I don't like the Nami stuff that much as well but I dunno how this could be the trigger for the critissm now.
But we'll finally we can discuss it
I don't like the Nami stuff that much as well but I dunno how this could be the trigger for the critissm now.
But we'll finally we can discuss it
I for once think Skypea and Davy Back Fight weren't that great and most people disagree with me.
I don't like the Nami stuff that much as well but I dunno how this could be the trigger for the critissm now.
But we'll finally we can discuss it
I believe it's because some fans held their criticism until Wano's battle started, holding the hope every straw hat would shine there. The arc being the culmination of 8 years of build-up
And now we got this… A teased 2 vs 2 with Nami and Usopp as a duo that ended up being Nami getting carried through the whole battle not using herwits, only winning because her opponent was 95% down. Even during the finishing blow she was mostly spectator. And apparently what could have been Usopp opponent is down for good. If other fights get rushed I could feel it being the last straw.
I already complained in the past about my feeling about Oda post-TS. My love for this manga hasn't decreased but I still see the missed opportunities.
The changing point for me would actually be the end of Thriller Bark to be exact.
It's like if drawing Luffy having his own adventure for that long (Amazon Lily, Impel Down and Marineford) turned this manga into something it wasn't before that point. At least for me.
OP's main strength for me for so long is how this manga really felt like that there were multiple MAIN characters. But then it went into a more classic 1 MC + a large cast of changeable secondary characters (including non-crewmembers) direction that we find in most of the other manga.
Even after the crew reunion, he never managed to give back the feeling that anyone besides Luffy can be qualified a MAIN character.
Especially when it comes to fights. You can see how much he seem to enjoy drawing Luffy over the rest of the crew.
Even someone like Zoro. A new sword and giving scratchs to Kaido with similar looking skills used pre-TS doesn't count as big developments for me. That CoC line did nothing for me. You need to deliver on that potential hype for that to really count.
And make no mistake I love what he did with Luffy. His fight against Katakuri is the best fight in this manga IMO but if to get such amazing fights we had to lose pages and pages of potential battles and power-ups for the rest of the crew I'm not sure it was worth it.
Now when it comes to rest of the battles (Luffy not included) unfortunately I'm still in the opinion that it's extremely likely that they won't go past 20 pages each.
Maybe 30 pages for King and Queen and I still have fear that I'll be disappointed by those 2 fights. Like instead of Sanji and somehow-healed Zoro defeating the 2 with some new skills and without help, the other allies will do and Oda will feel like he satisfied our wishes by having them part of the finishing blows in a cool looking spread, add some random spectators hype words and put a bow on that.
As for Nami and Usopp, they have to have another role to play left because the raid is still far from over and their main mission is over. It just suck that it will not be a main battle role.
Anyway, if this chapter gives such reaction, I can't think of the shitstorm it will be if the BB fights are not a direct match-up with the 11 SH. Which is actually my prediction for years now: I can no longer see the plot going in that direction (SH on their own and BB captains on their own).
I for once think Skypea and Davy Back Fight weren't that great and most people disagree with me.
What do you mean, those two arcs are by far the most disliked arcs by the mainstream, some calling the latter skippable filler even in the manga
Imagine instead we got Nami unlocking haki due to her sheer belief in luffy and willpower to make him pirate king. Would make for an awesome scene rivaling Usopp's one in Dressrosa. Just enough to allow her to stand up to Ulti a bit more, to eventually deliver a massive planned-out finishing blow. Would have been a great follow up to her previous belief in luffy moment, a spark to now light the fire of her haki. Instead we got magic cloud guy she got by insane luck bailing her out. After previously being bailed out by insane luck multiple times.
I'm more bummed out by Ulti losing like this without any tension than by Nami not getting a moment, but it's such a headscratcher from a writer's point of view. Why would you ever leave such a golden opportunity to develop one of your main characters lying like that?
It could still be saved in a round 2 after raid failing, but I have absolutely 0 faith in that happening anymore.
@Kishido:
So is OP now allowed to get criticism? I said it was before that post TS OP isn't as amazing as it has been.
And a lot of the points brought up now are nothing new for me.
But surprising that this chapter brought so much up…
Wuh..? But pretty much every chapter gets criticism here since like Punk Hazard if not sooner.
What do you mean, those two arcs are by far the most disliked arcs by the mainstream, some calling the latter skippable filler even in the manga
I'm pretty sure Foxy's has the lowest sales in volumes ever, and Oda seems determined to never make that mistake again, Foxy's been bassically relegated to an Anime only character nowadays.
Oda usually likes to emphasize that you can have good times in the present even though you had bad times in the past, and maybe Yamato feeling like a failure for not being able to do anything about Oden get boiled up and Momo being threatened could suffice. Of course, there's also Yamato's mother, who could play a role in the past tragedy as well.
So is OP now allowed to get criticism? I said it was before that post TS OP isn't as amazing as it has been.
And a lot of the points brought up now are nothing new for me.
But surprising that this chapter brought so much up…
There always seems to be some pre vs. post time skip criticism when it happens in a manga.
Was hoping the trend wouldn't happen in OP but alas.
Also One Piece ALWAYS got criticism. Not sure why you're asking if you're allowed now.
I'm pretty sure Foxy's has the lowest sales in volumes ever, and Oda seems determined to never make that mistake again, Foxy's been bassically relegated to an Anime only character nowadays.
That's funny because the Groggy Ring fight is one of the best duo fight of the serie. Exactly what we missed for Nami and Usopp.
I already complained in the past about my feeling about Oda post-TS. My love for this manga hasn't decreased but I still see the missed opportunities.
The changing point for me would actually be the end of Thriller Bark to be exact.
It's like if drawing Luffy having his own adventure for that long (Amazon Lily, Impel Down and Marineford) turned this manga into something it wasn't before that point. At least for me.
OP's main strength for me for so long is how this manga really felt like that there were multiple MAIN characters. But then it went into a more classic 1 MC + a large cast of changeable secondary characters (including non-crewmembers) direction that we find in most of the other manga.
