@Big:
Wasn't Pluton confirmed to be a Warship already? :wassat:
Yes. I forget if anything specifically is said about what Pluton is in Alabasta, but Water 7 confirmed it is a warship.
@Big:
Wasn't Pluton confirmed to be a Warship already? :wassat:
Yes. I forget if anything specifically is said about what Pluton is in Alabasta, but Water 7 confirmed it is a warship.
Well no he doesn't like them personally but he sees their usefulness. I don't think wanting to have the best guinea pigs mean liking the person. Usually guinea pigs are people you don't like. It's making the scum useful. I think our point of difference is that you think Akainu hate pirate so much he sees no value to them when I think he is practical enough to use 3 of them if it means killing thousand more.
I think if they told him he could kill Whitebeard or have have him as an obedient weapon he would pick the second even if he despite Whitebeard. He could have had fuji kill Doffly and pretend Fuji didn't get the message on time, he didn't. Fuji could be talking to him to no longer have warlords instead he talks to Green Bull.
While I do think Akainu hate pirates I think you underestimate how practical he can be about it.
He didn't blow a random boat of citizens. He blew the official boat sent by the government for citizens. So he most definitely went beyond his orders. And a put a personal stake on it. I think the same way he was fine to use Squardo to weaken Whitebeard and butcher them he is more than happy to have Vegapunk use Kuma to make the weapons that make sure they won't ever need pirates again.
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That's actually an interesting theory I did not think about.
Where is a scene in which he shows he appreciates their usefulness?
Most Marines hate and despise the Shichibukai, and think they are pretty useless for the WG:
See Garp´s comment about Kuma, or Smoker, or Kizaru on Shabondy, and these are three very significant Marines.
Akainu is even more hardcore than them regarding pirates, so yeah, i would claim the opposite.
The orders were very clear, kill every scholar. If he suspects scholars being on the ship, he has the authority to take it out, even if it is hardcore in itself.
The WG has never cared about collateral damage.
It was not on Akainu´s orders to manipulate Squardo, WB pointed out irght after how cunning Sengoku still is and Oda shows SEngoku right after being concerned, it was Sengoku´s ploy.
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=49702&page=31&p=3904646&viewfull=1#post3904646
This post and Monkey King's just below it (in last chapter's thread) explain pretty well what Akainu was saying (and he obviously wasn't referencing any higher power, he was just mocking them because as far as he knows they are the highest authority and the other Celestial Dragons went behind their back).
Akainu saying "so you're telling me the whole mistaken mess about Doflamingo leaving the warlords was on orders from even higher than you all?" mocking them? It was a question he asked them as a response to something they said off screen.
Viz's translation is different from the translations of mangastreams & cnet's which is what they were using.
Akainu was questioning how Doflamingo is able to bend the world to his will.
He wanted them to make the mess with Doflamingo stop & in response to that they told him that they placed the matter in Cipher pol's hands.
Akainu responded with "cipher pol..? Let's speak honestly here! The celestial dragons' puppet has gone right over your heads" which was most likely a reference to Doflamingo himself.
But anyways, that whole talk was alluding to something weird going on behind the scenes which we, the audience, were not able to make full sense of.
ok ok, but leaving cp9 power levels aside, I think it is possible that Lucci is being controlled to remain by the WG side, cp9 cover story really gave me the impression that they were going to confront the WG instead of keep being their cheap dogs.
I like the fact Ym exists. It's good, exciting, and isn't an "asspull" - it wasn't set up, but it's not an asspull. An asspull would be something that significantly changes dynamics when one side clealry has an advantage… but the battle hasn't even started yet, it's just a normal reveal.
What you're describing is a deus-ex-machina. Not an asspull.
And yes, it kinda changes the dynamics now that Ym probably will have to be defeated by someone. And he could eventually be the final villain
It isn't a retcon like haki was either, since the fact nobody knows about the king except the elders means the initial introduction of them as "head of the government" wasn't wrong, it was just intentionally misleading.
