Chapter 645: "Death Is Also Revenge"

No Maam

@GoustiFruit:

It is know that some sailors used to rape dolphins !? True, no kidding :-
So Oda may have used this for his story…

…..You're trying to out weird Bazoo aren't you ?

maxterdexter

@GoustiFruit:

It is know that some sailors used to rape dolphins !? True, no kidding :-
So Oda may have used this for his story…

I'm pretty sure that it is the other way around. Dolphins are evil.

newbatthis

@GoustiFruit:

It is know that some sailors used to rape dolphins !? True, no kidding :-
So Oda may have used this for his story…

A perfectly interesting theory pops up and I go reading for other opinions. And then this.

blue-san

@Fire Fist:

You know, with everything that's been shown so far, I'm beginning to think that Fishmen are actually Human/Merman hybrids. Think about it. Where had Noah crash landed originally? Fishman District. Fishman have human and Fish characteristics, Merman have almost entirely fish-based characteristics. Merman seem to rule Fishman Island, with Fishmen living in either the slums or on the lower levels with the lower-class Mermen. The King, the two ministers, and the wealthier people of Fishman Island are all Mermen. The highest position Fishmen seem to obtain are Royal Guard. Most turn to piracy or slave trading to make a living, with a few exceptions.

With everything we've seen, I'm 60% convinced that Noah was filled with human refugees who fled the problems plaguing the Void Century, and ended up crashing into Fishman Island. They interbred (somehow) with Mermen, and Fishmen were born as a result. Or rather than interbreed, their bodies mutated into the first Fishmen in order to adapt to life several miles under the sea. Perhaps this "Joy Boy" was the Captain of Noah, or the person who enabled these refugees to become Fishmen.

Anyway, it's just a theory, but I hope that in the coming chapters, Hody wakes up inside Noah and finds some past information that gives us a hint as to the origins of Fishmen (and Noah in general), which would force Hody to accept humans for what they are: The same as him.

I really like this theory and it makes me start thinking along those lines.

So thanks for sharing ;)

As for how they would breed. Well we have seen Kokoro walk on land so…

igetownd

@Fire Fist:

You know, with everything that's been shown so far, I'm beginning to think that Fishmen are actually Human/Merman hybrids. Think about it. Where had Noah crash landed originally? Fishman District. Fishman have human and Fish characteristics, Merman have almost entirely fish-based characteristics. Merman seem to rule Fishman Island, with Fishmen living in either the slums or on the lower levels with the lower-class Mermen. The King, the two ministers, and the wealthier people of Fishman Island are all Mermen. The highest position Fishmen seem to obtain are Royal Guard. Most turn to piracy or slave trading to make a living, with a few exceptions.

With everything we've seen, I'm 60% convinced that Noah was filled with human refugees who fled the problems plaguing the Void Century, and ended up crashing into Fishman Island. They interbred (somehow) with Mermen, and Fishmen were born as a result. Or rather than interbreed, their bodies mutated into the first Fishmen in order to adapt to life several miles under the sea. Perhaps this "Joy Boy" was the Captain of Noah, or the person who enabled these refugees to become Fishmen.

Anyway, it's just a theory, but I hope that in the coming chapters, Hody wakes up inside Noah and finds some past information that gives us a hint as to the origins of Fishmen (and Noah in general), which would force Hody to accept humans for what they are: The same as him.

I don't think you are the first to post this theory, or something similar to it…

As for how they breed (and defacate), Oda has hinted in the SBS (volume 63?) that Mermen (and Mermaids) have a couple movable scales on their lower half...

Katzztar

@RomanceDawn:

I think Igosuki was joking. But if he wasn't I think it was made clear that it was odd that he could talk since he was just a starfish. Still, if urchin and clam fishmen exist i'm sure a starfish is out there. How would a clam, urchin or starfish mermaid look?!

Oda introduced him as juut a starfish that learned to talk because he didn't know that he wasn't human. Oda has introduced his character with a box with the correct info, when he was hiding something to be revealed later, he did not use the info box.

