Twitter just times out on me. What's this about?
DBZA may not continue post Cell.
It's the TeamFourStar Thread with DBZ Abridged and Pokemon things
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DBZA may not continue post Cell.
Oh. Well that's okay. I didn't like the Buu arc or GT. Super would have been fun. But I think ending after Cell is a decent place to stop.
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Well, that kinda sucks. But they have been doing this for close to 10 years now, and youtube's adpocalypse has kinda screwed up everything for all the web entertainers.
It's really not surprising they're ready to move onto other things and and not spend another 5 years or so doing Buu. And it fits their track records of not finishing anything they ever start. Stupid Lupin abridged and YuYuHakusho abridged.
DO have to wonder what all these other secret projects are though. FF7 abridged kind of sucks and doesn't actually have any of the talent on it, just the studio name.
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They are stopping before Dragon Ball became a self-conscious joke. I'm ok with this, just give the series a great farewell.
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So much good material not abridged is saddening.
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I'm still miffed that Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Abridged isn't continuing.
They are stopping before Dragon Ball became a self-conscious joke.
They're stopping before Goku and pals deal with Emperor Pilaf?
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Goddamn Grant .
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They'll wind up finishing Buu when it becomes obvious that their cash stream is heavily dependent on squeezing out every last bit of blood out of that stone.
Same thing that happened to Kai which was also going to end after Cell.
Complicating things since 2009.
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They'll wind up finishing Buu when it becomes obvious that their cash stream is heavily dependent on squeezing out every last bit of blood out of that stone.
Same thing that happened to Kai which was also going to end after Cell.
Oh so we'll get it in three to four years.
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They'll wind up finishing Buu when it becomes obvious that their cash stream is heavily dependent on squeezing out every last bit of blood out of that stone.
Same thing that happened to Kai which was also going to end after Cell.
Hopefully we'll have a replacement for Youtube that doesn't completely suck by then.
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@Cyan:
Oh so we'll get it in three to four years.
Which is actually faster than when we would have otherwise.
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Well, that kinda sucks. But they have been doing this for close to 10 years now, and youtube's adpocalypse has kinda screwed up everything for all the web entertainers.
It's really not surprising they're ready to move onto other things and and not spend another 5 years or so doing Buu. And it fits their track records of not finishing anything they ever start. Stupid Lupin abridged and YuYuHakusho abridged.
DO have to wonder what all these other secret projects are though. FF7 abridged kind of sucks and doesn't actually have any of the talent on it, just the studio name.
I never even knew someone on the team started a Lupin abridged.
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As goofy and uneven as it is, the Buu saga is what made me a Dragonball fan. I was really looking forward to the TFS version.
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I never even knew someone on the team started a Lupin abridged.
Yeah, it's what Kaiser did originally. He only did like 8 episodes though.
http://abridgedseries.wikia.com/wiki/Lupin_the_3rd_TAS
Out of all of them HBi2K turned out to be the most prolific… he actually finished three full 26 episode series (Berserk, Gantz, and Escaflowne) and he did all those in like a year and a half. So more episodes than T4S or Little Kuriboh have managed in a decade. He's also the one I miss the most.
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They should have Antfish do more stuff; he's easily the best part of AoT Abridged and is really the reason why I'm sad we're never getting more of it.
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Honestly they've given me a lot of entertainment across the years, production value is top notch, funny remixes/memes, I wouldn't even be mad if they stopped at Cell's defeat.
And again, I still got MasakoX's videos and TFS Gaming.
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While I would not exactly be happy if the end of the Cell saga does indeed turn out to be the end of Dragon Ball Z Abridged, I can definitely understand that they might want to end it. Between them having done this for 10 years, the recent problems with YouTube, them actually starting to get professional dubbing jobs, their revenue coming 100% from elsewhere… Yeah I can't blame them. If the show does indeed end with the defeat of Cell then I'm certainly going to miss it, but I can accept it. And I mean, the end of the Cell saga does feel very "end of the story"-esque, so they could easily make it be just that.
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They are stopping before Dragon Ball became a self-conscious joke. I'm ok with this, just give the series a great farewell.
Yes because when I think of Dragonball I think of "super serious science fiction with frowning men". Indeed it is truly the Boo arc that goes against the spirit of the series.
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@Monkey:
Yes because when I think of Dragonball I think of "super serious science fiction with frowning men". Indeed it is truly the Boo arc that goes against the spirit of the series.