The best way to hint his existence was to make one of the Gorosei say "hey Gorbatchev, I think we should ask Ym". You know, just citing his name, or playing pronoun games and saying "it" or whatever. Just something coming out of their mouth. But ever since they appeared (chapter 233), they've been spending their time saying "muh D." Which, imo, means that Oda thought about creating a higher authority than the Gorosei only very very recently.
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- Doflamingo said the existence of the national treasure would shake the world
-Im's (the person who is most likely the national treasure) existence would shake the world
It has never been obvious that the national treasure was a living creature. And neither has it been implied that it was actually ruling over the world
-Doffy needed the personality switch operation to be able to control the world
-Im is the ruler of the world. If doffy switched places with him/her he'd be the ruler instead.
He just said that it was useful, right ? Nothing about "using it to switch your personality with the ruler of the world"
The immortality operation is somehow involved with the national treasure
-Im might be related to immortality or something. Doflamingo referenced this again in 906. For people to know about this ability of the Ope Ope no mi, it had to have been used before (maybe on Im)
How does this imply anything about the existence of a ruler of the world above the Gorosei ?
- Sakazuki referenced a higher power than the Five Elders when he talked to them
Both these points came up over 100 chapters ago.
Yep, again, we always knew that the celestial dragons were lobbying on the Gorosei to protect their own interests and whatnot
Gorosei + Celestial Dragons = Parliament. You know, something like that
Anyway, that's exactly the kind of things that can sound very obvious afterwards. But it barely implied anything when it happened
I'm imagining Nilitch reading Hunter x Hunter, when Ging meets Gon and tells him "You know all the world you've met thus far over the course of this series? That's only a little bit of the REAL world out there! And there's this super duper dangerous unknown place never mentioned before called the Dark Continent! Which is where the last batch of villains actually came from, even though nothing had been said about that at the time!" … "That Dark Continent shit was the biggest asspull in HxH ever."
Sorry, but a late reveal when we're still 3/4 into the series is not an asspull. Oda, who has the ending of the series planned since 1995 or something, would not make up anything this significant at this point in the story out of the blue. We don't even know who or what Imu actually is, so calm your horses. And no, I don't like it either, but you're making this way too big of a deal just because your headcannon was blown up in a single chapter. I loved the concept of the Empty Throne being a symbol of peace and a kind of "federalism" of the WG and that was thrown out the window already, which disappointed me. But I'll wait to see where Oda wants to go before calling it foul.
What you're describing is a deus-ex-machina. Not an asspull.
And yes, it kinda changes the dynamics now that Ym probably will have to be defeated by someone. And he could eventually be the final villain
Deus ex machina and asspull are the same thing. And no, it doesn't change the dynamics. Before, they had to defeat elders. Now, have to defeat elders+Ym. We were never told elders' powers etc, so the situation is no different than it was a week ago.
The best way to hint his existence was to make one of the Gorosei say "hey Gorbatchev, I think we should ask Ym". You know, just citing his name, or playing pronoun games and saying "it" or whatever. Just something coming out of their mouth. But ever since they appeared (chapter 233), they've been spending their time saying "muh D." Which, imo, means that Oda thought about creating a higher authority than the Gorosei only very very recently.
Ah yes, all 3 or 4 times we've seen them in the series so far. Because they've been so prevalent as characters and we've had many, long conversation scenes with them, not just small snippets of conversation.
Also, "we should ask Ym" is perhaps the dullest most boring thing I've ever heard suggested. How dull.
The "it" thing was done by Doffy, so there you go, it doesn't have to be the Gorosei, someone else foreshadowed it and that's just as good.
so clock beard is British, awesome; name has to have Ben in it! nice to finally see him.
Great panel, with all the monarchy and what an ending, wow… who are you, IM/YM.. getting rid of future threats eyy.. great arc thus far
And no, I don't like it either, but you're making this way too big of a deal just because your headcannon was blown up in a single chapter. I loved the concept of the Empty Throne being a symbol of peace and a kind of "federalism" of the WG and that was thrown out the window already, which disappointed me. But I'll wait to see where Oda wants to go before calling it foul.
This still applies… it's just that it's a façade, contrary to everyone's belief. It'll stay relevant as something the world countries can aspire to once the king is revealed to the world by luffy & co. We were shown an ideal system... only to expose it as being corrupt. Our hope, as readers, is that the heroes (strawhats I guess) will expose the corruption, get rid of it, and establish the ideal as a new, true system of federal government with no one ruler.
