It just occurred to me that if DD is a puppetmaster(Devil Fruit) then it'll really suit his role as King seeing how things are being played out.
One Piece 721 : Rebecca and Mr. Soldier
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Isn't there like, at least one per volume or something?
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The problem with this is that it goes against what we see in the manga. You're essentially saying that, sure, for a logia it cuts their real body be it magma, ice, fire, liquid, solid, sticky, smushy, but for a paramecia it's just a matter of having more power, power enough to hurt their heightened defenses. Otherwise you need to elaborate on why rubber or diamond defense is somehow lost but still there but not quite but it still hurts but not as much maybe kinda?
Before I go further, if it's not haki then you are saying that Oda created in-world sword techniques that do like-for-like the same thing as haki but aren't haki. Why? What's the point?
Despite my above and below, I can see where you are coming from. Did you see my post from yesterday on a similar topic? ^^ Inserted above.
This introduces another unnecessary complexity, that Zoro learned the breath of iron and rock and leaf all at once and apparently learned Kuma's body's material during the timeskip, but somehow he and perhaps Mihawk can't comprehend the breath of something like diamond?
So basically my point is we have two choices: one, that haki magically fails to work on Jozu while it works on every other Devil Fruit user, or two, that it does work on him and just like in [[URL="http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17709/one-piece_ch570_by_franky-house/8"]this scene] Mihawk simply wasn't using the appropriate technique or concentration of haki to cut him because the attack was meant for someone with a regular body.
Basically, the reason why I don't think it can be Haki is that you're explanation makes sense for allowing Zoro to cut Daz Bones, but not real steel. If he could noly cut Daz bones by treating his body as a normal human one, then cutting real steel should still be impossible. To explain further, the breath in my mind can't cut logias because no matter how hard you swing at smoke, it's never going to harm it. Haki can cut through logias because the blade can easily move through an intangible body. Thus, you can easily cut through smoke, it normally just reforms, but since Haki makes the effect of cutting the same as if it had been done to a normal human body, it can't reform. Basically an attack only hits what it would normally hit, but it deals damage to what it hits as if it was normal. So since you're not cutting through diamond to hit what's inside, only the surface would get the damage from a haki attack.
Also, my suggestion isn't that they couldn't cut through diamond or Kuma because they couldn't comprehend it's breath, but rather that comprehending it's breath alone is not enough to cut it. It's called the breath of ALL things, so I assume he can use it on anything. I don't think the Breath of all things is really a swordsman specific skill either for that matter, just one that swordsman have an easier time taking advantage of since they have a tool that lets them exercise that precision and power far better than using your fist. So even if a guy tries to karate chop steel with the breath of all things, he probably wouldn't be able to simply because he lacks the power even if he has the technique (not to mention a sharp blade is going to be more precise by nature).
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I was going to write a reply to brennen. But it would have been very similar to this. So I will just quote it. Whoops, forgot to quote. Well just pretend I was quoting Aaron one post up.
You don't need haki to cut rocks or trees or paper. So why would you need it for steel or diamond.
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If anything, Cavendish eating that flower petal would be symbolic of Rebecca's eventual breakdown.
This is One Piece, not Fairy Tail. Emotions like "furious rage" aren't enough to overcome a clearly superior foe.
Perhaps 'furious rage' isn't the best choice of words, but we've seen characters in One Piece step up, change their attitudes and take things seriously when push comes to shove or someone pisses them off.
I meant when the characters really push themselves to the limit to overcome their foes and protect the ones they want to protect. Like chapters 87, 192, 427, 482.
And besides, isn't this manga all about overcoming superior foes on the way to the One Piece?
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Shanks also cant cut diamond
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Shanks also cant cut diamond
i really think that none of the swordsman in one piece can cut diamond.. for now until zoro do it..
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You don't need haki to cut rocks or trees or paper. So why would you need it for steel or diamond.
Basically, the reason why I don't think it can be Haki is that you're explanation makes sense for allowing Zoro to cut Daz Bones, but not real steel. If he could noly cut Daz bones by treating his body as a normal human one, then cutting real steel should still be impossible.
