@Aohige_AP:
Well, it's entirely subjective so I wouldn't debate it.
But in all fairness, Law's time for such isn't this arc. It's obviously in the Doflamingo arc, if there is one that's Law centric, with childhood flashbacks and emotional ties.
Wiper being a single arc ally had it in the arc he debuted, Law's version is probably to come.
Yeah. But as I said, "He'll get better!" is not an incentive to get invested in a character for me.
Come to think of it, in addition to the scenes I mentioned, Wiper also had the adorable flashback moment of "If we ring the bell, will Noland hear it?", as well as real compassion for his comrades, and a devotion to his ideals so strong that his plan basically was to suicide bomb Enel.
Hey, why doesn't Wiper get any love?
@Aohige_AP:
He does have swagtastic character to him though, and you may not like such archetypes, but it's damn popular.
I know. This of all series has just been so blissfully devoid of that overused trope that I rebel against its introduction I guess.
@Thousand:
You misunderstood that scene entirely. It's not about Law giving Doflamingo the middle finger and how everything is in the palm of his hand (at least not just). It's about Law stating the facts, the time of the old is over. It's an inevitable truth. Big panels showing everyone involved in the turmoil. Law is only a part of that. It's something that needed to be said and Law was the best character to say it. It would never have worked with Luffy
Even if the “New age” covers more people than just Law, the only one actively counteract Doffys designs, the orchestrator of the whole PH incident, and the one saying “Fuck you!” to Doflamingo, is Law.
@Thousand:
And? That was kinda what Oda was going for.
My point was that events are oh so much more satisfying when its 100% applicable to the free will of Luffy and his crew- not when its just doing what someone else wants/says.
@Thousand:
Luffy's not being manipulated. Law disclosed his plan to him albeit not in detail but Luffy knows what he's in for and how much they're going to wreck shit up. He's not a puppet, he's an ally. It's not like Luffy's being tricked into fighting Caeser to suit Law's purposes. He owed Law a favor and decided to help him out. And now he personally wants to do it too.
Yes, Luffy is now invested, which took its sweet time but is great. But the whole thing was set in motion because Law said “Hey Luffy. Do this thing for me?” “Okay, sure, I’m not really invested, but okay”. That’s just…so not the Luffy I love. The Luffy I love is the proactive one, the one who does decides on his own to do something. And its not comparable to a close companion asking Luffy to help with a completely despairing situation, its just “hey Luffy I got this intricate plan all figured out, and it was ready to go even without anyone showing up, but since you’re here, wanna help out?”
@Thousand:
Wrong. No really, just straight up wrong. Don't know what else to say other than I severely disagree.
Really, I think Bleach has given you a severe complex about bishie characters. I can relate. I'm the first to jump on pretentious characters and stories (See Prometheus, Dark Knight Rises, Final Fantasy 8). But I truly find Law interesting. Not every character has to be a goofy exaggeration with overtly silly quirks and over-the-top facial expressions.
Forgive Oda for trying to experiment a little and try new things. He didn't make Law's character like this because it's an easy way to draw in fans (because like he even needs to). He did it because he wanted to have this wild card character who you're always second guessing about. At least that's what I believe. But come on, give Oda some credit.
This doesn’t really describe Laws character in any interesting way, nor refute my points about him. ANY mangaka could have thought him up. Theres just so little to differentiate him from the masses. “Oooh, what are Laws goals, so mysterious” is not enough to make me care. Sorry, but it just isn’t.
@Thousand:
The characterization of Law is subtle but it amounts to more than just "I'm so cool, yeah baby". There IS more to him than meets the eye. From the first time we were introduced to him, we're stricken by how different he looks and is from conventional OP characters, we're told about how he's this ruthless pirate that has done unspeakable things.
So its sort of reverse psychology? Laws design and personality are so bland that it makes him interesting? Hot dog, Sengokus fanbase must be enormous then, and I guess that makes Mihawk the most exciting Shichibukai of the lot. No wait, his Antonio Banderas look is sorta creative, he can’t count.