Otherwise the One Piece world would become anarchical. nobody wants that (except anarchists)
@Big:
Why do so many people hold the opinion that Ima is the National Treasure? Since Oda revealed that Shirahoshi is Poseidon, more and more people are expecting this to be the bginning of a pattern Oda will follow with Uranus and the Secret Treasure also some person/living thing.
I don't buy it. Or to better phrase it: I always thought that Shiraohshi was a nice exceptional twist, precisely because this was supposed to be the exception. If any big, powerful, ancient thing from the Lost Century is now a living thing… Oda would kill many options he would have for surprises and make everything very predictable. Just my two cents.
It being an actual person would help me a lot in understanding why Doflamingo wanted the Ope Ope no mi so badly, that's for sure.
I thought an asspull was when the author suddenly inserts something plot critical into the existing story without foreshadowing or alluding to it beforehand making it feel like it was literally created in that moment. Does it really have to turn the tide of a struggle to be deemed an asspull?
This still applies… it's just that it's a façade, contrary to everyone's belief. It'll stay relevant as something the world countries can aspire to once the king is revealed to the world by luffy & co. We were shown an ideal system... only to expose it as being corrupt. Our hope, as readers, is that the heroes (strawhats I guess) will expose the corruption, get rid of it, and establish the ideal as a new, true system of federal government with no one ruler.
Otherwise the One Piece world would become anarchical. nobody wants that (except anarchists)
My thoughts about the revolutionaries until this arc were that they were anarchists. Or at least some kind of republicans. But then Koala revealed that their goal is actually what you just wrote. To remove the corruption at the top of the system and make the whole World Government thing a fair and respectful system of governance. Which is cool too, I guess.
I thought an asspull was when the author suddenly inserts something plot critical into the existing story without foreshadowing or alluding to it beforehand making it feel like it was literally created in that moment. Does it really have to turn the tide of a struggle to be deemed an asspull?
Yes, it must be a convenience outside of the narrative that resolves a problem.
We are going into the discussion of what is or isn't an asspull again, aren't we?
@.access:
We are going into the discussion of what is or isn't an asspull again, aren't we?
Just what I was thinking.
Sorry, but a late reveal when we're still 3/4 into the series is not an asspull. Oda, who has the ending of the series planned since 1995 or something, would not make up anything this significant at this point in the story out of the blue. We don't even know who or what Imu actually is, so calm your horses. And no, I don't like it either, but you're making this way too big of a deal just because your headcannon was blown up in a single chapter. I loved the concept of the Empty Throne being a symbol of peace and a kind of "federalism" of the WG and that was thrown out the window already, which disappointed me. But I'll wait to see where Oda wants to go before calling it foul.
It's more like learning the Hunter organization has bomb in every hunter neck or Blackbeard was actually recruiting so much force to be worthy of serving Rock.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I thought an asspull was when the author suddenly inserts something plot critical into the existing story without foreshadowing or alluding to it beforehand making it feel like it was literally created in that moment. Does it really have to turn the tide of a struggle to be deemed an asspull?
If it change the tide it's a deus ex machina.
A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not always a square.
A deus exmachina is an asspull but an asspull in not always a deus ex machina.
Thats what we all thought before he introduced Big Mom, the uncontested prime candidate to find One Piece and become Pirate Ki.. Queen
She is a buffoon.
Huge difference from the world and a little clique.
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=49702&page=31&p=3904646&viewfull=1#post3904646
This post and Monkey King's just below it (in last chapter's thread) explain pretty well what Akainu was saying (and he obviously wasn't referencing any higher power, he was just mocking them because as far as he knows they are the highest authority and the other Celestial Dragons went behind their back).
I actually thought the same as MK, but again, it's a highly interpretative dialogue, which I also pointed out.
To be honest, it's very likely Sakazuki is not aware of Im's existence. The WG Kings don't know about the existence one a One True Regent, just one chapter ago we saw the official version if that the Five Elders ARE the highest authority since "not even them sit on the Empty Throne".