The Boo saga is Toriyama not caring about the series anymore. We could see something of that after Namek, but not to levels of the Boo arc.
The lack of planning (half the arc is focused on Gohan new life and training just to him getting shafted after a few panels fight), the humorless jokes, the dumb fusions… Nah, it was even a relief to see the series end after all that mess.
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The Boo saga is great fun, the Gotenks Vs Super Boo fight managed to encapsulate some of the fun of old Dragonball fights with it's ligjthearted nature and slight mocking of the overabundance of suprise speacial attacks seen in the latter fights in Z. Whilst far from perfect I'm glad it exists.
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The Boo saga is Toriyama not caring about the series anymore. We could see something of that after Namek, but not to levels of the Boo arc.
The lack of planning (half the arc is focused on Gohan new life and training just to him getting shafted after a few panels fight), the humorless jokes, the dumb fusions… Nah, it was even a relief to see the series end after all that mess.
The series (post-Cell) was intended to be about Gohan, but Toriyama's editor pushed him to bring Goku back because of falling ratings.
That's why things were so chaotic.
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The series (post-Cell) was intended to be about Gohan, but Toriyama's editor pushed him to bring Goku back because of falling ratings.
That's why things were so chaotic.
Thats just shows that Toriyama failed in making Gohan's side of the story interesting. They had to hurriedly sweep him under the carpet and bring back Goku and Vegeta to save the day.
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The series (post-Cell) was intended to be about Gohan, but Toriyama's editor pushed him to bring Goku back because of falling ratings.
That's why things were so chaotic.
Actually, the official reason Toriyama gave was that, though he tried to make the Gohan the main character, he ultimately felt he wasn't suited to the role.
Of course, we can never know for sure what was going on during that time.
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The lack of planning (half the arc is focused on Gohan new life and training just to him getting shafted after a few panels fight), the humorless jokes, the dumb fusions… Nah, it was even a relief to see the series end after all that mess.
The Boo arc has as much planning as any other arc in the series; typically week by week.
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Like how the androids arc went 19 and 20, wait no 17 and 18, no wait, base cell, no halfway cell, -> Perfect Cell.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
And before we go on the hole of "OMG mangaka should be able to do whatever they want to draw", remember, editors are the first reader of the finished chapter, the ones who give feedback first, and have to convince the author to do the changes. They can't force them, as the author in the end still has to write and draw the manga.
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Toriyama has basically said since it was the last arc, he decided he could do what he wanted and so he did.
But I do get the feeling he grew exhausted of writing by the end of it because it felt pretty aimless by the end of it.
Just comparing Buu and Battle Of Gods/Super is night and day, I think. It definitely feels like he cares more now than by the end stages of Buu.
DBZA: I feel like the last few episodes haven't been as good as anything before. 16 and Perfect Cell are 10/10. The best Abridged material.
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Maybe it's nostalgia, but I liked Buu a lot more than Battle of Gods and Super.
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I definitely liked Battle Of Gods (talking about the movie more specifically) more than Buu. Super has it's flaws, but I still think it's better than the Buu arc. It's just Buu's pacing (and lack of focus for the side cast really bothers me the most out of all the Z arcs) that takes it down for me.
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Buu arc is my favorite arc. Toriyama was having fun again and it showed.
Nostalgia is always going to bind me to the Namek saga being what Dragonball is all about since that little chunk is what we got endless reruns of, and the Vegeta fight that preceded it was epic and Goku going super for the first time is THE defining moment of the series…. but the android saga was always over serious and boring. It had cool moments but it was dull. Buu saa was a breath of fresh air, all the actual character interactions were great, it was loaded with twists and turns, the great Saiyaman stuff where Gohan is going to school and flirting and training Videl is probably my single favorite volume of the series, because it feels so fresh compared to everything else around it, and the overall ending and how they beat Buu is pretty satisfying.
Namek
Buu
King Piccollo/final tournament
Saiyan
Series starting arc/first tournament
Red Ribbon
Android/CellIt's just Buu's pacing that really gets to me.
It paces perfectly fine in the manga. Almost too fast in fact.
The anime padded it out hard, and by the time Kai got to it they had stopped caring so they hardly cut anything.
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It just feels like all the characters besides Vegeta go nowhere. The start of the arc is great. Saiyaman is fun to some extent. Majin Vegeta is interesting. Fusion and Gotenks' ghosts are fun/goofy ideas. But then it turns Kid Buu-centric and he's a boring villain. Not nearly as fun as (later) good Buu. Vegito is fun, but doesn't save it.