@Thousand:
But then he does totally unexpected things like having Polar Bears in his crew,
This is the flimsiest excuse to “deepen” Law ever. Depth by character association.
“Crocodile is so interesting, he has Mr 2 in his staff” “Spandam is so interesting, he has Fukuro in his staff” Etc. Having weird shit in your crew is everyday life in One Piece.
@Thousand:
randomly saving a slave and letting him join his crew, saves Luffy's life at great risk to his own life. What he does is always off the wall be it not charging straight into the New World and going out of his way to become a Shickibukai.
Classic “Does what he feels in the moment” laid back “badass” character. But I actually preferred Law this way. He was never my favourite supernova, but back when he was just kind of a chill, clever stoner-looking dude at Sabaody I didn’t mind him. Back then, he always had this relaxed expression on his face. SUPER SERIOUS SMIRKING I HAVE A PLAN MASTERMIND LAW is a different story; almost a different character, even.
@Thousand:
Then we learn he has a dark history with Doflamingo (which probably sucked for him) and that he wants to stir the New World into chaos. It's not that we don't know his substance. It's that we've gotten hints of something deeper, gleams of it but we haven't seen the whole thing but it is there.
So Laws substance is: He’s mysterious, we don’t know his actual substance yet.
@Thousand:
Plus he is legitimately cool. And not just because he's so composed but the shit he does is pretty insane and crazy.
If there was a panel of him dissecting the hearts out of living pirates? Sure. But all I see is Strength Feats and Plans. What did he do that was “Insane”
@Thousand:
Who cares? Are you really nitpicking on this?
I care because when someone is established as a master planner, it makes them look shallow and bad when their plan easily falls apart and they aren’t called on it.
@Thousand:
Him getting captured wasn't even part of the plan.
He made the chain switch specifically as a countermeasure to get captured. It’s a “Wow, Law is so smart!” moment that ultimately makes no sense, and thus undermines it.
@Thousand:
I'm talking about his plan as a whole. Which is capture Caeser, take a hold of SAD, use it for his own purposes and piss off Doflamingo and the other big fishes while he's at it.
Because he couldn't do it on his own or if he did, he didn't think he had a good chance of success. Which is why he went to Luffy for help. And where was it stated he wants to destroy the SAD? He just said he didn't want Doflamingo to have it anymore. Maybe he wants to use it for himself?
Law had absolutely no idea Luffy- nor anyone else-was coming. His plan was to do it himself, from the beginning. Or are you saying his plan was “reach Punk Hazard. Twiddle thumbs and hope for the best”?
And by “destroy SAD” I am referring to the fact that he just fucked up the SAD production room pretty decicively.
@Thousand:
They caught him leaving so he silenced them. Their pieces are probably ash by now.
He cut them into pieces. Right in front of a lab entrance. And left them there, not hiding them in any way. And its long established that people cut by Law are very much alive, and can reassemble themselves.
@Thousand:
Where was this stated?
Law: “Damn you Vergo! If you weren’t here, I had it all figured out how to get my heart back!
@Thousand:
But really, these are all nitpicks. His overall plan makes sense. It has a defined ending and ways planned out to accomplish his plan. It's much, much better than Aizen whose plan was I think to invade the Soul Palace or something and then wastes time chasing Ichigo's friends.
Theres a million places It could’ve failed, not the least of which is the assumption of asking Caesar and Monet politely not to alert Doflamingo of his presence would work. Which it didn’t. And would have killed him if he hadn’t lucked out and Smoker had arrived.
@Thousand:
His power is awesome, man. It''s not even about grabbing stuff. It's been used in clever and creative ways. I still don't know how Counter Shock works but looking forward to finding out. And it's ridiculously overpowered to what is fitting for a Shickibukai. You know, the same guys that can cut fucking mountains in half and nuke islands. These are the sort of things that should be expected from now on. Even Luffy is now capable of destroying an ISLAND SIZED boat.
