@puffing-cinema all except the Kurozumi family
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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The charcoal children never stood a chance in Wano society. No wonder poor O'Charcoal went into the genocide line of work, with a name like that not a lot of doors were open in the moon mens world
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@The-Light-of-Shandora said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I do wonder, does the world government or the 5 Elders know that people inside Wano are the stone smiths of the Poneglyphs and therefore are able to read and write the ancient language? If they know, why havenât they done something against Wano in the past 800 years?
On that note, where did the scholars of Ohara learn the ancient language? I think itâs likely that they went to Wano, or they simply deciphered it.
Anyways it would be neat to tie together the scholars of Ohara and the Kozuki clan together. So whoâs Robins dad? Some guy from Wano, or another scholar of Ohara?Edit: from OP wiki, âwhile Robin's father was never revealed, Olvia stated that she will honor her husband's dream, she then left to study the poneglyphs.â
The WG is fully aware that Wano was allied with the Ancient Kingdom, and it's not impossible that the WG knows that wanoese wrote the Poneglyph although we can't know for sure. Wano and the WG were enemies after the Void Century. Wano raised the outer walls to protect itself from the WG... but we know that Wano was still being attacked for centuries, until Ryuma put an end to it becoming a hero who put fear into Wano's enemies' hearts. So Wano was finally peaceful.
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@theackwardstation the same way leaving Haki as a capital H noun, instead of translating it to spirit, always leaves a disconnect and takes out the subtlety it had before there was an official name for it.
Particularly Blackbeard's times using it.
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@Robby I loved when people translated it as "Ambition".
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@Deicide said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Robby I loved when people translated it as "Ambition".
Me too. I always prefered an approach like in Star Wars where you can have something called The Force which is not equal to force. True we now know that using the Force is something completely different from using force. But hearing it for the first time surely must have raised some eyebrows before Obi-Wan started to explain the concept.
I don't see One Piece to be that much different on that matter. Only that Rayleighs exposition dump came years later, which makes sense considering that we're talking about a long running weekly manga series that is not restricted to having to explain everything within the confines of one movie.
I still call it Ambition or Presence rather than Haki. I just switch over to Haki when I see it might cause confusion in a conversation with somebody who got into the series, when the term Haki already was generally accepted translation.
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I also prefer Ambition. It fits the themes of One Piece much better. It comes across like people literally can apply their strong will to become stronger, whereas Haki makes it sound like a random magic power that some people just have and others don't. Controversies like Luffy being born with great Haki become much less troublesome if you phrase it as "being born with great ambition" instead. Like, that's something you would maybe even say in the real world about people who always reached for the stars and had the willpower to make their dreams come true.
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@Riddler I agree wholeheartedly. One of the things that rubbed me the wrong way the most back then, when the debate was running whether to translate it or not was the argument, that it feels weird and unnatural to use a common noun as a name for a superpower. The aformentioned Star Wars example shows what utter nonesense that claim is.
Heck, if a capital A, P or S is not enough then call it The Ambition, The Presence or The Spirit if it hits closer to your comfort zone. But Haki is just as bad as Nakama IMO.
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Abstract spirit magic isn't great, but akward translation or not i'd rather think of it that way than a newborns popping out the womb pre-installed with the greatest ambition upgrade.
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Keeping it as Haki seemed like a very transparent way to get DBZ/Naruto/Bleach powerscalers and battledomers interested in the series.
And it didn't even work.
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I've come to like Haki being what it is. Even if it's not the original reading experience, the foreign name works for that spiritual/martial art vibe it has going. It's become one of those things too ingrained in every discussion to see any other way. Kinda similarly, it would probably be a better handling of Luffy's (original) devil fruit to call it "rubber rubber" or "stretch stretch" but the gum gum/gomu gomu name has become too iconic to move away from. I dunno, maybe I'd just have to look at a script or an edited page with the new terms to get a feel for it first.
A while marketability isn't really a thing for speculative, personally-tailored retranslations, you just know there's a contingent of the fanbase that would latch onto a change to Haki like they did with Zolo and use it as an excuse to never touch your version, no matter how much else it got right.
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I donât mind Haki being left untranslated. But when Kaido said that Haki is above all, I couldnât help but think a deeper meaning was lost due to that.
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@access-timeco said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
But when Kaido said that Haki is above all, I couldnât help but think a deeper meaning was lost due to that.
This. Compare with the very early series, all the way back to when Zeff commented that Krieg never stood a chance against Luffy: because it wasn't weapons but guts that mattered in a fight.