Even after the crew reunion, he never managed to give back the feeling that anyone besides Luffy can be qualified a MAIN character.
Especially when it comes to fights. You can see how much he seem to enjoy drawing Luffy over the rest of the crew.
Even someone like Zoro. A new sword and giving scratchs to Kaido with similar looking skills used pre-TS doesn't count as big developments for me. That CoC line did nothing for me. You need to deliver on that potential hype for that to really count.
And make no mistake I love what he did with Luffy. His fight against Katakuri is the best fight in this manga IMO but if to get such amazing fights we had to lose pages and pages of potential battles and power-ups for the rest of the crew I'm not sure it was worth it.
Now when it comes to rest of the battles (Luffy not included) unfortunately I'm still in the opinion that it's extremely likely that they won't go past 20 pages each.
Maybe 30 pages for King and Queen and I still have fear that I'll be disappointed by those 2 fights. Like instead of Sanji and somehow-healed Zoro defeating the 2 with some new skills and without help, the other allies will do and Oda will feel like he satisfied our wishes by having them part of the finishing blows in a cool looking spread, add some random spectators hype words and put a bow on that.
As for Nami and Usopp, they have to have another role to play left because the raid is still far from over and their main mission is over. It just suck that it will not be a main battle role.
Anyway, if this chapter gives such reaction, I can't think of the shitstorm it will be if the BB fights are not a direct match-up with the 11 SH. Which is actually my prediction for years now: I can no longer see the plot going in that direction (SH on their own and BB captains on their own).
I completely agree with your criticism. It's not as bad as Naruto, which I dropped at a certain point, but One Piece has lost much of it's allure and the lack of focus on the other SH's has been apparant ever since before the timeskip when Oda decided to have a whole arc without any of the other SH's (Amazon Lilly, Impel Down and Marineford). Since then all the other SH's haven't really had much focus, to the point that we haven't even really seen the full extend of the growth the SH's have had during the timeskip, what they trained for 2 years for. They spent 2 years apart for training purposes and we are still waiting for a good showing of their new skills.
Now he is giving the SH's upgrades while we don't even have any idea of the skills they acquired during the timeskip except for Luffy and Zoro but even Zoro hasn't really shown us anything new. Just that his old moves have become stronger and that Ashura was CoC-infused all along. You'd think that 2 years with Mihawk would have amounted in something new, but apparantly not. What we know is: Sanji got an upgrade in the form of his raid suit without us actually seeing how strong he has become. Chopper gets 25 minutes more moster point while this duration up until now was never the problem. I find this to be a pretty unoriginal "upgrade". Robin has bigger limbs but never fights so what good does it do? Brook got some ice-powers but to what extend did he hone his DF-power, what can he do? Franky is bigger but haven't seen enough of him to be impressed by his Vegapunk-upgrades, Nami, whom we saw nothing from in the form of fights or new skills except "weather balls" suddenly gets a sentient baton eliminating the need for her to actually fight (unless this baton is 1 arc only and Big Mom takes her soul back) and Ussop is still a coward that shows he's a coward every chance he gets. At least he gets to have CoO which is useful for a sniper I guess. If only he was still a sniper instead of someone that has a convenient "pop green" for every situation known to man but for some reason doesn't use the most useful addition to his arsenal, being his dials.
To be honest, at this point I'm just still reading it because I have been reading it so long that I want to know how it ends but it doens't excite me the way it used to.
Do we know how the japanese fans have received this chapter ? Are they as disappointed as we are ?
I'm pretty sure Foxy's has the lowest sales in volumes ever, and Oda seems determined to never make that mistake again, Foxy's been bassically relegated to an Anime only character nowadays.
Here's the thing, it's very likely that fanbase feedback, taking the form of editorial inputs, play a huge behind the scenes role in many of the issues that cause our criticism, at least on par with Oda's understandable fatigue of writing the same story about the same charachters for a quarter of century.
Some of us may appreciate the Davy Back as one of the finest points in One Piece but many, possibly the majority, among the actual target demographic will write it of as boring simply for the lack of high stakes and huge dramas, while probably saying that Marineford, objectively the dumbest arc of the whole manga, was their favourite*.
Thus I can picture an editor sitting at a table with Oda and telling him"less of this, more of that" and he complies.
I just hope we get at least a one volume breather after the Wano/Emperors arc is done with, let us and the crew catch a break, let Yamato blend in, get Urouge back for the mandatory supernova but nobody else, then get on with the save the world or let everybody die final 10 years arc… but seems Sabo as per his usual already ruined that too so little hope for that right now.
*I'm not saying that anyone is dumb for liking Marineford and disliking long ring long land, of course. i'm talking about the intrinsic value of those arc and about the ounger audience liking huge battles with huge names more
If we go by Greg's Twitter reaction as a measuring stick, yup. But Greg only speaks for himself, I guess.
Disregarding the criticism of the overall series, which I mostly disagree with, I just wonder how Oda was capable of doing this to Nami a few weeks after she got TOP3 in the worldwide popularity polls! She was third after Luffy and Zoro, ffs. She deserves an actual triumph. This was just a big no no. It could have been interesting as a turning point in the middle of the fight, which starts shifting the tides in favor of Nami and Usopp. But not the finishing move, dammit. Have Big Mom take Page One out and turn this into a 2v1, since Namisopp were clearly way out of their league against these two. But this was way too much. While it was fun to follow the fate of Zeus and finally cement him as Naomi's minion, it could not have replaced a full, fulfilling fight.
And I think that this is the biggest problem for post-TS one piece for most people who complain. Not most people in this forum, which have a different taste from the community at large. But if Oda gave recurrent satisfying 1v1 fights to the straw hats in most arcs, most people wouldn't complain half as much. To people complaining about this arc lacking an emotional core and a reason to want to beat Kaido, this is a symptom of not really reading the series properly anymore. If there is a problem with this arc's emotional core is that there are too many. Tama/Hitetsu, Okobore town, Ebisu town, Tonoyasu and Tokyo, Kin'emon, Tsuru, the Scabbards in general, the Smile side effects (be it for the local poor folk or for Killer and Kid), the injustice of the regime/pollution and destruction of the natural environment VS. Fake prosperity for the capital, Hiyori having to essentially become a fancy prostitute to survive, and this is just from the top of my head. Wano has been a blast to me, the Onigashima raid has been the second most fun I've had with OP since at least Impel Down. Totto Land was by far the best post-TS arc and it's one of the best in the whole series for me, honestly.
