It'd probably be more cost effective to go for a lesser cut if you mostly enjoy the well done texture and the main flavour profile will be ketchup. That aside i don't care if people want to spring for a race car and then speed cap it, its their wallet. But i very much get why grill cooks hate those orders, the logistics of their work station and order flow pretty much mean that a well done steak will be poor. You can't coddle it low and slow like you'd need to try and salvage a well done steak into something juicy.
American Politics: A Brand New Day
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It'd probably be more cost effective to go for a lesser cut if you mostly enjoy the well done texture and the main flavour profile will be ketchup. That aside i don't care if people want to spring for a race car and then speed cap it, its their wallet. But i very much get why grill cooks hate those orders, the logistics of their work station and order flow pretty much mean that a well done steak will be poor. You can't coddle it low and slow like you'd need to try and salvage a well done steak into something juicy.
I'd agree with you…if their job wasn't to cook what was ordered. I know well enough never to order a well done steak from a restaurant because most chefs won't or can't cook it properly. But if someone else does order their steak well done from a restaurant then it's the chef's job to cook it properly. In a perfect world anyway. Most home cooks probably just don't know how to cook a steak correctly, so it's either burned or raw.
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@The:
biden for his inevitable loss in November.
I would've agreed with you a few months ago, but I believe covid-19 and Trumps insane handling of it is the only reason Biden has a chance. I see it as a 50/50 now. Either Trump's bungling of it will bite him or everyone will rally behind their leader in a crisis. I don't think anyone can say for certain wich way the coin will fall.
Also, it's good to be back politics thread. I'm really pretty addicted to this thread.
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Sorry, you say people don't know how to cook steaks properly, then you say you put ketchup on them. One of those statements throws the other out the window.
No properly cooked steak should ever have a sauce. To me perfectly cooked juicy cuts of beef are heaven on earth and why anyone would cover or dilute that perfect taste is beyond me.
Reminds me of living in Japan where they always had to dip them in sauces or cover them in sauces. At least when I went to yakiniku restaurants I could move the meat directly from grill to mouth.
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@The:
I'd agree with you…if their job wasn't to cook what was ordered. I know well enough never to order a well done steak from a restaurant because most chefs won't or can't cook it properly. But if someone else does order their steak well done from a restaurant then it's the chef's job to cook it properly. In a perfect world anyway. Most home cooks probably just don't know how to cook a steak correctly, so it's either burned or raw.
Eating well done steaks is like drinking dark roast coffee. You're 100 percent scientifically losing out on most of the flavor and juices that make it worth the fuss in the first place. For lots of people its a texture issue, but anecdotally from my own experience, the superiority of well done steaks is something people grew up believing, or they don't like the idea of eating "bloody" meat.
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No properly cooked steak should ever have a sauce. To me perfectly cooked juicy cuts of beef are heaven on earth and why anyone would cover or dilute that perfect taste is beyond me.
I completely disagree with this. A good sauce can be extremely complimentary to a good steak. I like to make just a little bourbon cream pan sauce with herbs. Always hits the spot.
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If you have ketchup with your steak, you're not really having steak. "Well done" and your definition thereof doesn't matter, if you need ketchup to "complement" the flavor, you've done something very wrong with your steak.
Ketchup is a powerful over-riding flavor for cheap empty foods. The only reason it works on hamburgers is because those tend to have a lot of toppings and the bread absorbs a lot of it.
ANy meat if prepared right, shouldn't need sauce at all, except for bbq ribs where the sauce is the entire point.
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ANy meat if prepared right, shouldn't need sauce at all, except for bbq ribs where the sauce is the entire point.
There's a difference between needing sauce and being well complimented by it. Lots of michelen starred restaurants cook meat with sauces because that's a great way to explore new flavors, whether it be chicken, beef, or pork.
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I'm gonna refer to this moment in politics as "Icecreamgate".
Nancy Pelosi has a lot of Ice Cream in her big Freezer and Biden has a silly image of him eating Ice Cream with a spoon as the error page on his website.
Truly they are monsters.
I can somewhat forgive them for eating ice cream, Dijon mustard on the other hand? Now that is the sign of a true monster.
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Lol at all the triggered steak elitist comments. Just because ya'll don't know how to cook a steak all the way through doesn't mean it's better. Do you also like your pork and chicken partially cooked?
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There's a difference between needing sauce and being well complimented by it. Lots of michelen starred restaurants cook meat with sauces because that's a great way to explore new flavors, whether it be chicken, beef, or pork.
Agreed. I just like the taste of ketchup with beef. Anybody who thinks that's wrong can eat my entire ass. Raw since that's how most people here seem to like their meat, lol.
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I don't use sauces or condiments on any food.
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@The:
Lol at all the triggered steak elitist comments. Just because ya'll don't know how to cook a steak all the way through doesn't mean it's better. Do you also like your pork and chicken partially cooked?
Chicken is dangerous if not cooked to 165 degrees Fahrenheit and pork used to would give issues, but is now higher quality in the U.S. and safer. And it's harly elitist to say that every renowned chef and food scientist in the world says that rare-medium beef has more flavor. It's fact, not opinion. You might prefer your meat well done for one reason or another (texture, a disgust at the idea of bloody meat), but you're getting less flavor regardless.
Agreed. I just like the taste of ketchup with beef. Anybody who thinks that's wrong can eat my entire ass. Raw since that's how most people here seem to like their meat, lol.
I'm not really advocating for the use of ketchup on beef, but what you like is what you like. I spent most of my life eating steak with barbecue sauce so I'm hardly in a position to look down on anyone. May I ask whether you've ever had a rare-medium steak cooked by a pro chef at a decent restaurant, or by someone who knows what they're doing?