Did you read my quoted post from yesterday? I specifically address that point by suggesting that swordsmen use/create techniques that have their own unique application or manifestation of haki. It's less about forcing haki into the equation and more about Oda tying things together, which he does frequently. Like some of CP9's forms, for example. Or Mantra. Really though, you dodged some of my questions and I think missed the point, which I cover below.
To explain further, the breath in my mind can't cut logias because no matter how hard you swing at smoke, it's never going to harm it. Basically an attack only hits what it would normally hit, but it deals damage to what it hits as if it was normal. So since you're not cutting through diamond to hit what's inside, only the surface would get the damage from a haki attack.
The explanation we were given had nothing to do with swords. Both Robin and Rayleigh state that using haki is how you combat ability users, by attacking their "true body" and bypassing their natural defense. This point is visually stressed against Luffy, who is a rubber human but is being hit and hurt as if he wasn't rubber. So your suggestion about reforming and passing through and whatnot– unless I'm misunderstanding you-- goes against the principle outlined above. With haki a sword can cut the true body of a blademan, or a diamondman, or a steelman, or a glassman, or whoever they are and whatever their defense is. So, given that, at this point a 'technique' that cuts metal but not a logia is obsolete because for the purpose of the narrative it's the latter that is a problem, not the former. Make sense?
Edit: We should also consider taking this to either the Devil Fruit, Haki, or even New World threads. I can move posts after your next reply.
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Just a thought. But what happens if you attack a user with haki who uses his own haki to counter-attack the effect
Like when Vista slashed Akainu in the throat, he commented on how annoying haki users are. But visually it looked just like when anyone else slashed him.
Sure didn't look like he hit his true body or what you want to call it.
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@wolfwoof:
Just a thought. But what happens if you attack a user with haki who uses his own haki to counter-attack the effect
Like when Vista slashed Akainu in the throat, he commented on how annoying haki users are. But visually it looked just like when anyone else slashed him.
Sure didn't look like he hit his true body or what you want to call it.
I always filled in the blanks there as "Damn Haki users… [they're really annoying because I have to make an effort to defend with my own haki, which I just did, if I don't want to actually get hurt]." Or "I can still reform because I defended with my own haki, but this cut still stings a little more given that Vista is a haki user. Yowchies."
Something like that.
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@wolfwoof:
Just a thought. But what happens if you attack a user with haki who uses his own haki to counter-attack the effect
Like when Vista slashed Akainu in the throat, he commented on how annoying haki users are. But visually it looked just like when anyone else slashed him.
Sure didn't look like he hit his true body or what you want to call it.
Always thought that the two scars on Akainu's neck were from Marco and Vista. They just got sewed meaning it's recent and they both on his neck.
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@wolfwoof:
Just a thought. But what happens if you attack a user with haki who uses his own haki to counter-attack the effect
Like when Vista slashed Akainu in the throat, he commented on how annoying haki users are. But visually it looked just like when anyone else slashed him.
Sure didn't look like he hit his true body or what you want to call it.
I think its something along the line of: Logia users use COA to be more invincible.. and the attacker must use stronger COA to be able to hit him.. even though Akainu is obviously stronger, it is still pain in the ass to shroud yourself with strong haki to be immune from Vista&marco COA attacks
Sure.. Raylegh didn't mention anything about that, but I think he only explained the basics of haki, he didn't explain stuff like the haki invisible wall the admiral and zoro used… so yeah, it could be the case.
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@Monkey:
The only part in the manga that supports what you're saying is the Kaku scene.
The Alabasta duel scene VERY CLEARLY shows how Zoro cuts steel as being a facet of listening to the voice of all things. Even more clearly than I thought when I first posted in response. Zoro is quite literally talking about the breathing of inanimate objects. This being some THIRTY volumes before Rayleigh mentioned the concept openly with Roger and then another ten volumes before Haki is explained with that as part of it.And again, there is a severe plot hole with going with the Kaku scene (very vague dialogue might I add), because as I said, it's a one trick thing. If it's all about choosing to cut something, and you learn to do this. Congrats, you can cut anything. It has nothing to do with the substance by that logic.
