I'm sure that nobody doubts at this point that Vivi will come back for the big end war. The crewmate thing is what people seem to be arguing against.
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)
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@Deicide I think that's a fair take.
@Ivotas To be honest, I find that we're all really just dancing around the issue.
What we need to know is how Vivi could possibly be comparable to Luffy, Teach, or Shirahoshi as someone who Imu commands the Gorousei to "erase." The answer to that question would probably also uncover any possible "role" for her on the ship as well.
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@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Deicide I think that's a fair take.
@Ivotas To be honest, I find that we're all really just dancing around the issue.
What we need to know is how Vivi could possibly be comparable to Luffy, Teach, or Shirahoshi as someone who Imu commands the Gorousei to "erase." The answer to that question would probably also uncover any possible "role" for her on the ship as well.
I always figured that her being a Nefertari is what did the trick here. While Luffy, Teach and Shirahoshi most likely tie into the Ancient Weapons thing in one way or another (for Shirahoshi the connection is at least crystal clear) Vivi is tied to the past of the WG by being a descendant of the family that decided to not move to Marijois. The Five Elder Stars even said themselves, that they could "be considered as traitors". One might wonder, why this happens only now and they were seemingly ok with them being a country affiliated with the WG for 800 years but let's delve not into the incompetence of the WG, which is a topic worthy of a PhD thesis.
But to play devils advocate here. Why have a problem with the Nefertari's now and not within the 800 years before? Well, Vivi is friends with Luffy and just so happened to befriend Shirahoshi during the reverie. That's two of the three mentioned above. Add to this, that Cobra might have asked something about the Poneglyph and the ancient history as hinted as him developing an interest at the end of Arabasta, and the WG might think that the Nefertari's went to far.
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@danie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Galleon-Panthera said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@danie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
This is all likely to end soon when Oda updates the situation of the minks and Carrot is with them all fine and dandy. I'm sure that won't stop the true believers though.
Caribou is more likely to be on the ship.
Whether Carrot joins or not, isn't my real concern anymore. I just want closure with this character. If it ends up with her being ruler, then I'm fine with it. That is really all to it. Nothing else at this point.
That is as reasonable I can get.
Yeah, I'd like closure with Carrot too. Believe it or not, I actually really like her. But overzealous fans tend to dampen my enjoyment of characters. I feel like a lot people can't enjoy a character unless they feel they will join the crew, which is kinda funny to me because I don't really care for most of the strawhat crew if I'm being honest.
I can already see it though: Carrot will get a flashback of her goodbye with some of the crew or something, and some people will claim that means Oda plans on her joining in the future.
It already got ridiculous with people associating chapter numbers, like how the number * symbolizes* Carrot, or that chapter 1059 is a word play on Moon Festival.
I like to read a great theory or speculation from time to time, but some people just go way overboard to the point when it comes to having characters join the crew.
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@Galleon-Panthera One Piece has become astrology already, with how many predictions are based on chapter numbers, correlations and symbolism.
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That's the thing though, if the idea is that Vivi is as important as Luffy, Blackbeard, and Shirahoshi, that means she is destined for greater things that would be above being the 11th.
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New thread when the new arc starts?
Cuz kinda doubt Yamato is gonna keep showing up to generate any discussion and the wave of new characters ain’t show up yet.
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@Zik said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
New thread when the new arc starts?
Cuz kinda doubt Yamato is gonna keep showing up to generate any discussion and the wave of new characters ain’t show up yet.
Given the forces out there that can come to Wano at anytime, I think it’s only a matter of time before Yamato’s decision backfires on her, but we’ll have to see.
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@Zik Shift said he will make a new one when the cree arrives at the next destination.
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@Zin-Magala I can definitely agree with that. I think Vivi will either become the final Nakama, or has too much importance in the plot to do so.
Either way, though, it's very likely she'll be riding along with the crew.
@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
I always figured that her being a Nefertari is what did the trick here. While Luffy, Teach and Shirahoshi most likely tie into the Ancient Weapons thing in one way or another (for Shirahoshi the connection is at least crystal clear) Vivi is tied to the past of the WG by being a descendant of the family that decided to not move to Marijois. The Five Elder Stars even said themselves, that they could "be considered as traitors". One might wonder, why this happens only now and they were seemingly ok with them being a country affiliated with the WG for 800 years but let's delve not into the incompetence of the WG, which is a topic worthy of a PhD thesis.
But to play devils advocate here. Why have a problem with the Nefertari's now and not within the 800 years before? Well, Vivi is friends with Luffy and just so happened to befriend Shirahoshi during the reverie. That's two of the three mentioned above. Add to this, that Cobra might have asked something about the Poneglyph and the ancient history as hinted as him developing an interest at the end of Arabasta, and the WG might think that the Nefertari's went to far.
The difference is that with Luffy, Teach, and Shirahoshi, the threat they pose is based on them as individuals, and also happens to tie directly into battle power.
What you're suggesting doesn't allow Vivi to fit into that category:
-Teach has a strange power that allows him to eat multiple Devil Fruits
-Luffy has Joyboy's Devil Fruit
-Shirahoshi can control all the Sea Kings
-Vivi is a representative of her clan, who disagrees with the World GovernmentIt's just not enough to be pictured alongside those other 3.