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I would've agreed with you a few months ago, but I believe covid-19 and Trumps insane handling of it is the only reason Biden has a chance. I see it as a 50/50 now. Either Trump's bungling of it will bite him or everyone will rally behind their leader in a crisis. I don't think anyone can say for certain wich way the coin will fall.
Also, it's good to be back politics thread. I'm really pretty addicted to this thread.
Trumpy has a cult that will vote for him no matter what. Literally. And biden doesn't really excite or unify the democrats. Young people who supported Bernie but didn't show up for him certainly won't show up for handsy uncle joe. That's how trumpy wins.
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Chicken is dangerous if not cooked to 165 degrees Fahrenheit and pork used to would give issues, but is now higher quality in the U.S. and safer. And it's harly elitist to say that every renowned chef and food scientist in the world says that rare-medium beef has more flavor. It's fact, not opinion. You might prefer your meat well done for one reason or another (texture, a disgust at the idea of bloody meat), but you're getting less flavor regardless.
I'm not really advocating for the use of ketchup on beef, but what you like is what you like. I spent most of my life eating steak with barbecue sauce so I'm hardly in a position to look down on anyone. May I ask whether you've ever had a rare-medium steak cooked by a pro chef at a decent restaurant, or by someone who knows what they're doing?
I've had medium rare before, but not at a restaurant that I can remember. It tasted literally the same. I'm really just here to bust the balls of steak snobs. I like to jab at people who take steak too seriously. There are people who genuinely believe well done steak is "wrong" and I can't stand that nonsense. As for the texture of steak and whatnot I've never noticed a difference between well done done well and rare or medium. I think that's just fantasy people use to justify their undercooked beef, lol.
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I would've agreed with you a few months ago, but I believe covid-19 and Trumps insane handling of it is the only reason Biden has a chance. I see it as a 50/50 now. Either Trump's bungling of it will bite him or everyone will rally behind their leader in a crisis. I don't think anyone can say for certain wich way the coin will fall.
Also, it's good to be back politics thread. I'm really pretty addicted to this thread.
Based on current polling, the issue that will decide the election probably is Trump's decision to reopen the economy early.
Older voters are terrified of it because they don't want to catch COVID19.
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@The:
And biden doesn't really excite or unify the democrats.
Everyone says this, but it's not true.
He doesn't excite young democrats. Which would include basically everyone on this forum. Millennials, the 40 and under crowd. And well, the younger crowd doesn't vote. (There's a lot of reasons for that, not all of them purely apathy )
He's absolutely what the older crowd want, as seen by his primary numbers completely decimating everyone else.
I don't see the appeal he apparently has, and I don't understand it, but obviously a lot of voters DO think he's the best choice. Even if that appeal is limited to "I think he has the best chance of beating Trump", enough people think that's the case it might be true. he by far pulled ahead in a crowded field of super high quality candidates.
I dunno if he's mostly appealing to older people, or its a rural thing, or a middle class thing, or what, but he DOES have the numbers.
If it had been like 51-49 between him and Bernie in a neck to neck race I'd understand the argument that Bernie was the best shot and just being burned out by the establishment, but once the field narrowed to just those two it was closer to 60-30 in most states once the vote stopped being split 8 ways… and it became clear Bernie's entire strategy was to have a split field let him squeak by with 30%.
Bernie is not the beloved candidate for everyone. (Hillary also soundly beat him everywhere... superdelegates and conspiracy theories don't account for her getting millions more votes.) The entire country doesn't want to be progressive, or at the very least, doesn't feel the Bern, not from him specifically, that's pretty clear. It sucks, but it is the state of things.
Once we lose a few more boomers that'll maybe shift but in the meantime? Young people don't vote. And as noted, "young" people broadly includes everyone up to age 40 at this point, not just teenagers
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If you have ketchup with your steak, you're not really having steak. "Well done" and your definition thereof doesn't matter, if you need ketchup to "complement" the flavor, you've done something very wrong with your steak.
Ketchup is a powerful over-riding flavor for cheap empty foods. The only reason it works on hamburgers is because those tend to have a lot of toppings and the bread absorbs a lot of it.
ANy meat if prepared right, shouldn't need sauce at all, except for bbq ribs where the sauce is the entire point.
Unsauced ribs are better than sauced ribs.
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Biden was Obama's VP, so logically he is Obama 2.0
Obviously I'm voting for him but I'm certainly not excited. What will excite me is Trump losing, hopefully overwhelmingly.
It would help if he picked a progressive VP or filled his cabinet with them.
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Still more or less a lurker on this forum but I have been following politics since I was 7 so about 20 years as my family is very political. I hope I can shine some light on why people prefer Biden over Bernie.
It's the sense of community and understanding our wants. Biden talks direct to us, brings up who we like to vote for, thanks his rivals without calling them owned sell outs, talks a good and logical way to get what we want without destroying our budget and he made the relationships to show results. Never trust the GOP to side with Dems but I also would not underestimate all the relationships Biden made as well. ;Bernie talks a big game about class struggles but most people feel like he just wants to talk over them and does not care about the wants right now. Hence why he did so poorly with black voters. That and the toxic camp and supporters he had that were louder than anyone else didn't help at all. He just never would have been able to put Florida in play, or Arizona.
I guess to put it anther way, Biden talks more like the guy for the local working class while Bernie talks more like all he knows is his stump speech and can't go off it or deal with holes in his ideas so people just can't relate to him nor trust him to do the job. It all feels forced on ideas that just are not viable. Young people in general tend to go for him because they are just not mature enough to understand how government works and those that still do, just prefer the ideal victory than a real one.
I rather have real progress with Biden, who I can trust rather than promises that can't be made from someone who is clearly out of touch and can't do the bare minimum of reaching out to the core voting groups in meaningful ways.
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@Dorobō:
Still more or less a lurker on this forum but I have been following politics since I was 7 so about 20 years as my family is very political. I hope I can shine some light on why people prefer Biden over Bernie.