But just to feel part of the group, yeah, this Namisopp subplot sucked. Bad for Nami, bad for Usopp, bad for Page One, bad for Ulti. Pretty good for Zeus, though.
Well, I wouldn't blame Foxy's arc only, I think Skypiea widely contributed to dehype the series at that point.
I would also argue that Oda miscalculated the moment to bring Davy Back fight into the series.
It could've been a much more sucessful arc if it was placed right after Alabasta, or at least that's what I think so.
If we go by Greg's Twitter reaction as a measuring stick, yup. But Greg only speaks for himself, I guess.
Disregarding the criticism of the overall series, which I mostly disagree with, I just wonder how Oda was capable of doing this to Nami a few weeks after she got TOP3 in the worldwide popularity polls! She was third after Luffy and Zoro, ffs. She deserves an actual triumph. This was just a big no no. It could have been interesting as a turning point in the middle of the fight, which starts shifting the tides in favor of Nami and Usopp. But not the finishing move, dammit. Have Big Mom take Page One out and turn this into a 2v1, since Namisopp were clearly way out of their league against these two. But this was way too much. While it was fun to follow the fate of Zeus and finally cement him as Naomi's minion, it could not have replaced a full, fulfilling fight.
And I think that this is the biggest problem for post-TS one piece for most people who complain. Not most people in this forum, which have a different taste from the community at large. But if Oda gave recurrent satisfying 1v1 fights to the straw hats in most arcs, most people wouldn't complain half as much. To people complaining about this arc lacking an emotional core and a reason to want to beat Kaido, this is a symptom of not really reading the series properly anymore. If there is a problem with this arc's emotional core is that there are too many. Tama/Hitetsu, Okobore town, Ebisu town, Tonoyasu and Tokyo, Kin'emon, Tsuru, the Scabbards in general, the Smile side effects (be it for the local poor folk or for Killer and Kid), the injustice of the regime/pollution and destruction of the natural environment VS. Fake prosperity for the capital, Hiyori having to essentially become a fancy prostitute to survive, and this is just from the top of my head. Wano has been a blast to me, the Onigashima raid has been the second most fun I've had with OP since at least Impel Down. Totto Land was by far the best post-TS arc and it's one of the best in the whole series for me, honestly.
But just to feel part of the group, yeah, this Namisopp subplot sucked. Bad for Nami, bad for Usopp, bad for Page One, bad for Ulti. Pretty good for Zeus, though.
I don't really care about the actual fighting myself but I am unhappy with the way things have been going for a while now overall and it's not because the SH's don't get their 1-on-1 fights at all. They can work together, they can show their own skills that are not fight related, etc. for all I care but you have to admit that the SH's in the past not only grew in strength but also as characters in fights. Right now there's virtually no focus on any SH except for Luffy and the other SH's have had so little showings that we hardly know what they trained for during the 2 year timeskip while now, apparantly, they are getting upgrades.
The manga Foxy arc is a ton of fun and a highlight in the series looking back.
Honestly I don’t think Wano will be seen as a masterpiece once it’s completed and I think a lot of complaints people are staying now will still hold up, but I would want to see how well it holds up in one sitting vs reading it weekly. It’s definitely a different experience reading something weekly and analyzing it to death vs reading a story on a whole in bulk.
This is coming from someone who started the series in the middle of the Enies Lobby fights. And I still think Water 7 was the highlight of the series, finding things to nitpick in all future arcs; that said I’m long overdue for a reread of the post time skip arcs again for one sitting to see how things hold up.
I don't really care about the actual fighting myself but I am unhappy with the way things have been going for a while now overall and it's not because the SH's don't get their 1-on-1 fights at all. They can work together, they can show their own skills that are not fight related, etc. for all I care but you have to admit that the SH's in the past not only grew in strength but also as characters in fights. Right now there's virtually no focus on any SH except for Luffy and the other SH's have had so little showings that we hardly know what they trained for during the 2 year timeskip while now, apparantly, they are getting upgrades.
Again, while I see your point and agree up to a certain point, I'll just say that:
Nami and Robin are the ones I feel keep getting shafted, especially Robin. She had, like, 2 or 3 cool panels since the time skip. Nami had good emotional moments with the kids in PH and in the Sanji drama last arc, but not much else. And Franky has been essentially a parody of a macho man/pervert cyborg.
I think there’s a difference between Oda not writing every straw hat to have a 1 v 1 fight and completely neglecting them. Oda still goes out of his way to make at least some of the straw hats shine, blatantly so in cases like the Ice Oni plot or the Black Maria side plot. I would still say every post TS arc has a moment where a straw hat is given a unique situation that places the focus on them.
I really don't get the handwringing over Nami, she's clearly gonna be doing stuff in this arc, all of the Strawhats have more work to do when you think about it. Like I'm conservative at estimating how long Wano has to go (30-40 chapters max until the fighting ends), and even I think that we're gonna see more SH moments and even secondary fights happening.
Ulti was explicitly designed to push Nami towards the point of acquiring and then accepting the idea of having to use Zeus. I get that she was one of the more charismatic Beast pirates, but it's not like any of them are gonna start getting multi-chapter fights and flashbacks, they are Doflamingo's officers MK2, if you expect more out of them then I'm sad to tell you that you will likely be disappointed.
@Sibersk:
I think there’s a difference between Oda not writing every straw hat to have a 1 v 1 fight and completely neglecting them. Oda still goes out of his way to make at least some of the straw hats shine, blatantly so in cases like the Ice Oni plot or the Black Maria side plot. I would still say every post TS arc has a moment where a straw hat is given a unique situation that places the focus on them.