There's going to have to be a twist. -
@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Zin-Magala I can definitely agree with that. I think Vivi will either become the final Nakama, or has too much importance in the plot to do so.
Either way, though, it's very likely she'll be riding along with the crew.
@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
I always figured that her being a Nefertari is what did the trick here. While Luffy, Teach and Shirahoshi most likely tie into the Ancient Weapons thing in one way or another (for Shirahoshi the connection is at least crystal clear) Vivi is tied to the past of the WG by being a descendant of the family that decided to not move to Marijois. The Five Elder Stars even said themselves, that they could "be considered as traitors". One might wonder, why this happens only now and they were seemingly ok with them being a country affiliated with the WG for 800 years but let's delve not into the incompetence of the WG, which is a topic worthy of a PhD thesis.
But to play devils advocate here. Why have a problem with the Nefertari's now and not within the 800 years before? Well, Vivi is friends with Luffy and just so happened to befriend Shirahoshi during the reverie. That's two of the three mentioned above. Add to this, that Cobra might have asked something about the Poneglyph and the ancient history as hinted as him developing an interest at the end of Arabasta, and the WG might think that the Nefertari's went to far.
The difference is that with Luffy, Teach, and Shirahoshi, the threat they pose is based on them as individuals, and also happens to tie directly into battle power.
What you're suggesting doesn't allow Vivi to fit into that category:
-Teach has a strange power that allows him to eat multiple Devil Fruits
-Luffy has Joyboy's Devil Fruit
-Shirahoshi can control all the Sea Kings
-Vivi is a representative of her clan, who disagrees with the World GovernmentIt's just not enough to be pictured alongside those other 3.
There's going to have to be a twist.On the contrary I actually pointed out what made her special as individual, which is her having befriended two of the three. Not Cobra but her.
Also I don't know how much individuality counts here when the entire "return of our king" for Shirahoshi, respectively "Joy Boy has returned" for Luffy plotline seems to be a thing. For example there's been likely dozens of Gum Gum Fruit users within 800 years but the one that will make the difference is Luffy. At least if we go by Rogers words that timing is a factor. Why should Vivi be singled out here as an anomaly?
I'm not saying that there might not be other reasons for why Im had a picture of her. But dismissing what I suggest because of individuality, when pretty much everybody else likely has inherited what makes them individual seems a bit iffy to me.
Edit:
The more I think about it the more I believe that the Nefertari thing is actually very likely. The interesting question to ask here is why one of the founding families decided to not live in Maryjois. Back then it sounded like a pretty much neutral statement making the readers think "well, they might just have prefered it that way". But if we consider that the Nefertari family has been protecting the Poneglyph for generations, it's also possible that they disagreed with whatever the other 19 families pulled off and that they didn't want ot be part of it anymore. Rather they chose to protect the truth about what happened.What if that disagreement involves the Nefertari's befriending the Ds, Joy Boy or whoever was the enemy of the 20 families back then? I'm thinking of a scenario similar to the Saul-Olvia relation, which completely changed after Saul allowed Olvia to tell him her story. Don't see why the same thing couldn't have happened there.
The question to ask then is, why nobody remembers this treason until now. To which again the Poneglyph, the true history and the promise made come into play. While the purpose of those stones is to make sure the past doesn't get forgotten, secrecy (most likely for protection) seems also to be just as important. This can lead to important bits of information being forgotten over time. Just in Wano we had a ruling family seemingly having forgotten important points about what transpired in the past. Oden was shocked to have found out that it was the Kozuki's that closed off the country in the first place. Still he wanted to open the country. Perhaps that's what the Kozuki's of old wanted in the first place, but figured that until the promised day has come, the best course of action is to stay an isolated country to protect themselves.
I think the Nefertari's might be the same. They turned their back on the founding families. But the memories of why exactly they did likely have gotten lost over time. And it might be that only now, with Vivi befriending Luffy and Shirahoshi that an old bond from 800 years ago get's reformed again.
Just me speculating. I might be totally off on the subject.
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I think us getting a new character as the 11th has the lowest chance of happening. We only have 100 to 150 chapters left and I don't see us getting anymore lengthy island arcs. Obviously Zoro exists but he had the benefit of the entire series ahead of him. Not so much for a new character at this point.
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Eh, why do we have 100 to 150 chapters left?
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@Ivotas
Those are based on Oda saying One Piece was ending in "3 years" , but he also admited that this estimate was probably off.One year equals around 32-36 chapters
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I can see Oda pushing it to 5 years, which would be more than 150, but we're still talking the length of Wano plus a smaller arc left. I'm guessing most of that will be Final War stuff.
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I think Oda would love to end the series in 5 years so it would align with the 30th year anniversary. Could he though, without off-paneling or putting to the side so many things? It won't be like Wano where he can just cover things later.
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@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Ivotas
Those are based on Oda saying One Piece was ending in "3 years" , but he also admited that this estimate was probably off.One year equals around 32-36 chapters
Oh that. Yeah, I don't see that happening. Not saying Oda doesn't want to but I do think he won't be able to.