Kaido's haki comment is essentially this a thousand chapters later, except it's now wrapped in this abstract concept we mostly see as a different brand of magic these days. Which makes it easy to forget that he should really be saying "if you have an unbreakable will/spirit/ambition, nothing on this earth can stop you". -
I'm in #TeamAmbition
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I'll also take my I am Spartacus stance here.
I like using the japanese terms for haki when talking about the attacks and techniques but I prefer to think of it as Ambition when talking about it's influence on the big picture.My headcannon is that Garp's Fist of Love and Nami's beatings are a type of haki/ambition.
Oda himself answered a fan stating that Fist of Love wasn't haki, it was something else, and that Nami can "hurt" Luffy because she's beating his spirit. They're not trying to hurt Luffy, they just want to push him back and stop his non-sense in it's tracks. They have a strong ambition for Luffy to stop being a dumbass so they bypass his phisical defenses and he understands that he's being scolded. -
As far as I know ki and chakra are also spiritual concepts used as power sytem in popular shonen. Its not a new thing. Its just that leaving it untranslated allow an easier time for the user of when they are talking about the magic system mechanism and when they are talking about the thing everyone has.
And that distinction is imore important in the one piece world because you can have ambition and conviction without having the magic power called ambition so confusion is more likely. Regular monarchs being the easier example I can think of.
But I would interested in a version where Haki was translated rather then left as his when talking about the magic power. It would definitely make sentence like Kaido yelling how Haki is the ultimate power come off a lot better. I think it would make for a pretty nice read.
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@desa said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
And that distinction is imore important in the one piece world because you can have ambition and conviction without having the magic power called ambition so confusion is more likely. Regular monarchs being the easier example I can think of.
Star Wars proves this stance wrong. Nobody confuses The Force with actual brute force. Save for some exceptions the audience is not that stupid.
As far as Chakra and Ki are concerned, Chakra is a concept from tantric Hinduism so it's quite old and found it's way into other languages in a time where foreign concepts that seem alien are left untranslated. It pretty much became one of those words that exist in many languages without many people actually knowing what the term itself means.
Ki on the other hand I don't know much about outside of the manga. In which case it's just like Haki and should be translated if it has any actual meaning. Just because one Ki is left untranslated it doesn't mean Haki needs to be treated the same. "They did it too" is overall never a good justification when doing something wrong.
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I think Ki is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi so it's a similar situation to Chakra.
On the official side, I've noticed it's been a trend with fictional power and titles, which is too bad because I really enjoy seeing the creative ways a professional goes about things that a fansubber would usually decide to not translate. Back in the days when Mato shared some experiences during the Funimation transition, they had to follow a "master list" from Toei on what things had to be called no matter what so there was that side of things for a while too...
On the non-OP side, I personally wished we could've gotten Ripple over Hamon (Jojo) and Pillar over Hashira (Demon Slayer). We're all used to Hokage nowadays too but I think it still would've been cool if they went with Fire Shadow since it'd mean a lot more to the average viewer. I don't have Netflix to check but I'm hoping that the Shaman King subs didn't leave their power as Furyoku. I think I've just gotten tired of having to explain what all these terms mean to people aren't familiar with this stuff.
I realized I was mostly thinking about anime subtitles, but I get the impression manga/anime are not in sync with each other when it comes to these things. Spy x Family comes to mind...
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Another untranslated name we miss out on is Kuma being Bear. Lots and lots of bear jokes that we just don't get.
I know you never translate proper names, but that's one of the handful of cases where I think it would have been helpful... same as Catviper and Dogstorm, where you need the translation to get the pun, and where their names are trying to convey a specific thing.
Like calling Nami "Wave" or Kuro "Black" wouldn't work at all, but there's a small handful of cases...
I have no idea what you could possibly do with Orochi's name to make the charcoal pun work beyond just squeezing that explanation into the text... that's one that's meant for the original audience.
I'm reminded of a Ranma pun where Genma, in panda form, gets some bread, and in Japanese saying "it's bread" comes out as "Panda". So Panda Panda. The best the dub could do with it was "It's bread, and you're the bread winner!" which... is an attempt and what can you do when its a specific pun like that? But some cultural things just get lost in translation.
Personally the biggest loss in One Piece for me is losing the suffixes... so we lose a lot of the subtle Sanji and Nami interplay... and we lose the moment when Jinbei switches from Luffy-kun to Luffy-san. Going from seeing him as a kid to respect, to someone to respect. And that's such an important but subtle character moment.
@Monquito Pretty sure the monkey guys from Jaya have some zoan in them.
Unconfirmed obviously but it makes a lot of sense.
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As someone who's read a bit of Asterix, widely considered one of the best English translations, I should put out that translating or even changing names is not a bad thing if done well. And sometimes, it's even better. Changing the tone deaf bard from Assurancetourix (which is a play on a wide ranging insurance) into Cacofonix was brilliant and much funnier than the original.
