I agree it would feel more awkward for Oda to show Luffy defeating Kaido before finishing the other fights going on like with Black Maria, Ulti, and Queen.
I wonder what order we’ll get the battles in
I still hope we’ll get a Sanji and Marco aerial battle against King and Queen (with his super stretchy/cyborg head that can shoot laser beams it basically still counts as aerial)
I wonder what order we’ll get the battles in
I still hope we’ll get a Sanji and Marco aerial battle against King and Queen (with his super stretchy/cyborg head that can shoot laser beams it basically still counts as aerial)
I’m honestly interested in Chopper going up against Queen all the way, in light of seeing others say that only Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji should take on higher bounty enemies.
I’m honestly interested in Chopper going up against up against Queen all the way, in light of seeing others say that only Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji should take on higher bounty enemies.
Chopper getting time to shine would be great! I hope he gets a real bounty at the end of this arc, it was funny at first but now I want to see him recognized as the threat he is
Chopper getting time to shine would be great! I hope he gets a real bounty at the end of this arc, it was funny at first but now I want to see him recognized as the threat he is
I always found it weird how he was referred to as being in a weakling trio, even though the potential for Monster Point to cause massive damage was always there. For some it may seem a little too out of field for Chopper to be going up against a 1 billion+ bounty antagonist, but that probably says more at how much untapped potential Chopper’s fighting style has had this entire time.
Phenomenal chapter, each rooftop chapter just seems to be better than the last
It doesn't matter how obvious in hindsight Zoro getting CoC, actually seeing it confirmed , much less right after he scarred Zoro, ust felt so surreal. Same for seeing Asura exactly 500 chapters later. Likewise, Luffy finally figuring out how to truly injure Kaido was a great moment, that also recontexualizes several of the past Haki clashes we've seen in the past. I like how it mirrors Enies Lobby, where Luffy's initial loss to CP9 is what allowed him to come up with Gears. Likewise, Kaido inadvertently showed Luffy what Conqueror's Haki is truly capable. The choreography from that point onwards was just beautiful, that uppercut in particular is easily one of the best panels in the arc.
Said it in the spoiler thread, for those complaining about Luffy getting back up and "shrugging" off Kaido's attacks.
Just pretend this was the final panel on the last page
Phenomenal chapter, each rooftop chapter just seems to be better than the last
It doesn't matter how obvious in hindsight Zoro getting CoC, actually seeing it confirmed , much less right after he scarred Zoro, ust felt so surreal. Same for seeing Asura exactly 500 chapters later. Likewise, Luffy finally figuring out how to truly injure Kaido was a great moment, that also recontexualizes several of the past Haki clashes we've seen in the past. I like how it mirrors Enies Lobby, where Luffy's initial loss to CP9 is what allowed him to come up with Gears. Likewise, Kaido inadvertently showed Luffy what Conqueror's Haki is truly capable. The choreography from that point onwards was just beautiful, that uppercut in particular is easily one of the best panels in the arc.
It’s funny, because I’ve seen some say it was “obvious” yet it was never really something I actively thought about. I suppose I should think more about it, seeing as how Zoro said he wasn’t familiar with what Kaido was talking about, so that might go as far as to indicate that Mihawk might not have told Zoro about this approach to using Haki, even though they say it’s “obvious” the strongest swordsman should know about using Conqueror’s Haki as a coating.
It’s funny, because I’ve seen some say it was “obvious” yet it was never really something I actively thought about. I suppose I should think about more about it, seeing as how Zoro said he wasn’t familiar with what Kaido was talking about, so that might go as far as to indicate that Mihawk might not have told Zoro about this approach to using Haki, even though they say it’s “obvious” the strongest swordsman should know about using Conqueror’s Haki as a coating.
It was always on my mind, especially after Katakuri. But at the same time I thought it was odd that he hadn't unlocked it yet given that he can proficiently use other forms of Haki.
But I guess Zoro is just a late bloomer when all is said and done. Hell even now it's not like it's fully awakened. As for Zoro saying he didn't know, yea I just took it as him meaning he's only aware of CoC as that thing people do to take down fodder. All this extra stuff, including what Luffy just did, is all brand new to the Strawhats.
Asura is a cool technique but i'm kinda mad at how lazy Oda is when portraying it.
Zoro's pose this chapter is virtually the same as the one he made when used Asura on PX-4 in Saboady. there's nothing in the picture to indicate what exactly is the difference between "Makyusen" and "Deadman's Gamble" besides, maybe, CoC.
I found this post by u/herrsebbe in Reddit that makes a lot of sense.
Essentially, it appears we were all mistaken about what old man Hyogoro taugh Luffy. Armament Haki allows you to damage things, but the "internal damage" part is only possible throught Conqueror Haki. That's why Hyou says that Luffy breaking the shackles is something beyond his own abilities. Full post here:
When 1010 came out I, like many others, found the development of Luffy channeling Supreme King haki insanely hype, but also a good bit confusing. I could not fully make sense of why Supreme King haki was suddenly being used as synonymous to powerful Armament haki, coating oneself for defense and powering up one's punches or weapons.