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Right. I'm thinking more consolidation than anything. What would have been its own arc is now being combined with other stuff, like Dressrosa and Greenbit.
If Elbaf ends up being Punk Hazard length then we are looking at over 5 years left and I'm wrong. I'm hoping for 10 more years, but I feel like that's wishful thinking, even considering Oda's statements in the past.
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@Ivotas
My own guess is that it's still 5-6 years and near 200 chapters ahead of us.What can you fit in 200 chapters?
- W7 epilogue + Thriller Bark + Sabaody + Amazon Lily + Impel Down + Marineford + Post-war
Or
- Dressrosa + Zou + WCI
Or
- Fishman Island + Punk Hazard + Wano Act 3
There’s a lot of room. And I don’t expect any arc will be as long as Wano
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@Zin-Magala said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
I think us getting a new character as the 11th has the lowest chance of happening. We only have 100 to 150 chapters left and I don't see us getting anymore lengthy island arcs. Obviously Zoro exists but he had the benefit of the entire series ahead of him. Not so much for a new character at this point.
Would prob be better to build on characters like Yamato I suppose. She’s pretty much an open book just waiting to get more interaction and greater purpose now that Act 3 is over.
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@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
She’s pretty much an open book just waiting to get more interaction and greater purpose now that Act 3 is over.
She had over seventy chapters to get "more interaction" though. That's 1.3 Thriller Barks. In roughly the same number of chapters Nami went from Orange Town to Arlong Park. Even Jinbe, despite frequently going in a different direction, got a metric ton of groundwork laid out for his introduction pre-ts and everytime he's returned since.
Oda meanwhile seemed to bend over backwards to put as much narrative and visual distance between Yamato and 90% of the Straw Hats, and even when they do interact Oda continues to present the scenes in such a way that the Straw Hats acknowledge Yamato as little as possible. If Oda had any interest in giving her a greater purpose beyond what's already been presented, he probably would've done so by now.
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@last-exit-to-laughtale said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
She’s pretty much an open book just waiting to get more interaction and greater purpose now that Act 3 is over.
She had over seventy chapters to get "more interaction" though. That's 1.3 Thriller Barks. In roughly the same number of chapters Nami went from Orange Town to Arlong Park. Even Jinbe, despite frequently going in a different direction, got a metric ton of groundwork laid out for his introduction pre-ts and everytime he's returned since.
Oda meanwhile seemed to bend over backwards to put as much narrative and visual distance between Yamato and 90% of the Straw Hats, and even when they do interact Oda continues to present the scenes in such a way that the Straw Hats acknowledge Yamato as little as possible. If Oda had any interest in giving her a greater purpose beyond what's already been presented, he probably would've done so by now.
Yep, over 70 chapters of all-out Onigashima fighting that pretty much took up everyone’s time and focus on Momo's rise to being shogun. I'm not saying that as an excuse, and I also agree with the suggestion that Oda could have squeezed in more focus before Chapter 1057, but that fact you suggest Oda purposefully bent over backwards to have Yamato not interact with the others beforehand to me only further suggests some sort of intent/plan there.
If it really wasn't a big deal whether Yamato interacted with the crew or not, then he wouldn't have bent over backwards, like you suggested, because bending over backwards does have intent to it. What that intent is, even I'm not fully sure, but once again, we'll have to see.
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@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
If it really wasn't a big deal whether Yamato interacted with the crew or not, then he wouldn't have bent over backwards, like you suggested, because bending over backwards does have intent to it. What that intent is, even I'm not fully sure, but once again, we'll have to see.
It being intention doesn't mean the only explanation is that it's in service of making Yamato somehow more important later down the line. Putting so much distance between her and the crew means that they have absolutely no emotional or thematic connection to her story whatsoever. And the fact that everything about her is connected to Wano, the main antagonist was her father, and her backstory has been presented without having ever been woven into the arcs of the other Straw Hats - that last one being a crucial element of every single Straw Hat's character arc - means there's no longer an organic avenue to do this. All the emotional resonance of her arc has been allotted to her bond with Momo instead.
If anything the distance put between Yamato and the main cast comes across more like a signal to readers to not get too attached, because she's essential to Wano's and Momo's stories but not intended to be a mainstay.
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@last-exit-to-laughtale said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
If it really wasn't a big deal whether Yamato interacted with the crew or not, then he wouldn't have bent over backwards, like you suggested, because bending over backwards does have intent to it. What that intent is, even I'm not fully sure, but once again, we'll have to see.
It being intention doesn't mean the only explanation is that it's in service of making Yamato somehow more important later down the line. Putting so much distance between her and the crew means that they have absolutely no emotional or thematic connection to her story whatsoever.
Well, then again, Robin didn't interact with the Straw Hats much before Vivi left, including her not having interacted with Chopper at all beforehand. Haha.
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@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@last-exit-to-laughtale said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
If it really wasn't a big deal whether Yamato interacted with the crew or not, then he wouldn't have bent over backwards, like you suggested, because bending over backwards does have intent to it. What that intent is, even I'm not fully sure, but once again, we'll have to see.