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I've never understood why people get so up in arms about translating character names. Yes, it would be incredibly disrespectful and inappropriate to do for a real person or historical figure, but fictional characters aren't people, they aren't due the same kind of respect. If changing the name makes the story work better in its new language, it's dumb not to at least consider it.
As someone who grew up with the likes of Asterix and Tintin, I'd be genuinely interested to see more manga/anime with the kind of translation treatment those old European comics got.
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I'm torn on translating character names. It works in some settings but it's very strange in others.
Usually, first names should be kept and surnames may or may not be translated depending on the vibe. But there are times even first names are better when translated.
In the case of One Piece, character names are so varied, and draw from so many cultures, that I feel there should be no translation.
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A series as multicultural as One Piece, a translator with the right mindset could do some interesting things if they had the freedom to lean into its influences. Take the way characters from Wano speak - in Japanese they're distinguished by an antiquated mode of speech, which in the current English version is played up with these old English type additions like 'verily' which is both boring and a bad fit for the island's atmosphere. Imagine a version where the cast of Wano were allowed to use honorifics and Japanese loanwords in a way characters from elsewhere weren't doing. Most obvious way possible to make their dialogue stand out, especially with Viz not including those things normally, and they made them all medieval instead.
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Honestly just never been personally a fan of names being translated it generally tends to bother and annoy me for any language. There is some rare cases where I think it's a good thing to adjust names. Fore example in Pokemon I think most of the time it works really well + it's meant to be memorable to native children.
But truly stuff like Warcraft has just become unplayable for me in my mother language because the name translations make all the names just clunkier and then there is stuff like Xenoblade with terrible inconsistencies in which names do get changed and which ones doesn't or Fire Emblem where I honestly think the choices are just generally stupid.
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@Cinder said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I think Ki is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi so it's a similar situation to Chakra.
On the official side, I've noticed it's been a trend with fictional power and titles, which is too bad because I really enjoy seeing the creative ways a professional goes about things that a fansubber would usually decide to not translate. Back in the days when Mato shared some experiences during the Funimation transition, they had to follow a "master list" from Toei on what things had to be called no matter what so there was that side of things for a while too...
On the non-OP side, I personally wished we could've gotten Ripple over Hamon (Jojo) and Pillar over Hashira (Demon Slayer). We're all used to Hokage nowadays too but I think it still would've been cool if they went with Fire Shadow since it'd mean a lot more to the average viewer. I don't have Netflix to check but I'm hoping that the Shaman King subs didn't leave their power as Furyoku. I think I've just gotten tired of having to explain what all these terms mean to people aren't familiar with this stuff.
I realized I was mostly thinking about anime subtitles, but I get the impression manga/anime are not in sync with each other when it comes to these things. Spy x Family comes to mind...
I agree on both. Ripple works much better especially if you consider how the concept was even explained to work. And Pillar also works well because those guys are literally are pillars of hope in the fight against demons.
@Robby said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Another untranslated name we miss out on is Kuma being Bear. Lots and lots of bear jokes that we just don't get.
I know you never translate proper names, but that's one of the handful of cases where I think it would have been helpful... same as Catviper and Dogstorm, where you need the translation to get the pun, and where their names are trying to convey a specific thing.
Like calling Nami "Wave" or Kuro "Black" wouldn't work at all, but there's a small handful of cases...
As far as I'm concerned, I have two reasons why I am completely against the idea of translating names. The first one is actually tied to the namings in One Piece and the other way is a lot more personal (meaning no objectivity at all), which I will elaborate on below.
For the first reason, I'd like to stick with Bartholomew Kuma because there's plenty of cases like him. His name is part Japanese (Kuma) and part English (Bartholomew). As example I would like to reveal the name by which he goes in the German version: BartholomÀus BÀr. That's not a wrong translation by the way. Kuma/Bear is BÀr in German. And Bartholomew is BartholomÀus in German, just as it is Bartolomé in Spanish, or Bartolomeo in Italian to just name a few prominent ones.
The translation is absolutely not wrong. But it erases one key aspect in Oda's namings, names that consist of various languages. Ok, Kuma is not a foreign term for the Japanese reader but Bartholomew is. For English speakers the roles are reversed. And if you translate everything than this aspect, which I find adds so much flavour to the overall OP world just get's lost. Oda wanted the animal part for Kuma to be a Japanese term. Just as he wanted an English term for Crododile. He easily could have called him Sir Wani or heck, even Wani-sama if he wanted. But Oda chose English for Croc and Japanese for Kuma.