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How can someone dislike this?
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It just feels like all the characters besides Vegeta go nowhere. The start of the arc is great. Saiyaman is fun to some extent. Majin Vegeta is interesting. Fusion and Gotenks' ghosts are fun/goofy ideas. But then it turns Kid Buu-centric and he's a boring villain. Not nearly as fun as (later) good Buu. Vegito is fun, but doesn't save it.
Evil Buu never fell asleep and abandoned the arc entirely. I do like Buu a lot in Super, but that was seriously stupid.
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It's strange that my favorite is the Cell arc. It is the Very Serius Shounen type of stuff. Perfect Cell is pretty even with later Buu when it comes to being dull. But basically most of the main cast got to contribute. We see Goku and Gohan actually bond. Goku has one of his best moments. Vegeta goes from jerk to less of a jerk. Bulma's time machine saves everyone and about 200 episodes of developing Gohan leads to somewhere. It has the Water 7 effect that the drama somehow actually works for me.
Maybe it's also nostalgia in my case because I was most excited for more of DBZ and most drawn into the story when Trunks first showed up, just wanting to know more.
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You remember Namek reruns, Robby? Maybe I'm a bit younger than you but I remember them restarting the Buu arc (and actually I think even going back to the Cell arc) multiple times at the point where Vegeta blows himself up and it annoying me even as a kid.
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Maybe I'm losing my mind, but…was the Cell arc really that much more serious than the Namek arc? The arc that had a genocidal alien warlord that the characters were constantly under threat from?
Hmm, I guess the Ginyu Force went a long way.
And the lamb lies down on Broadway
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Imperfect Cell on has basically no funny moments aside from Mr. Satan.
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Maybe I'm losing my mind, but…was the Cell arc really that much more serious than the Namek arc? The arc that had a genocidal alien warlord that the characters were constantly under threat from?
Hmm, I guess the Ginyu Force went a long way.
Namek was also more fantastical and "Toriyamaish" for lack of a better word. Even if technically more sci-fi than the Android/Cell stuff.
By the end? Like by the Super Saiyen transformation? Sure sure.
But for the most part it's way more Dragonball than Cell. -
After watching our heroes fight space warlocks, demons, cosmic bubble gum creatures, vegetable monkeys, and a space emperor, his refrigerator, and his fruit basket, I would say that yes, the Cell saga was more serious.
Yet somehow, the fact that an earthling scientist modified normal human teenagers into cyborgs significantly stronger than the super-powerful 1000-year prophesied space monkey warrior transformation might be the most ridiculous thing in all of Dragonball.
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Yet somehow, the fact that an earthling scientist modified normal human teenagers into cyborgs significantly stronger than the super-powerful 1000-year prophesied space monkey warrior transformation might be the most ridiculous thing in all of Dragonball.
Yeah that always bothered the heck out of me.
Androids as a concept only made sense as villains like before even Piccolo Daimou, let alone after Freeza. -
I mean going by Bulma, Earth scientists are the most powerful beings in the universe.
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I mean, I'd say you could hand wave that given there seems to be a scientific way to explain/rationalize Ki in their universe, given what we've seen with Toriyama's history in Dragon Ball online with Gohan writing a book explaining the basics of Ki control to the world.
It wouldn't be that far off to say that Gero was the first scientist to really be able to understand this and with the research he gathered from observing the main characters over the years, let to him being able to finally create beings using that Ki to their advantage. 16 was full machine and had self sustaining power, but wasn't used. 17 and 18 were modified humans and given the same Ki abilities as 16, but with their regular biology and some enhancements. Then obviously we have Gero himself and 19. Both designed to absorb Ki instead.
So given he had been observing the characters for so long, I can accept him making breakthroughs in the science of Ki and surpassing what he had previously seen in his spying.
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After watching our heroes fight space warlocks, demons, cosmic bubble gum creatures, vegetable monkeys, and a space emperor, his refrigerator, and his fruit basket, I would say that yes, the Cell saga was more serious.
Yet somehow, the fact that an earthling scientist modified normal human teenagers into cyborgs significantly stronger than the super-powerful 1000-year prophesied space monkey warrior transformation might be the most ridiculous thing in all of Dragonball.
To be fair, at least Cell makes sense. You can call out the androids for being far too powerful all things considered, but the reasoning behind Cell's ridiculous power makes sense. And since he's the main villain, that's all that matter really.