Then when I read official translation however, something dawned on me that I had to go back and check. Having done this, I now think we (or at least I) may have misunderstood what advanced Armament haki is, and so I'd like to go over an interpretation of the text that I found to better fit with the sudden development of Luffy learning to infuse his attacks with Supreme King haki.
This is based in the Viz translation, which diverges in some ways from the TCB one. For one thing there is no mention of "coating" oneself in Supreme King haki. Luffy only remarks on "infusing objects" with it. The Viz translation may for all I know be in the wrong. I don't know Japanese. Another important aspect is Hyogoro talking specifically about Luffy's form of haki in the teaching flashbacks, not haki in general. He says "The haki you wield penetrates and destroys the enemy from the inside". This one line got me thinking, and so I went back to volumes 93-94 to go over the introduction of advanced armament.
Indeed, the order goes:
1). Luffy knocks out some fodder in the ring using Supreme King haki. Hyogoro witnesses it and Queen calls it such.
2). Hyogoro notices Luffy using their fight for survival for training. He asks what he's trying to do, and Luffy explains that he thinks using haki without touching his foes is key to defeating Kaido. Hyogoro picks up on his words and shows that he knows how to do that. Nothing is said about destroying enemies or objects from within.
3). Big Mom shows up and Luffy is forced by circumstance to destroy the collars.
4). Hyogoro reacts in awe. He thinks to himself: "Straw Hat fellow, the power you just exhibited… is already beyond any application of ryou I can teach you." Soon after he explains to Luffy: "All that I can teach you of ryou... or what you call haki... is that which covers the outside. It can be used for defense, like invisible armor... or it can be converted to offensive us to great effect!! But... when you go one level beyond that... the haki you wield can penetrate the enemy's interior and destroy them from inside. […] Those steel collars were destroyed from the inside by your haki. You can already do it!! You already know how to infuse yourself with outward haki…!! But you do it unconsciously."
I believe what is being conveyed here is that Supreme King haki is what can destroy from within. When thought of this way, the language fits for both the way it makes weaker foes pass out and the way it breaks down solid matter.
Advanced haki usage would here be the ability to channel it outwards at all. For armament purposes, this lets you block and attack without touching an enemy, whereas Supreme King haki would let you bypass defenses and "destroy from within".
This could have all been contradicted in the manga already, or might be contradicted in the future. However it's something I noticed that makes the 1010 moment make much more sense to me. It makes the power-up less dramatic, and rather comes down to the logical realization of Luffy's that he should be channeling his Supreme King color rather than his Armament color to get at Kaido, while still doing what he was already doing.
So up until now, Luffy would've only been hitting Kaido with powerful punches flowing out from his body, onto Kaido, who was probably protecting himself with powerful defensive haki to match. Now that he figured out to use Supreme King haki, he's instead hitting him just as strong as before, and on top of that channeling haki to bypass armament defenses and hurt him from within.
What do you guys think? Does this make sense? For those of you who speak Japanese, does this interpretation lend itself to the original text?
Or worse, was this already commonly understood to be the case and I was just late to the punch?
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
This is a hell of chapter with some big hype behind it. Everyone here mainly for the fights is eating well. I had a great time reading it, but there were two little things that didn't sit spectacularly with me. But I wanna get some miscellaneous thoughts out of the way first.
I enjoyed Law saying outright he'd consider the plan a failure if anyone died. This has always been his character, but as recently as this arc he still trying to project this edgy persona saying anyone who got captured should be prepared for torture and death (before running off to sacrifice himself for the first people who got captured).
Big Mom and Prometheus cutting Zeus off confirms more than ever that he's going to make it back to Nami and probably be a permanent part of her arsenal.
I don't think Kid and Killer taking on Big Mom is the final matchup for her. It doesn't feel climactic. It doesn't feel personal. Kid's had his skirmishes in Big Mom's terrirory, sure, but that doesn't feel like enough. There'll be something else here, I'm sure of it. Maybe the currently-opponentless Sanji will show up and get a chance to ask her what she ddi with his family. Or after their individual matchups, the Strawhats come in to challenge her as a group, proving they're still in the ballpark of what Luffy can take on.
Zoro brings out the long-neglected fan favourite Asura, wounds Kaido and is all-but confirmed to have Conqueror's Haki. It's an amazing showcase for a character who's had some great moments but hasn't really been challenged since the timeskip. Prior to this, I could have gone either way on the theories about him having the haki, so I appreciate that Zoro seems to feel the same way. Being the lucky one in a million with the special haki is immeterial to him and his goals. He'd be shooting for the top one way or the other.