Another example for this would be Robin's attacks for example "Ocho Fleur" that are Spanish (Ocho) and French (Fleur). You could translate it to 'Eight Flowers' but you just eliminate what Oda wanted to do. He intentionally went for two languages that are not Japanese (and neither are they English) and having it as 'Eight Flowers' just completely goes the authors intention in the namings and is not something a translator should do.
I agree with you Robby, that some puns simply get lost. That's one of the downsides. But at the opposite ruins the unique flair of the series.
As far as nicknames such as Cat Burglar, Strawhat, Blackbeard and what not are concerned. Those on the other hand should be translated because they are descriptive of a characters traits respectively how other people see them as. Nami is not called a cat burglar because of her name but because that's literally what she is. Luffy is called Strawhat because that's what he's wearing (wonder why Roger and Shanks were never referred to as such though). And I still think that even the Admirals should actually be named Red Dog, Yellow Monkey, Blue Pheasant, Purple Tiger and Green Bull because these are clearly not there names. Heck, with the latter there's even people who say Green Bull because a) they misspell Ryokugyu and b) it is a term that doesn't roll easy of the toungue.
About Catviper and Dogstorm. I have to admit that I'm actually unfamiliar with those being their actual names or nicknames given to them. Could anybody confirm either way please?
Anyways before I leave, I'd like also to give the more personal reason why I don't like translating names. Since it's really not One Piece related I'm gonna but it in spoilers for anybody who's interested.
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Thanks for the perspective Ivotas, it's good to hear from someone who's actually had to deal with their name being translated. I don't think I've changed my mind on fictional characters, as mechanical parts of narrative that need to be understood in certain ways for the story to work, not being due the same respect as real people, but I can see how personal and frustrating it must feel to see us all talking about name changes like it's something we'd casually approve of.
There does need to be balance as well. I think prioritising the original names and the author's romanisations is ideal as long as its reasonable to work with them. One Piece has a few inconsistent romanisations that you have to pick one of (Alabasta/Arabasta), and some that are just insane (Levely) that force a translator to make their own decision, but anything else needs to be justified. Is the bear shirt joke from Dressrosa worth breaking from the author's word to maintain, especially for such a prominent character? Do you show more flexibility for bit parts like Commodore Yarisugi, whose whole deal is that his name basically means 'overzealous' and he acts overzealously, and has like a page of screentime that exists purely to make that joke? Does the desire to keep 'dogstorm' and 'catviper' as things the audience can understand compete with their and their nation's in-universe ties to Wano providing justification for Japanese names?
And it's also worth remembering that this whole discussion takes place entirely in the context of One Piece, which is uniquely multicultural. This discussion basically wouldn't exist for a series set completely in Tokyo with a cast of Japanese people, and could change in any number of ways based on the settings and time periods of different works.
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@Captain-M said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Thanks for the perspective Ivotas, it's good to hear from someone who's actually had to deal with their name being translated. I don't think I've changed my mind on fictional characters, as mechanical parts of narrative that need to be understood in certain ways for the story to work, not being due the same respect as real people, but I can see how personal and frustrating it must feel to see us all talking about name changes like it's something we'd casually approve of.
There does need to be balance as well. I think prioritising the original names and the author's romanisations is ideal as long as its reasonable to work with them. One Piece has a few inconsistent romanisations that you have to pick one of (Alabasta/Arabasta), and some that are just insane (Levely) that force a translator to make their own decision, but anything else needs to be justified. Is the bear shirt joke from Dressrosa worth breaking from the author's word to maintain, especially for such a prominent character? Do you show more flexibility for bit parts like Commodore Yarisugi, whose whole deal is that his name basically means 'overzealous' and he acts overzealously, and has like a page of screentime that exists purely to make that joke? Does the desire to keep 'dogstorm' and 'catviper' as things the audience can understand compete with their and their nation's in-universe ties to Wano providing justification for Japanese names?
And it's also worth remembering that this whole discussion takes place entirely in the context of One Piece, which is uniquely multicultural. This discussion basically wouldn't exist for a series set completely in Tokyo with a cast of Japanese people, and could change in any number of ways based on the settings and time periods of different works.
Thanks for showing understanding to that kinda personal perspective.
I also agree that there needs to be a balance because some situations just force a translators hand. But those are the minor cases. Inconsistant romanizations are not the same issue as having a half Spanish half French name in a Japanese comic be complete English in the English translation. The flavour completely gets taken out, which an inconsistant romanization is a mistake the original author themselves did and now the translators are left to deal with it.
As a matter of fact, translating a name into a different language and having to decide on a proper ramanization are two completely different pair of shoes. No matter if the English name (Oars/Odz/Oz) or the Japanese name (Jinbe/Jinbei/Jinbeh) to name two examples, this is a discussion about which spelling must accurately makes the reader understand the proper pronounciation. It's not the same thing as leaving something untranslated or not.