Powers used to have a clearly defined base, and be restricted to uses of that core ability. Luffy stretches and that’s IT. He doesn’t summon rubber out of the ether or turn things rubbery upon a touch, he just stretches. Buggy JUST splits himself. Croc is JUST sand. And all have plenty of moves that yes, use this ONE power in creative ways.
With characters like Law and Hancock, its just a grab-bag clusterfuck of different things all in one fruit. Law can make stuff levitate, swap objects of different sizes, keep people alive without hearts, create electricity, teleport objects of a certain nature without swapping them for anything at all, swap minds, all because it falls under the vague notion of "Stuff you can do in an operation room". Theres nothing stopping Law from busting out his super technique "Pull The plug", where he instantly kills people by cutting their metaphysical life support. Because thats kinda doctor related.
@Thousand:
Vergo lost to him because he underestimated him severely thinking he was still dealing with the same snot nosed brat who probably pissed his pants in front of him. had he fought smartly, he would have probably won (and again, Oda did it this way for a reason not just because LAW IS SO COOL <3). The point is however he's not untouchable. We've seen him in moments of weakness. He's not a God. He almost lost to Smoker apart from the whoopings Vergo gave him.
I’ll give you that Smoker put up a decent effort, but he landed no hits, and lost fair and square. An the way this chapter presents it, its pretty clear that Oda wants to impress the notion of “Fuck you Vergo! You only won because you had my heart!”
@Thousand:
That's your prerogative to not like him (personally I think your reasoning for not liking him is shallow because he's NOT WACKY ENOUGH but whatever.
Oh come on now. Pearl had wackiness, as had Absalom the Nyanban bros, but you’re not gonna see me defend them as good characters…though at least they had something to set them apart. But surely you must get what I mean about OP characters? Law has none of the entertainment value of someone like Garp, no memorable design like Magellan, he has none of the heart of someone like, Bon, Bellemere, Gan Fall, Cobra, Kureha, Genzo, etc.
Hell, lets take Noland. Is he wacky? Nah. Super quirky personality? Nah. Extravagant design? Apart from his nose and the acorn, nah. But god damn if he isn’t a fucking excellent character, because I actually care about him. Law, despite his crew name, has no Heart to his character. And when you also lack design and personality, then theres not much left.
@Thousand:
And really, "what he stands for?" I don't think Oda made him to be the poster boy for bishie bait). But there is a reason why he's been getting all this screen-time which is intricately tied to the story.
Law doesn’t stand for evil calculated moves on Odas part. He stands for reaching for a character template from the Trope drawer.
@Thousand:
Again, your prerogative. I personally like Law and I'm interested in his plans and what his role in the story is as much as the emotional drama of the arc. But it's all there for a reason. Because Law is an important character for the future of the series, from the beginning, he was hyped up as being one of the more important SN. So of course Oda is going to build up his character. Luffy needs allies/rivals for the New World and some of them like Law or Hawkins or Kid need to be taken especially seriously. We'll have arcs dedicated to Drake and Kid, don't worry, they'll have their turn.
If Luffy arrives at Elbaf, or some other island new interesting island, but suddenly X Drake is there and all conversations sing the tune of KAIDOKAIDOKAIDOKAIDO oh theres original characters and interesting history and story potential here but KAIDOKAIDOKAIDOKAIDO I might thump something.
I don’t mind “the big picture” being updated, but can’t the arcs be their own thing first? Drum would have been awful if the namedroppings of Blackbeard, Ace and Gol D Roger had taken center stage. These last few chapters were good because we got connected to the PH specific drama, but largely it has been shafted for just buildup.
@Thousand:
While Law is integral to the story and the whole "We are the new generation who will replace the old" theme going on.