AS for what a starfish fish/merfolk look like, I think we can use the examples given by squid and octopus types, since they, like starfish, have multiple limbs and are based on animals w/out a skeleto= Ikros is a squid fishman, Hatchan is a octopus fishman, both have thh multiple arms. They look mostly humanoid, as in they have a reconizable human-like body besides the extra arms. We haven't seen a squid mermaid but have seen a octopus mermaid and I'm assuming that squid and starfish ,erfolk would look similar to the octopus mermaid= A human torso but with the multiple limbs as legs.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v59/c616/4.html Octopus mermaid is in the far right panel middle row

dasia

@Gia:

…way more complicated,I feel like its going to connect back to ancient times, a conflict that started 800 years ago and has something to do with the ancient kingdom.

This is what I keep hoping this arc to turn into every week,fingers crossed.

Firefist: I like your theory,do you remember Arlong's statement in chapter 644 though?wasn't discussed much in the thread:

"In the ancient times, these trash they call themselves humans envied the fishman race who were chosen by the heavens… and feared our very existence. They answered with discrimination!!The humans road the earth with no reserve like maggots, and using the only advantage they have, the fact they out number us, they drove us into the bottom of the ocean…."

I dn't know but these lines gave me the impression that Fishmen used to live on the surface and that Fishman Island was only created at the time of the void century (which people were speculating on already).

Void century because of the "We were chosen by the heavens..feared..driven down to the bottom" which could be talking about fishmen being sent 10,000 metres deep because of their possession of a formidable ability/weapon/recipe. stuff the likes of Pluton and Poseidon. Would fit with the big cleaning 800 years ago. Though Arlong could just be talking about physical strength superiority lol
In the above's case it would mean that the Fishmen race existed prior to 800 years ago. The Human/Mermen part of the theory would still work though, we just go further back in time to the very early years.

ps: We still dn't know what/where is Poseidon right?

Baou Zakurga

Fishmen could of lived on Shabody.Robin mentioned that Shabody has intence hatred for fishmen/merpeople and see them only as slaves,lesser-beings.

Thanos

I am late on posting my thoughts on the chapter. I love the chapter. A fitting end to on of the best villians in the manga "IMO." Anytime my favorite charact in the manga makes an apperance the chapter gets an 10 (Black Beard), and we get some background info on him makes this chapter even better. The Zoan fruit theory is gone. Looks like Chopper has full control of MP. It doesnt feel like MP if he can control it. My favorite SH is a God. Congrats Usopp. Luffy still a bad ass. Tbe SHP will be rapping this up soon
50/10

Lazy Justice

Can I point out the Zoan fruit theory is not 'gone'. The claw marks wasn't the only evidence to support it. In fact, it covers a massive hole in the theory that he would've had to reveal his Zoan fruit to Shanks.

I'm not saying it's the case, but by no means has the theory been disproven.

gottalt3OP

I think Fishman and merman are a mix of Fish, and mermen :o
And Joy Boy was the one who empragnated fish eggs, when, you know, he was lonely in his submarine. (probably the wrong thread).
And his the siamese twin is the theory I find more believeble. An head is sticking out of his back. ^^

Vepe

@Katzztar:

Oda introduced him as juut a starfish that learned to talk because he didn't know that he wasn't human. Oda has introduced his character with a box with the correct info, when he was hiding something to be revealed later, he did not use the info box.

AS for what a starfish fish/merfolk look like, I think we can use the examples given by squid and octopus types, since they, like starfish, have multiple limbs and are based on animals w/out a skeleto= Ikros is a squid fishman, Hatchan is a octopus fishman, both have thh multiple arms. They look mostly humanoid, as in they have a reconizable human-like body besides the extra arms. We haven't seen a squid mermaid but have seen a octopus mermaid and I'm assuming that squid and starfish ,erfolk would look similar to the octopus mermaid= A human torso but with the multiple limbs as legs.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v59/c616/4.html Octopus mermaid is in the far right panel middle row

You seriously went with the hard way and didn't just say that hey, Hyouzou is an Octopus merman.

Xosis

Umm… Where do all these theories of fishmen being born from mermen and humans come from?

akagami7

SBS volume 45

D: If KoKoro-san is a mermaid, why is her granddaughter Chimney a normal human? Don't mermaids pass on genetic information? from Petit Panda

O: KoKoro-san came here from Fishman Island out of her respect for Tom-san, when she was a young mermaid. She married a young human man from Water 7, their half-merman son married another human, and THEIR daughter was Chimney. Chimney is therefore 1/4 mermaid, so she's a very good swimmer. It was only her mermaid blood that helped such a little kid save Luffy in Chapter 403, Volume 42, as he drowned.