It being intention doesn't mean the only explanation is that it's in service of making Yamato somehow more important later down the line. Putting so much distance between her and the crew means that they have absolutely no emotional or thematic connection to her story whatsoever.
Well, then again, Robin didn't interact with the Straw Hats much before Vivi left, including her not having interacted with Chopper at all beforehand. Haha.
I've always considered this an extremely disingenuous argument given that Robin's situation is only similar to Yamato's if you completely ignore the context and individual circumstances of their respective arcs.
Robin may have been mysterious figure who weaved in and out of the story in Alabasta, but her very first appearance had her introduced to the Straw Hats all at once, and her initial joining very clearly lays out the groundwork for the emotional through-lines that will follow her all the way to Enies Lobby. Then comes Skypeia, which is meant to showcase to both the readers and the crew the real Nico Robin, completely entrenched in her element when she doesn't need to worry about the World Government breathing down her neck. It's only then, after all of that, we get her full backstory, which is simultaneously paralleled in Usopp's own arc, the conflict regarding the Merry, is interwoven into Franky's own backstory and character development, and further reinforced by the reactions and smaller arcs of the rest of the crew. Water 7/Enies Lobby even manages to shine a whole new light on the Robin from Alabasta, given the number of scenes where Luffy makes her laugh.
Comparable scenes for Yamato on the other hand are, again, allotted to Momo. They are depicted as foils of each other, much of their character arcs share similar motifs (like names and fathers), her backstory as a result is this made far more relevant to Momo and is even interwoven/mirrored in several places, and the framing of their scenes often invite direct comparisons between the two. Even the flashback where Yamato learns of Luffy's true dream through Ace is used to explicitly strengthen her bond with Momo, and results in the decisions he makes later in the arc. Not any of the Straw Hats, not even Luffy. To act like Yamato and Momo aren't a package deal by this point, with Momo having the far stronger connection to the crew, I think is a rather narrow reading of her character overall.
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@last-exit-to-laughtale said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@last-exit-to-laughtale said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
If it really wasn't a big deal whether Yamato interacted with the crew or not, then he wouldn't have bent over backwards, like you suggested, because bending over backwards does have intent to it. What that intent is, even I'm not fully sure, but once again, we'll have to see.
It being intention doesn't mean the only explanation is that it's in service of making Yamato somehow more important later down the line. Putting so much distance between her and the crew means that they have absolutely no emotional or thematic connection to her story whatsoever.
Well, then again, Robin didn't interact with the Straw Hats much before Vivi left, including her not having interacted with Chopper at all beforehand. Haha.
They are depicted as foils of each other, much of their character arcs share similar motifs (like names and fathers), her backstory as a result is this made far more relevant to Momo and is even interwoven/mirrored in several places, and the framing of their scenes often invite direct comparisons between the two. Even the flashback where Yamato learns of Luffy's true dream through Ace is used to explicitly strengthen her bond with Momo, and results in the decisions he makes later in the arc. Not any of the Straw Hats, not even Luffy. To act like Yamato and Momo aren't a package deal by this point, with Momo having the far stronger connection to the crew, I think is a rather narrow reading of her character overall.
Yep, Yamato never really had a Shanks figure in her life before I understand, so Yamato bonding with Momo and sharing a dream like Zoro/Kuina/, Sanji/Zeff, Franky/Tom, etc. did would possibly lend to her finally getting enough inspiration to sail out with greater purpose.
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@electricmastro I feel like you missed the entire point of my comment. Hell, you kinda prove what I mean when I say it's a narrow reading of her character. Similarities between characters and events mean nothing if the story makes no effort to draw those parallels while it can when the similar events are still relevant.
Yamato and Momo bonded and the relevant elements of their respective/characters were paralleled. Yamato didn't bond with the Straw Hats, and no effort is made in-story to draw parallels between any of them. Again, with 70+ chapters, if Oda had wanted to show the Yamato being important to the Straw Hats, and vice-versa, he would've done so.
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Robin had Jaya and Sky Piea to interact and bond with the crew before she got "her" arc. Yamato's arc has already happened, and he's not even with the crew.
When Robin joined, there were only hints of her past. It wasn't until Water 7 that it began to be explored. Meanwhile, Yamato's past was intrinsically linked to Onigashima, Wano, Oden, and Kaido. Yamato is already free, Kaido is already defeated, Oden's story is known.
I don't see an arc deepening our knowledge of Yamato nor exploring his personality ahead. The opportunity has come and gone.
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@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
The opportunity has come and gone.
You could say... the ship has sailed? (is shot)
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@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Zin-Magala I can definitely agree with that. I think Vivi will either become the final Nakama, or has too much importance in the plot to do so.
Either way, though, it's very likely she'll be riding along with the crew.
@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
I always figured that her being a Nefertari is what did the trick here. While Luffy, Teach and Shirahoshi most likely tie into the Ancient Weapons thing in one way or another (for Shirahoshi the connection is at least crystal clear) Vivi is tied to the past of the WG by being a descendant of the family that decided to not move to Marijois. The Five Elder Stars even said themselves, that they could "be considered as traitors". One might wonder, why this happens only now and they were seemingly ok with them being a country affiliated with the WG for 800 years but let's delve not into the incompetence of the WG, which is a topic worthy of a PhD thesis.