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You remember Namek reruns, Robby? Maybe I'm a bit younger than you but I remember them restarting the Buu arc (and actually I think even going back to the Cell arc) multiple times at the point where Vegeta blows himself up and it annoying me even as a kid.
I am at this point older than most of the active forum. They were airing Namek when I was in high school and android saga my senior year.
Maybe I'm losing my mind, but…was the Cell arc really that much more serious than the Namek arc? The arc that had a genocidal alien warlord that the characters were constantly under threat from?
Yes, Frieza was an omnipresent threat, but the world was more fantastical, and the overall tone was a little more "lets hide until we can outsmart this powerful guy while we wait for Goku." Up until the SS transformation anyway.
Cell saga was nothing but "the world is in danger, we have to train some more, this is so dire, ooooh" with zero levity or any real hero moments. Namek had the catharsis of lots of little victories along the way and Goku arriving and beating down the Ginyus super easy, and Buu had tons of levity and several moments to breathe. But Cell was just nonstop seriousness "we're outclassed gotta train some more" where they didn't get any real wins for the entire arc. ANd then doubled down with Trunk's backstory. with no moments of triumph to really let it breathe till Mr. Satan. It was just nonstop grim.
Frieza after a certain point they'd already won, and it was down to Goku fighting cause he wanted to. They'd already revived everyone and escaped, the stakes of actually fighting Freiza were gone. Cell… actually hosted a damn tournament for the sake of hosting a "end of the world" show.
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Imperfect Cell had this perfect creepy horror movie vibe, and it worked really well at first.
Then he absorbs 17, gains the single worst design Toriyama ever produced, and lost all his legit creepiness and replaced it with really nonexistent motivation. People only remember Perfect Cell fondly because Dameon Clarke and Norio Wakamoto absolutely killed the role while also giving the appearance that Perfect Cell had more of a character than he did.
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Cell saga was nothing but "the world is in danger, we have to train some more, this is so dire, ooooh" with zero levity or any real hero moments.
Which is also largely true of the Piccolo Daimao story as soon as he regains his youth.
Cell… actually hosted a damn tournament for the sake of hosting a "end of the world" show.
Goku would have done exactly the same thing in his position.
Complicating things since 2009.
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After watching our heroes fight space warlocks, demons, cosmic bubble gum creatures, vegetable monkeys, and a space emperor, his refrigerator, and his fruit basket, I would say that yes, the Cell saga was more serious.
Yet somehow, the fact that an earthling scientist modified normal human teenagers into cyborgs significantly stronger than the super-powerful 1000-year prophesied space monkey warrior transformation might be the most ridiculous thing in all of Dragonball.
I mean if Arale is as strong as SSB then it's not that unbelievable. But yeah the android arc felt like it would've made more sense pre Namek or even pre King Piccolo. There's also the fact that I hate the concept of Future Trunks as a character, but that's another story.
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To be fair, at least Cell makes sense. You can call out the androids for being far too powerful all things considered, but the reasoning behind Cell's ridiculous power makes sense. And since he's the main villain, that's all that matter really.
I have no problem with Cell, with the exception of having to absorb the unbelievably powerful 17 and 18. Cell was created by splicing together the DNA of other powerful fighters, and Imperfect Cell was not ridiculously overpowered in comparison to the main cast before he absorbed hundreds to thousands of civilians. It's a simple enough concept that I can just handwave it.
I mean, I'd say you could hand wave that given there seems to be a scientific way to explain/rationalize Ki in their universe, given what we've seen with Toriyama's history in Dragon Ball online with Gohan writing a book explaining the basics of Ki control to the world.
It wouldn't be that far off to say that Gero was the first scientist to really be able to understand this and with the research he gathered from observing the main characters over the years, let to him being able to finally create beings using that Ki to their advantage. 16 was full machine and had self sustaining power, but wasn't used. 17 and 18 were modified humans and given the same Ki abilities as 16, but with their regular biology and some enhancements. Then obviously we have Gero himself and 19. Both designed to absorb Ki instead.
So given he had been observing the characters for so long, I can accept him making breakthroughs in the science of Ki and surpassing what he had previously seen in his spying.
My issue isn't that there is a scientific way to explain Ki, but rather that scientifically explaining the whole situation just makes it worse.