As good as the last sequence is, it's where I have some misgivings about the chapter. Is it just me, or would the moment where Luffy stands up again have worked much better if we'd had the panels showing Luffy was unconscious in the last chapter, directly after Ragnaraku? Without seeing how much damage he actually took at the time, I didn't feel all that much tension about Luffy's status and whether or not he'd be up again this chapter. Even accounting for haki, enduring big hits and bouncing back is Luffy's whole deal. If Oda wants me to think Luffy's in trouble after an attack, he's gotta sell it a tiny bit more. Even just that one whited-out-eyes panel is enough to send the message, but not if it comes up this late.
If we'd had it last week, not only do we get to spend a whole week speculating on when or how he'll get back up, or if he'll need medical intervention to get a second wind, but having Luffy be definitively down before it starts would make the operation to remove Big Mom feel all the more critical. Luffy having been down for a week would make Zoro and Law's last stand feel even more desperate. We feel more satisfied when Luffy finally does get up because we've had to wait all that much longer for it.
But maybe I'm overthinking things. I haven't done a proper reread of Onigashima since it started so I'm only taking about the week to week pacing. It'll probably feel better on the volume reread, as is often the case. When you're doing these things a chapter at a time, it's easy to loose track of the forest among the trees.
And the other point of contention here is the Conqueror's Haki revelation. I think CoC worked better when it mostly was just a fodder filter and a way for top level fighters to dickmeasure about their ambitions before they smack each other around. Sure, it's always had a physical component - Shanks' haki warped and broke the Moby Dick's deck; Luffy and Katakuri's combined use cracked the floor and shattered pillars in the Mirroworld; and Usopp's lie about his haki causing earthquakes was broadly deemed believable - but this is the first time we've seen it used directly for offence.
I think they way the powerup is portrayed muddies the water a lot with Luffy's last powerup - the haki projection and injection he learned from Hyogoro. We know Luffy picked that up because we saw him destroy the collars, blow up the tree before the raid and do substantial harm to Kaido with his regular attacks, but the dialogue here feels like the move only truly clicks when you add offensive CoC to the mix as well. Even though we know they're two different things, Oda hasn't made it distinct enough where CoA ends and CoC begins, or if Luffy's using just CoC instead of both at once, or any other way it might be, which makes the initial advanced armament powerup feel a little cheaper. And it feels like the highest level techniques are only for the one in a million with the special haki (plus training to be one of the "handful of the very strongest" on top of that). We've yet to see anyone without CoC do the clash-without-touching thing.
It's definitely always been a little bit of a thing that Luffy was born special (CoC, Voice of All Things, Will of the D, liniage of the Navy's hero and the Revolutionary), and that's not inherently a bad thing, but it has so rarely felt like those factors are so much of a leg up over any other pirate trying to get by on guts alone.
There's definitely more we have to learn about all of this, and a few quick remarks in the middle of combat aren't the best way to learn about a new skill, so I'm going to reserve my final judgement on it until we get some post-battle or SBS elaboration. We don't know how much of an edge CoC gives over reaching advanced CoA the hard way. We also don't know if there's a secret interaction between CoC and CoO as well, which would at least make things feel better thought out than a straight last-minute offensive boost. But for now, it's not sitting quite right with me.
And that's the chapter. The final panel is a great callback to a highlight from earlier in the arc and should definitely be remembered as the moment there was no longer any possible doubt about the raid succeeding and Kaido going down, at least from a narrative standpoint. But as climactic as all this feels, there's no way this is the final stage of the fight. Even though we've had the traditional small fakeout defeat for Luffy and a come from behind with a new technique. There's too much still happening down below to wrap up the main event. The pendulum has to swing back Kaido's way at least one more time. Which means there's probably a more substantial near-death moment for some more new skills (probably a new Gear form implementing the new haki) for Luffy at some point in the future, but probably after another status update from the characters fighting inside.
I always found it weird how he was referred to as being in a weakling trio, even though the potential for Monster Point to cause massive damage was always there. For some it may seem a little too out of field for Chopper to being going up against a 1 billion+ bounty antagonist, but that probably says more at how much untapped potential Chopper’s fighting style has had this entire time.
The fact that he can actually hurt a tank like a Queen goes to show he’s no weakling
I found this post by u/herrsebbe in Reddit that makes a lot of sense.
Essentially, it appears we were all mistaken about what old man Hyogoro taugh Luffy. Armament Haki allows you to damage things, but the "internal damage" part is only possible throught Conqueror Haki. That's why Hyou says that Luffy breaking the shackles is something beyond his own abilities. Full post here:
I think that theory is actually spot on. When Luffy first tried to replicate how Rayleigh and Sentomaru used Haki Hyogoro demonstrates that same skill. However when Luffy destroys the collars Hyogoro thinks to himself "He just used–!!" and follows it up with "It is in the midst of danger that power truly blossoms!!!" and "The power you just exhibited is already beyond any application of Ryuo I can teach you." So he actually established that this type of Haki essentially gets Saiyan-like powerups, making it completely natural for Luffy to realise it right here and now.