But to play devils advocate here. Why have a problem with the Nefertari's now and not within the 800 years before? Well, Vivi is friends with Luffy and just so happened to befriend Shirahoshi during the reverie. That's two of the three mentioned above. Add to this, that Cobra might have asked something about the Poneglyph and the ancient history as hinted as him developing an interest at the end of Arabasta, and the WG might think that the Nefertari's went to far.
The difference is that with Luffy, Teach, and Shirahoshi, the threat they pose is based on them as individuals, and also happens to tie directly into battle power.
What you're suggesting doesn't allow Vivi to fit into that category:
-Teach has a strange power that allows him to eat multiple Devil Fruits
-Luffy has Joyboy's Devil Fruit
-Shirahoshi can control all the Sea Kings
-Vivi is a representative of her clan, who disagrees with the World GovernmentIt's just not enough to be pictured alongside those other 3.
There's going to have to be a twist.On the contrary I actually pointed out what made her special as individual, which is her having befriended two of the three. Not Cobra but her.
Also I don't know how much individuality counts here when the entire "return of our king" for Shirahoshi, respectively "Joy Boy has returned" for Luffy plotline seems to be a thing. For example there's been likely dozens of Gum Gum Fruit users within 800 years but the one that will make the difference is Luffy. At least if we go by Rogers words that timing is a factor. Why should Vivi be singled out here as an anomaly?
I'm not saying that there might not be other reasons for why Im had a picture of her. But dismissing what I suggest because of individuality, when pretty much everybody else likely has inherited what makes them individual seems a bit iffy to me.
Edit:
The more I think about it the more I believe that the Nefertari thing is actually very likely. The interesting question to ask here is why one of the founding families decided to not live in Maryjois. Back then it sounded like a pretty much neutral statement making the readers think "well, they might just have prefered it that way". But if we consider that the Nefertari family has been protecting the Poneglyph for generations, it's also possible that they disagreed with whatever the other 19 families pulled off and that they didn't want ot be part of it anymore. Rather they chose to protect the truth about what happened.What if that disagreement involves the Nefertari's befriending the Ds, Joy Boy or whoever was the enemy of the 20 families back then? I'm thinking of a scenario similar to the Saul-Olvia relation, which completely changed after Saul allowed Olvia to tell him her story. Don't see why the same thing couldn't have happened there.
The question to ask then is, why nobody remembers this treason until now. To which again the Poneglyph, the true history and the promise made come into play. While the purpose of those stones is to make sure the past doesn't get forgotten, secrecy (most likely for protection) seems also to be just as important. This can lead to important bits of information being forgotten over time. Just in Wano we had a ruling family seemingly having forgotten important points about what transpired in the past. Oden was shocked to have found out that it was the Kozuki's that closed off the country in the first place. Still he wanted to open the country. Perhaps that's what the Kozuki's of old wanted in the first place, but figured that until the promised day has come, the best course of action is to stay an isolated country to protect themselves.
I think the Nefertari's might be the same. They turned their back on the founding families. But the memories of why exactly they did likely have gotten lost over time. And it might be that only now, with Vivi befriending Luffy and Shirahoshi that an old bond from 800 years ago get's reformed again.
Just me speculating. I might be totally off on the subject.
I think it's pretty clear that the Nefertari clan is going to serve a similar purpose to the Kouzuki clan and the Ryugu clan; as old allies of Joyboy/Ancient Kingdom.
The only point I'm trying to make is it's hard to imagine Vivi herself having an impact on the scale of Shirahoshi or Luffy when her threat level has no ties to battle power.
Maybe she can summon a large army? Maybe she can win over the rebellions going on world-wide? Whatever it is, it should be tied to battle power.
@Deicide
Completely agree on the time frame. I think Oda is going to rush things, and there will be a lot of unfortunate cuts reminiscent of the ending of Wano, but we'll end up getting close to chapter 1300. -
@last-exit-to-laughtale said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@electricmastro I feel like you missed the entire point of my comment. Hell, you kinda prove what I mean when I say it's a narrow reading of her character. Similarities between characters and events mean nothing if the story makes no effort to draw those parallels while it can when the similar events are still relevant.
Yamato and Momo bonded and the relevant elements of their respective/characters were paralleled. Yamato didn't bond with the Straw Hats, and no effort is made in-story to draw parallels between any of them. Again, with 70+ chapters, if Oda had wanted to show the Yamato being important to the Straw Hats, and vice-versa, he would've done so.
Well sorry to hear about the narrowness then. I partially disagree with the no bonding though, because of the eating and the festival and such. I don't think all the fighting from Chapter 986 onwards would have given much opportunity for bonding with the Straw Hats before Kaido was defeated though, so I can understand why Yamato could talk to Momo more, since he didn't really have to fight or heal others like Luffy, Chopper, and the others were doing, so I don't feel he could have "organically" could have done it so casually like you suggest, since that might have enviably interfered in their one on one fights, but I guess we'll never know.