You can't simultaneously argue that Mihawk can do it, and that Zoro can't. By this logic Zoro learned to cut everything in Alabasta, and the last exchange between him and Mr.1 about diamond doesn't even make any sense. So by that logic Zoro ALREADY can cut diamond.If however it's a matter of learning a higher degree of Haki concentration for more challenging targets of a slice. That would work. And really fall in line with everything else in the series.
I'm not sure if Zoro can cut everything. That is unclear to me. And I am not saying Mihawk can cut everything but in theory the "breath of all things" technique can easily explain what happened in Marineford. Maybe their are certain levels? I do not know. In the real world, it is about technique and skill. Strength and speed helps but technique is what makes you a great fighter. (boxing, swords, etc). I for one think, Mihawk is at the pinnacle of swordsmanship and can cut anything tangible in the proper circumstance.
I remember when Zoro first cut steel, people we are asking if he could just win every match by just cutting the opponent' sword in half. The first time he actually did this was in Fishman Island, if I recall correctly. So there was a big gap in time and skill for Zoro.
The flashback of Zoro's Master not cutting the leaf but cutting the rock. I think that explains the Kaku fight. We don't know exactly what the "breath of all things" can do, so that is where we disagree. I think its a skill and may be even some version of Haki. Its tricky because it wasn't explained to us and only bits and pieces were shown to us. It Is still a mystery to a degree.
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Real quick, my understanding is that this topic revolves around two things, Mihawk slashing Jose el Diamante and Zoro eventually cutting diamond. Problem I have with this is that Jozu's diamond body is the result of his Devil Fruit, and imbuing a weapon with haki allows you to cut his "diamond body" as if it were normal and not diamon. So Mihawk cutting Jozu or Zoro cutting Shiryu with the diamond fruit wouldn't mean they cut diamond at all, just that they used haki to slash their opponents' real body. They'd literally have to cut actual diamonds to prove the other point. Right? Why is nobody pointing this out?
I'm not sure what dlo52346435's stance is, but I think it's obvious the portion in bold above is what's the case in the manga. I just wonder if for a swordsman, specific 'techniques' have their own unique application or manifestation of haki, which is specifically why they can cut things like metal or possibly diamond with perhaps less haki 'concentration'. Completely irrelevent though, sorry.
Did you read my quoted post from yesterday? I specifically address that point by suggesting that swordsmen use/create techniques that have their own unique application or manifestation of haki. It's less about forcing haki into the equation and more about Oda tying things together, which he does frequently. Like some of CP9's forms, for example. Or Mantra. Really though, you dodged some of my questions and I think missed the point, which I cover below.
The explanation we were given had nothing to do with swords. Both Robin and Rayleigh state that using haki is how you combat ability users, by attacking their "true body" and bypassing their natural defense. This point is visually stressed against Luffy, who is a rubber human but is being hit and hurt as if he wasn't rubber. So your suggestion about reforming and passing through and whatnot– unless I'm misunderstanding you-- goes against the principle outlined above. With haki a sword can cut the true body of a blademan, or a diamondman, or a steelman, or a glassman, or whoever they are and whatever their defense is. So, given that, at this point a 'technique' that cuts metal but not a logia is obsolete because for the purpose of the narrative it's the latter that is a problem, not the former. Make sense?
Edit: We should also consider taking this to either the Devil Fruit, Haki, or even New World threads. I can move posts after your next reply.
I dont disagree (in principle) to what you are saying in the first quote. From everything we know you should be able to use CoA to cut jozu because it will bypass his diamondy protection. Now in actuallity i dont know if it would be that simple because that would seem to render the diamond fruit pretty useless against a haki user, and Oda might not want that.
But where i do disagree with you is on the "Breath of all things" and cutting Das and or steel. I believe that Zoro gained a perception ability that lets him cut steel. However, he is only able to cut steel because his swordsmanship/physical ability/sword are of a high enough quality to allow it. I think we can all agree that Zoro is not currently at a level that can cut diamond. So this would mean that although he can cut Jozu, because he has a DF, he cant cut a real diamond.