If the Kings that form the WG are not privy to this, I doubt the same is not true for Sakazuki - who is merely the head of one of the WG's military forces (although the major one). As the Fleet Admiral, Sakazuki is still behind the Commander-in-chief (most likely still Kong), and who knows who else…
So that scene between him and the Five Elders probably don't have him disclosing the existence of a higher power, but actually being ironic about it ("If it was not you five, then who? You want me to believe someone higher than you exist?" or something like that).
And now that I think about it... could it be the CP-0 answer to Im? We know they answer to the CD, but clearly we are not talking about Charlos and every CD commanding them separately, there must be an unit that focus the power of the CD - like that guy who Doflamingo reported to regarding Moriah - and that unit is probably directly under Im.
Yep, again, we always knew that the celestial dragons were lobbying on the Gorosei to protect their own interests and whatnot
Gorosei + Celestial Dragons = Parliament. You know, something like that
In any case, Doflamingo easily hinted at a world-shattering secret and Im is very likely to be involved in all that, which would justify Dofla's words as foreshadowing. It's not like we had much information about what this supposedly treasure is, how it works and how he
It's more like learning the Hunter organization has bomb in every hunter neck or Blackbeard was actually recruiting so much force to be worthy of serving Rock.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
If it change the tide it's a deus ex machina.
A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not always a square.
A deus exmachina is an asspull but an asspull in not always a deus ex machina.
"An Ass Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on."
Okay, fair enough, it might be an asspull. But is it really?
If it is, it's the least grievious form of asspull, given how the entirety of the world government is shrouded in mystery and never properly explained anyway. I think its a natural enough development that there is a king-above-all (and the empty throne red-herring is what makes it shocking, but that's too recent a development to matter), it's been somewhat foreshadowed (doffy, ranks among the tenryuubito were never explained & many assumed someone was leading them), and there's plenty of story left, we're nowhere near the end, this is just the beginning of the veeery drawn out "world government explanation" that started with the introduction of elder stars, then tenryuubito 200 chapters later, and now ultimate king.
Doesn't really matter tbh, again, the only thing that has to change now is people's headcanons for the series end… and frankly, not even that much! We already knew that the world gov noble system would have to be torn down, we've just got to substitute "elder stars" with "Ym" to do so, and since "what one piece is" is still a mystery, it was clear that new developments and characters setting the importance One Piece up had yet to be introduced... that Oda is still massively developing his world and government system at chapter 900 is a surprise to no-one
If this development occurred just before the Straw Hats come to destroy the world government, I'd call asspull. But right now? It's really not.
I maintain that Sakazuki was just being petulant and didn't actually think there was a higher power behind the Elder Stars (just their perceived incompetence).
He just happened to hit closer to the mark than he intended.
Deus ex machina and asspull are the same thing.
They're definitely not.
Deus-ex-machina: Luffy is about to get killed by (let's say) Lucci. Dragon appears outta nowhere without anything at all suggesting that he's gonna appear, and saves Luffy
Asspull: Luffy's hat is a den-den muchi (and obviously, nothing ever established that)
And no, it doesn't change the dynamics. Before, they had to defeat elders. Now, have to defeat elders+Ym. We were never told elders' powers etc, so the situation is no different than it was a week ago.
You're making it sound like it's a simple mathematical addition "5+1=6". It's like saying it doesn't change anything if the Whitebeard pirates are pirating under Whitebeard or on themselves
Ah yes, all 3 or 4 times we've seen them in the series so far. Because they've been so prevalent as characters and we've had many, long conversation scenes with them, not just small snippets of conversation.
It was definitely way more than 3 or 4 times.
And I don't care if they haven't "talked much" until now. It's the author's problem.
The 5elders have been around for a very long time (almost as much as Teach). We saw them saying useless things instead of, anything about that alien in the garage
Also, "we should ask Ym" is perhaps the dullest most boring thing I've ever heard suggested. How dull.
"WB dies
5 Elders: Ym will be happy"
You know, literally anything. Oda had 15years to think this through. They've had more than 650chapters to say anything remotely interesting. But they didn't BECAUSE Oda hadn't invented Ym yet.