Anyways, that's all over now, so I'm just looking forward to getting to know what does end up happening to the characters from here, so I'm excited.
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@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Zin-Magala I can definitely agree with that. I think Vivi will either become the final Nakama, or has too much importance in the plot to do so.
Either way, though, it's very likely she'll be riding along with the crew.
@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
I always figured that her being a Nefertari is what did the trick here. While Luffy, Teach and Shirahoshi most likely tie into the Ancient Weapons thing in one way or another (for Shirahoshi the connection is at least crystal clear) Vivi is tied to the past of the WG by being a descendant of the family that decided to not move to Marijois. The Five Elder Stars even said themselves, that they could "be considered as traitors". One might wonder, why this happens only now and they were seemingly ok with them being a country affiliated with the WG for 800 years but let's delve not into the incompetence of the WG, which is a topic worthy of a PhD thesis.
But to play devils advocate here. Why have a problem with the Nefertari's now and not within the 800 years before? Well, Vivi is friends with Luffy and just so happened to befriend Shirahoshi during the reverie. That's two of the three mentioned above. Add to this, that Cobra might have asked something about the Poneglyph and the ancient history as hinted as him developing an interest at the end of Arabasta, and the WG might think that the Nefertari's went to far.
The difference is that with Luffy, Teach, and Shirahoshi, the threat they pose is based on them as individuals, and also happens to tie directly into battle power.
What you're suggesting doesn't allow Vivi to fit into that category:
-Teach has a strange power that allows him to eat multiple Devil Fruits
-Luffy has Joyboy's Devil Fruit
-Shirahoshi can control all the Sea Kings
-Vivi is a representative of her clan, who disagrees with the World GovernmentIt's just not enough to be pictured alongside those other 3.
There's going to have to be a twist.On the contrary I actually pointed out what made her special as individual, which is her having befriended two of the three. Not Cobra but her.
Also I don't know how much individuality counts here when the entire "return of our king" for Shirahoshi, respectively "Joy Boy has returned" for Luffy plotline seems to be a thing. For example there's been likely dozens of Gum Gum Fruit users within 800 years but the one that will make the difference is Luffy. At least if we go by Rogers words that timing is a factor. Why should Vivi be singled out here as an anomaly?
I'm not saying that there might not be other reasons for why Im had a picture of her. But dismissing what I suggest because of individuality, when pretty much everybody else likely has inherited what makes them individual seems a bit iffy to me.
Edit:
The more I think about it the more I believe that the Nefertari thing is actually very likely. The interesting question to ask here is why one of the founding families decided to not live in Maryjois. Back then it sounded like a pretty much neutral statement making the readers think "well, they might just have prefered it that way". But if we consider that the Nefertari family has been protecting the Poneglyph for generations, it's also possible that they disagreed with whatever the other 19 families pulled off and that they didn't want ot be part of it anymore. Rather they chose to protect the truth about what happened.What if that disagreement involves the Nefertari's befriending the Ds, Joy Boy or whoever was the enemy of the 20 families back then? I'm thinking of a scenario similar to the Saul-Olvia relation, which completely changed after Saul allowed Olvia to tell him her story. Don't see why the same thing couldn't have happened there.
The question to ask then is, why nobody remembers this treason until now. To which again the Poneglyph, the true history and the promise made come into play. While the purpose of those stones is to make sure the past doesn't get forgotten, secrecy (most likely for protection) seems also to be just as important. This can lead to important bits of information being forgotten over time. Just in Wano we had a ruling family seemingly having forgotten important points about what transpired in the past. Oden was shocked to have found out that it was the Kozuki's that closed off the country in the first place. Still he wanted to open the country. Perhaps that's what the Kozuki's of old wanted in the first place, but figured that until the promised day has come, the best course of action is to stay an isolated country to protect themselves.
I think the Nefertari's might be the same. They turned their back on the founding families. But the memories of why exactly they did likely have gotten lost over time. And it might be that only now, with Vivi befriending Luffy and Shirahoshi that an old bond from 800 years ago get's reformed again.
Just me speculating. I might be totally off on the subject.
I think it's pretty clear that the Nefertari clan is going to serve a similar purpose to the Kouzuki clan and the Ryugu clan; as old allies of Joyboy/Ancient Kingdom.
The only point I'm trying to make is it's hard to imagine Vivi herself having an impact on the scale of Shirahoshi or Luffy when her threat level has no ties to battle power.
Maybe she can summon a large army? Maybe she can win over the rebellions going on world-wide? Whatever it is, it should be tied to battle power.
@Deicide
Completely agree on the time frame. I think Oda is going to rush things, and there will be a lot of unfortunate cuts reminiscent of the ending of Wano, but we'll end up getting close to chapter 1300.That's what I'm saying, it's written nowhere that everyone on those pictures needs to have something to do battle power. Im just might be really, really butthurt.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Ivotas
My own guess is that it's still 5-6 years and near 200 chapters ahead of us.What can you fit in 200 chapters?