Hyogoro also says this:
We know exactly one type of Haki application that gets sent outward, CoC blasts.
CoC has been outward/emission Haki all along and Oda has hidden the breadcrumbs in plain sight.
Nice post, but I think whoever wrote that is overlooking how Luffy was already damaging Kaido before this chapter, which should only be possible by bypassing the exterior.
Luffy could have used a weaker version of it, the same level that he already used unconsciously to remove the collars and Yamato's handcuffs. And now that he realizes the trick behind it he can consciously apply it to its full extent, leading to the barrier effect.
Nice post, but I think whoever wrote that is overlooking how Luffy was already damaging Kaido before this chapter, which should only be possible by bypassing the exterior.
But the point is that flowing CoA can damage Kaido, as the Scabbards showed, but the big damage attacks that come from the inside require CoC.
The big problem is that we already saw Luffy doing internal destruction with a tree and Yamato's handcuffs intentionally, leading people to ask why Kaido was suddenly an issue.
Hmm but Luffy used the internal destruction part on that tree, no?
So wasn't that with CoA?
Okay, I'm confused. But it's 2am here so that's not surprising. Time to go to bed and think about it tomorrow
The big problem is that we already saw Luffy doing internal destruction with a tree and Yamato's handcuffs intentionally, leading people to ask why Kaido was suddenly an issue.
@Sibersk:
Hmm but Luffy used the internal destruction part on that tree, no?
[qimg]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e5c68f8c6015333b7f2749982c66da0[/qimg]
So wasn't that with CoA?
My take is that Luffy was misunderstanding what he was actually doing. The tree was one try after several days, the cuffs were him repeating something he did before. But Hyogoro made it clear that he himself couldn't do such things (or else Hyogoro would be able to take off his own cuffs, as he was shown capable of using advanced CoA).
Oda needs to clarify a lot of things, but I think the theory is sound.
The fact that he can actually hurt a tank like a Queen goes to show he’s no weakling
Yep, either Chopper is capable or he isn’t, and I won’t hesitate to give credit where it’s due, regardless of what the situation was like in the past.
Yea I dunno about that interpretation given stuff like the tree and handcuffs.
Also if we stick with reading it that way, would that mean that Sabo has CoC then given his destruction of the Colosseum?
After some re-reading I noticed there are two types of advacned armament. First level is attacking enemy without making contact, which is what Hyogoro and Sentomaru displayed. Second level is destroying things from inside, which is what Scabbards and Luffy displayed to damage Kaido.
So maybe Luffy was only using second advacned armament all this time on the rooftop, and just happened to fully utilize first level of armament, at the same time as he learned the advanced type of Hashoshoku. That's my understanding of the whole haki confusion.
Yea I dunno about that interpretation given stuff like the tree and handcuffs.
Also if we stick with reading it that way, would that mean that Sabo has CoC then given his destruction of the Colosseum?
That was just him finding the breakpoint of the collateral damages done by Burgess to the colosseum.
So Luffy already has one leg in the top tier world of OP, only needs awakening to reach the endgame. Zoro too, if he can imbue his attacks with CoC, that's it.
Meanwhile, Law without advanced CoA and even CoC could hurt Kaido, I guess Ope-ope is that OP lol.
Next chapter I guess we're back to switching POV around, need to see the progress of crew's fight with the Tobi Roppo and Calamities.
And the other point of contention here is the Conqueror's Haki revelation. I think CoC worked better when it mostly was just a fodder filter and a way for top level fighters to dickmeasure about their ambitions before they smack each other around. Sure, it's always had a physical component - Shanks' haki warped and broke the Moby Dick's deck; Luffy and Katakuri's combined use cracked the floor and shattered pillars in the Mirroworld; and Usopp's lie about his haki causing earthquakes was broadly deemed believable - but this is the first time we've seen it used directly for offence.
I think they way the powerup is portrayed muddies the water a lot with Luffy's last powerup - the haki projection and injection he learned from Hyogoro. We know Luffy picked that up because we saw him destroy the collars, blow up the tree before the raid and do substantial harm to Kaido with his regular attacks, but the dialogue here feels like the move only truly clicks when you add offensive CoC to the mix as well. Even though we know they're two different things, Oda hasn't made it distinct enough where CoA ends and CoC begins, or if Luffy's using just CoC instead of both at once, or any other way it might be, which makes the initial advanced armament powerup feel a little cheaper. And it feels like the highest level techniques are only for the one in a million with the special haki (plus training to be one of the "handful of the very strongest" on top of that). We've yet to see anyone without CoC do the clash-without-touching thing.
It's definitely always been a little bit of a thing that Luffy was born special (CoC, Voice of All Things, Will of the D, liniage of the Navy's hero and the Revolutionary), and that's not inherently a bad thing, but it has so rarely felt like those factors are so much of a leg up over any other pirate trying to get by on guts alone.