The "it" thing was done by Doffy, so there you go, it doesn't have to be the Gorosei, someone else foreshadowed it and that's just as good.
Doflamingo foreshadowed the "national treasure". Nothing about the Gorosei secret worldwide boss
Where is a scene in which he shows he appreciates their usefulness?
Most Marines hate and despise the Shichibukai, and think they are pretty useless for the WG:See Garp´s comment about Kuma, or Smoker, or Kizaru on Shabondy, and these are three very significant Marines.
Akainu is even more hardcore than them regarding pirates, so yeah, i would claim the opposite.The orders were very clear, kill every scholar. If he suspects scholars being on the ship, he has the authority to take it out, even if it is hardcore in itself. The WG has never cared about collateral damage.
I believe Akainu went a great step above his orders by blowing the official ship dispatch for citizens but you disagree. I think dispatching the boat and the talking with Clover means the Gorosei planned on keeping collateral to minimum but we disagree on that also.
You think the marines despise the warlords and think they are useless. I think they are hated/mistrusted but judged necessary by many marines(such as sengoku mentioning how bad losing Handcock or JImbei is).
Our ways of reading those characters and events are vastly different therefore I think the right choice is to listen to your wise advice and agree to disagree. but considering the turn debates takes on this forum sometimes I appreciate we manage to disagree without devolving into insults.
I'm imagining Nilitch reading Hunter x Hunter, when Ging meets Gon and tells him "You know all the world you've met thus far over the course of this series? That's only a little bit of the REAL world out there! And there's this super duper dangerous unknown place never mentioned before called the Dark Continent! Which is where the last batch of villains actually came from, even though nothing had been said about that at the time!" … "That Dark Continent shit was the biggest asspull in HxH ever."
It it is though, lol. There are so many ass-pulls in HxH
But it's not problematic because that's exactly what shonen mangas do (stuff about new world). And Togashi isn't a good writer in the long term. I've already said that many many times
Anyway, citing HxH is totally irrelevant.
Oda, who has the ending of the series planned since 1995 or something, would not make up anything this significant at this point in the story out of the blue.
This doesn't mean anything. It's not because you're suppose to know where you're heading that you CANNOT asspull anything. Obviously, Kubo and Kishimoto "knew where they were going since chapter 1" too
We don't even know who or what Imu actually is, so calm your horses.
He sat on the throne and the 5elders bowed. I'm not over-reacting
you're making this way too big of a deal just because your headcannon was blown up in a single chapter.
It's not really the main issue that it undermines Teach's credibility as the final villain. I mind because there was nothing at all suggesting its existence 3chapters ago
@Cyan:
I maintain that Sakazuki was just being petulant and didn't actually think there was a higher power behind the Elder Stars (just their perceived incompetence).
He just happened to hit closer to the mark than he intended.
That's how I understand as well.
However, he did suggest the CP-0 can move under the orders of the CD without the Five Elders' knowledge, so even if the scene doesn't imply the existence of a higher power, it does imply the Five Elders authority is not absolute. The CP-0 doesn't answer to them but to someone else, and if there is a power that can act on Mary Geoise in parallel to the Five Elders, the assumption that there is a higher authority above them all is perfectly reasonable.
I guess the severity of it feels greater because OP is usually spared these type of things.
Like if the world pope was just the latest in a long line of very sudden suprises it'd feel less harsh.
It just stands out more starkly against OP's usual background of carefully laid groundwork.
It was definitely way more than 3 or 4 times.
And I don't care if they haven't "talked much" until now. It's the author's problem.
The 5elders have been around for a very long time (almost as much as Teach). We saw them saying useless things instead of, anything about that alien in the garage
Erm.
1 - Jaya
2 - Ohara Flashback
3 - Pre-Timeskip
4 - Post-Dressrosa
We also had cameos of them during Whitebeard/Shanks' meeting and Aokiji's fight in Ring Long, but they were all brief reactions involving only one or two of them.
"An Ass Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on."
Okay, fair enough, it might be an asspull. But is it really?