- W7 epilogue + Thriller Bark + Sabaody + Amazon Lily + Impel Down + Marineford + Post-war
Or
- Dressrosa + Zou + WCI
Or
- Fishman Island + Punk Hazard + Wano Act 3
There’s a lot of room. And I don’t expect any arc will be as long as Wano
Lol, what's this, a new measuring unit? Fine, I'll jump in on the fun by saying that I wouldn't be surprised to see the remainder of One Piece take between 269 and 369 Gimon arcs.
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So. Chapter 1059 is out... Where to begin?
I've waited this for 457 chapters and almost 12 years! And, well, my theory is dead. Hancock was not captured. I could only think of two outcomes for the raid in Amazon Lily: either Hancock won or she lost. The first option would mean her status quo wouldn't change. The second would send her on a journey that could potentially lead Luffy to her.
But I could NEVER imagine Blackbeard and Rayleigh would intrude and change the possible outcomes.
So, Hancock avoided capture. But, just as this chapter closed that venue, it opened new ones.
You see, I expected three requirements, in any order, for Hancock to join the crew:
- Be taken away from her people and her responsibilities
- Have her past explored and her traumas dealt with
- Meet Luffy again
This chapter dropped the opportunity to explore her past, at least in the short term.
On the other hand, it still provided her the necessity to leave the island and be separated from her people. Now, there's two world powers gunning for her head, and staying as Empress means endangering the Kuja. The first thing she declares is that "enemies will keep coming as long as I'm here". And then, "if that's so, I want to go and marry Luffy". And it makes no sense for her to seek anyone but him.
Of course, there's the matter of how she will locate the Straw Hats and reach them. However, she's with Rayleigh, an extremely crafty man who may provide her with ways to take her path. He was, after all, the guy who convinced Luffy to wait and train for two years before the crew could reform, and devised a way to alert everyone.
For now, I don't have any new theory on how things will progress. I need to see what next arc will be about, and what ways the story will provide for her to find Luffy. It could happen as early as next arc, or as late as the final great battle.
I'm cautiously optimistic, and eagerly waiting for her next appearances!
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I think the moment Hancock was shown overwhelming two of Blackbeard's commanders and with a bounty that's way above any other SH, her chances as a new Straw Hat have pretty much died down.
We can talk about "oh, but they weren't prepared", but I don't think Oda would've made Hancock look this powerful against one of the final antagonist groups if he was intending to make her join. The clear intention here appears that he wants her to be her own major faction like the other Warlords, especially if Rayleigh decides to stick around with her.
Plus, the logistics issues as mentioned before. She's still in Paradise and with no real way to track Luffy.
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Also Luffy doesn't need a second former warlord on the crew.
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@Kaiolino That makes no sense since the Warlords are not the same. Characters are more than just their (abolished) title.
As we discussed in the spoiler thread, I'm sure Hancock will face opponents better equipped or prepared to deal with her powers. Besides, I don't think the story has revealed all the ways to avoid or overcome them. Just like Law and Robin, who had crazy OP powers before they became protagonists (quasi-, in Law's case), I'm sure Hancock's powers will get slight nerfs. There's no Devil Fruits without weaknesses, especially once they are in the heroes' hands.
I even still think Catarina Devon is still Boa Hancock's counterpart in the Blackbeard Pirates. This encounter can provide her the means to be later prepared, and Devon's shapeshifting powers can be quite interesting to explore Hancock's traumas.
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I think Yamato's current situation is like Jimbe's after Fishman Island and we'll see Yamato join in the future before the final arc. It could happen in the next 50 chapters or 100.
As for Carrot, after we got flashbacks of Marco and Yamato in chapter 1059, I expect we'll at least get another flashback for Carrot too in the next few chapters in case she didn't stowaway (which is unlikely). Her situation will get more clear and a little more satisfying one way or another.
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@Deicide Sorry, but Oda doesn't really make rematches like that unless the hero was the one who got defeated, giving them the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. It's also unlikely that Devon's bounty is even close to Hancock's to make her look like an actual threat.
The implication, again, is that Hancock is beyond the level of a regular Emperor commander, much like how we've been seeing lately with all the ridiculous bounty jumps. In this one chapter, Hancock rather effortlessly defeated two Emperor commanders and a vice-admiral and had her fruit specifically sought out by the top powers of the world. That to me indicates someone akin to Law, who's not a crewmate but still powerful ally with their own special gimmick.
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@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
I think Yamato's current situation is like Jimbe's after Fishman Island and we'll see Yamato join in the future before the final arc.
Hmm, could this be a reason Episode 1,000's opening included these two in a blink-and-you-miss moment?
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Caesar Clown has basically "defeated" Katakuri and Oven in a single attack in the last cover page. These overpower devil fruits have these crazy opportunities to beat strong opponents out of guard.
So I would't put it beyond Devon to be able to fight well against Hancock and even get the upper hand in another circunstance.
But I don't think Hancock will ever join the crew.
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@King-Cannon I don't think Oda sticks to formulas like that. Just because Devon was defeated off-panel by an overpowering ability doesn't mean she can't have a rematch, now able to deal with that ability.
The Blackbeard Pirates are rising in power just like the Straw Hats. We've saw Blackbeard and his goons lose many fights, and yet we all know they'll be a threat in the future. They are not in their final state, unlike most other villains.