Doesn’t make his character and spotlight hogging here in the present any better.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Aohige_AP:
Well, it's entirely subjective so I wouldn't debate it.
But in all fairness, Law's time for such isn't this arc. It's obviously in the Doflamingo arc, if there is one that's Law centric, with childhood flashbacks and emotional ties.
Wiper being a single arc ally had it in the arc he debuted, Law's version is probably to come.
Yeah. But as I said, "He'll get better!" is not an incentive to get invested in a character for me.
Come to think of it, in addition to the scenes I mentioned, Wiper also had the adorable flashback moment of "If we ring the bell, will Noland hear it?", as well as real compassion for his comrades, and a devotion to his ideals so strong that his plan basically was to suicide bomb Enel.
Hey, why doesn't Wiper get any love?
@Aohige_AP:
He does have swagtastic character to him though, and you may not like such archetypes, but it's damn popular.
I know. This of all series has just been so blissfully devoid of that overused trope that I rebel against its introduction I guess.
@Thousand:
You misunderstood that scene entirely. It's not about Law giving Doflamingo the middle finger and how everything is in the palm of his hand (at least not just). It's about Law stating the facts, the time of the old is over. It's an inevitable truth. Big panels showing everyone involved in the turmoil. Law is only a part of that. It's something that needed to be said and Law was the best character to say it. It would never have worked with Luffy
Even if the “New age” covers more people than just Law, the only one actively counteract Doffys designs, the orchestrator of the whole PH incident, and the one saying “Fuck you!” to Doflamingo, is Law.
@Thousand:
And? That was kinda what Oda was going for.
My point was that events are oh so much more satisfying when its 100% applicable to the free will of Luffy and his crew- not when its just doing what someone else wants/says.
@Thousand:
Luffy's not being manipulated. Law disclosed his plan to him albeit not in detail but Luffy knows what he's in for and how much they're going to wreck shit up. He's not a puppet, he's an ally. It's not like Luffy's being tricked into fighting Caeser to suit Law's purposes. He owed Law a favor and decided to help him out. And now he personally wants to do it too.
Yes, Luffy is now invested, which took its sweet time but is great. But the whole thing was set in motion because Law said “Hey Luffy. Do this thing for me?” “Okay, sure, I’m not really invested, but okay”. That’s just…so not the Luffy I love. The Luffy I love is the proactive one, the one who does decides on his own to do something. And its not comparable to a close companion asking Luffy to help with a completely despairing situation, its just “hey Luffy I got this intricate plan all figured out, and it was ready to go even without anyone showing up, but since you’re here, wanna help out?”
@Thousand:
Wrong. No really, just straight up wrong. Don't know what else to say other than I severely disagree.
Really, I think Bleach has given you a severe complex about bishie characters. I can relate. I'm the first to jump on pretentious characters and stories (See Prometheus, Dark Knight Rises, Final Fantasy 8). But I truly find Law interesting. Not every character has to be a goofy exaggeration with overtly silly quirks and over-the-top facial expressions.
Forgive Oda for trying to experiment a little and try new things. He didn't make Law's character like this because it's an easy way to draw in fans (because like he even needs to). He did it because he wanted to have this wild card character who you're always second guessing about. At least that's what I believe. But come on, give Oda some credit.
This doesn’t really describe Laws character in any interesting way, nor refute my points about him. ANY mangaka could have thought him up. Theres just so little to differentiate him from the masses. “Oooh, what are Laws goals, so mysterious” is not enough to make me care. Sorry, but it just isn’t.
@Thousand:
The characterization of Law is subtle but it amounts to more than just "I'm so cool, yeah baby". There IS more to him than meets the eye. From the first time we were introduced to him, we're stricken by how different he looks and is from conventional OP characters, we're told about how he's this ruthless pirate that has done unspeakable things.
So its sort of reverse psychology? Laws design and personality are so bland that it makes him interesting? Hot dog, Sengokus fanbase must be enormous then, and I guess that makes Mihawk the most exciting Shichibukai of the lot. No wait, his Antonio Banderas look is sorta creative, he can’t count.