There's also a difference between giving a character something to do and a moment to shine and writing them as actual main characters. The point some of us are making is that the manga shifted from having a main cast and a supporting cast to having Luffy and a supporting cast. Usopp, Nami, Chopper, Franky now have to compete on equal ground for spotlight with the likes of Law, Kid, Kin'emon, Carrot, Marco, Bepo. Only Luffy gets to stir the story forward, all the others just tag along and wait for their turn to have their moment so that we can say "well he/she wasn't useless after all".
Take for example Nami's brave stance for Luffy during her first clash with Ulti. It came out if the blue, after an off-screen beating and we're basically left thinking "well, that's nice for her, but doesn't really change much . I mean, who cares what Ulti thinks about pirate kings?"
Usopp's big moments in Dressrosa were, just like Nami's this week, accidental and independent from his will (scaring sugar the first time and randomly unlocking Haki) .
And even the very good moments, like Robin's rescue of sanji some time ago for example, end up feeling like something ticked off a to-do list, rather than an organic development in what that character is doing on his own in that arc, because their stuck in the middle of similar important scenes for the samurais or the other captains.
Am I the only one who doesn't really mind much if the straw hats get sidelined? Oda's endless creativity allows him to make so many great side characters and plots. I'm definitely still enjoying OP a lot while I'm not even reading any other manga (besides the excellent one punch man). Luffy is a fine main character, but not really amazing or unique to me. Zoro is strong I guess but he has no emotional core to me, so I don't care. I still like Usopp, definitely invested in him despite the treatment he gets post-TS. But he's the only one.
Meanwhile we still got tons of good other stuff post-TS:
Wano as a whole is very well developed. Momo definitely grew on me in Wano. I can totally empathize with him. Shinobu is a queen. Yasuie was great. Luffy was awesome in the Udon climax. Scabbards individually don't all grip me, but as a unit I'm definitely invested and they have great dramatic scenes. Orochi is a great piece of shit. Ulti was a blast for how long it lasted. BM gets meme'd on but she's still entertaining as hell.
Besides Wano Whole Cake was pure gold, just OP at it's best. Ceasar Clown the hilarious piece of shit. Kaido's intro was amazing, actually rivaling's whitebeard's sendoff to me. When Usopp shines post-TS he absolutely freaking shines. Luffy's reaction to Sabo made me tear up. And much more.
Just kinda bummed that some of those plot points I'm invested in don't get the proper sendoff or emotional stakes I'm looking for (raid appearing to succeed without any big tension (case in point Ulti), which kinda blows after all the time we got to be invested in Wano. SMILES hyped back in PH getting completely shit on by Tama the Devourer of Minds. BM getting her hype dunked on. Luffy apparently already being superior to base Kaido. etc.).
I complain a lot because it's more fun to be a critic but post-TS is still a great manga. Maybe if I had read pre-TS weekly I'd be just as critical.
@Gizmo:
Honestly I don’t think Wano will be seen as a masterpiece once it’s completed and I think a lot of complaints people are staying now will still hold up, but I would want to see how well it holds up in one sitting vs reading it weekly. It’s definitely a different experience reading something weekly and analyzing it to death vs reading a story on a whole in bulk.
Can confirm Wano is fine reading in bulk. It can still drag in some places. Especially the raid when it focuses on the supernova was a real slog for me. Act 1 is whatever, but as a whole it has tons of good moments and is made up of all these cool smaller stories
Nami having her "Luffy won't ever stop until he becomes pirate king" moment was already underwhelming because we missed a huge chunk of that story. And then Nami had another emotional moment when she attacked Ulti for hurting Tama. There two attempts of emotional weight for this interaction yet, we get such a swift, unsatisfying conclusion? We know Oda can write fun fleshed out fights, yet he undermined Nami as a character… It's just disappointing.
With other aspects that's added up since.
Nami having her "Luffy won't ever stop until he becomes pirate king" moment was already underwhelming because we missed a huge chunk of that story
That Nami moment also is a perfect example of how mediocre current One Piece has become. It just lacks any emotional weight. This could and should perfectly have been a volume-ender cliffhanger. Instead it not only was an also-ran scene, it was also resolved in the very same chapter (I assume because Oda actually knew he blew up the execution too much in order to work as any form of cliffhanger).
That scene just doesn't feel healthy and organic in any way. It's completely not intervowen within the narrative and any other ongoing subplot properly. Instead this scene just exists in its own bubble - without any impact or emotional weight.
Actually that scene could have worked perfectly in combination with Luffy's inner conflict and biggest fear. So what's Luffy's biggest fear? That a comrade dies right in front of his eyes because he is too weak. That was the whole point of the Kizaru encounter at Sabaody. So what is current Luffy's biggest inner conflict and fear? Of course, that despite all his 2-year-long training and hardships he still is not powerful enough to actually protect everyone in the very end.
Therefore, that scene had way more emotional weight if it actually happened right in front of Luffy. Because then it would perfectly accompany Luffy's internal struggle. Of course, for maximum emotional impact the killing blow has to come from the big man Kaido himself. For example, during their fight Ulti could have pummeled nami all the way up to the roof. And then a heavily injured and unable-to-move Nami just ends up in front of Kaido who also just subdued Luffy. Whereas Ulti protests that Kaido shall only play with his own Toy, Kaido laments how powerless Luffy still is and asks Nami the very same question and the scene occurs. But with actual emotional weight. (Not saying this is necessarily the de facto way it has to happen, it's only one of many possibilities.)
Besides, such a scenario was foreshadowed quite a lot like:
Of course, Nami will survive, but such a scene never is about the reader truly believing in the death. Instead it's more about seeing Luffy witnessing and reacting to it. That is, being confronted with his biggest fear and inner demons and therefore having to deal with them in some way. Besides, we can ask how exactly nami will survive as well.
Sure, Luffy got a lot of screentime. But even Luffy lacks some actual quality screentime. Like is there any chapter or scene in the Wano arc where Luffy has to deal with the actual possibility that a Strawhat might seriously die for real even in the slightest?