There's definitely more we have to learn about all of this, and a few quick remarks in the middle of combat aren't the best way to learn about a new skill, so I'm going to reserve my final judgement on it until we get some post-battle or SBS elaboration. We don't know how much of an edge CoC gives over reaching advanced CoA the hard way. We also don't know if there's a secret interaction between CoC and CoO as well, which would at least make things feel better thought out than a straight last-minute offensive boost. But for now, it's not sitting quite right with me.
And that's the chapter. The final panel is a great callback to a highlight from earlier in the arc and should definitely be remembered as the moment there was no longer any possible doubt about the raid succeeding and Kaido going down, at least from a narrative standpoint. But as climactic as all this feels, there's no way this is the final stage of the fight. Even though we've had the traditional small fakeout defeat for Luffy and a come from behind with a new technique. There's too much still happening down below to wrap up the main event. The pendulum has to swing back Kaido's way at least one more time. Which means there's probably a more substantial near-death moment for some more new skills (probably a new Gear form implementing the new haki) for Luffy at some point in the future, but probably after another status update from the characters fighting .
Yes that part was a big contentious in the spoiler thread too. The original sin that makes conqueror haki birth given only a chose few get, makes this power up a bit bitter. if it was a haki that is obtained thanks to your ambition and struggle toward the top, it would make everything more simple and acceptable. Even Zoro awaking it this late in the game would make more sense.
And i agree that this haki being just a better version of the armament haki is really not satisfying. Finally, it is shown to us the fighting application of this kind of haki. Honestly, it is a bit late and it should have been explained or hinted long ago.
Mihawk and Rayleigh were really bad teachers in the end :-)
I think that theory is actually spot on. When Luffy first tried to replicate how Rayleigh and Sentomaru used Haki Hyogoro demonstrates that same skill. However when Luffy destroys the collars Hyogoro thinks to himself "He just used–!!" and follows it up with "It is in the midst of danger that power truly blossoms!!!" and "The power you just exhibited is already beyond any application of Ryuo I can teach you." So he actually established that this type of Haki essentially gets Saiyan-like powerups, making it completely natural for Luffy to realise it right here and now.
Hyogoro also says this:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210411/9f2cf95275677e4db8d2ce429ba19784.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210411/a34b9ce303e7c0915a5fa40b5122b726.jpgWe know exactly one type of Haki application that gets sent outward, CoC blasts.
CoC has been outward/emission Haki all along and Oda has hidden the breadcrumbs in plain sight.
Luffy could have used a weaker version of it, the same level that he already used unconsciously to remove the collars and Yamato's handcuffs. And now that he realizes the trick behind it he can consciously apply it to its full extent, leading to the barrier effect.
So does this mean Hyogoro has Conqueror’s too?
I found this post by u/herrsebbe in Reddit that makes a lot of sense.
Essentially, it appears we were all mistaken about what old man Hyogoro taugh Luffy. Armament Haki allows you to damage things, but the "internal damage" part is only possible throught Conqueror Haki. That's why Hyou says that Luffy breaking the shackles is something beyond his own abilities. Full post here:
How did Luffy then break Yamato's handcuffs? He used what Hyo taught him consciously.
At the end of Wano, Law will look at his own crew and think how there are two Conqueror Haki users on the Straw Hat crew and think "How the hell do I beat that?".
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also the chapter is also available in Portuguese.
Maneiro.
Law will definitely have a story to tell. He’s in awe watching Zoro’s ashura and seeing Luffy kick Kaido butt without touching him. The guy is seeing wonders right in front of his own eyes.
How did Luffy then break Yamato's handcuffs? He used what Hyo taught him consciously.
I didn’t see any aura, so I’m not sure if Conqueror’s Haki was used here.
I didn’t see any aura, so I’m not sure if Conqueror’s Haki was used here.
https://i.ibb.co/W6p1jsK/59819-D7-A-1-D59-4-D8-D-B4-E5-09-E375-A83-E3-F.jpg
So if we assume the theory posted that CoC infusing is what causing internal damage, then these set of panels directly contradict that theory, though it was a very plausible one.
Luffy explained himself that he used advanced CoA even since he punched Kaido back then in chapter 1,000, but the attacks are still too shallow. Hence CoC coating, to increase his firepower even more to penetrate Kaido's CoC defense.
Zoro unconsciously imbues his Ashura with CoC so he really damaging Kaido. As far as we know Zoro couldn't use advanced CoA right?
As far as I understand…
Advanced CoA: increases attack range, internal damage
Advanced CoC: even more increases attack range, even more damage, black lightning effect
Luffy explained himself that he used advanced CoA even since he punched Kaido back then in chapter 1,000, but the attacks are still too shallow. Hence CoC coating, to increase his firepower even more to penetrate Kaido's CoC defense.
