it, then sorry you are a prick of an artist.
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If you choose to stick it to the bosses instead of trying to deliver a somewhat decent ending for the fans who followed your manga for years and supported it, then sorry you are a prick of an artist.
Any writer that has to pander to fans and gave audience what they like instead of his original vision is in fact a pretty shitty artist.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Bartholemew:
Actually Fairy Tail had a lot of potential at the very, very beginning, however it ditched it very, very fast as well.
There also were signs of serious storylines and an better thought-out overall plot at the beginning like with Siegrain/Ultear and the Magic Council. However, instead of actual building up upon it and establishing multiple and interesting fractions with interesting and meaningful interactions, it very quickly boiled down to: there are three dark guilds which Fairy Tail has to defeat one after another.
Instead of creating an interesting mesh of characters, everything completely revolved around Fairy Tail. There never were any other big players who didn't got taken out as quick as they appeared.
Aside from final boss (?) Zeref who, however, isn't handled better as well - considering how his great empire completely came out of his ass without any proper build-up.It started to crumble very early when Gerard revealed his intentions and Ultear giving up her cover immediately as well instead of staying in the council for no real reason 8aside from Mashiman not having a good overall plot). And at the latest at Oracion seis everything fell completely apart.
There also was good world-building at the very first chapters and back then there actually was the right dosis of world-building to keep us interested. However, this was ditched way too early as well.
FT never had any potential in any way. The only decent thing about it was it's chapter 0, but after that it was the literal definition of what a shonen series would be like if it was written by a wanna-be writer who has no passion, thought or idea behind his work and is simply borrowing elements from popular series without understanding the idea or have even an author voice behind them in his own work. FT is more like a collection of shonen tropes executed in the worst possible way imaginable than an actual work.
When you look at Naruto and Bleach series, you get the sense of the writers thought-process, and their writing methods and styles regardless of good or bad. When you look at FT, you get nothing about Hiro Mashima style, writing methods or thought process. Nothing about FT tells you anything about the writer. Every element is thrown in because Hiro thinks its popular not because he wants to use that concept and give it his own spin on it.
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Is Berserk really that good?
It is very, VERY good… but not for everyone. The bloody violence, torture and rape that occur throughout are too much for a lot of people. (These elements aren't constant... but they are all there.) Normally I'd be completely offput by those things but yes, the story IS that good that I was able to get past it. One of my all time faves.
The downside, like I said, is catching up... the author's pace is slow so there's usually 4-5 month breaks followed by like 4 chapters, then it repeats. But it's absolutely worth the time.
http://mangafox.me/manga/berserk/c001/1.html
Jojo/Nausicaa/Fist - maybe later.
Jojo you can always try with the anime. Me and Lisa are working our way through it slowly but surely.
And Nausicaa well… its Hayao Miyazaki! You gotta read that one.
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It is very, VERY good… but not for everyone. The bloody violence, torture and rape that occur throughout are too much for a lot of people. (These elements aren't constant... but they are all there.) Normally I'd be completely offput by those things but yes, the story IS that good that I was able to get past it. One of my all time faves.
The downside, like I said, is catching up... the author's pace is slow so there's usually 4-5 month breaks followed by like 4 chapters, then it repeats. But it's absolutely worth the time.
Yeah Berserk is amazing.
Though I would highly recommend to read it on "mangasee.co"
Way better quality overall. -
Fairy Tail have the most generic setting and stories and that is putting it mildly.
It has come to a point when I don't give an ass to bash the series anymore.
Let's say next week Natsu and the guild gets destroyed, most people won't bother caring because the series have completely lost whatever form of suspense and momentum that carried it from the beginning.
If you pay Mashima the same amount of money as he is getting now to draw boobs and assess, he won't even hesitate.
That is how bad FT is.
Mashima sets expectations as fast as he breaks them, he don't care if his story is stale as hell either.…
I agree with everything you said about FT.
You are pretty much 100%.
But for the part about pandering to fans, I have to disagree. A lot of things can happen and fans can be right sometimes.
Original vision/goals are often replaced with something better/worst.
Really, the ability to judge what to change in your story makes or breaks an author.
Too stubborn about your crap and people won't give a shit sooner or later. (Bleach might be a good example.)Anyone interested in series similar to Bleach, I highly recommend Witch Hunt and Tiger x Crane.
Both series very naruto and bleach influenced. Not from the japanese but the story doesn't break thus far. -
Any writer that has to pander to fans and gave audience what they like instead of his original vision is in fact a pretty shitty artist.