Oh and another thing. Wouldnt the hardest material to cut be seastone not diamonds?
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I just remembered that if Jozu uses haki + his fruit = Black diamond, oh shit can't wait to see this.
Jozu will be the toughest guy to beat diamond + COA haki DAMN. Now I see why Oda used the excuse of distraction to make Aokiji beat Jozu. -
Always thought that the two scars on Akainu's neck were from Marco and Vista. They just got sewed meaning it's recent and they both on his neck.
Where are these scars? I can't find them :S
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This post is deleted!
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! @wolfwoof:
! > Just a thought. But what happens if you attack a user with haki who uses his own haki to counter-attack the effect. Like when Vista slashed Akainu in the throat, he commented on how annoying haki users are. But visually it looked just like when anyone else slashed him. Sure didn't look like he hit his true body or what you want to call it.
! @CCC:
! > I always filled in the blanks there as "Damn Haki users… [they're really annoying because I have to make an effort to defend with my own haki, which I just did, if I don't want to actually get hurt]." Or "I can still reform because I defended with my own haki, but this cut still stings a little more given that Vista is a haki user. Yowchies." Something like that.
! @themick:
! > Now in actuallity i dont know if it would be that simple because that would seem to render the diamond fruit pretty useless against a haki user, and Oda might not want that.Took these replies [[URL="http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=19200&page=268&p=3013382#post3013382"]here].
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http://images.wikia.com/onepiece/images/a/a8/Sakazuki's_Tattoos.png
I never noticed those before either.RAAAADDDDD.
I really hope those are from Vista/Marco. -
No chapter this morning? I didn't see any kind of notice…
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Oda's on break this week.
Yeah, thanks to the way I read Manga, I didn't see the notice at the end of the Chapter. Silly me.
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Well at least you had some time of blissful ignorance where you thought the chapter was coming.
Everyone else has had to knuckle down and scrape through the 2 weeks.
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really impresed by oda's ability to write characters who appear and dont do anything but show up later and have relevance. real respect to the people who can see through the fog and come up with things for the characters who havent done stuff yet to do in One Piece. not sure what's coming next, but i have a feeling it's gonna involve some guys who were in the last chapter. or maybe chapter 1. hopefully mihawk that guy rules.
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Oda's on break this week.
One Piece has been in Weekly Jump around 27 of the 38 weeks so far this year. Roughly. Not going to act angry or entitled but that's a record for Oda right?
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Still not using a sword. Not saying she's a swordswoman, but that's an entirely different story.
It's the same thing for Daz Bones ;_; but he is a swordsman
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I always thought Daz was a supa
manmodel. -
Yeah, thanks to the way I read Manga, I didn't see the notice at the end of the Chapter. Silly me.
F***. I NEVER notice it. Damnit.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
One Piece has been in Weekly Jump around 27 of the 38 weeks so far this year. Roughly. Not going to act angry or entitled but that's a record for Oda right?
Well, to be fair, he was sick for a while.
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Can you imagine Messi playing football than saying. I need a break now for this week. And everybody saying. Let him, he deserves it, he is scoring goals like crazy… I rather see him score loads every time he plays than to see him not preforming 100% every match or god forbid getting injured.
And than simply doing it throughout the yearRight...
Some people need a break and some people dont. Oda is one of those who needs it. You can't take it against him, you take the whole package. But no need to make excuses for his breaks as well.
Some are extra ordinary stuff because of ilness and what not, some are holidays or double jump stuff and what notAnd there are those where Oda is being Oda taking his time to get stuff done properly and in his own way.
There are mangaka who take way more breaks at least a lot longer ones...
And there are mangaka who take lessHe is Oda and this is his way of doing things. We have known the guy for like 10 years + it is nothing new. No need to get upset about it, but no need to come in and defend the guy as well.
Are you allowed to wish he didnt take "so many" ? Of course you are. So too bad he took a break again
P.S.