Zoro unconsciously imbues his Ashura with CoC so he really damaging Kaido. As far as we know Zoro couldn't use advanced CoA right?
As far as I understand…
Advanced CoA: increases attack range, internal damage
Advanced CoC: even more increases attack range, even more damage, black lightning effect
Yeah makes sense. Luffy was able to damage the tree and break the cuffs without using CoC. He also hurt Kaido making him bleed without using CoC. But kaido protected himself with CoC and CoA so the attacks were shallow. Adding CoC on top of the CoA makes the attacks more potent. This is the best explanation I am going ahead with for now.
Yeah makes sense. Luffy was able to damage the tree and break the cuffs without using CoC. He also hurt Kaido making him bleed without using CoC. But kaido protected himself with CoC and CoA so the attacks were shallow. Adding CoC on top of the CoA makes the attacks more potent. This is the best explanation I am going ahead with for now.
The anime showed it as a yellow-orange aura with a red layering. Makes me wonder if they’ll consistently show it like that when the anime gets around to showing Luffy fighting Kaido on the roof.
Yes that part was a big contentious in the spoiler thread too. The original sin that makes conqueror haki birth given only a chose few get, makes this power up a bit bitter. if it was a haki that is obtained thanks to your ambition and struggle toward the top, it would make everything more simple and acceptable. Even Zoro awaking it this late in the game would make more sense.
The point with CoC being put into a position to provide additional utility is that Oda was never gonna be able to make everyone happy. Someone will always be complaining.
If we assume that it is indeed a "chosen haki" (even though none of the people who referred to it as such had it themselves as far as I remember, the actual users framed it a bit differently, more along the lines you mentioned about it being ambition/strength of spirit in my opinion), is "I can do mental fodder control" worthy of being put in the "chosen" category when everyone at that level could manually take care of large fodder fields in very little time? Either it's mostly worthless or it's "gatekeeping", you'll find people who are adamant about stating how it's bad for one reason or another.
Besides, high-tier CoC has been shown to have a physical effect all the way back in chapter 434, so it having advanced applications was theorized ever since then.
!
And i agree that this haki being just a better version of the armament haki is really not satisfying. Finally, it is shown to us the fighting application of this kind of haki. Honestly, it is a bit late and it should have been explained or hinted long ago.
Mihawk and Rayleigh were really bad teachers in the end :-)
I don't agree with the notion that it's "just a better version". We don't know nearly enough about it yet to make such a claim. It could well be the case that it is different enough, one hypothesis I have is that advanced CoC doesn't make your punches "harder" but rather bypasses CoA defense to a degree or attacks the user's "spirit"/"life energy" directly in a sense. Most importantly, I don't remember there being any indication that CoC in whatever form would be capable of forcing a DF user into taking a hit with their "normal" body. So far we've only seen a glimpse of this technique and while certain assumptions are absolutely reasonable I don't think they are more than that at this stage.
As for Rayleigh and Mihawk being bad teachers: Big disagree. First of all, we have no indication that Mihawk even has CoC, much less had any indication that Zoro has it. As for Rayleigh, he has explicitly stated that CoC can not be trained specifically but rather has to be strengthened over time with personal growth. And to finish it off, neither Rayleigh nor Mihawk have shown any capability of using this new application of CoC. The only possible jab at Rayleigh is not teaching Luffy internal destruction with CoA, but then again… he just started his haki training. That was probably a bit too advanced for someone just getting the basics out of the way.
Ok. Then the question arises:
Why does Garp not have CoC then?
Chosen haki in itself is fine. It's just that it comes on the tail end of a slippery slope. Guy sets out to be free, stumbles assbackwards in to plot point about saving the world, which is fine if it happens as a by-product of Luffy living his life. But then a bunch of invisible hands of fate stuff gets stacked on. Okay he's from a lost famous clan that people fear, thats fine it is shounen after all. Oh so his hat that we thought was a symbol of his and Shanks promise is actually a prophecy road mark and him betting on Luffy is potentially about a prophecy. Even more oh the OP is actually only fully useable by a chosen saviour who is born at a fated time under very specific requirements. And to beat the people blocking OP you need to have a haki ability that only those who were born to rule can have. It just gets a little bit much at times, but it is what it is and at this point you can only roll with the fact that Luffy is just surfing a wave of fate to end station. I would have prefered the inherited will thing to be a little less literal but c'est la vie
Weird way to ignore one of the biggest themes in the series and pretend that destiny has never been a part of it but ok, i guess.
Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC
Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it…? Things like this makes zero sense
人事を尽くして天命を待つ
Yes that part was a big contentious in the spoiler thread too. The original sin that makes conqueror haki birth given only a chose few get, makes this power up a bit bitter. if it was a haki that is obtained thanks to your ambition and struggle toward the top, it would make everything more simple and acceptable. Even Zoro awaking it this late in the game would make more sense.