I think that in such a situation translators should absolutely be given freedom. One might not agree with their decision but if there's a good reason it has to be accepted. Personally on the Alabasta/Arabasta matter I go with Arabasta because it is by far the more often used romanization in while Alabasta was only the first. Also I feel Arabasta contains more references than Alabasta, which pretty much can only be connected to the mineral alabaster. Arabasta on the other hand sounds like a Japanese person would pronounce 'alabaster' but it also makes people think of Arab cultures which is a nice nod considering that we're talking about a desert country and Arab cultures while not exclusively being desert cultures definitely have a huge connection with it. So from a personal take I find it somewhat more appealing as it just carries more in it.
Things like Yarisugi on the other hand can be dealt with in a simple translators note on the page. It's a minor joke and doesn't require a name change IMO. Things like editors notes have been a element ever since comics existed so I don't the argument when people say that a translators note is ruining the flow of a chapter (not your words but I've seen that argument being brought up every now and then).
On the matter of this discussion existing only within the One Piece bubble I would have to disagree however. The French version of City Hunter is pretty much being ridiculed because they wanted to change the Japanese names to something more francophonic. So for the protagonist Ryo Saeba they went with Nicky Larson which isn't even that much of a French name to begin with.
Also from what I've just found out recently because I've never read the official manga, Detective Conan also has it's fair share of English names which is utterly ridiculous for Japanese people, living in Japan and solving cases not rarely connected to Japanese cultural and religous beliefs, respectively tied to aspects of everyday life in Japan. It's definitely not just One Piece. It's only that within the last 20 years internet has made manga and anime more accessible to the world which changed the audiences outlook and demands on the source material. We are not left at the mercy of horrible translators, that have zero understanding of the source material anymore. All things considered, no matter how much we complain and critisize things here (or in other forums), we have to be thankful for how much better we have it in terms of access and translations for these forms of media these days.^^
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Yeah, like I said, 99.9% of the time you don't translate names because... they are names and that makes no sense and the series would be nuts if our heroes were names Wave and Liarbu and Three O'Clock.
Especially in a series that takes so many different languages.
But there's a tiny, tiny handful of examples where maybe it should be the exception to the rule when the meaning is completely lost to the foreign audience and references are constantly made to the name's innate meaning.
Not that anyone knew there were going to be a bunch of bear puns about Kuma when he first appeared, but...
Orochi is the new example, who knew that it being Charcoal was going to be the pun capper to the entire arc? But what the hell do you even make that name into to make it work?
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
About Catviper and Dogstorm. I have to admit that I'm actually unfamiliar with those being their actual names or nicknames given to them. Could anybody confirm either way please?
In Japanese they're Inurashi and Nekomamushi.
If I'm not mistaken, Stephen specifically asked the Japanese editor on the approach to take with them.
Same approach with Whitebeard and Blackbeard. We don't call them Shirohige and Kurohige because their names are specific descriptors rather than actual names.
We lost out on other Zou puns though like Wanda being Bark because there was no sensible way to do that, so that's just a lost in translation subtlety.
(We also miss out on the D being an English D in the middle of japanese with Luffy, Teach, Law, etc.)
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@Ivotas All fair points, and it's definitely worth remembering that this kind of thing is super subjective from the outset. Everyone's going to have their own view on the right amount of localisation and adaptation. And we're pretty privileged to have translations that stick so close to the Japanese and so many people in the community providing commentary on those translations so that even without reading the original we're able to have such a strong impression of what it was trying to say and form our own opinions on how to restate those ideas in a way that feels natural to our own frame of reference.
An example of that subjectivity: I personally hate when editor notes are used like in your bit on Yarisugi. I feel a little cheated just seeing "this was funny in Japanese, we promise." I don't want to be told it was funny, I want it to be funny. That's why I'm reading a manga and not a wiki summary, you know? Obviously not every joke is going to translate, but I'll accept some wriggle room to get as many of them across the line as possible.
Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that these kinds of discussions could only be had about One Piece, just that the things I'm saying in this thread are specific to One Piece rather than being broadly about all translations. I'd be saying different things about honourifics, loanwords and names if you asked me the right way to handle a series set totally in Japan, which would be different from one with a historical European setting, which would be different from all kinds of fantasy universes with their own influences to play off of. And that's only from Japanese to English; languages and cultures that are already closer together and might already share practices or loanwords would have their own considerations. What works here might not work there, so each series or story becomes its own discussion.
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@Captain-M said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I've never understood why people get so up in arms about translating character names. Yes, it would be incredibly disrespectful and inappropriate to do for a real person or historical figure, but fictional characters aren't people, they aren't due the same kind of respect. If changing the name makes the story work better in its new language, it's dumb not to at least consider it.
