Kuma getting "revived" and being normal again would like... completely trash all the pathos and emotional tension of this flashback and a massive stretch of the story. Like way worse than Saul being alive still. I imagine he's on his way to Egghead to make one "last stand" programmed in somehow, but I really think this is the end of the line for him.

A miscellaneous question I've been thinking about as I'm rereading Egghead thus far; do we have any explicit mention anywhere in the story about Elbaf's status vis-a-vis the World Govt? It stands to reason that they are unaffiliated but I can't recall any mentions of their affiliation in the way that we got with Wano (where we were told from very early on - maybe as far back as Thriller Bark? - that they were unaffiliated).

Kuma getting "revived" and being normal again would like... completely trash all the pathos and emotional tension of this flashback and a massive stretch of the story. Like way worse than Saul being alive still. I imagine he's on his way to Egghead to make one "last stand" programmed in somehow, but I really think this is the end of the line for him.

@Daz:

Regardless of how this thing shakes out next, week, it still suffers this week from the fact that whatever this powerup is isn't unlocked through some burst of emotion or new transcendent insight or something, Its just booted up after Luffy has been fully KO'd (…a short while after the exact same thing already happened). It doesn't feel like something Luffy has actively earned when it happens like that, it really is just shonen manga trope 101 - but that doesn't mean people should like it. Getting an emotional and rousing last surge of strength where you exhaust all your reserves is one thing, unlocking a whole new tier of power while left for dead in a ditch is something else.

I mean… sure?

Unless whatever's happening has something to do with his fruit, which seems extremely likely, a fruit whose capabilities he has been pushing to the (presumed) limit for the past few arcs, a fruit whose seemingly bizarre abilities have been noted by the last three major antagonists in their respective fights with Luffy, in a story where several characters have noted for years that "true (combat) abilities emerge in life-or-death situations", in an arc where Luffy has recently undergone a fairly extensive bout of training after a total defeat (think of it what you will), and has also developed new combat abilities already, and in a story where we know there are outstanding mysteries on the question of Devil Fruit powers and the moment of death. Seems like there might be an answer in there.

Also seems intuitive to me that this would also contain answers to the "why now?" questions vis-a-vis Luffy's previous KOs, and Luffy on Zou (Luffy literally tells Momo that Zunesha can't/won't listen to him at that time, which seems nontrivial).

I'm not saying (really!) that anyone has to like where this is going, or even like this chapter, but I think the reading that this is somehow an asspull because we haven't gotten a corny shonen internal monologue or the entire explanation spelled out for us is bunk. Really feels like a virulent case of "I've decided what this all means and I've also decided I hate it" with people this week.

@wolfwood:

How to you explain the death if you think it is just his DF awakening?

This is the part that confuses me most - I suspect whatever's happening is almost entirely related to Luffy's fruit, with the possibility that all fruits contain a/some spirit or soul inside. It also really seems, from the imagery in the chapter, that Luffy is dead in some sense. Silence, hollowed eyes, characters shocked at his 'voice' disappearing. So maybe JB lives inside the fruit => Luffy's death "releases" him somehow - this is my theory for the moment.

But then we have, with explicit focus from the paneling, a frown on Luffy's face when he appears dead - not very D-like - and a smile only after whatever's happening is happening. So who the hell knows!

partly it's because I'm such a W7/EL head, but Iceburg is probably my favorite supporting character overall. He's subtly odd, gets his fair share of drama and pathos, feels integral and not incidental to the plot of the arc(s). In that way he's narratively and emotionally set against Franky, as a weird blood-brother, and that's something I think is one of Oda's great successes in character storytelling (I will never fail to tear up reading their conversation before Franky boards the Sunny).

What I mean is "I don't think it would be a bad thing necessarily if Zoro was related to Ryuuma, but I'm genuinely confused why people are concluding that when I don't think that's what the story is telling us," and I apologize if that wasn't clear.

@dirt:

I sure don't really care that much. That's why I'm arguing with someone on an anime/manga forum about it and even made a list of my points and reasoning behind it.

I appreciate you taking the time to make your bad faith engagement with this discussion abundantly clear – have a lovely day

@dirt:

wow, it's almost as if Ushi's sister or someone could've married someone from the East Blue

is secretly related to them by way of hypothetical characters I have made up

@wolfwood:

Personally i just take it at face value

Just like people pointing out the connections between Luffy and Roger suggest they're directly related, huh?

fwiw it doesn't matter to me much if Zoro is a descendant of Ryuuma, though I'd obviously be interested to see how that's confirmed/addressed in the story or SBS or whatever. I just feel like I'm reading a different manga than everyone else when I read internet discourse sometimes - the conclusion of 'Shimotsuki Zoro' from this chapter feels like bizarre mental gymnastics to me. oh well.

@dirt:

sometimes, the simplest answer IS the answer, dude

This is true. Somehow I don't think "the character with a different name than the fated bloodline, who trained under them but was never acknowledged as a relative by any of those people, is secretly related to them by way of hypothetical characters I have made up, rather than being an instance of the story's emphasis on inherited will being more important than blood relations" is the simplest answer here

And Zoro looks like Ryuuma because the latter was designed by Oda first, used as a basis for the former, and then was conveniently re-threaded into One Piece's story.

And Duval looks like Sanji's drawn bounty poster for pure shits and giggles.

And Kuina and Tashigi, as you said, do look identical for no reason that we can discern, as an intentional plot point.

So you can suspect that they're related, and if Oda drops a retcon-level reveal that makes Zoro into a Shimotsuki, then I'll drop this. But it's an assertion unsubstantiated by the story so far.