Doesn't change the fact that full creative freedom is often a bad thing (just look at George Lucas). You can't just concentrate all the creative power within one single person, or else ideas don't get opposed or discussed in detail, which leads to loss of quality.
That's what editors are for. They prevent mangaka from going full retard. Because there's tons of artists out there who think they are much better than they actually are.
Also, don't forget that Kubo is a professional artist. He is paid to write something that attracts fans (and thus money). He is not some indie artist who hopes his original vision is a hit anymore.
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We have been in this talk for three times already. He's ignoring all reasons for why is necesary for any artist to recieve feedback.
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Doesn't change the fact that full creative freedom is often a bad thing (just look at George Lucas). You can't just concentrate all the creative power within one single person, or else ideas don't get opposed or discussed in detail, which leads to loss of quality.
That's what editors are for. They prevent mangaka from going full retard. Because there's tons of artists out there who think they are much better than they actually are.
Also, don't forget that Kubo is a professional artist. He is paid to write something that attracts fans (and thus money). He is not some indie artist who hopes his original vision is a hit anymore.
I never said that writers can't listen to editors/their teams. I was talking about a writer having to pander to his fanbase and literally writing anything that makes the fans happy and not having any real vision with their stories or messages.
I wonder if people would have been happy if Kubo shitted out a ending that pandered to every Bleach fan group instead of something that was satisfying, flowed well with the series and most of all felt earned.
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Something I've been meaning to say but I keep forgetting to: the quincy arc should not have been the final arc for bleach. Yes it needed to happen, but not like this.
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It is very, VERY good… but not for everyone. The bloody violence, torture and rape that occur throughout are too much for a lot of people. (These elements aren't constant... but they are all there.) Normally I'd be completely offput by those things but yes, the story IS that good that I was able to get past it. One of my all time faves.
The downside, like I said, is catching up... the author's pace is slow so there's usually 4-5 month breaks followed by like 4 chapters, then it repeats. But it's absolutely worth the time.
That's an average of 12 chapters a year, which is still more than Hunter X Hunter on average. The last hiatus ended several months ago, and only gave us 11 chapters. And now it seems he's gone on a break yet again.
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Something I've been meaning to say but I keep forgetting to: the quincy arc should not have been the final arc for bleach. Yes it needed to happen, but not like this.
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It ending like this is an appropriate demonstrate of Kubo's writing style. Completely bloated and ending abruptly and pointlessly despite having four years to bring it to a satisfying close.
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Thank you kindly, I will check those out.
Yes to Slam Dunk, MHA, AssClass. One Punch Man! That'll do. I keep starting and stopping but I think it's time to catch up. Is Berserk really that good?
Jojo/Nausicaa/Fist - maybe later.
It is one of the greatest…
I suggest you pick up Kingdom,once you get past first 50 chapters you won't stop.... -
Doesn't change the fact that full creative freedom is often a bad thing
Objectively wrong and blaming the wrong thing for bad writing. Creative freedom is always good, it's only when that freedom is corrupted by arrogance and self-absorption that bad writing happens. A selfishness that's no different to commerical greed.
If a writer needs others to add to their creative work to make it good then the writer was never any good to begin with. When creative integrity is compromised then all your left with is commerical garbage.
Also, don't forget that Kubo is a professional artist. He is paid to write something that attracts fans (and thus money). He is not some indie artist who hopes his original vision is a hit anymore.
If your main concern is money then you're not an artist.
Art and commercialism are mutually exclusive. Art is about emotion and expression. The desire money/sustenance isn't an emotion, it's a mindless instinct.
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I kinda wish we'do have gotten the "ichigo wakes up and it was all a dream" ending because then we could just laugh at Kubo trolling. This series honestly could've had a more satisfying conclusion if it'd have just ended after Aizens defeat. The Bach fight just screams that the Manga was cancelled abruptly.
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@Fire Fist:
That's an average of 12 chapters a year, which is still more than Hunter X Hunter on average. The last hiatus ended several months ago, and only gave us 11 chapters. And now it seems he's gone on a break yet again.
No he didn't, the chapter comes in Japan 26 of August, it was already announced!
People talk Berserk goes in a lot of hiatus, but in reality the author changed releasing schedules and wasn't like Togashi that we don't know when he goes in hiatus and when he goes back.
Only recently, we got many hiatus, the 1 year one and the one before the anime(and probably 1 or 2 more). But now he returned and for at least 3 chapters he is going fine.