If it is, it's the least grievious form of asspull, given how the entirety of the world government is shrouded in mystery and never properly explained anyway. I think its a natural enough development that there is a king-above-all (and the empty throne red-herring is what makes it shocking, but that's too recent a development to matter), it's been somewhat foreshadowed (doffy, ranks among the tenryuubito were never explained & many assumed someone was leading them), and there's plenty of story left, we're nowhere near the end, this is just the beginning of the veeery drawn out "world government explanation" that started with the introduction of elder stars, then tenryuubito 200 chapters later, and now ultimate king.
Doesn't really matter tbh, again, the only thing that has to change now is people's headcanons for the series end… and frankly, not even that much! We already knew that the world gov noble system would have to be torn down, we've just got to substitute "elder stars" with "Ym" to do so, and since "what one piece is" is still a mystery, it was clear that new developments and characters setting the importance One Piece up had yet to be introduced... that Oda is still massively developing his world and government system at chapter 900 is a surprise to no-one
If this development occurred just before the Straw Hats come to destroy the world government, I'd call asspull. But right now? It's really not.
I'm not saying you have to hate it but we can disagree on some points without having to pretend the other side is just being silly.
My personal distaste for the thing has nothing to do with what technical term you should use for it. I just personally hate the big boss behind the big boss. It's just made worst by how sudden that is. I was already dubious about the chair but now that it is a way to sit someone on it I really don't like it. I don't think the build-up was ever there to have the gorosei be mere underlings and sudden new character that is in control of a character that seemed free is a thing I hate.
Can't wait to see Luffy combine his rasengan with Blackeard's chidori to defeat Kaguya in the last arc
Erm.
1 - Jaya
2 - Ohara Flashback
3 - Timeskip
4 - Post-DressrosaWe also had cameos of them during Whitebeard/Shanks' meeting and Aokiji's fight in Ring Long, but they were all brief reactions involving only one or two of them.
I'm not gonna go through 900 chapters to check that out
But they're nothing like Dragon in terms of dialogue. I mean that only citing the number of times they've been on screen is irrelevant. They've been around and they talked and they had more than 600chapters to hint anything
I don't know if it has been already speculated on this thread, but what if Doffy wanted the powers of the Ope-Ope no mi in order to take Imu's place.
What if the big secret he has is the existence of a shadowy governante behind the actions of the World Government.
I don't know if it has been already speculated on this thread, but what if Doffy wanted the powers of the Ope-Ope no mi in order to take Imu's place.
What if the big secret he has is the existence of a shadowy governante behind the actions of the World Government.
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=49751&page=15&p=3905978#post3905978
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=49751&page=15&p=3905978#post3905978
Yeah that sums up what I was thinking.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not gonna go through 900 chapters to check that out
But they're nothing like Dragon in terms of dialogue. I mean that only citing the number of times they've been on screen is irrelevant. They've been around and they talked and they had more than 600chapters to hint anything
It's still too early to call this an asspull. If Im is in anyway closely connected with the treasure Doflamingo hinted about (and it's very likely that they are), then their presence is hinted in advance through Doflamingo.
For example, if one does need to perform a Personality Transplant because Im can control the national treasure somehow, then Im was properly foreshadowed. We need to know more about how Im fits in this.
I have a thought. It's maybe me overthinking but, here goes. I remember back when Homing left Marijoa, he was given 500M by the Celestials. Then when he wanted to return, he called the celestials, and they declined his request. My question is, who exactly is "Celestials" in this context? They are a group of people, not a single entity. When the word celestials is used like this, who is it referring to? For example, we know Homing had extended family, was there NO ONE that would think of supporting him? Doesn't it feel like the celestials has sort of a hive mentality?
Now compare the situation of Otohime. She convinced a particular celestial to write a letter of recommendation. What if some other Celestial opposes this idea, what happens then? How is conflict between celestials resolved? If you look at the current situation with Roswalt, Charlos, and Mjosgard; I may be wrong, but looking at the response of Roswald and Charlos, it doesn't seem like a protocol exists that one follows in such an event. So, it probably doesn't happen that often, or maybe is the first time this has happened.