It's the sense of community and understanding our wants. Biden talks direct to us, brings up who we like to vote for, thanks his rivals without calling them owned sell outs, talks a good and logical way to get what we want without destroying our budget and he made the relationships to show results. Never trust the GOP to side with Dems but I also would not underestimate all the relationships Biden made as well. ;Bernie talks a big game about class struggles but most people feel like he just wants to talk over them and does not care about the wants right now. Hence why he did so poorly with black voters. That and the toxic camp and supporters he had that were louder than anyone else didn't help at all. He just never would have been able to put Florida in play, or Arizona.
I guess to put it anther way, Biden talks more like the guy for the local working class while Bernie talks more like all he knows is his stump speech and can't go off it or deal with holes in his ideas so people just can't relate to him nor trust him to do the job. It all feels forced on ideas that just are not viable. Young people in general tend to go for him because they are just not mature enough to understand how government works and those that still do, just prefer the ideal victory than a real one.
I rather have real progress with Biden, who I can trust rather than promises that can't be made from someone who is clearly out of touch and can't do the bare minimum of reaching out to the core voting groups in meaningful ways.
All I hear when biden speaks is "Nothing will change! We don't need universal healthcare or affordable higher education! Let's go back to the good ol' days of Obama! Remember Obama?! I was his vp! I'll be just like Obama!". And then he rambles on about running for congress and calling people who are critical of him at town halls fat and dogfaced.
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At this point, the 2020 election boils down to "Drink bleach to cure covid", "What the hell? Don't do that!", and "Both sides are equally as bad."
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Also the last two posts before this one are about as a good of a summation of why Bernie was crushed the second the field narrowed as you'll ever see.
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At this point, the 2020 election boils down to "Drink bleach to cure covid", "What the hell? Don't do that!", and "Both sides are equally as bad."
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Also the last two posts before this one are about as a good of a summation of why Bernie was crushed the second the field narrowed as you'll ever see.
It's also a good example of why biden will get crushed by trumpy. Depending on how long the corona virus is around it could scare older democrats into staying home. And since biden certainly isn't getting the young vote, that's a demographic he desperately needs. Trumpy doesn't have that problem. His supporters will walk through fire to vote for him and "own the libs". Nice to see the only progressive who ran getting crushed is celebrated by some. Who needs societal progress, right guys?
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We should start a steak thread at this point.
Everyone says this, but it's not true.
He doesn't excite young democrats. Which would include basically everyone on this forum. Millennials, the 40 and under crowd. And well, the younger crowd doesn't vote. (There's a lot of reasons for that, not all of them purely apathy )
If Biden has any appeal to Millenials it's basically that he was Obama's VP. That's it, really. Because Obama's our man.
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You think politics can get heated? Create that steak thread and find out, lol.
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@The:
It's also a good example of why biden will get crushed by trumpy. Depending on how long the corona virus is around it could scare older democrats into staying home. And since biden certainly isn't getting the young vote, that's a demographic he desperately needs. Trumpy doesn't have that problem. His supporters will walk through fire to vote for him and "own the libs".
Your fellow Wisconsinites would like to have a word with you about every single bit of what you just wrote. Especially since it was another state where Biden crushed a Bernie who once again massively underperformed his 2016 numbers; the Northern Marianas Islands is the only place where his performance improved after last time. Once again, if he has this magical pull with young voters, where are they in the primaries and why would they show up in a general if they couldn't be bothered to vote for him before?
Nice to see the only progressive who ran getting crushed is celebrated by some.
Elizabeth Warren was also in the race and no amount of snake emojis is ever going to erase that.
Who needs societal progress, right guys?
Actual steps forward always beat imaginary leaps.
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@The:
Nice to see the only progressive who ran getting crushed is celebrated by some. Who needs societal progress, right guys?
1. No one here is celebrating, just pointing out the facts.
2. Bernie wasn't even close to the only progressive. Warren shared like 98% of his policies, (and had actual plans to enact them) and many of the twenty candidates in the field were progressive about minimum wage, college, healthcare, green new deal, etc. I was all in for Beto, for instance. Bernie was NOT the only one pushing a progressive agenda, not even close.
Also, even Biden is all in on the Green New Deal, which is THE single most important issue of the next decade and is a MAJOR change of policy looking forward and affecting all areas of the country. It sucks that he's not more progressive about everything else, but the world not being on fire in 10 years is more important than any other single issue, no matter how important an issue is to any given person or people.
We get Biden, we stop the bleeding. We get a progressive cabinet. A progressive to replace RBG on the supreme court. And lots of other things. It's not JUST Biden that's being voted for.
Also, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is 31 in October, so she'll be 35 by the next Presidential election. She could run and do well then, or be a VP, since Biden is almost certainly not going to run for two terms. Or in 2028, or 2034… whatever works for her.
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As someone working in politics, with active access to VAN and can see registered voters in NY I'll say this.
And mind you it's completely anecdotal from my own personal experience and the voters in my district and the few surrounding district.
Every person I know that has been shitting on Biden, stating the DNC rigged everything, posting guillotine memes, saying Trump winning is innevitable has this in common:
They either didn't register as a Dem to vote in the primary to vote for Bernie in either 2016 or for 2020, or haven't done anything to support him locally outside of social media posting. None of them were attending Dem meetings, canvassing for Bernie, or doing any REAL work to support him.
Make of that what you will. But just sharing the perspective of someone who can actively see people posting daily about how Bernie lost, as they are not registered as Dems to have even helped him should he have moved far enough to participate in this years primary. And outright didn't vote for him(even if I can see them lying saying they did) in the 2016 primary.