Historical names are changed a lot. Most of the first names are localized. I don't think anybody uses the latin names for the historical roman figures.
Actually, this makes me think I wonder how Prince William will be named if he ever becomes king as all the previous Williams were translated with the French Guillaume first name.In fiction, translation is used a lot. Asterix is an obvious example but since 99% of the names are French puns, it is obvious they have to be localized. But no French will understand you if you speak of Scrooge McDuck or his big nephews which I don't even know the original names.
I also have repeated it a lot, but half of Harry Potter names have been changed in the French version. Darth Vader is known as Dark Vador in our country, etc. -
I'm still 50/50 on how the Swedish translation handled things. They took the route of translating almost all names (not all of them, the line between what should and shouldn't be translated seems to have been up to the translator's whims). On one hand it feels unnecessary, but I gotta admit it grew on me. Some names were so stupid they wound up charming, which fit the vibe of One Piece very well.
Bartholomew Kuma becoming Bartholomew Björn was fantastic though and I'd be mad at any translator for not going for that one, since Björn is a legitimate name here.
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@Robby As far as the Orochi example is concerned, I actually prefer how the scanslations handled it by saying something along the lines "Kurozumi means charcoal" which was not in the official version. Yes, I know that it adds a sentence that didn't exist in the original version because Japanese speakers don't need the explenation. But I think that not just with manga but with any translation of a story a statement like "it means XYZ" has become so normalized, that it is ok to be taken as part of the course. Yes it wasn't there in the original, yes, some puns are in the translations. But then again that's the entire point of an original version. At some point one has to accept that not everything can be translated. I don't necessarily agree with everything Stephen does in the official translations. Some things I also just found wrong when I read them. But all that aside, the dude is still doing an amazing job at actually trying to localize so many things into English it isn't even funny. I guess many people forget that.
On the topic of Kurohige and Shirohige. As I said, before with Mugiwara, Neko dorobou, those are nicknames and are a different thing from an actual name. Of course you have names that varied versions like Johnny being a nickname from John (sorry for bringing a real world example, but I really don't remember any OP names of this sort). If there's something like this in OP it doesn't have to be translated. But then you have names that are a discription of a characters appearance or visual traits. Not just in One Piece but in the real world too. Heck, to not look any further, I'll bring myself as example because one of my many nicknames was given to me in three different languages, without people actually realizing that I was called like this in other languages too. So Kurohige in Japanese and Blackbeard in English makes perfect sense.
But to get back again on the cat and the dog. I know they are Nekomamushi and Inuarashi. I prefer to refer to them by those names. I was asking if those were nicknames like Akainu for Sakazuki or if they are actually their real names. Because the terms really stand out to any other minks name.
@Captain-M Lol, there's not much I can argue with if that's how you genuily feel about translators and editors notes. I guess it's not something that bothers me that much but I totally get it if you feel like that about it.^^
Also thanks for explaining what you meant only One Piece. Guess I read you wrong. Apologies mate.
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The French naming him Nicky Larson is amazingly interesting to me. With a minor tweak to Nicke Larsson it would've been a great Swedish name for the character. Oh if only shitty huntah could've been translated into Swedish. Also Jimmy Kudo 4 lyfe, that other Shin name never. Case closed dub forever.
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@Ivotas
I've only read the official translation, but they mention the page before that "And just like the black coal of his family name, the final head of Kurozumi Orochi burned to a crisp." Of course it doesn't tell you that Kurozumi means charcoal, but it can't be more obvious than this.
When I read it the first time, I had some issues with it. But after reading it a second time. I have no more issues with it, though I still haven't warmed up to it, as it sounds kinda wrong to me. -
In regards to the naming, I like the localization of the Straw Hats in German, but I haven't read anything past Vol. 40ish, as I switched to collecting the English Volumes.
We've got:So all in all its not a bad choice, though I'm sure there are some issues with it. As localization is an art form itself.
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For the longest time Luffy bothered me because i had read it as Ruffy so long
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@wolfwood
I haven't found any source for the origin of the name. But it was a time when all animes had the japanese names replaced with european ones.
Maison Ikkoku French title was Juliette je t'aime
Kaptain Tsubasa was Olive et Tom
And City Hunter was Nicky Larson. That one has become so cult that a French director has recently made a movie from it and he kept the Nicky Larson name:
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@The-Light-of-Shandora said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas
I've only read the official translation, but they mention the page before that "And just like the black coal of his family name, the final head of Kurozumi Orochi burned to a crisp." Of course it doesn't tell you that Kurozumi means charcoal, but it can't be more obvious than this.