Considering how in sync the Gorosei are, and assuming there is sort of a hive mentality with the celestials, at least to the extent that they all seem to value similar things, in a very similar fashion, what if the light to be extinguished is Mjosgard, who threatens this hive mentality?
Logically extending this argument, one can necessitate the existence of Im, but I think most of you can see it at this point, and it would needlessly prolong this post.
Akainu responded with "cipher pol..? Let's speak honestly here! The celestial dragons' puppet has gone right over your heads" which was most likely a reference to Doflamingo himself.
It's Celestial Dragon puppets (as in plural, not singular) and it references CP-0, not Doflamingo (they are puppets as far as Akainu is concerned as all they do is blindly follow all orders the CDs give them). Akainu is literally saying "hey dudes, wtf, even though you are supposed to be the highest authority CP-0 (on orders from other CDs) went behind you back". It's really that simple even though I know that some translations are a bit weird, but so is the Japanese original text as Akainu has a thick Hiroshima/yakuza dialect. Oda literally stated in the info box on that panel "Supreme Authorities of the World Government / The Gorousei" and making Akainu imply that's not the case on the same page makes no sense.
This was truly a twisting chapter!
As for Im's existence….to be honest I'm very excited for their role in the story. If it truly turns out that he/she has been alive since the void century and can order "cleansing" on the fly then he/she must view the emperors as non-threats to his/her rule. This would explain why he/she's never gotten rid of the emperors and he/she's been right so far; none of the emperors have made world-changing waves as much as Luffy and Blackbeard (I do wonder why Dragon wasn't there though, given that his life mission is to change the world).
Now as for Shanks....he's an enigma wrapped in more enigma. I'm leaning on Shanks actually knowing about the existence of Im and the reason he wants Luffy to be PK and is not actively looking for Raftel (as far as we know) is because he cannot see himself changing the world. Thus he settled for keeping the world in order by becoming a force of 'good' as a powerful emperor. Shanks knowing the existence of Im (or just the very hush hush relation between him and the Elders) makes one thing make sense if true. Even as an emperor Shanks can move between the seas without much uproar (aka the theory that Shanks went to East Blue during the timeskip can make sense)
Finally, the matter regarding BB or Im as final boss. This will mainly depend on the order; If One Piece as a manga will end straight after Raftel then I can only see BB as the main villain but I'm of the opinion that post-raftel will be the main act of the collapse of the CD and WG as we know. I previously used to think that Akainu+5elders would be the obstacles for such an arc but we might have Im in the mix. Im is very thin and spindly looking (and I'm definitely judging the 1-chapter character based on looks) but they don't look 'strong' in the sense that he/she doesn't look like a 'brawling' type that we can see Luffy go up against. And if Im turns out to be a woman...well....then she is not likely to brawl with Luffy.
My mind's all over the place right now so sorry in advance if my statements don't make sense or I'm jumping through many loops.
Everytime I see Ym's name I think it is somehow based on YHVH.
Even though I like every new reveal this chapter, I agree they probably could have used more setup.
If Bonney really has a connection with Kuma, it's weird we didn't get a chance to see her react to either him or the Pacifista during the Sabaody arc (And possibly Marineford. I don't remember when exactly the broadcasts were cut off).
As for Im/Ym, even though this kind of undercuts the Gorosei a little, the idea of a mysterious phantom ruler is just cooler to me than a counsel of five old men.
It's still too early to call this an asspull. If Im is in anyway closely connected with the treasure Doflamingo hinted about (and it's very likely that they are), then their presence is hinted in advance through Doflamingo.
Furthermore, it looks like Im's existence is tightly related to most key mysteries in OP: the void century, the D clan, the Nefertari family's decision to not become Celestial Dragons, possibly the One Piece itself.
Once more information about these mysteries is disclosed, we may very well realize that Im was the missing puzzle piece we needed to give sense to everything else. How would you call it an asspull then?
I do agree that the existence of a higher figure to the gorosei is unexpected, but we didn't need to know about him/her until now, and I really can't imagine the gorosei casually mentioning the name of somebody whose existence should be kept secret. I also appreciated that last week, with the empty throne, Oda confirmed what we thought we knew about the WG, only to shock us with the truth today.