@Thousand:
But then he does totally unexpected things like having Polar Bears in his crew,
This is the flimsiest excuse to “deepen” Law ever. Depth by character association.
“Crocodile is so interesting, he has Mr 2 in his staff” “Spandam is so interesting, he has Fukuro in his staff” Etc. Having weird shit in your crew is everyday life in One Piece.
@Thousand:
randomly saving a slave and letting him join his crew, saves Luffy's life at great risk to his own life. What he does is always off the wall be it not charging straight into the New World and going out of his way to become a Shickibukai.
Classic “Does what he feels in the moment” laid back “badass” character. But I actually preferred Law this way. He was never my favourite supernova, but back when he was just kind of a chill, clever stoner-looking dude at Sabaody I didn’t mind him. Back then, he always had this relaxed expression on his face. SUPER SERIOUS SMIRKING I HAVE A PLAN MASTERMIND LAW is a different story; almost a different character, even.
@Thousand:
Then we learn he has a dark history with Doflamingo (which probably sucked for him) and that he wants to stir the New World into chaos. It's not that we don't know his substance. It's that we've gotten hints of something deeper, gleams of it but we haven't seen the whole thing but it is there.
So Laws substance is: He’s mysterious, we don’t know his actual substance yet.
@Thousand:
Plus he is legitimately cool. And not just because he's so composed but the shit he does is pretty insane and crazy.
If there was a panel of him dissecting the hearts out of living pirates? Sure. But all I see is Strength Feats and Plans. What did he do that was “Insane”
@Thousand:
Who cares? Are you really nitpicking on this?
I care because when someone is established as a master planner, it makes them look shallow and bad when their plan easily falls apart and they aren’t called on it.
@Thousand:
Him getting captured wasn't even part of the plan.
He made the chain switch specifically as a countermeasure to get captured. It’s a “Wow, Law is so smart!” moment that ultimately makes no sense, and thus undermines it.
@Thousand:
I'm talking about his plan as a whole. Which is capture Caeser, take a hold of SAD, use it for his own purposes and piss off Doflamingo and the other big fishes while he's at it.
Because he couldn't do it on his own or if he did, he didn't think he had a good chance of success. Which is why he went to Luffy for help. And where was it stated he wants to destroy the SAD? He just said he didn't want Doflamingo to have it anymore. Maybe he wants to use it for himself?
Law had absolutely no idea Luffy- nor anyone else-was coming. His plan was to do it himself, from the beginning. Or are you saying his plan was “reach Punk Hazard. Twiddle thumbs and hope for the best”?
And by “destroy SAD” I am referring to the fact that he just fucked up the SAD production room pretty decicively.
@Thousand:
They caught him leaving so he silenced them. Their pieces are probably ash by now.
He cut them into pieces. Right in front of a lab entrance. And left them there, not hiding them in any way. And its long established that people cut by Law are very much alive, and can reassemble themselves.
@Thousand:
Where was this stated?
Law: “Damn you Vergo! If you weren’t here, I had it all figured out how to get my heart back!
@Thousand:
But really, these are all nitpicks. His overall plan makes sense. It has a defined ending and ways planned out to accomplish his plan. It's much, much better than Aizen whose plan was I think to invade the Soul Palace or something and then wastes time chasing Ichigo's friends.
Theres a million places It could’ve failed, not the least of which is the assumption of asking Caesar and Monet politely not to alert Doflamingo of his presence would work. Which it didn’t. And would have killed him if he hadn’t lucked out and Smoker had arrived.
@Thousand:
His power is awesome, man. It''s not even about grabbing stuff. It's been used in clever and creative ways. I still don't know how Counter Shock works but looking forward to finding out. And it's ridiculously overpowered to what is fitting for a Shickibukai. You know, the same guys that can cut fucking mountains in half and nuke islands. These are the sort of things that should be expected from now on. Even Luffy is now capable of destroying an ISLAND SIZED boat.