It seems everyone has forgotten about this question

rubia_ryu

@igetownd:

As for how they breed (and defacate), Oda has hinted in the SBS (volume 63?) that Mermen (and Mermaids) have a couple movable scales on their lower half…

Actually, Oda explained how mermaids are able to split tails, but not mermen. He didn't mention anything about some movable scales in their lower half and never explained how merfolk defecate. Luffy will have to keep trying with someone else. ~~I guarantee it'll show up again in this arc~~

Also, most mermaids in their 40s+ moved on land because Oda wanted to draw young ones at the cove. No other reason.

Edit: Scratch that, Sanji must have been involved somehow. He was there when Oda was trying to explain how mermaids poop.

Katzztar

@Vepe:

You seriously went with the hard way and didn't just say that hey, Hyouzou is an Octopus merman.

True I could have just said Hyouzou,it was the easiest. But I mentioned females as well as males, and knew it was bound to be brought up by someone wanting to know where I saw them. I've not seen any female squid types but did see her.
.
.
.
And honestly, I forgot where I saw her and was curious myself. So yeah, I went the hard route

Zik

@Gia:

Have a feeling we arent that close to finishing. Lots of little things not cleared up in this arc.

That's the easier part. I'm hoping the resolution of this arc is better than it's conflict and climax. I'm just happy this boring fight is over. All I have to deal with after is more whiny talk about fishman/human relations, racism, and friendship unless Oda plans for another threat and extend the SHs stay.

thewonderer

@Zik:

That's the easier part. I'm hoping the resolution of this arc is better than it's conflict and climax. I'm just happy this boring fight is over. All I have to deal with after is more whiny talk about fishman/human relations, racism, and friendship unless Oda plans for another threat and extend the SHs stay.

Yeah then we can get back to established villains with cliche purposes! Don't you just love the uneducated fanbase?

redon

ONE PIECE 645 RAW HQ

http://www.filesonic.es/file/3017095325/One-Piece-645.zip

Thanks Raw Piece.

Kaoru

@Katzztar:

Oda introduced him as juut a starfish that learned to talk because he didn't know that he wasn't human. Oda has introduced his character with a box with the correct info, when he was hiding something to be revealed later, he did not use the info box.

AS for what a starfish fish/merfolk look like, I think we can use the examples given by squid and octopus types, since they, like starfish, have multiple limbs and are based on animals w/out a skeleto= Ikros is a squid fishman, Hatchan is a octopus fishman, both have thh multiple arms. They look mostly humanoid, as in they have a reconizable human-like body besides the extra arms. We haven't seen a squid mermaid but have seen a octopus mermaid and I'm assuming that squid and starfish ,erfolk would look similar to the octopus mermaid= A human torso but with the multiple limbs as legs.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v59/c616/4.html Octopus mermaid is in the far right panel middle row

Example of merman starfish?

!

its just a joke don't kill me! :ninja: -the way the discussion was going I couln't help myself :D-

sekida

If Shirahoshi already knows how to control her sea king powers, Noah wouldn't be smashed to pieces.

Jabra

@sekida:

If Shirahoshi already knows how to control her sea king powers, Noah wouldn't be smashed to pieces.

I thought the chapter made clear that Luffy can't destroy Noah:

http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/89182735/13

Or is that a mistranslation?

Baou Zakurga

@sekida:

If Shirahoshi already knows how to control her sea king powers, Noah wouldn't be smashed to pieces.

She can't freely control her powers,she admited it in the sea forest.but if she has a temper tantrum and screams "I want my country saved!",and puts that thought out,the seakings could still stop the arc.

I'm still confident that the arc and the mermaid princess are related,and those chins on the side of Noah is for 'advanced navigation' :ninja:

dstoudi

This post is deleted!

Drake_Cloud

@Jabra:

I thought the chapter made clear that Luffy can't destroy Noah:

http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/89182735/13

Or is that a mistranslation?

Or it might just be the fishmen are underestimating Luffy.

derkaiser94

@ponx:

Joy Boy was mentioned in chapter 628. Robin said that the Poneglyph found in FI was different in that it was more of an apology letter. Then she asked "Just who are you exactly, Joy Boy?"

But it was very unclear who he was, Joy Boy can refer to the one the Poneglyph was apologizing to. Or the one who wrote the Poneglyph. Or he could even be someone mentioned in that Poneglyph.