Instead all the different characters and subplots are completely plodding along on their own, only fulfilling their basic tasks on a very barebones levels, but completely unable to properly work together creating something bigger and greater which actually invokes emotions and meaning on a deeper level.
Well, I wouldn't blame Foxy's arc only, I think Skypiea widely contributed to dehype the series at that point.
I would also argue that Oda miscalculated the moment to bring Davy Back fight into the series.
It could've been a much more sucessful arc if it was placed right after Alabasta, or at least that's what I think so.
I disagree. The Davy Back Fight gives a nice reprieve between the behemoth arcs that are Skypiea and Water 7/Enies Lobby, and it primes the reader for the idea of losing crew members and the crew being broken up, which is obviously a major point in the arc that immediately follow. I don’t think it works anywhere else (or at least it would be less effective).
The whole Lola subplot where the Vivre Card paid off was centered around Nami. Nami and possibly all of the Straw Hats have the most dangerous ability, according to Mihawk.
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I disagree with the notion that OP lost something along the way. From the beginning with Chouchou and Koby, it simply was established that this is about what someone considers their treasure and how the crew empowers, encourages and help them protect that treasure. The more they do this for others, the more their own disposition and treasure protecting can shine. Oda has found dope ways to go about that, but he has always stuck to that fundamental. Nami repeating what she did with Zala and Kalifa is repetitive. There are many ways to defeat someone. Ingenuity shouldn't be spammed. It's a disservice to the character. All Nami knows how to do is outsmart her opponents? No.
Nami first time earning Zeus was a loose and weak attachment through his greed, fear, and favorite snack. It was emphasized even more when he abandoned Nami out of that same fear. Oda reinforced it when in that fear was center stage for Zeus and he chose to fight it and show Nami he's not the same anymore. He wanted to prove something to Nami. Not only because she wasn't willing to kill him like BM, but because her charm. The Cat Burglar stole the heart and sole of a Yonko. This is perfectly catered to her character. She has given Zeus a treasure. That is somewhere to fit when he can't fit in where he was initially purposed. Nami had no obligation to help the homie that left her. It's in her character to run away. She came back and helped him.
That is the power that Mihawk spoke of. It paid off and Zeus defeated Ulti. First arc as a true Straw Hat. Ulti showed that she was a problem when getting back multiple times from powerful attacks. Nami showed off what can be considered another method to defeating those in your way, while establishing Zeus treasure. The critique comes off as "why does Sanji have to bake a cake and not fight" as Oda shows an entire arc of Judge sharing the same position that is obviously has gotten him where he is and that is nowhere closer to getting the North Blue back.
If you look at Kaido's crew, it's strength base. Whoever can make it to the top, you can knock each other down. Similar to what Sengoku said of Rocks crew. Kaido even wanted to show it off to his old nakama BM. It left room for Drake to infiltrate. Luffy's crew doesn't need to be the strongest physically. They have the most dangerous power in the sea (yes, I won't stop repeating it).
OP became more of itself. To outwit or overpower your opponent are just 2 methods. If the story is truly getting close to the end, the crew has to be shown to develop the most powerful method to succeed. That is to turn those around you into allies. I seen Nami use her ingenuity. Time for something else. Genuinely befriending Zeus is not the only example. Why do I have to see Marco continuously say "I like this Straw Hat" or something? They have the natural ability that his pops had. I'd wager that is what the Roger Pirates lacked. The allies among other things.
Should the crew wait til the very end for allies that they barely created bonds with to pop up? The allies in post timeskip are more equip to deal with the antagonist, yet the antagonist still has the upper hand. I'd put Wano over Alabasta for multiple reasons.
The crew is empowering individuals that can and have fought, but just lost the will to. This is a tall order compared to helping the helpless. The Udon prisoners are a what if situation. What if Alabasta's civil war went w/o Straw Hat interruption and decades passed by for that depression to settle? How do you even work the nerve to try and encourage someone? Who are you?
The breakdown of oppression. I get to see many examples in Alabasta of what is wrong and BW's work is efficient. In Wano, there is decades of brainwashing of the kids, the prisoners are former proud Samurai that can no longer find the will to fight, what Yasuie did to help the locals, Kawamatsu and Onimaru's conflict, the impact of SMILE, the repeated acts of aggression against innocent people that stem from their family member's actions, Tama barely being able to eat, and the physical toll of even trying to revolt that Luffy learned in the 1st act.
The antagonist was simple at the time. Scheme and get to the PG. Kaido is still being figured out. I'm not buying he just wants to die in a violent and glorious war. Why? Someone or something made him invest in Wano and whatever is a Joy Boy. He knows his son, yet still thinks he fits as the Shogun. Kaido is a more layered and unpredictable antagonist. His kind, the boor and brute, tend to be simple and plain. He has an agenda, he has been open to partnerships and dissolved them without hesitating based on principle and not failure as Crocodile did.
Zoro has found reason outside of "my Captain despises your type". Zoro got to see the people and horror for himself. How they still pull through. How dire the situation is. He has inherited the weight and responsibility of being a protector that Ryuma was. Giving Zoro an extra motivation and not going the "hey, these are your father's father's homeland" or some other generic trope is what a Zorotard like myself appreciates. For an arc, it's not just him being a Luffy follower. He wants to do this and would if Luffy wasn't pissed. I have my criticism for this, even tho I prefer it over his past treatment. Sanji was some of the best writing in all of OP and I was hoping Zoro's treatment would match or top it. That's a different subject.
I've lowered my expectations for One Piece fights since the Fish-Man Island Arc where it started to become apparent that characters not named Luffy or Zoro within the Straw Hat Pirates won't have as thrilling scripted battles (especially the weakling trio).
Oda has chosen to handle his characters in certain ways with Luffy and Zoro being the main Straw Hat Pirate offense force. The rest of the crew are highlighted in different ways that don't involve battles (related to their particular skills/roles).