If we ignore Whis and Beerus (not introduced in the series), Babidi (no idea where he fits in), and Arale (a gag character), then at the time 16, 17, and 18 are introduced, the strongest known beings in the universe are:
- Buu (in Hibernation)
- Shin (The God in charge of the whole universe) & Dabura (Demon Lord. Perfect Cell level-ish? with Babidi's Majin power-up)
- Kibito (Maybe?)
- Super Saiyan Goku, Future Trunks, and Vegeta
Gero worked with the Red Ribbon Army, and we see Android 8 in that arc. In the 23rd Tournament, we see Tau Pi Pi with his cannon, which I would assume is Ki based. That is 6 years after the RR arc, but no match for Tenshinhan at that point. The Cell Saga is about 10 years after that. So, in those 10 years Gero invented the technology to artificially create beings (16) or modify existing humans (17 & 18), pretty much the weakest race shown in the series, to be above the Super Saiyans without actually knowing about Super Saiyans and while believing he and Android 19 would be enough to kill the current, non-Super Saiyan Goku. That is an exponential increase in power beyond 19 and himself (also, why wouldn't he make himself that strong?). Even if we assume he used Freeza's/King Cold's DNA for some unknown breakthrough like he did with developing Cell, that would mean he used a being notably weaker than Super Saiyans to create the 5th, 6th, and 7th strongest beings in the universe in just three years.
While I do not require logic and consistency in Dragonball, at this point I find the "A wizard did it and then left it in hibernation for a million years" explanation we got for Buu to be infinitely more believable, not to mention more consistent with the rest of the series. King Piccolo was sealed away. Freeza and the Saiyans were in space. Pilaf and the Red Ribbon Army were working in the background but were always there. Only Gero and his creations need to be rationalized by a series of rapid, off-screen technological developments directly contradicted by what we see in the series and what we are told by Gero himself.
As an aside/comparison, this is the same reason why in Star Wars, I am fine with the Death Star (blows up a single, nearby planet by shooting a giant laser) but abhor Starkiller Base (absorbs energy from sun to shoot laser, shoots laser through hyperspace, laser can split to hit multiple planets, laser can be seen from other planets).
TLDR: Little to no explanation is better than an overly-convoluted explanation.
Footnote: I spent too much time over-analyzing the logic of Dragonball. It was fun, but probably not healthy.
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The series (post-Cell) was intended to be about Gohan, but Toriyama's editor pushed him to bring Goku back because of falling ratings.
That's why things were so chaotic.
Nope. That's not what happened at all.
You should go back to the beginning of that entire write up and read it if you're interested at all in the creation process of Dragon Ball. It's fascinating.
However, in several interviews, Toriyama's editor during the Boo arc Fuyuto Takeda is described as being super lenient compared to every editor he had before.
@Kanzenshuu:
It seems most reasonable to assume that implausible, out-of-nowhere plot developments are more likely a natural result of Toriyama’s haphazard writing style than a sign of editorial interference. Compare this with instances where we actually know for a fact that editorial interference was involved, such as with Cell being introduced to the story and quickly changing into his second and final forms. We rarely see people cite these story developments as implausible or rushed, while people frequently cite the implausible and rushed nature of Goku’s survival
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Which is also largely true of the Piccolo Daimao story as soon as he regains his youth.
That had the benefit of being the first time in the series the stakes were at that level, and tensions were high since the dragonballs were destroyed and there was no undo and Krillin was already dead.
And it was also a lot shorter.
I mean if Arale is as strong as SSB then it's not that unbelievable. But yeah the android arc felt like it would've made more sense pre Namek or even pre King Piccolo.
Cell AND Buu would have both played better if they were at pre-Z power levels.
Once the cast was at the "accidentally blow up the planet" stage the powers were just too high.
Most stories about "Toriyama's Editors" stepping in and messing with the story are typically either flat out made up, or at minimum are missing important context.
Not to mention most of the "facts" are from the dawn of the internet where it was hard to prove anything, and "a guy on a website read it in a japanese interview" was pretty much impossible to contradict…. and are now just "common knowledge fact."
To this day "Toriyama clearly meant to end things after Frieza" lingers for no particular reason... I think it may be partly because the US release of the anime stretched out the Namek saga for several years (and with episodes coming out weekly) , and when it did finally end, it was almost another full year before the android episodes started airing.... so it had a super long time to sit as "the end".
Then we got andorids and episodes came out daily so we got the whole sage in a couple months. It gives a very different feel.