Unless of course, it was a mistranslation and the actual RAW was clear on who he was

Cheers mate! Thanks for that.

Jabra

@Drake_Cloud:

Or it might just be the fishmen are underestimating Luffy.

Well, I'm pretty sure Luffy can destroy Noah with enough time - but not fast enough to safe Fishmen Island.

This either begs for Shirahoshi using her damn Seakings, or a group effort involving the other Straw Hats. Especially Sanji's and Jinbe's "plan" looks like something.

If we look at real life, pufferfish can increase their size up to 3/10 times their original size, depending on species.

Ten times Wadatsumi, basically half of Noah:

!

Md-Martin

@Jabra:

Well, I'm pretty sure Luffy can destroy Noah with enough time - but not fast enough to safe Fishmen Island.

This either begs for Shirahoshi using her damn Seakings, or a group effort involving the other Straw Hats. Especially Sanji's and Jinbe's "plan" looks like something.

If we look at real life, pufferfish can increase their size up to 3/10 times their original size, depending on species.

Ten times Wadatsumi, basically half of Noah:

! http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6671/wadatsumi.jpg

Well I wouldn't say that's completely accurate. Wadatsumi seems to be much closer than the ship, so the perspective does make Wadatsumi seem a bit larger than he should, but I still think he will be a vital part in stopping the ship.

I see it like this: Luffy continues to destroy the ship, eventually putting a hole through the hull causing the bubble to pop. He uses the coral to save himself, and we see VDD floating to the bottom of the see. The ship has been drastically reduced in size, but it's still huge. Jinbe and Sanji launch a largely inflated Wadatsumi at the larger parts of the broken arc, causing it to break down further, however many large pieces will still enter the bubble. The rest of the crew will stop the pieces too(Nami blowing some away, Robin and Chopper using their giant techniques to catch some, Zoro cutting some bigger pieces up).

I think that it'll add to the theme of "These humans are the good ones" by having the whole crew stop the ship, not just Luffy.

Theseus

I was glad to know how shanks got his scar. Also Marco was a swordsman.

rubia_ryu

@Md-Martin:

… we see VDD floating to the bottom of the sea.

Lies. VDD will not die because he is already a victim of lame plot device. Curse you rough surfaces!

Md-Martin

@rubia_ryu:

Lies. VDD will not die because he is already a victim of lame plot device. Curse you rough surfaces!

'

Didn't say he would die, I expect a conclusion. I'm just saying he can breathe, so it won't matter if he sinks for now.

Fire-Fist

@rubia_ryu:

Lies. VDD will not die because he is already a victim of lame plot device. Curse you rough surfaces!

quoting just to get your attention :ninja:

Last two pages of jump… can you or aohige or anyone else shed some light about what it is?
Warning: big images

! http://i28.lulzimg.com/3479674b11.jpg
http://i28.lulzimg.com/8be3948652.jpg

redon

@Fire-Fist:

quoting just to get your attention :ninja:

Last two pages of jump… can you or aohige or anyone else shed some light about what it is?
Warning: big images

! [qimg]http://i28.lulzimg.com/3479674b11.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://i28.lulzimg.com/8be3948652.jpg[/qimg]

Next Jump Bang! program (11th November) will be dedicated to One Piece.

isrnick

@Fire-Fist:

quoting just to get your attention :ninja:

Last two pages of jump… can you or aohige or anyone else shed some light about what it is?
Warning: big images

The images are loaded whether you click to show the "spoiler" or not… Couldn't you reduce the images, or use a host who reduces it for you if you want (such as imageshack)?

rituel

http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/645/8

idk if someone pointed this out but in this page the panel 2nd from left in the middle row is that like a picture from shirley's vision??

Aohige_AP

Exam to test who's the true One Piece king.

Wish I could participate.

nefra

@Aohige_AP:

Exam to test who's the true One Piece king.

Wish I could participate.

:O :O :O :O : O:O :O :O

gottalt3OP

Aohige, you're obviously the king of One Piece… Your participation would be unfair for the others.

Fire-Fist

thanks aohige and redon

@isrnick:

The images are loaded whether you click to show the "spoiler" or not… Couldn't you reduce the images, or use a host who reduces it for you if you want (such as imageshack)?

i spoiled them to reduce page stretching… btw done.

chihirou

The theme of this week's Janbang will be "The path towards becoming the King of One Piece (Part One)" starring such TV greats like "Nonstyle" Yuusuke Inoue, Yoshio Kojima, Mitsu Murata, "Un-jash" Kazuya Kojima, "Ame Pie" and "El Sharakani" Taichi Taifu.