Sure it sucks perpetually hoping for Robin to finally get a proper 1 vs 1 battle (since Yama) only to have that hope dashed arc after arc but I've accepted that Oda wants to write his characters in a certain way (I won't lie, that Dressrosa treatment still hurts though but it is what it is).
Sanji is not going to be as badass as Zoro, female characters are not going to be as focused on as male characters in battles, Oda doesn't like killing off present time named characters, and he seems to desire to script his battles as not straight-up shounen battles (to resolve that itch, I read other manga).
I've already expressed how I feel about the Wano Arc (bloated with too many characters) but I still find myself enjoying One Piece for what it is. From the moment Nami and Usopp led Page One and Ulti away, I never expected them to defeat those Tobi Roppo members without outside help - Nami and Usopp are too weak relative to Page One and Ulti. Nami achieving her victory over Ulti in that manner was what I expected - enabling cheat codes when she got the Zeus powerup. So I am not that disappointed at what chapter 1016 delivered. Though, I will say that I didn't expect that fight to drag on for so long.
Agreeing with most of the stuff reading and even said this things before… But I have to speak about the emotions... SHs are sidelined... Ok but even the emotional stuff Oda tried to give us through others characters feels lackluster...
Dunno if it is because of the hundred side characters introduced in one arc or that everyone and their mother will get a sob story now. Even villians as Senor Pink.
Besides Zou sob story I really don't give the slightest damn about any of the sob stories post TS... Which is strange as pre skip even now give me some tears in my eyes.
Dressrosa could be so we'll written if it would be a simple flashback of ONE side character to explain the shit he has done. Instead we had at least 4 with Lyrics, Rebecca, Riku and the dwarves... It's not like we haven't got that DoFla is a piece of shit with just one of them
Great Write Up
This is a great write up, man. I'm going to be thinking about it over the next week while trying to gather up my feelings about Nami, but it's nice to read amidst a lot of people being disappointed. And I still am kind of disappointed, but maybe I feel like I might be missing something now.
you guys realize the story is not about nami right ?
oh, i hope you realize it soon.
more importantly, how did Ulti restore half of her missing torso form Big Mom's uncanny attack ? that's where criticism should be pointed at. I think.
One nice thing you can say about the foxy story is that all strawhats got plenty of shine. That and it was good silly fun, nothing more than what was needed after that skypiea side trip.
Guys, we also gotta remember that Oda himself has changed over time as well. His mentality and writing style has changed. For OP to stay the same after this many years is hard.
I, for one, don’t really try to judge each chapter or even arcs/sagas too harshly. I would love to Oda to give each SHs tough battles each arc but like some have mentioned before. OP has changed from just the SHs being a small crew to more of a big picture, world building type arcs where they are still playing a key role but everything is bigger than them. Lot of stuff goes their way and some very convenient things happen each arc that might piss some people off.
I think after the SHs beat Kaidou & BM in this arc…there aren’t really any more strong opponents left that SH would struggle against maybe BB pirates but Luffy learning CoC attacks and mastering it shouldn’t pose too big of a challenge.
In order for Oda to finish the story and all the loose ends, we’ll see future arcs with more focus on world building rather than getting 1v1 for all the SHs.
I don’t mind the Nami win since this whole arc has been a lot of running around and chaos around them…there are too many characters involved and it’s very hard to get a proper 1v1. Even Luffy’s 1v1 against Kaidou wouldn’t have lasted too long since Yamamoto reached the top fairly quick after Luffy falling down.
Let’s not give up on OP guys. Just accept that even future arcs we will have wayyyyy too many characters involved to get 1v1 fights. Everything going forward is going to be a scrimmage as SHs proceed through an area. The sooner everyone accepts that the sooner you will stop getting disappointed with our beloved OP.
And I suck at writing long paragraphs so I apologize if I'm all over the place.
That Nami moment also is a perfect example of how mediocre current One Piece has become. It just lacks any emotional weight. This could and should perfectly have been a volume-ender cliffhanger. Instead it not only was an also-ran scene, it was also resolved in the very same chapter (I assume because Oda actually knew he blew up the execution too much in order to work as any form of cliffhanger).
That scene just doesn't feel healthy and organic in any way. It's completely not intervowen within the narrative and any other ongoing subplot properly. Instead this scene just exists in its own bubble - without any impact or emotional weight.
How is the lack of interwoven nature any different than Usopp’s declaration of believing in Luffy in Alabasta and that whole arc/battle?
Also, don’t get me wrong, I see the overstuffing in the arcs so if a story is overstuffed and it’s a blink and you’ll miss it moment, then it’s not doing a good job, but recall what Franky said to Nami when they faced Big Mom. She wants Franky to run away but Franky reminds her the SHs are meant to make Luffy the Pirate King. So now we have the moment where Nami was unable to hold her own against a strong opponent and was given the option to die if she renounced her Captain (which came from one of the only Big 6 that has claimed Kaidou would become Pirate King iirc in chapter 983), and then she wouldn’t even upon knowing she was going to die. Sure she couldn’t fulfill her role in keeping her end in helping Luffy become Pirate King, but she still held her opinion based on that. And I liked she didn’t face death with dignity, still pleading for her life. It’s still in character to fear for your life without wanting to speak ill of your Captain.
I would’ve loved to have it come full circle and have Nami actually win on her own after the fact, or at least like others have said blah blah, but I don’t get why that scene is looked down upon. It’s a solid scene for Nami.
Re: if other fights will end up like Nami's/Usopp's
The special ingredient for why their fight was so lackluster was they had THE force of forces tear through and nerf their opponents, a Yonkou. Big Mom is now thankfully occupied by Kid and Law, so it'd have to be some weird-ass shit where Kaido just decimates Sasaki for no reason.
If it had just been some mid-strength character who just punched Ulti or something, that could've easily been shrugged off both by the readers and her. So if something like that happens to one of the other fights, it's much more palatable. They are generally Ancient Zoans after all, extreme durability.