And i agree that this haki being just a better version of the armament haki is really not satisfying. Finally, it is shown to us the fighting application of this kind of haki. Honestly, it is a bit late and it should have been explained or hinted long ago.
Mihawk and Rayleigh were really bad teachers in the end :-)
I choose to headcanon the "one in a million" thing to "one in a million people will ever aim high enough with enough conviction to awaken it, even though technically everyone has the potential," which makes it go down a whole lot easier, even if there's not really a canon basis for that. (I'd love for a native Japanese reader to confirm if it's a viable interpretation of the original explanation though).
Greg was saying on Twitter that he'd expected CoC to have this kind of application for a while, apparently based mostly on the sound effects used for previous CoC clashes. I'm really not seeing it though, I'd agree that it needed more foreshadowing.
Maybe Ray and Mihawk didn't want their students getting distracted trying to do something so far above their level at the time. I don't know, I'm trying to give Oda the benefit of the doubt here because he so rarely lets me down.
Ray said he wanted to teqch Luffy only the basics and that Luffy would need to do the rest himself (why Ray left the island before 2y mark). Tho that does clash somewhat with him telling Luffy of future sight. Might be that just happened to come up during one of their regular conversations whereas this didnt. As for Mihawk, well I guess its possible both of them had an implicit understanding that they wouldnt reveal all their tricks to each other or similary to Ray and Luffy they focused more on good foundation to improve later than specific applications that one may or may not learn.
Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC
Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it…? Things like this makes zero sense
I guess even the Pirate King and his crew has limits as to what they do and don’t know, because Luffy was talking about Conqueror’s coating as if he was surprised and never heard about it before he figured it out for himself. Either he didn’t know the full implications, or Rayleigh purposefully withheld it so as to keep it at the basics, though even that starts seeming sketchy.
The point with CoC being put into a position to provide additional utility is that Oda was never gonna be able to make everyone happy. Someone will always be complaining.
If we assume that it is indeed a "chosen haki" (even though none of the people who referred to it as such had it themselves as far as I remember, the actual users framed it a bit differently, more along the lines you mentioned about it being ambition/strength of spirit in my opinion), is "I can do mental fodder control" worthy of being put in the "chosen" category when everyone at that level could manually take care of large fodder fields in very little time? Either it's mostly worthless or it's "gatekeeping", you'll find people who are adamant about stating how it's bad for one reason or another.
Besides, high-tier CoC has been shown to have a physical effect all the way back in chapter 434, so it having advanced applications was theorized ever since then.
Well you have decided to ignore all those times when a character says that it is a "chosen haki" because it "does not prove anything" to make your headcannon instead. It will be hard to discuss based on that. Maybe one day Oda will retcon how Conqueror haki is obtained. Until then, I will believe what he has made his characters said.
I don't agree with the notion that it's "just a better version". We don't know nearly enough about it yet to make such a claim. It could well be the case that it is different enough, one hypothesis I have is that advanced CoC doesn't make your punches "harder" but rather bypasses CoA defense to a degree or attacks the user's "spirit"/"life energy" directly in a sense. Most importantly, I don't remember there being any indication that CoC in whatever form would be capable of forcing a DF user into taking a hit with their "normal" body. So far we've only seen a glimpse of this technique and while certain assumptions are absolutely reasonable I don't think they are more than that at this stage.
Yes it is a bit early but I'm not sure we will have more explanation anytime soon. So it will always be speculation based on the vague hints Oda provides when it comes to haki
As for Rayleigh and Mihawk being bad teachers: Big disagree. First of all, we have no indication that Mihawk even has CoC, much less had any indication that Zoro has it. As for Rayleigh, he has explicitly stated that CoC can not be trained specifically but rather has to be strengthened over time with personal growth. And to finish it off, neither Rayleigh nor Mihawk have shown any capability of using this new application of CoC. The only possible jab at Rayleigh is not teaching Luffy internal destruction with CoA, but then again… he just started his haki training. That was probably a bit too advanced for someone just getting the basics out of the way.
The destructive aspect of haki was the first thing Rayleigh showed to Luffy (Luffy said it himself in chapter 937). One could imagine that he teaches it but apparently not, go figure.
Ryleigh said that it can't get stronger directly. The situation has multiple elements. Luffy wants to save his friends in an urgent matter and Kaido (a CoC user) is beating him up. From this, I get that Rayleigh could have fought Luffy over and over again, but it would be a waste of time.
Why? There is no real urgency to conjure up. Zoro is down, Law just got washed, Scabbards and Wano are at risk, etc. You can't produce that for training purposes unless you're Oda. The first time we get a glimpse of CoC, Shanks is protecting Luffy.
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Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC
Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it…? Things like this makes zero sense
Who knows, maybe it's something everyone needs to discover for themselves. You know, since it's closely tied to personality and emotions, maybe knowing about it and expecting it would just hamper the development.
Anyway, CoC having more applications has been expected. I know I never forgot about Shanks' CoC causing cracks on Moby Dick.