And while -again completely anecdotal- I'm willing to bet a whole lot of money that all of these people saying it was rigged, in many of these other states(while completely ignoring the massive African American support Biden has) also did not actually bother to register in the Dem party to vote for Bernie, did not canvass for him, did not phonebank for him, and did not attend their local Dem meetings to draw up support among the active, older crowd. Instead they posted Bernie and guillotine memes on Facebook.
And that's not to take away from the GENUINE hard work people did put in on Bernie's campaign.
But for a campaign centered around young voters, it seems in REALITY they had a very hard time actually getting that active internet base to fucking do ANYTHING productive to their campaign. Instead they spent hours sending snake emoji's to Warren on twitter.
By the way, of the two-dozen or so various Dem meetings/town halls/candidate forums I attended across Long Island this past year, that big "grassroots" bernie youth never showed up, outside of a small handful who actively attended.
There was absolutely young active Bernie supporters who assisted in the local campaigns, which is great.
But in terms of pushing Bernie himself, it was -wait for it- the old lifelong Dems who agree with him on policy. Those were the most active, most vocal supporters of Bernie doing the ACTUAL work. Of volunteering their time for free to canvass, phone bank, register voters and explain how to vote in the primary. And most of those people are quite vocally throwing their support to Biden, unlike the young local Bernie supporters who have almost all stated "Well, we're in NY so my vote doesn't matter, I'll write in Bernie". Which again, those people never even bothered to register in the Dem party to vote in the primary.
I really do think most of the young Bernie supporters ARE registered to vote, but had no motivation to do more to support Bernie than post on Facebook and Twitter about him. And then wonder why Biden is doing well, while his supporters are old as fuck, yet still being productive in the pure logistical sense.
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If the young vote refuses to vote against Trump, then fuck them and fuck everyone else who prefers fascism to liberalism just because liberalism doesn't give them a boner.
@The:Nice to see the only progressive who ran getting crushed is celebrated by some. Who needs societal progress, right guys?
FOR IT IS ONLY SAINT BERNARD THE UNDAUNTED WHO ALLOWS SOCIETAL PROGRESS
SAINT BERNARD, IN THE VEIN OF NOTED SOCIALIST REVOLUTIONARIES FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND LYNDON JOHNSON, WOULD HAVE USED THE POWERS OF "MASS POLITICS" TO MAKE JOHN ROBERTS APPROVE THE NATIONALIZATION OF ALL BUSINESSES AND DESTROY THE CONCEPT OF PRIVATE HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS
THE SNAKE LADY IS A MYTH, AS IS THE COP LADY, AS IS THE RADICAL LOVE BLACK GUY, AS IS THE SLAYER OF AL FRANKEN
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@The:
I'd agree with you…if their job wasn't to cook what was ordered. I know well enough never to order a well done steak from a restaurant because most chefs won't or can't cook it properly. But if someone else does order their steak well done from a restaurant then it's the chef's job to cook it properly. In a perfect world anyway. Most home cooks probably just don't know how to cook a steak correctly, so it's either burned or raw.
Most places with some balls just say no well done orders. No reason to offer what will always turn out to be a worse meal option
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Most places with some balls just say no well done orders. No reason to offer what will always turn out to be a worse meal option
Only worse if you don't know how to cook. Just admit you enjoy steaks to only be partially cooked. It's alright, bud. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. And then after admitting it, learn to cook like an adult lol.
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@Cyan:
If the young vote refuses to vote against Trump, then fuck them and fuck everyone else who prefers fascism to liberalism just because liberalism doesn't give them a boner.
FOR IT IS ONLY SAINT BERNARD THE UNDAUNTED WHO ALLOWS SOCIETAL PROGRESSSAINT BERNARD, IN THE VEIN OF NOTED SOCIALIST REVOLUTIONARIES FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND LYNDON JOHNSON, WOULD HAVE USED THE POWERS OF "MASS POLITICS" TO MAKE JOHN ROBERTS APPROVE THE NATIONALIZATION OF ALL BUSINESSES AND DESTROY THE CONCEPT OF PRIVATE HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS
THE SNAKE LADY IS A MYTH, AS IS THE COP LADY, AS IS THE RADICAL LOVE BLACK GUY, AS IS THE SLAYER OF AL FRANKEN
Hey, remember when Bernie tried to tank warren's campaign by claiming she's a secret misandrist? Really hurts your argument when she tried to sandbag the one person she supposedly shares most policy positions with in order to get ahead, lol. Almost like she'll say whatever she needs to in order to come out ahead. Hm…
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1. No one here is celebrating, just pointing out the facts.
2. Bernie wasn't even close to the only progressive. Warren shared like 98% of his policies, (and had actual plans to enact them) and many of the twenty candidates in the field were progressive about minimum wage, college, healthcare, green new deal, etc. I was all in for Beto, for instance. Bernie was NOT the only one pushing a progressive agenda, not even close.
Also, even Biden is all in on the Green New Deal, which is THE single most important issue of the next decade and is a MAJOR change of policy looking forward and affecting all areas of the country. It sucks that he's not more progressive about everything else, but the world not being on fire in 10 years is more important than any other single issue, no matter how important an issue is to any given person or people.
We get Biden, we stop the bleeding. We get a progressive cabinet. A progressive to replace RBG on the supreme court. And lots of other things. It's not JUST Biden that's being voted for.
Also, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is 31 in October, so she'll be 35 by the next Presidential election. She could run and do well then, or be a VP, since Biden is almost certainly not going to run for two terms. Or in 2028, or 2034… whatever works for her.
Warren shared 98% of Bernies policies…until her campaign started floundering. Then she tried that whole "Bernie is a secret sexist!" thing. Didn't turn out too well for her.
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Your fellow Wisconsinites would like to have a word with you about every single bit of what you just wrote. Especially since it was another state where Biden crushed a Bernie who once again massively underperformed his 2016 numbers; the Northern Marianas Islands is the only place where his performance improved after last time. Once again, if he has this magical pull with young voters, where are they in the primaries and why would they show up in a general if they couldn't be bothered to vote for him before?