That and, let's be real, Oda does have a team of editors and it's clear they pay attention to social media. This is a clear misstep for most and they'd never let Oda repeat a mistake like this again for all upcoming fights, not that he would. It's just an outlier that's gonna suck to deal with, so now Oda has to do some heavy lifting for Nami and Usopp, which he shouldn't have had to do in the first place.
I think I see Oda's thought process. Problem: Usopp and Nami are too far below Ulti. Solution: Weaken Ulti. The problem is he just went way, way too far with the force he used on the solution.
Another thing is Nami and Usopp are much weaker than Ulti, whereas the gap between the other Straw Hats (beside Chopper, kinda sorta, gotta remember Monster Point) is much closer to the Tobi Roppo, so they won't need help. It's just an unfortunate byproduct of them being too weak. My solution? The Tobi Roppo don't all need to be a uniform strength, just have Ulti and P1 not be so ridiculously strong.
How is the lack of interwoven nature any different than Usopp’s declaration of believing in Luffy in Alabasta and that whole arc/battle?
Also, don’t get me wrong, I see the overstuffing in the arcs so if a story is overstuffed and it’s a blink and you’ll miss it moment, then it’s not doing a good job, but recall what Franky said to Nami when they faced Big Mom. She wants Franky to run away but Franky reminds her the SHs are meant to make Luffy the Pirate King. So now we have the moment where Nami was unable to hold her own against a strong opponent and was given the option to die if she renounced her Captain (which came from one of the only Big 6 that has claimed Kaidou would become Pirate King iirc in chapter 983), and then she wouldn’t even upon knowing she was going to die. Sure she couldn’t fulfill her role in keeping her end in helping Luffy become Pirate King, but she still held her opinion based on that. And I liked she didn’t face death with dignity, still pleading for her life. It’s still in character to fear for your life without wanting to speak ill of your Captain.
I would’ve loved to have it come full circle and have Nami actually win on her own after the fact, or at least like others have said blah blah, but I don’t get why that scene is looked down upon. It’s a solid scene for Nami.
Agreed. I thought the scene was completely organic and natural. In fact, having a Sabondy like situation would otoh not have been organic imo. This scene works because there are no stakes. There will be no major harm done if Nami lies and says what the enemy wants to say. Usopp encourages her to do so, and Nami has had no qualms about lying or saying stuff she doesn't mean before. Still she doesn't give in.
In fact, I doubt that Luffy was present for similar scenes with other crewmembers. And it would feel inorganic for that to happen now, just so we can have a scene similar to what we already saw at Sabondy
But anyway, I just caught up to One Piece after around 4 years of break(since chapter 850), and all I can say for now is it's good to be back. I didn't expect that we'd see Big Mom and Kaido teaming up. I really liked how crazy things got in Whole Cake Island, esp Big Mom's backstory. Damn, that was…something. Wano honestly feels like it's an arc that Oda has been wanting to write for a long time,and you can just feel that he's enjoying writing it. Esp for first 2 Acts.
Still not completely happy about initial Sanji hostage situation in WCI, but atleast it didn't last long
Levelie was okay. I personally was somewhat disappointed at how it turned out and was shown. One thing that i must point out that I disliked a lot was how the trope of evil Celestial Dragons being reused once more,even with the exact same characters. Now, I don't have a problem with chimps like Charlos being chimps. What i find problematic is that Cipher Pol and Elder stars not restraining such retarded and senseless stuff like making a princess of a member nation of WG and a Levelie attendee(only 50 /~170 countries are invited) a slave. I mean yeah, Fishmen are and were discriminated against, but the WG made them a part of WG, made Jinbei a Shichibukai,so it's not like they don't want relations to improve.Not to mention that it would reduce confidence among even human royalty like Vivi and others, given their equal is treated in such a way
It's one thing to mistreat ordinary people and outlaws, but if they allow such stuff against royalty, heck even princess popular among the people, it's like they are just begging for a revolution
How is the lack of interwoven nature any different than Usopp’s declaration of believing in Luffy in Alabasta and that whole arc/battle?
Also, don’t get me wrong, I see the overstuffing in the arcs so if a story is overstuffed and it’s a blink and you’ll miss it moment, then it’s not doing a good job, but recall what Franky said to Nami when they faced Big Mom. She wants Franky to run away but Franky reminds her the SHs are meant to make Luffy the Pirate King. So now we have the moment where Nami was unable to hold her own against a strong opponent and was given the option to die if she renounced her Captain (which came from one of the only Big 6 that has claimed Kaidou would become Pirate King iirc in chapter 983), and then she wouldn’t even upon knowing she was going to die. Sure she couldn’t fulfill her role in keeping her end in helping Luffy become Pirate King, but she still held her opinion based on that. And I liked she didn’t face death with dignity, still pleading for her life. It’s still in character to fear for your life without wanting to speak ill of your Captain.
I would’ve loved to have it come full circle and have Nami actually win on her own after the fact, or at least like others have said blah blah, but I don’t get why that scene is looked down upon. It’s a solid scene for Nami.
You can compare the Nami and Usopp declarations when in pure isolation, but one of the reasons it feels a bit flat is that it lacks the dramatic windup Usopps' moment had; Yes there is some preceding statements from Franky and Ulti that relate to the moment, but in terms of flow, we move from "Group pose! The Straw Hats are here to kick ass and take names! And heres theres Namis matchup now" instantly to Nami being beaten, sobbing, about to die. And then you also lack the cathartic payoff of Nami then moving to power through and win after making her big statement, rather than lucking out and being saved.
If you just had Usopps declaration agains the Mr 4 pair, and had cut out the entire preceding battle as well as Usopp managing to win afterwards, that moment wouldn't be so fondly remembered either. When you fragment things into "moments" like this they can't be expected to work as well as when you're given the full picture.
Sure, Alabasta is not flawless either. But the deal is: Back then the dramaturgical flaws were outliers.
Whereas today these flaws basically affect every dramaturgical layer. Like we have a weak emotional core (no proper thought line from isolation to Kaido misery), a weak main conflict, weak characters (servants of plot, like Doflamingo dropped all his cunning and charisma and just became a complete moron during his arc), lots of pacing issues (see Daz right before) and so on.