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Objectively wrong and blaming the wrong thing for bad writing. Creative freedom is always good, it's only when that freedom is corrupted by arrogance and self-absorption that bad writing happens. A selfishness that's no different to commercial greed.
If a writer needs others to add to their creative work to make it good then the writer was never any good to begin with. When creative integrity is compromised then all your left with is commerical garbage.
Creative freedom is good, creative freedom that is edging on limitless and near crazy is bad.
Editors exist for that reason.
You can't say that the writer sucked just because he needed help.
He can still be really creative in setting up the world but not that good at writing characters. In that case, do you think his creativity is compromised because someone else assisted in writing character development?
Good writers acknowledge their flaws, their ideas might be good but they accept that people have better ways to do it.Kubo is a good example of a writer that fails to acknowledge that he can't write a whole lot of things but still shits on people who tell him otherwise.
Naruto basically gave up it's original idea and writes itself as a cash cow for the editors.
Both were successful once then proceeded to suck. If you can find the similarity it's because they can't find a balance between creative integrity and learning how to listen for once. Deciding when to stop their creative freedom from going haywire is something good writers have.
By your logic, Toriyama must have been a terrible writer and Dragon Ball would have been way better without Cell arc.
Bleach would also be an example of a good writer because Kubo have so much creative integrity he doesn't listen.If your main concern is money then you're not an artist.
Art and commercialism are mutually exclusive. Art is about emotion and expression. The desire money/sustenance isn't an emotion, it's a mindless instinct.
You are right about good art having emotion and expression but seriously I don't know if you are an artist but if you are it surprised me that you talk like that.
There is so much to Art than "oh it must express feelings well and it must be pretty!", the very fact that you say that commercialism is mutually exclusive makes me sad that you think it doesn't matter if the artist doesn't get the commercial success he deserve. As long as he can emotionally paint his ten year series of waterpainting in his holed up apartment. Maybe one day when he dies, someone will acknowledge him.
Commercialism is a tool. It's not bad or good, how it is used is up to the artist. If he have a story that he really want to tell and message to convey to the world, there is no better way. That's good.
If he instead used it to pander to fans at any moment and give zero shits about the story just to rake in cash. That's bad.And even then we can't say that it's completely bad.
Saying that money is a mindless instinct and not an emotion is a giant fuck you to people who spent hours on their work and then the same amount of time trying to get their work out there. Obviously recognition is important but dude, people need to eat. No one will be motivated to churn out better works after works if they are not recognised. In case you didn't notice in your years in this world, Money is a great motivator.
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I kinda wish we'do have gotten the "ichigo wakes up and it was all a dream" ending because then we could just laugh at Kubo trolling. This series honestly could've had a more satisfying conclusion if it'd have just ended after Aizens defeat. The Bach fight just screams that the Manga was cancelled abruptly.
I remember hoping for a reveal that bleach was just a dream that the kyuubi from Naruto was having.
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Objectively wrong and blaming the wrong thing for bad writing. Creative freedom is always good, it's only when that freedom is corrupted by arrogance and self-absorption that bad writing happens. A selfishness that's no different to commerical greed.
Read again. Full creative freedom. The "full" is important (because that's what fuels arrogance and self-absorption, as no one will question you. Again, see George Lucas).
Creativity is the most important part of the process, but leaving all of it to just one person (especially for big and expensive things like movies) is a recipe for disaster.
If your main concern is money then you're not an artist.
Art and commercialism are mutually exclusive. Art is about emotion and expression. The desire money/sustenance isn't an emotion, it's a mindless instinct.
There are many talented artists out there hoping to be big. Your view of art is quite narrow and cliched, for what should be a broad and imaginative concept.
Because then, many movies and books wouldn't be considered art anymore. Motivations for creating something shouldn't factor in what is and isn't art.
You can create something imaginative, and hope that your ideas resonate with the public and sell well. There is nothing wrong with that.
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I would think that most artists value being able to eat and have a roof over their heads over their "creative freedom".
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Psha, sellouts.
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Shonen Jump's desire for work quality takes a distant backseat to their desire for sales and money. Their goal is to publish manga series that fans like, and so will of course try to aid the author in making it more popular among fans. They were unable to stop Bleach from falling drastically in popularity, and Kubo wasn't exactly a help to them either. So of course they canned it; heck, they even had the goodwill to give him four years to end everything despite Bleach being in bad straits at the end of the Fullbring arc. I'm not saying I like Shonen Jump's practices, but that is how their business operates and getting butthurt over it is foolish. Kubo knew or at least should have known what he was getting into when he got Bleach serialized in 2001.