Powers used to have a clearly defined base, and be restricted to uses of that core ability. Luffy stretches and that’s IT. He doesn’t summon rubber out of the ether or turn things rubbery upon a touch, he just stretches. Buggy JUST splits himself. Croc is JUST sand. And all have plenty of moves that yes, use this ONE power in creative ways.
With characters like Law and Hancock, its just a grab-bag clusterfuck of different things all in one fruit. Law can make stuff levitate, swap objects of different sizes, keep people alive without hearts, create electricity, teleport objects of a certain nature without swapping them for anything at all, swap minds, all because it falls under the vague notion of "Stuff you can do in an operation room". Theres nothing stopping Law from busting out his super technique "Pull The plug", where he instantly kills people by cutting their metaphysical life support. Because thats kinda doctor related.
@Thousand:
Vergo lost to him because he underestimated him severely thinking he was still dealing with the same snot nosed brat who probably pissed his pants in front of him. had he fought smartly, he would have probably won (and again, Oda did it this way for a reason not just because LAW IS SO COOL <3). The point is however he's not untouchable. We've seen him in moments of weakness. He's not a God. He almost lost to Smoker apart from the whoopings Vergo gave him.
I’ll give you that Smoker put up a decent effort, but he landed no hits, and lost fair and square. An the way this chapter presents it, its pretty clear that Oda wants to impress the notion of “Fuck you Vergo! You only won because you had my heart!”
@Thousand:
That's your prerogative to not like him (personally I think your reasoning for not liking him is shallow because he's NOT WACKY ENOUGH but whatever.
Oh come on now. Pearl had wackiness, as had Absalom the Nyanban bros, but you’re not gonna see me defend them as good characters…though at least they had something to set them apart. But surely you must get what I mean about OP characters? Law has none of the entertainment value of someone like Garp, no memorable design like Magellan, he has none of the heart of someone like, Bon, Bellemere, Gan Fall, Cobra, Kureha, Genzo, etc.
Hell, lets take Noland. Is he wacky? Nah. Super quirky personality? Nah. Extravagant design? Apart from his nose and the acorn, nah. But god damn if he isn’t a fucking excellent character, because I actually care about him. Law, despite his crew name, has no Heart to his character. And when you also lack design and personality, then theres not much left.
@Thousand:
And really, "what he stands for?" I don't think Oda made him to be the poster boy for bishie bait). But there is a reason why he's been getting all this screen-time which is intricately tied to the story.
Law doesn’t stand for evil calculated moves on Odas part. He stands for reaching for a character template from the Trope drawer.
@Thousand:
Again, your prerogative. I personally like Law and I'm interested in his plans and what his role in the story is as much as the emotional drama of the arc. But it's all there for a reason. Because Law is an important character for the future of the series, from the beginning, he was hyped up as being one of the more important SN. So of course Oda is going to build up his character. Luffy needs allies/rivals for the New World and some of them like Law or Hawkins or Kid need to be taken especially seriously. We'll have arcs dedicated to Drake and Kid, don't worry, they'll have their turn.
If Luffy arrives at Elbaf, or some other island new interesting island, but suddenly X Drake is there and all conversations sing the tune of KAIDOKAIDOKAIDOKAIDO oh theres original characters and interesting history and story potential here but KAIDOKAIDOKAIDOKAIDO I might thump something.
I don’t mind “the big picture” being updated, but can’t the arcs be their own thing first? Drum would have been awful if the namedroppings of Blackbeard, Ace and Gol D Roger had taken center stage. These last few chapters were good because we got connected to the PH specific drama, but largely it has been shafted for just buildup.
@Thousand:
While Law is integral to the story and the whole "We are the new generation who will replace the old" theme going on.
Doesn’t make his character and spotlight hogging here in the present any better.