Elizabeth Warren was also in the race and no amount of snake emojis is ever going to erase that.
Actual steps forward always beat imaginary leaps.
That was kinda the whole point. Young people didn't even show up for the guy they liked. Why would they show up for someone they don't? Especially joseph r. "Nothing will fundamentally change/ I have no sympathy for millenials" biden jr?
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I'm tired of arguing, guys. I'm tired of nothing ever getting better. I don't want to do this anymore.
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@The:
Only worse if you don't know how to cook. Just admit you enjoy steaks to only be partially cooked. It's alright, bud. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. And then after admitting it, learn to cook like an adult lol.
Not saying it as a judgement on your taste, just saying that alot of restaurants lack the balls to tell you up front that based on the logistical restraints of a busy restaurant kitchen no work around can effectively be employed that would allow a workable meal service and your meat will end up being a shoe sole. They'd rather take your dollar and give you a bad meal rather than uphold their standards and lose a buck.
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Not saying it as a judgement on your taste, just saying that alot of restaurants lack the balls to tell you up front that based on the logistical restraints of a busy restaurant kitchen no work around can effectively be employed that would allow a workable meal service and your meat will end up being a shoe sole. They'd rather take your dollar and give you a bad meal rather than uphold their standards and lose a buck.
Yeah, sorry about all that. It was mostly jokes though. Mostly. I really should just stop coming to this thread all together. I always seem to turn into a jackass. And I really don't have the energy to argue anymore. Not like when I was younger.
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@The:
Warren shared 98% of Bernies policies…until her campaign started floundering. Then she tried that whole "Bernie is a secret sexist!" thing. Didn't turn out too well for her.
Warren never said "Bernie is against all women doing anything and he hates all women and thinks they should be paid less". She said "He privately groused about me running and saying I couldn't win because I'm a woman."
Which, whatever his normal stance might be on the issue, sounds completely legit and true.
You don't have to be a full blown misogynist to say something sexist, especially in the middle of a heated campaign where you're not sleeping enough and getting angry at irrational things and being swamped by STUFF, and one of your opponents shares 98% of your policies and is taking away some of the votes you crucially need to be even remotely competitive..
You look at how she reacted to him in the debate after that came out. She was pissed at him, gave him angry looks, body language, how she addressed him throughout that debate, refused to shake his hand. She wasn't faking or making a talking point to try and score a cheap victory. She legitimately thought and believed he had said something nasty about her, and felt betrayed and demeaned. She was actually angry about it, not just faking it as a talking point.
And, regardless of what Sanders did or didn't actually say, the point made was absolutely true. It is an actual fact. As someone who liked Warren and wanted her to be the nom as my first pick… as a woman she DID have less of a chance, especially against Trump. It's a fact. Not being sexist, that's just how it ACTUALLY is in this situation. And as no woman has yet won the U.S. presidency, or even the vice presidency, its applicable to say they have less of a chance even in a normal cycle without Trump in the equation.
That's not sexism, that's facts and history and statistics.
You don't have to be a sexist harassing monster to say something inappropriate, especially in private.
Also, it had come out several weeks prior that Bernie said something similar (or maybe it was the same report and it took time to reach Warren). Reported weeks before Warren got upset about it and lingering in the news cycle. And that pissed me off towards Bernie and made me think "well maybe he's not as good as I'd hoped. He IS an old man after all and deep down..." . I don't know if he actually said it, or if it was one of his people reporting a rumor, or misreporting something they heard wrongly, or a republican making something up, or an innocent phrase that sounded one way to him and sounded another to her, maybe it was a misunderstanding, I don't know. No one does! but it WAS attributed to Sanders before it was publicly an issue with Warren. That article is impossible to find now because the later story completely overshadowed and buried it, but it wasn't just fabricated from nothing.
And then not long after, Warren and Sanders clearly had a private discussion and they moved on and were friends again. Not something that happens just a day or two later when its some kind of scheme or plot to discredit someone as a campaign policy as your only shot at victory play.
A similar thing happened with Hillary in 2016, with her basket of deplorables line. That was one line in a much longer speech. In context the message was "some of Trumps supporters might be truly awful people, but most of them aren't and they're still you're friends and neighbors and we should reach out to them instead of shunning them, there's lots of good normal people going for him and we can't just be hateful towards half the country" but the media just played the one sentence and interpreted it as "100% of Trump's supporters are deplorable and you should spit on them." Which was the opposite of the actual speech.
You can't take a speech and cut it down to a single out of context line and then in turn make that the entire identity of an argument or belief, no matter how often the media does it, because the more sensational stuff is what gets ratings. Same goes with every clip of "Joe Biden had dementia" where they just take a few second of him working around his lifelong stutter and interpret it as nonsense, while if you watch a solid five or ten minutes of the same clip you see its not dementia-like at all.
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They either didn't register as a Dem to vote in the primary to vote for Bernie in either 2016 or for 2020, or haven't done anything to support him locally outside of social media posting. None of them were attending Dem meetings, canvassing for Bernie, or doing any REAL work to support him.
These are the same people who don't understand why attacking the Democratic Party isn't a winning strategy in a Democratic primary; that's because they see The Party as being a faceless other that just exists to push them down since they have no real contact with the people in it while actual Democrats who vote see the party as being made up of, well, themselves.
@The:
That was kinda the whole point. Young people didn't even show up for the guy they liked. Why would they show up for someone they don't? Especially joseph r. "Nothing will fundamentally change/ I have no sympathy for millenials" biden jr?
But if they're not going to show up even for the guy they like, why should you tailor your appeal to that crowd instead of building a broader coalition and trying to peel off swing voters like Biden is doing?