When I read it the first time, I had some issues with it. But after reading it a second time. I have no more issues with it, though I still haven't warmed up to it, as it sounds kinda wrong to me.Oh it does? Thank you very much for clarifying this. I will have to re-read it again. I guess I missed it because I still had the scanslation mindset when reading the official translation.
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@Kdom That's now the only piece of city hunter media i haven't watched. Do you know if it is any good? I'm considering importing it if i can find a version with eng subtitles
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@wolfwood Most people agree to say it was respectful of the original content and if you like City Hunter you will probably like it.
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....ooook, but after hearing a lot about Kuma's bear jokes and having nothing of the sorts in the official translation down here (South America), can anyone give me at least one exemple? I imagine they must be minor, situational puns but I'm interested nonetheless.
I'd love to eventually read a "Lost in translations: little details you missed in OP" if someone with the knowledge had the time lol.
The bit from Jinbe speaking pattern in particular, going from "kun" to "san" when talking to Luffy, seems the kind of finesse I'm not used to find in OP. But maybe what happens is that they are undone in the translation process, uh? A shame, really. -
@puffing-cinema In Dressrosa, when the citizens were running away from the birdcage we see one person looking for a kid with a t-shirt with a bear on it. Later we see the kid but turns out the t-shirt has kuma's face on it and not an actual bear. I think that's the most notable joke I remember about it.
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lol, I'll try to spot him in re-reads. Thanks, mate!
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The problem I have with this thinking is that a good translation/localization should capture the spirit and feel of the work first and foremost. Oda might mix different languages from across the world for names and the like but at the end of the day, he mostly uses Japanese because thatâs the language he knows and his audience knows. We shouldnât take his use of it as this special thing like he does when using Spanish or German (I make an exception for English because of how widely used and borrowed from it is in modern Japan; itâs part of the school curriculum for crying out loud). If he uses a foreign word or name, itâs probably to make the world seem larger and more exotic by filling it with something that different to his readersâ eyes, ears, and mind. Or to confuse them, like with the
3D2Y thing.For a place like Wano (which is based on Tokugawa Japan), I agree that leaving the names untranslated is the right way to go about it (they place should feel like fedual Japan). But others are up for debate. If Oda gives a characters name thatâs meant to be a joke, I donât see why it shouldnât be translated as such to the readerâs language. Letâs use Foxyâs Groggy monsters as an example; a lot of people get upset that the Viz translation calls the Wotan Big Bun instead of leaving it as Big Pan. But Big Bun fits with the whole joke of the Groggy monsters as being part of a Hamburger. Hamburg is a loan word without an already existing equivalent to refer to the meat, and Pickles is an English word that wouldnât be unknown in Japan. Anything that keeps away a translators note is a good thing in my book. So names that Oda intends for us to laugh at should be translated. Same with most place names: I prefer Orange Town and Syrup Village over the Japanese ones, if for no other reason then itâs easier to read and spell.
The other problem is the lack of consistency; people stick with the name they see first thatâs used constantly. The whole reason Haki stuck was because the fan translators (besides Stephen) didn't think âspiritâ or âambitionâ fit with Rayleighâs action of knocking someone out in chapter 500* (I wish I could find those old translations because the Translators notes might help newer understand why leaving it as Haki was a problem; everyone these days seems to steal the Viz ones). Other examples include preferring Red-Hair pirates for Shanks crew but leaving Hancockâs as Kuja or have the Worst Gens called Supernovas but want Shichibukai to remain. Even names arenât consistent, sure many people say leave Kuma as Kuma but these same people also support translating the names of the Usopp pirates. And the only reason I can explain any of it is that people just stick to what theyâre used to.
- I actually might be misremembering this as well i.e. they did translate it at first but switched to just Haki later on.
And to go back to Kuma, my take is that heâs the only two of the original seven warlords whose animal name isnât in English (not including the bat pun in Moriaâs name). Now Jim Boy should be left as is; itâs tough to find a good English variant while keeping the animal part in for him (Whark, Whasha, Whashark, not feeling any of these). But Kuma, just call him Bear, it helps an English reader understand the connection.
Now, should all names be translated? Of course not. I donât think Nami should be âWaveâ or Sengoku should be âWarring States.â What names should be translated and which shouldnât is a case-by-case basis. But I donât agree with a hard line stance of keeping the names Oda choices for his characters the same, especially if thereâs a joke involved. This is after all, a series about a goofy rubber pirate; Oda wants us to laugh.