And honestly, I'm not that bothered by Luffy just getting up after being clubbed down for the second time. After all, his protection was a little stronger this time, having trained his Haki more. Could have been done without blank eyes, though.
Ace had Conqueror's haki when he was 10, so I don't know how that clashed with it being innate or not.
But let's not forget that Haki literally means 'ambition'. And the whole point of Conqueror's haki is having the disposition to stand above all others.
So maybe it's not that some people are born with CoC and that's why the reach to the top, but only one in a million has the strength of spirit and willpower to reach to the top and that's why they have CoC. But then again, wouldn't that mean said ambition is innate, which basically means the same thing?
For fun, let's look at the black lightning effect. It was first connected to CoC haki back in Dressrosa, with that association being strongly reinforced this week. But there's a few interesting inconsistencies s. Firstly, it doesn't show up before the timeskip, even when it would make sense for it to.
Armament being invisible before our POV characters learn about it I get, but the reactions of the colosseum guests suggests that the lightning is visible even to a layperson, so I think this is one aspect of haki that just wasn't cemented until at least after the timeskip.
But even as recently as Onigashima, Oda's also used the effect for characters fairly unlikely to have the haki. Individuals and clashes that produced black lightning effects have inlcuded Elizabello, Sabo and Burgess, Sai and Lao G, Issho, Sanji and Oven, Franky and Suke, Sanji and PageOne, Yamato and Ulti; and Usopp and Ulti.
There was even some presumably natural black lightning in the stormclouds in the background of the Kaido fight.
Most of these get another colour's highlight next to the black in the digital colour manga, usually red or purple but there's also been pink, blue and just leaving it back and white. I don't think there's any real significance in how the colour choices.
I also think the first ever example of the lightning effect might be when Luffy hits Caesar here…
But some wires got crossed making the colour version and they mistook it for long streams of blood.
But it could probably go either way in the end.
And even more interestingly, for part of the Luffy/Chinjao clash that introduced the idea of lightning as a CoC signifier, it's just drawn as regular, outlines only lightning, which has the potential to make things even more complicated if we wanted to look for electric effects on non-electric attacks as a haki signpost.
The final interesting note about Oda's use of lightning effects and their relationship with haki is the バリバリ sound effects in the Luffy/Chinjao panel. It doesn't appear every time there's CoC users and/or lightning effects, but they're there when Luffy clashes with Doflmingo, when he and Katakuri throw their CoC at each other and finally in the panel of the lightning trailing off his fist in this chapter, i.e. the big moments specifically stated to be clashes of CoC haki.
But in the same way the lightning isn't exclusively a haki effect, you can also get バリバリ and similar sounds out of crackling electricity, and it's definitely been used in that capacity. One really ambiguous moment would be Luffy and Sanji attacking Big Mom together as she throws Zeus at them. You have two CoC users clashing, but also a source of regular electricity blazing away (and no black lightning). Anyone's guess what kinds of haki is in play there.
I think the bottom line here, if there is any, is that there's no one consistent set of effects for any kind of haki and Oda just does what feels right to him at the time. I think it would have been cool if looking back over past uses of black lightning and familiar sound effects could have hinted at possible conquerors-to-be, but it's all too wildly inconsistent to get any crack theories off the ground.
According to Greg, there's a sound effect cue for a Conqueror-clad attack. バリッ (Bzzt).
@All:
According to Greg, there's a sound effect cue for a Conqueror-clad attack. バリッ (Bzzt).
I did see that, and wrote about it toward the end of my post. I don't see how it's materially different from the bzzt-type effects written with the same characters for things like the Vinsmokes' electric attacks, Zeus's thunderbolts, Carrot's electro and Nami's lightning.
But I'm open to (and would welcome) being corrected on that point because I'm just visually matching symbols, not really reading them in the traditional sense. It wouldn't shock me there's some nuance I'm missing, or a distinction in the haki version easily overlooked by the untrained eye.
As far as memory serves, Haki as a concept (If you exclude Mantra from Skypea) came around only at Amazon Lily.
That's why before that, every demonstration of Haki was more a hint of what would appear in the future of the series, hence why the absent of black lightning and turning skin and blades dark.
That's just my opinion tho.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Ok. Then the question arises:
Why does Garp not have CoC then?
Who said he doesn't have it?
Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC
Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it…? Things like this makes zero sense
He doesn’t know or
it’s something Oda just invented. Sometime back Oda did say he doesn’t know how to make Luffy defeat Kaido. He doesn’t want it to be about Luffy punching harder. So, I guess Oda just invented this to make Kaido fall sensible.
IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU….
I'm thinking since Big Mom is doing something mysterious and Kaido might have an awakened form or something up his sleeve, that we might still get an 'alright, playtime is over' moment with the both of them. That's why Oda is getting Zoro out of there, because he doesn't want to have him lose.