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And, of course:
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Count me in not caring to go after the young vote if they won't show up. It's a big reason I hope AOC does mature and learn from Sanders and his faults if she wants a shot at something higher than being a rep who grandstands. She needs that relationship feeling that Biden-types bring in that make Democrats feel towards her. Don't get me wrong, she is a Democrat superstar for many rasons but that alone won't take her to the White House. She herself won due to low turn out if I recall right, that alone puts a worry on the more progressives types if they can only win if enough people don't vote. Obama was super rare in that he was a superstar and the type of Democrat the party could just get behind and stand with. The standing with part is another charm of Biden, all those endorsements and teamwork from Pete to Bernie to heck even Gabbard and all their supporters is amazing and is the biggest idea that there is unity among actual voters.
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We should start a steak thread at this point.
The pineapple pizza arc was really something else. Now after the timeskip, I'm really excited to see how the steak arc will pan out.
@The:It's also a good example of why biden will get crushed by trumpy. Depending on how long the corona virus is around it could scare older democrats into staying home. And since biden certainly isn't getting the young vote, that's a demographic he desperately needs.
Ahh.. no it's not? This primary clearly showed that it's pointless to campaign for the youth vote because they just don't vote. No matter how much Biden might hypothetically try. They won't vote for Trump either. It's about the swing voters. The primary was a reality check and us Bernie supporters need to learn from it lest we stay in our echo chambers. Another reality check was that the average voter just isn't informed at all, they don't have time to be (well, maybe the quarantine will change that). When we see all the insane Biden gaffes we though "how could anyone vote for that?", but it turns out the average voter just hasn't seen a single one of those videos. The insane shit that Biden says just doesn't matter at all, which I think is a big reason why you underestimate his performance. There's a big danger of getting stuck in an echo chamber on the internet and you should always be wary of that. Always be open to new information, most notably Bernie's annihilation (still, fuck Obama for personally calling everyone to have them drop out right before tuesday… )
Trumpy doesn't have that problem. His supporters will walk through fire to vote for him and "own the libs".
I think you're overestimating how large that group is. They are very loud though, making them seem more numerous than they are, kind of like us Bernie supporters. They're still way too numerous for my liking, but elections are and will always be decided by the swing voters. My real worry this election is; will Biden be able take the rust belt back?
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My real worry this election is; will Biden be able take the rust belt back?
Out of curiosity, what is the situation of the rust belt since the elections 4 years ago? Did it had some significant changes?
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@Dorobō:
Count me in not caring to go after the young vote if they won't show up. It's a big reason I hope AOC does mature and learn from Sanders and his faults if she wants a shot at something higher than being a rep who grandstands. She needs that relationship feeling that Biden-types bring in that make Democrats feel towards her. Don't get me wrong, she is a Democrat superstar for many rasons but that alone won't take her to the White House. She herself won due to low turn out if I recall right, that alone puts a worry on the more progressives types if they can only win if enough people don't vote. Obama was super rare in that he was a superstar and the type of Democrat the party could just get behind and stand with. The standing with part is another charm of Biden, all those endorsements and teamwork from Pete to Bernie to heck even Gabbard and all their supporters is amazing and is the biggest idea that there is unity among actual voters.
AOC has done more party-building in one year than Bernie has done in five.
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Out of curiosity, what is the situation of the rust belt since the elections 4 years ago? Did it had some significant changes?
They voted blue all over the place in 2018. Michigan and Pennsylvania look good for Biden, but Wisconsin is going to be very close. There’s a larger chance that Arizona votes Dem than Wisconsin.
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Warren never said "Bernie is against all women doing anything and he hates all women and thinks they should be paid less". She said "He privately groused about me running and saying I couldn't win because I'm a woman."
Which, whatever his normal stance might be on the issue, sounds completely legit and true.
No it doesn't… why would he have pushed her to run in 2016 if he didn't believe a woman could become president?
You don't have to be a full blown misogynist to say something sexist, especially in the middle of a heated campaign where you're not sleeping enough and getting angry at irrational things and being swamped by STUFF, and one of your opponents shares 98% of your policies and is taking away some of the votes you crucially need to be even remotely competitive..
Except even that is horribly out of character for him.
Look back at the last few months of the campaign and think about how he refused to use any of Biden's flaws against him.
Think about that moment when Biden lied on stage and said Bernie had nine super PACs and Bernie was totally incapable of using that lethal gaffe against him.Bernie is a bit of a coward who wants to be friends with everyone and was frankly not up to the task of running a presidential campaign.
In the heat of the moment he just shuts down and doesn't swing the bat, because he's terrified of offending people and driving them away.You look at how she reacted to him in the debate after that came out. She was pissed at him, gave him angry looks, body language, how she addressed him throughout that debate, refused to shake his hand. She wasn't faking or making a talking point to try and score a cheap victory. She legitimately thought and believed he had said something nasty about her, and felt betrayed and demeaned. She was actually angry about it, not just faking it as a talking point.
Politicians can be good actors.
For all we know she was angry about a completely different thing that he said to her in private.
Maybe the theory about him telling her that he was concerned a woman couldn't beat Donald Trump in this modern era of increased sexism is true, and she only told us a half-truth. That still counts as turning it into a talking point to score a cheap victory.
We know it was at least partially a setup by CNN based on how incredibly unprofessional the moderator was, so I'm going to do what I would do with any other politician and not take her word for it.
And, regardless of what Sanders did or didn't actually say, the point made was absolutely true. It is an actual fact. As someone who liked Warren and wanted her to be the nom as my first pick… as a woman she DID have less of a chance, especially against Trump. It's a fact. Not being sexist, that's just how it ACTUALLY is in this situation. And as no woman has yet won the U.S. presidency, or even the vice presidency, its applicable to say they have less of a chance even in a normal cycle without Trump in the equation.