I reread this chapter for probably the 5th time now and still cant get enough. It is simply beautiful
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One Piece has been in Weekly Jump around 27 of the 38 weeks so far this year. Roughly. Not going to act angry or entitled but that's a record for Oda right?
you mean to say that he takes more breaks..? omg thanks god i started reading manga only this year.. :p
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This thread died the day it started.
Oh well.
Onward to next week.
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@krule274:
This thread died the day it started.
Oh well.Onward to next week.
True… one reason why I've not been very active in this thread
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Well, to be fair, he was sick for a while.
Not doubting that for a moment. God fobid Oda if he becomes the next Hunter X Hunter author.
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@Holy:
really impresed by oda's ability to write characters who appear and dont do anything but show up later and have relevance. real respect to the people who can see through the fog and come up with things for the characters who havent done stuff yet to do in One Piece. not sure what's coming next, but i have a feeling it's gonna involve some guys who were in the last chapter. or maybe chapter 1. hopefully mihawk that guy rules.
Hey miss, I got rid of the annoying white background
Not perfect but hey, better than before :ninja:
soooo… I hear u have porno stash and looking to share :ninja:
no one piece =\ at least BB was awesome this week <3
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Next chap law gets defeated/captured calling it. Cavendish ditches block d. (Trying to get it back on topic)
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I think Law will manage to get Caesar back on board the Sunny before he finally falls.
I could see him teleporting the entire ship away from Dofla and then collapsing from overexertion.
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I think Law will manage to get Caesar back on board the Sunny before he finally falls.
I could see him teleporting the entire ship away from Dofla and then collapsing from overexertion.
teleporting the ship where? law doesn't have rooms scattered across the country like punk hazard so I doubt it.
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teleporting the ship where? law doesn't have rooms scattered across the country like punk hazard so I doubt it.
Hmm true, we don't know what kind of setup Law might have though.
I could at least see him teleporting it away from Dofla to give them a headstart and get away with Caesar, if he gets Caesar back then the whole plan is buggered.
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I think Law will manage to get Caesar back on board the Sunny before he finally falls.
I could see him teleporting the entire ship away from Dofla and then collapsing from overexertion.
Well if that happens then it would allow Luffy to fight Doflamingo by himself, rather than the 2v1 Luffy and Law vs Doffy confrontation that some have been suggesting.
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Hmm true, we don't know what kind of setup Law might have though.
I could at least see him teleporting it away from Dofla to give them a headstart and get away with Caesar, if he gets Caesar back then the whole plan is buggered.
Or he could teleport Dofla away from them first…
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That could also work I suppose, really my point is I don't think Law will lose/be taken until he's somehow gotten Caesar away from Doffy.
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Or he could teleport Dofla away from them first…
I doubt that Doflamingo can't resist Law's ability or interrupt him somehow.
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Blindy is still there. I think a change of heart will happen and he helps law Once he realizes dofla is the real criminal. Plus if it comes down to it instead of losing Caesars heart he could just smash it and dofla loses ceasar for good and he is really fucked
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
That could also work I suppose, really my point is I don't think Law will lose/be taken until he's somehow gotten Caesar away from Doffy.
Maybe dofla will get ceasar back but loses the factory and loses his country to gnomes plus luffy wins the Mera fruit.
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So for a change of pace, and I don't want this to become a power levels argument, isn't there a worthwhile argument to be made for Rebecca not being as weak as most assume? I'm not good at predicting winners for things like this, though somehow I've managed so far, but while I initially assumed Cavendish would win his first round and lose his second, this chapter is making me think twice. I feel she should win to piss the crowd off more; that losing already would please and appease the crowd's hate before it has a chance to soak in. Or another way of asking the initial question, isn't it possible we are overestimating Cabbage? I'll bullet list this out to get things started:
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I initially wrote Cabbage off when he said he "made it this far without exerting effort" or whatever. I figured he'd win his first round only; he's just begging to be humiliated.
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His clash with Forehead only shows us that his status isn't just for show, while making his eventual match more interesting / challenging.
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Most importantly, in the same chapter that Luffy very easily takes down a conflicted* Rebecca, he very casually stops** Cabbage in his tracks.