As for the translation, well, it's a bit off the track. Sure, the NF pirate does say the Strawhat can't destroy the Noah, but it's based on what he heard or what he thinks. Basically, his point of view.

Czechmate

@Theseus:

Also Marco was a swordsman.

Holding a sword =/= swordsman.

choperman

It doesn't seem like gear thirds doing the trick, wonder if luffy's got a really special move/new transformation to destroy noah

Juvar

Just realising how amazingly appropriate Brook's title as "Soul King" actually is, seeing his new grasp of his powers and all…
~~yes i'm slow~~

m00n

@Aohige_AP:

Regardless of how "wrong" you think Luffy's line sounds, that's what he says.
Mangastream is simply wrong.

If you want to make it sound more natural, it would be like
"Man… he's like a over-100 million bounty when it comes to toughness..!"

But that's what he says.

Live with it.

This is not even an issue in Japanese forums.

Like I said a few pages back, he's making sounds of swallowing.

Now this is kind of old news but one the One Piece Podcast Stephen said Luffy is not refering to either himselv nor Hodi in particualr, so it can mean both. Translator or native speaker, who's right :D

Aohige_AP

There is no way that phrase can refer to self.
Why in the hell do you think Luffy would say HIS OWN toughness is level of 100 mil after witnessing HODY's endurance anyways.

I am 100% sure of this. I'm baffled why you would even question it.

That quote is not even a confusion in Japanese forums.
You decide.

If Stephen is confused on the matter, send me a pm.

EDIT: I went to check out the RAW to make sure the spoiler script was correct. And it was.
It's contextual. Yes, he does not have pronouns announcing himself or Hoy in the sentence, and just says "Toughness sure is over 100 mill…."
And contextually it's obviously about Hody's toughness.

The sentence ends in a "だな・・・" instead of exclaiming "だ". This is when one is reassuring, or acknowledging a fact that may not be so clear.
Luffy isn't gonna suddenly acknowledge that "Oh hey, I think I'm over supernova level in toughness" out of blue.
It makes no sense both contextually and character-wise.
His comment is directed towards Hody's endurance to keep coming back up. He is IGNORING to answer to Hody's question.
This is Luffy. This is perfectly in his character.

100%.

redon

Oda´s message in this week SJ ToC maybe is interesting ^^

rubia_ryu

@redon:

Oda´s message in this week SJ ToC maybe is interesting ^^

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4414/toc.jpg

Nothing much this time. He's pretty excited about the latest in the anime and loves the new theme opening. Yes, One Piece is going on strong as usual.

brennen.exe

@Aohige_AP:

There is no way that phrase can refer to himself. Why in the hell do you think Luffy would say HIS OWN toughness is level of 100 mil after witnessing HODY's endurance anyways. I am 100% sure of this. I'm baffled why you would even question it. I went to check out the RAW to make sure the spoiler script was correct. And it was.
It's contextual. And contextually it's obviously about Hody's toughness. Luffy isn't gonna suddenly acknowledge that "Oh hey, I think I'm over supernova level in toughness" out of blue. He is IGNORING to answer to Hody's question.

Not trying to argue the translation, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the matter of context. In the context of Hodi questioning Luffy's toughness and endurance, anyone should and would assume Luffy is referring to himself when he immediately follows the question with, "tougher than 100 million." I trust your translations and all, so again I am not arguing the translation itself, however your view on the context is wrong… at least in English. That said, you shouldn't be baffled that people are confused about this and questioning it on an English forum.

Edit: to further the point about context, you might also consider the context of the situation, and not just the dialog itself. You suggested Luffy was commenting on Hodi's persistence, getting up after all of these attacks, yet pages before Hodi's comment, Luffy already sees Hodi getting up and begins his Gear 3rd attack. To comment about Hodi's toughness that long after he begins another attack on Hodi is just silly… not to mention his comment isn't made until Hodi's question comes up.

Darkstorm

well, if it's himself you'd expect him to reference the last bounty he's aware of, which'd be 300mil, right?

blackbeard teach

I definitely think Luffy will get a blood transfusion