That's not sexism, that's facts and history and statistics.
Yeah, but if that's what he actually said then it was still a shallow and dishonest play to the "woke" crowd.
…And when Bernie supporters rightfully called her on it, the media treated it like an army of incels attacking a poor defenseless woman… with emojis.
To some extent this is how the game is played. You skillfully paint your opponent as evil or incompetent and the truth only really matters if it can be used as a shield or a weapon.
If the media is attacking your opponent, you don't defend them.To bring back what you said earlier…
…in the middle of a heated campaign where you're not sleeping enough and getting angry at irrational things and being swamped by STUFF, and one of your opponents shares 98% of your policies and is taking away some of the votes you crucially need to be even remotely competitive..
That's probably why Warren did it.
You don't have to be a sexist harassing monster to say something inappropriate, especially in private.
Also, it had come out several weeks prior that Bernie said something similar (or maybe it was the same report and it took time to reach Warren). Reported weeks before Warren got upset about it and lingering in the news cycle.
Unless I'm mistaken, it was the same story and Warren or one of her staff allegedly leaked it to the press weeks before the debate.
Of course, lying and scheming are much more in character for CNN than Warren, so I don't want to discount the possibility that they were the ones who dug up the story and talked her into doing what she did at the debate.You're not going to convince me that this wasn't (at least in part) a setup by CNN to trap Bernie in a fake scandal.
Watching it again, Warren spends a lot of time looking down and almost sounds like she's on the verge of tears once or twice. She looks deeply ashamed, and goes out of her way to remind people that Bernie is her friend and this isn't about something he did wrong. It's about women being able to succeed even where men have failed.
The moderator showed no such empathy towards Bernie and immediately dismissed his denial as a lie.
I can forgive Warren for trying to use a cheap trick to win an election with higher stakes than any other in modern history, but CNN not so much.
And that pissed me off towards Bernie and made me think "well maybe he's not as good as I'd hoped. He IS an old man after all and deep down…" . I don't know if he actually said it, or if it was one of his people reporting a rumor, or misreporting something they heard wrongly, or a republican making something up, or an innocent phrase that sounded one way to him and sounded another to her, maybe it was a misunderstanding, I don't know. No one does! but it WAS attributed to Sanders before it was publicly an issue with Warren. That article is impossible to find now because the later story completely overshadowed and buried it, but it wasn't just fabricated from nothing.
Whether or not the first story had any truth to it, it acted as priming. When Warren did formally accuse Bernie, you were significantly more likely to believe it as a result.
I'm gonna see if I can dig up the story because I want to refresh my memory on exactly what was said.
A similar thing happened with Hillary in 2016, with her basket of deplorables line. That was one line in a much longer speech. In context the message was "some of Trumps supporters might be truly awful people, but most of them aren't and they're still you're friends and neighbors and we should reach out to them instead of shunning them, there's lots of good normal people going for him and we can't just be hateful towards half the country" but the media just played the one sentence and interpreted it as "100% of Trump's supporters are deplorable and you should spit on them." Which was the opposite of the actual speech.
Yeah, that dishonest misrepresentation of Hillary does feel similar to what happened with Bernie.
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They voted blue all over the place in 2018. Michigan and Pennsylvania look good for Biden, but Wisconsin is going to be very close. There’s a larger chance that Arizona votes Dem than Wisconsin.
Hell, Florida looks to flip, and if Trumpy can't get Florida than he's in deep shit.
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@Cyan:
Hell, Florida looks to flip, and if Trumpy can't get Florida than he's in deep shit.
I take Florida polls with a grain of salt. They always underpoll Floribama and Broward doesn’t know how to count votes. Gillum had a fairly comfortable lead on Election Day, but still lost.
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At least there is some good news in Trump's reelection chances, as it sounds like some voters over 65 are flipping on Trump due to Covid19 response. Think that may actually win Biden the election.
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No it doesn't… why would he have pushed her to run in 2016 if he didn't believe a woman could become president?
Did you even read my actual post? You quoted and replied to everything, but you clearly didn't actually read it.
What a person says and believes on a normal day under calm circumstances isn't always what a person says or thinks in a different context. Humans are funny that way.
Just from personal experience, anyone that has been on this forum long enough has certainly seen me blow up on bad days and say things I wouldn't normally say or even think. And thats without the stress and scrutiny and pressure of a presidential campaign.
When we see all the insane Biden gaffes we though "how could anyone vote for that?", but it turns out the average voter just hasn't seen a single one of those videos. The insane shit that Biden says just doesn't matter at all,
Because if you actually have looked at anything, and not just a meme, it DOESN'T matter.
For the umpteenth time, Biden has, and has always had, a speech impediment. He's been trained his entire life to switch words and phrases if something isn't coming out fast enough, which is what leads to the awkward soundbites. This is not new or something that started happening recently or a sign of dementia, and its why no credible news source spends time on it.
If you actually watch clips in context, like an actual five or ten minutes of speech, for more than thirty seconds at a time that just highlight the gaffe, you see that he's just fine for like 98% of his speechifying.
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All I'll say is good luck to biden in November. For as much as people seem to think the youth vote doesn't matter, you still need at least some of us to come out for you. It's a fairy tale to believe only old folks are required to win elections, especially when most old people lean conservative. And if you can't offer us anything, then why would any of us show up for you?
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Because you do need SOME of us. You can't win on your own, and it's foolish to push an entire voting block away, especially now.
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I mean if Biden loses by a narrow defeat where young people could have helped? Next election they will double down on not bothering with young people. And that will keep happening again and again until they actually are a reason someone wins.
Plus the offer here is progressive policy and good change vs none. If young people can't see that, it's time for them to grow up.
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@Dorobō:
I mean if Biden loses by a narrow defeat where young people could have helped? Next election they will double down on not bothering with young people. And that will keep happening again and again until they actually are a reason someone wins.