Im would be more likely to be an asspull if the Gorosei were more prevalent in the story before this point, and we could be sure that it would be really weird if their actions had been influenced by someone. For example, it would be really weird if we find out that Big Mom is currently subservient to someone, because we know her really well and there's no indication that she is anything less than the top authority of her crew. But the Gorosei have only appeared a handful of times and almost all of their appearances prior to this point were in the presence of someone of a much lower status. This is the first time we're seeing them go into action, from their perspective to boot, and lo and behold this is when Im appears…so really, we're just getting started with these guys and Oda's already established the role Im plays to them. Doesn't sound like an asspull to me.
16 chars of https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/908/page/11
whomp whomp, lol should've read. sometimes i skim the box text when i'm too lazy.
They're definitely not.
Deus-ex-machina: Luffy is about to get killed by (let's say) Lucci. Dragon appears outta nowhere without anything at all suggesting that he's gonna appear, and saves Luffy
Asspull: Luffy's hat is a den-den muchi (and obviously, nothing ever established that)You're making it sound like it's a simple mathematical addition "5+1=6". It's like saying it doesn't change anything if the Whitebeard pirates are pirating under Whitebeard or on themselves
It was definitely way more than 3 or 4 times.
And I don't care if they haven't "talked much" until now. It's the author's problem.
The 5elders have been around for a very long time (almost as much as Teach). We saw them saying useless things instead of, anything about that alien in the garage"WB dies
5 Elders: Ym will be happy"
You know, literally anything. Oda had 15years to think this through. They've had more than 650chapters to say anything remotely interesting. But they didn't BECAUSE Oda hadn't invented Ym yet.Doflamingo foreshadowed the "national treasure". Nothing about the Gorosei secret worldwide boss
I take huge issue with the "saying useless things" part. What exactly is useless about talking about worldly balance, the Will of D, etc.?
I take huge issue with the "saying useless things" part. What exactly is useless about talking about worldly balance, the Will of D, etc.?
Well, if it's the wording that's an issue. Let's say that what they've said until now didn't have any impact in the story. They didn't make any big reveal either, they just gave their opinions on world affairs
I was originally replying to someone who said that Im didn't have to appear sooner because he wasn't relevant before. I just compared it with how the Gorosei appeared 600chapters ago, didn't say anything that impacted the story and that knowing their existence wasn't necessary either(until this very chapter)
Whoever Ym is, I hope this isn't Oda trying to pull a Necron here. No one likes a Necron
And for those who don't know, "pulling a Necron" is when a series throws in a new ultimate villain at the last possible minute. See: FF9, Naruto.
is this madara uchiha
It's still too early to call this an asspull. If Im is in anyway closely connected with the treasure Doflamingo hinted about (and it's very likely that they are), then their presence is hinted in advance through Doflamingo.
I believe there will eventually be some kind of connection between what Doflamingo said and Im. But even then, it would be a far-fetched connection.
National treasure->actually a living being->actually is the ruler of the world
Which is why I'd argue that this isn't too soon at all to call it an asspull. It's not "living creature" that is a problem, but "ruler of the world" because that goes against everything that was established. Sakazuki mumbling some words about a power that maybe gives shivers to the Gorosei is a very weak foreshadowing imo (if it even is one)
But anyway, I'll gladly wait like the rest of you. After all, I have nothing to add for the moment
I'd just like to pinpoint that these two quotations of Sakazuki and Doflamingo happened after the Reverie was announced to take place soon. Which means that even if they're hinting anything, they happened after Oda started thinking about the Reverie.
There are things like "void century" and "D." that have many hints here and there. We've been talking about those for a long time. But "illuminati guy" just happened to be a thing in a matter of 3weeks.
Whoever Ym is, I hope this isn't Oda trying to pull a Necron here. No one likes a Necron
And for those who don't know, "pulling a Necron" is when a series throws in a new ultimate villain at the last possible minute. See: FF9, Naruto.
Because this is the last possible minute.
Because this is the last possible minute.
That is true, but if Oda is gonna make YM some ultimate uber-villain when we have Blackbeard and Sakazuki, who have been around for years, then it's kinda eh.
Thankfully Oda probably won't do that.