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Regarding the match commentaries, Cabbage knew who Lucy was, Rebecca did not. Her shock and Cabbage's lack thereof shouldn't be compared.
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Dialog backs up that Rebecca wasn't attacking Luffy seriously.
** Cabbage appears to be very serious when attacking Luffy, yet Luffy stops his sword thrust with his bare hands.
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So for a change of pace, and I don't want this to become a power levels argument, isn't there a worthwhile argument to be made for Rebecca not being as weak as most assume? I'm not good at predicting winners for things like this, though somehow I've managed so far, but while I initially assumed Cavendish would win his first round and lose his second, this chapter is making me think twice. I feel she should win to piss the crowd off more; that losing already would please and appease the crowd's hate before it has a chance to soak in. Or another way of asking the initial question, isn't it possible we are overestimating Cabbage? I'll bullet list this out to get things started:
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I initially wrote Cabbage off when he said he "made it this far without exerting effort" or whatever. I figured he'd win his first round only; he's just begging to be humiliated.
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His clash with Forehead only shows us that his status isn't just for show, while making his eventual match more interesting / challenging.
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Most importantly, in the same chapter that Luffy very easily takes down a conflicted* Rebecca, he very casually stops** Cabbage in his tracks.
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Regarding the match commentaries, Cabbage knew who Lucy was, Rebecca did not. Her shock and Cabbage's lack thereof shouldn't be compared.
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Dialog backs up that Rebecca wasn't attacking Luffy seriously.
** Cabbage appears to be very serious when attacking Luffy, yet Luffy stops his sword thrust with his bare hands.
Well he didn't go after Luffy when Rebecca grabbed him. So i'm guessing, that he got the picture. A tired and hungry Luffy, blocked his sword stab with his bare hands. Well anyways, I hope D block shows some good fights. Damask, fighting lion and the rest of those named D block contestants might put up a good fight or show that Rebecca or Cavendish is a cut above them.
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i think luffy will distract cavendish so rebecca can get the win
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I think if Rebecca wins, she'll do it through sheer determination and resolve. I could see Cavendish beating her in terms of ability, but her holding on until she manages to get a clean strike in. Regardless of if she beats Cavendish or not, I can't see her having an easy time with it
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So for a change of pace, and I don't want this to become a power levels argument, isn't there a worthwhile argument to be made for Rebecca not being as weak as most assume? I'm not good at predicting winners for things like this, though somehow I've managed so far, but while I initially assumed Cavendish would win his first round and lose his second, this chapter is making me think twice. I feel she should win to piss the crowd off more; that losing already would please and appease the crowd's hate before it has a chance to soak in. Or another way of asking the initial question, isn't it possible we are overestimating Cabbage? I'll bullet list this out to get things started:
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I initially wrote Cabbage off when he said he "made it this far without exerting effort" or whatever. I figured he'd win his first round only; he's just begging to be humiliated.
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His clash with Forehead only shows us that his status isn't just for show, while making his eventual match more interesting / challenging.
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Most importantly, in the same chapter that Luffy very easily takes down a conflicted* Rebecca, he very casually stops** Cabbage in his tracks.
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Regarding the match commentaries, Cabbage knew who Lucy was, Rebecca did not. Her shock and Cabbage's lack thereof shouldn't be compared.
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Dialog backs up that Rebecca wasn't attacking Luffy seriously.
** Cabbage appears to be very serious when attacking Luffy, yet Luffy stops his sword thrust with his bare hands.
Bartolomeo already did the job of the fan "unfavorite" advancing, though.
Also, Rebecca's situation seems very similar to Bellamy's. They both had a talk with Luffy before their respective matches, with the talk involving differing goals in relation to Doflamingo. In fact, many people here believed Bellamy would win his block based on the fact that we knew more about him than Bartolomeo. We know how that ended.
There's also the thing with Bartolomeo and Cavendish being foils. They were introduced by name at the same time and both heavily contrast with each other. It would be weird if one advanced and the other not considering they're both equally important.
Of course, my whole argument comes from a writing perspective.
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