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Now that Yamato has gotten the proper closure he should have gotten weeks ago, we're right back at the situation from over two years ago: Carrot is the most realistic possible candidate left, but has not achieved much even in all this time. If Yamato and Momo and Kin are all honorary crewmates, Carrot definitely is, but she hasn't gotten any conclusion with the crew or her own story. No moment to shine, has not moved onward, no understanding that Pedro said she would gain.
So what's the game plan here? Is she just going to pop up on the Sunny and join just because she's there? Because that seems a distinct possibility based on the precedent Cat, Dog and she herself set by stowing away. But what I hope to see is that she makes her case to the crew why she needs to go with them. I want to see some hint of a goal she can only achieve by being on the crew of the King of the Pirates. That's what Pedro wanted but could never have, that was his true will. If Carrot can do that, if Oda can stick that landing, I believe she will justify why it was only her and no one else who needs to be Luffy's 10th person.
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@theackwardstation Eh, I've personally never been able to buy into Yamato being a Jinbe situation just because of difference in framing. The first time Yamato ever brings up wanting to be on Luffy's ship, Luffy ignored the question altogether to instead focus on the part of her statement about Oden. Afterwards when Luffy's offering to break the cuff in exchange for joining them in defeating Kaido, he words so that an invitation on his ship isn't included despite knowing that it's what she wants. Even in 1059 this pattern is continued somewhat, with Luffy's back being turned to the viewer and having him him cast in shadow when Yamato once again brings up desire to be a crewmate; which is furthered by the dialogue, where the fan translations have Luffy once again ignoring the crewmate part of the statement to talk about Wano and Momo, while the in Viz translations Luffy's response doesn't necessarily ignore Yamato's statement, but he does sound... a little annoyed and almost dismissive? before then going back to the subject of Wano and Momo. Either way there's almost zero enthusiasm for Yamato exclusively, and the subject always circles back to Momo.
Compared to the panel's of Jinbe making a similar declarations, the tone is completely different. Luffy faces the viewer so they can see his determination, his words are loud and confident, and he leaves zero room for doubt on the subject.
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@last-exit-to-laughtale in this chapter Luffy is TOTALLY onboard with Yamato joining the crew. He literally says "you're not going with us? Let's be pirates together!!". Luffy was even upset with Yamato's reasoning, but had to roll with it.
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@theackwardstation Yeah, and that frame is an extreme wide establishing shot where none of the characters are actually visible. The actual panel where Yamato actually says "I want to be a crewmate" none of Luffy's enthusiasm is on screen.
Again, compared to Jinbe, the response to Yamato staying behind is rather tepid.
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@Deicide Maybe not for Blackbeard since it's hinted he can hold more fruits, but the commanders are not really going to get much stronger than what they are now (especially since Hancock has CoC so she DOES have room to get even stronger). We're just too near the endgame.
Hancock, from the way she was depicted here, is just too overpowering, with feats very similar to Law's (beat a Vice-Admiral and two commanders from a major figure). It pretty much required an Emperor to defeat her. Robin is already quite a problem to juggle by herself so I don't see Oda adding another potentially troublesome power.
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@theackwardstation What I believe @last-exit-to-laughtale means is that, while yes, Luffy has accfepted Yamato as a crewmate at this point, the story never went the extra mile of emphasizing the decision visually.
For all purposes, Yamato is a Straw Hat in-story, but not from a meta perspective. And it may be that, when that situation changes, the story may be too close to its end to matter. IF Yamato doesn't get a new purpose in his future cover story or off-screen adventure during his stay in Wano.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@Deicide Maybe not for Blackbeard since it's hinted he can hold more fruits, but the commanders are not really going to get much stronger than what they are now. We're just too near the endgame.
Hancock, from the way she was depicted here, is just too overpowering, with feats very similar to Law's (beat a Vice-Admiral and two commanders from a major figure). It pretty much required an Emperor to defeat her. Robin is already quite a problem to juggle by herself so I don't see Oda adding another potentially troublesome power.
I disagree again. Blackbeard's crew will still be a threat, and most likely that will be cemented in an event in which we finally see what they are capable of.
As for Hancock's fruit, it's just as every overpowered ability: once it's bypassed or it's weakness is found, it either becomes useless or manageable, forcing the user to rely on its physical skills. That's pretty much what I expect to happen to her. It will be then that her real combat power will be made clear.
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This chapter was all I needed to see when it comes to Hancock. She had a very small chance in my eyes, but I was willing to wait and see based on her status. I've settled on Hancock and Vivi not being the 11th.
I guess I'm riding the "nobody is joining" train until something interesting happens.
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How the fuck are people still in the tank for Hancock, it's been 12 goddamn years.
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@Deicide Well, more that based on how the scenes are presented make Momo very much the focus. The scene where Luffy gives Momo his flag a declares that they are crew/nakama, Momo is very much at the center of this. Yamato and Kin'emon are given invites as an extension of the Momo's big scene, linking the three invites with Momo at the center.
So Yamato to me seems like a package deal with Momo and Kin'emon at this point, and as such I don't really see any one of them being reintroduced without the other two in tow.