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@Bugs
I hear what you say but I don't agree with that sentiment. Yes, many names are Japanese because that's the language it's written in but I just don't see this as reason enough too translate a name. I really don't have more to add to this point because I think I would just be repeating myself.Big Bun however is plain wrong. Not only because it is literally written ăăł (pan) in Japanese and not ăăł (ban) which is how you would spell 'bun' in Katakana. But also because the character literally uses a ăăă°ăăł (big pan) when Foxy orders the Monster Burger in chapter 312. In this scene the Groggy Monsters literally list the components of what they add to the Monster Burger and they do it by calling out their own names (or codenames if that's what they are). And when it's Big Pans turn, he's literally holding to big frying pans in his hands and saying out his name when refering to them.
But that's not it though. There's even one more argument to prove why bun is just wrong. The Japanese word for bread is ăăł. It's just another of the many forgeign words that made it's way into the Japanes language. In it comes from the Spanish "pan" which, you guessed correctly, means bread. Nobody here in Japan even knows what a 'bun' is supposed to be but everybody knows what a 'pan' is. But for some reason some people are really hellbent on keeping it Big Bun even though it makes zero sense.
And that's me even leaving out the dish Hamburg (Steak) here in Japan which is the hamburger meat patty served on a still frying hot pan. I'm leaving this out because Foxy specifically ordered a Monster Burger and not a Hamburg (Steak). But it does deserve to be mentioned because it adds one more aspect about the Japanese food culture (one which seems to be mostly unknown in the west) that shows further connections between a hamburger meat patty, pickles and a frying pan.
So to summerize the arguments for pan:
- it's literally writen 'pan' in Japanese
- the character hold big pans in his hands when introducing his contribution to the Monster Burger
- 'pan' being the Japanese word for bread
- frying pans being an integral part of a Hamburg Steak which is a popular dish in Japan
Arguments for bun:
- nothing really. It seems like the personal preferance of specific fans who are most likely native English speakers and want to have it their way. That's not aimed at you btw. I just have experience with talking to exactly these kind of guys here in the forums in the past.
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The problem with that is
a) if you look Big Bun (or Big Panâs) weapons they resemble a hamburger bun, they even have screws that resemble sesame seeds. Not a frying pan or the like.
b) He talks about smashing them between his pan/bun. That doesnât make much sense for a frying pan or a bread pan or any other type of kitchenware, but for a bun, absolutely. Especially when Hamburg and Pickles are also talking their weapons in food prep terms that are relevant to their names.
A visual Hamburger pun.Given that the two other two monsters are named after hamburger parts, it seems logical to accept that Oda meant for the guy to be a named after another part; ie the bread. If the wotan was talking about frying or the like, I'd be all for keeping it as Big Pan, but
Itâs true that Oda doesnât use the word for hamburger bun (ăăłăș), but instead the word ăăł, which does mean both bread (from Portuguese ) and pan (from English), so I can accept a double pun. But if youâre translating into English and have to choice between keeping the bread reference or the cookware one to make the joke, Iâll go with the former. Personal preference, sure, but it fits in context.
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@Bugs
I don't really see a problem here. All previously made points still stand. The Katakana is clearly "pan" and not "ban" (which is required for 'bun'), he literally uses the spelling in his name when he introduces the pans, and bread, even burger bread is labelled 'pan' in Japanese. That it has the shape of an actual bun is an artistic choice because they are making a burger. But still, 'bun' is nothing an Japanese audience can relate to while 'pan' definitely rings a bell for every single Japanese person, because that's the default word for bread.I can understand that English speakers want to keep it as 'bun' because there's a sense of familiarity. But as stated before, the term shouldn't ring a bell to any Japanese person. I'm not saying that Oda might not have heard of the term, because I don't know the man. But at the same time I would assume that it's more of a coincidence here when a) pan is clearly what is written and b) it works as a double pun (no pun intended...oh god, this works just too good for this subject XD ) and not something the author did intentionally.
And I don't think that a translator should be actively changing the proper romanizations for the Katakana just to fit their own comfort zone better. Especially if you consider that keeping the proper romanization of the Kana accurately describes the big iron things in the characters hands in English. If a translator starts to pick incorrect romanizations then we open the door for further arbitrariness. Then we might just change Wiper to Viper (as the German translations actually did because they have no idea what a wiper could even be).
I get why you want to keep it, but I think it's the wrong approach mate.
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How about we all agree that every translation should be a gag dub ala the Lupin red jacket series. Imagine how much greater OP could've been with references to contemporary basketball players and i dunno the rock?
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@wolfwood
You've picked my interested. Could I ask for more detailed examples please? -
@Kdom Nice. If it's done by someone with love for the franchise it should be good. I mean i just saw that new animated movie they made like 2019 or something, and that whole thing was just a massive love letter to it all. Nearly fangasmed to death when the opening chase was done to angel night.