Plus the offer here is progressive policy and good change vs none. If young people can't see that, it's time for them to grow up.
That's genius thinking, lol. Tell young people to fuck off when you need them most. Genius!
"Hey we need the young people to come out for us so we can win an election. Should we offer them universal healthcare? Affordable higher education? Legalized marijuana? An immediate end to the illegal wars?"
"Nah, fuck 'em. Might be able to try a green new deal though. If it's not too much trouble for us and doesn't upset our donors too much.". -
@The:
And if you can't offer us anything, then why would any of us show up for you?
If people don't participate in the process, then why should they be offered anything?
Even then, I'm not sure what Biden is supposed to be offering to get people since any moves he makes are just deemed "not enough"; like expanding Medicare to sixty and forgiving a lot of student debt. That would benefit a lot of people, would set the stage for future expansions of both programs, and is infinitely more than you'll ever get from the GOP.
I guess it's supposed to be every single position Bernie takes but his platform is clearly less popular with the base than his supporters think.
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If people don't participate in the process, then why should they be offered anything?
Even then, I'm not sure what Biden is supposed to be offering to get people since any moves he makes are just deemed "not enough"; like expanding Medicare to sixty and forgiving a lot of student debt. That would benefit a lot of people, would set the stage for future expansions of both programs, and is infinitely more than you'll ever get from the GOP.
I guess it's supposed to be every single position Bernie takes but his platform is clearly less popular with the base than his supporters think.
A lot of people around my age (I'm 24) just don't want middling change around the edges. We want things to get better. I used to think we stayed home because people like biden didn't offer us anything, but now I think we're just lazy. And we'll get what we deserve because of it. The point still stands though. If we don't get anything, why should we participate?
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@The:
A lot of people around my age (I'm 24) just don't want middling change around the edges. We want things to get better.
People's willingness to accept absolutely nothing of what they want rather than any progress is baffling to me. Putting aside the fact that they're actually likely to lose more through inaction thanks to SCOTUS, "Sure, that would help some people but good does it do me?" is a hell of a position for people who call themselves progressives to take.
The point still stands though. If we don't get anything, why should we participate?
That's a ouroborous of self-defeatism.
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@The:
The point still stands though. If we don't get anything, why should we participate?
"Why should we contribute to getting kids out of cages, replacing RGB, Thomas, and Breyer with people who aren't 35 year old neo-fascists, expanding Medicare and Medicaid, and in general have the government run by someone who isn't a imbecilic narcissist if WE don't get anything out of it?" and other hits by the Not Me, Us camp.
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@The:
A lot of people around my age (I'm 24) just don't want middling change around the edges. We want things to get better. I used to think we stayed home because people like biden didn't offer us anything, but now I think we're just lazy. And we'll get what we deserve because of it. The point still stands though. If we don't get anything, why should we participate?
I don't normally speak up in here because politics is truthfully something I don't find enjoyable to discuss, but I have kind of strong feelings about this one. And this is speaking as a fellow young person (26, will be 27 at the time of the election). So for why progressive young people, or even non-young people, should participate…
Honestly, I think a problem that a lot of young people have these days is wanting too much instant gratification. In the political sense, that manifests as, they want things to get better now, want a President who will start enacting changes that directly benefit them and their own right now. Certainly, I at least do agree that sooner is better, and that it's a shame we couldn't get a more progressive candidate this time around. In terms of their views and policies, Bernie or Warren definitely would have been my preference over Biden, too.
But as things worked out, Biden is our candidate, and just flipping the table, yelling "FUCK THE ESTABLISHMENT!", and refusing to vote on principle of not getting one of the candidates who most shares our views is the wrong approach. Refusing to vote for the candidate who has the best chance of beating Trump on some so-called "principled stand"–either by voting Green Party or, more commonly, refusing to go out and vote at all--is just going to make it that much easier for Trump to win again. In fact, refusing to go out and vote at all is harmful in more ways than one, because if you're not voting for your Senators and Representatives either, that also makes it easier for conservative candidates to win more seats in Congress, and thus easier for Trump to enact more of his godawful policies.
Liberals and progressives--young and older alike--need to move on from such disappointment, be pragmatic about this, and see the bigger picture. While Biden's probably not going to enact many of the changes we'd really like to see, he, at least, will be a step in the right direction, and create a better foundation for a hopefully-more-progressive candidate who succeeds him to build on. Therefore, yes, we might not get those changes yet, but if Biden is President, they're a whole lot less out of reach than with Trump, who, with four more years, will take us many steps in the wrong direction, and it'll take a lot longer to try to fix it. Repeatedly taking the all-or-nothing attitude of "Nope, the candidate we got this time isn't good enough for me, so I'm staying home…nope, still not good enough, not voting...nope, still not satisfied" makes those who do so complacent in far worse candidates winning instead, and will make it that much harder to actually get this country going in the direction we want it to.
So that's why progressives should participate: to increase the chances of getting what we want, if not now, then at least sometime in the foreseeable future.
And Bernie, Warren, and other progressive candidates who dropped out and now endorse Biden know this. Unlike some of their more hard-core supporters who refuse to back anyone else who isn't them, they themselves know that Trump winning again is the worst possible option for positive progress in this country, and are willing to throw in with whoever has the best chance of defeating him in the election. I hope their aforementioned supporters come to realize this, too.
TL;DR: Young progressives (or any other age) shouldn't treat this like a "now or not at all situation" where we refuse to vote if we can't have the candidate we want right this minute; we need to be willing to play "the long game", understand that a gradual process is far more likely to breed long-term success than someone who actively undoes progress already made, and be willing to settle for the former for the time being in order to stop the latter at all costs. We don't have to love Biden, but we have to realize that stopping Trump comes first and foremost.