It's actually super hard to really pinpoint what's wrong because nowadays there just is way too much of that.
Sure, Alabasta is not flawless either. But the deal is: Back then the dramaturgical flaws were outliers.
Whereas today these flaws basically affect every dramaturgical layer. Like we have a weak emotional core (no proper thought line from isolation to Kaido misery), a weak main conflict, weak characters (servants of plot, like Doflamingo dropped all his cunning and charisma and just became a complete moron during his arc), lots of pacing issues (see Daz right before) and so on.
It's actually super hard to really pinpoint what's wrong because nowadays there just is way too much of that.
In terms of the raid portion… It's like when tension starts to build, it's swiftly resolved, not allowing to really digest neither the building tension nor the conclusion... It's just too abrupt in some cases.
Well that’s Oda’s biggest problem right there in a nutshell: there’s too much in his story and is finally not able to juggle the balls properly, or at least he did for this final arc/saga.
I always say Water 7 is the best arc in One Piece and the best example of juggling multiple plot lines together and having them all culminate. That said, if helps that the main focus of those plot lines ended up being on the Strawhats. The plot wouldn’t have been done nearly as well if the focus was on Paulie and his betrayal or the Franky family focus like Oda is trying to do with the story now. He knew when to focus on what; Wano just dropped the ball big time given the evil deeds were under Orochi with Kaidou ultimately just being the muscle, so all his henchmen don’t have weight to them. And even if they did, like you mentioned, Oda decided to focus on Oden and his endgame plot instead of focusing on the samurai and what they went through during their time in Wano without Oden. Causing the disconnect. Kinemon should be the next Vivi but I’m the only one who seems to think so and I’m reading between the lines at best tbh.
Wano has a lot of good ideas, but there’s too many ideas and none quite forming correctly in a storytelling way that’s satisfying.
That’s why I wanna read Dressrosa again to be honest. I know people felt the same way when reading that arc here reading weekly that’s being said about Wano but then I see folks outside this forum that read it in one sitting or completely instead of weekly praise it immensely. Though people love Law and Rosiante whereas no one has latch on to any relevant Wano character except for Oden, villain or protagonist.
Then again then again, I never read Skypiea weekly, but even I could tell the Shandians and Enel’s forces are pretty 1D albeit with cool powers outside of Enel himself. And yes it did have cool battles for the crew there wasn’t depth to the story really until the end. Wiper only got interesting once we knew his reasons for doing everything, but that wasn’t until the end of the arc where one of the best flashbacks occurred.
Not saying the story hasn’t been declining in my eyes the last few years, though maybe it’s just the jadedness of these forums despite having good points about the given greviances. It’s just nice to find the good amongst the bad.
Like for example, I loved the Supernova vs Emperor fight way more than I expected to. I also think the Samurai vs Kaidou had its proper moments. Despite pacing issues and wonkiness I loved them all facing off against Kaidou, Kinemon declaring Luffy to be King of the Seas, there being stakes in Kiku losing her arm, and Kinemon’s recent last minute attempt to stop Kaidou with a small flashback of him and Momo trying to act like father/son.
Rambling now. Point is, there’s way too much. A fair amount is being undercooked, paced badly, having odd focus, but maybe it also feels that way due to reading week to week with each chapter being read in a vacuum instead of the story as a whole where maybe reading it all at once will show pacing isn’t that bad as we’re giving it credit for (know Fishman Island flowed a lot better for me when I reread it all at once vs when going through it weekly in real time).
And yes, this is definitely a proper chapter to complain given Nami’s “victory” and how unsatisfying it is, but it’s nice to see where things go before jumping to conclusions (though again, probably a bad example here because most people predicted Nami’s victory to be unsatisfying. They just didn’t realize to what extent)
It’s just nice to find the good amongst the bad.
I liked the naming gag with Zeus.
That actually is super funny.
Oda hasn't gotten bad at making matchups. It's just that this was an Ulti x Zeus fight. Lots of emotional development for the little cloud. Nami… she was there too.
Oda hasn't gotten bad at making matchups. It's just that this was an Ulti x Zeus fight. Lots of emotional development for the little cloud. Nami… she was there too.
This guy got it! Exactly!
This wasn't Nami's moment, it was Zeus'. He got his redemption and made Nami more powerful. Nami's chance to show what she can do with her new weapon-companion is still to come.
Prediction for 1017;
This is Kurozomi O-Tama, wreck the shit out of the SH's my lovely GiftSlaves.
Oda hasn't gotten bad at making matchups. It's just that this was an Ulti x Zeus fight. Lots of emotional development for the little cloud. Nami… she was there too.
This guy got it! Exactly!
This wasn't Nami's moment, it was Zeus'. He got his redemption and made Nami more powerful. Nami's chance to show what she can do with her new weapon-companion is still to come.
Finally some sense.
Uh uh uh nami beat Ulti, uh uh that wasn’t supposed to happen. Oda has lost his abilities.
Who the hell is Ulti?. Unfreaking believable. It wasn’t enough that this Ulti character got tenderized by Big Mom and then beat by the cloud that was part of Big Mom fighting power, no no no Nami should not have done that because Ulti is the Ultimate character and her hype is beyond contestation. And there is no tension.
At least they stopped masochisting Luffy for the moment. Luffy must lose because Kaido’s HYPE is beyond Nature. Why Oda, why are you letting Luffy fight equal against Kaido?. Kaido should be mopping the floor with him. Kaido’s hype. There’s no tension. Just give Luffy the One Piece Oda, I’m done.
This is how many see this manga. If Luffy is not living in Struggle Town (which believe me, he has Struggled enough on this arc and vs Kaido) and the strawhats are not in the helpless situation that they were in saboaty island then the story is no good. There’s no tension, the say. They’re like masochists that want their main characters to get their ass kicked most of the time and somehow win or get away by some struck of luck. They want their HYPED characters who’ve been hyped to the sky for a long time, to remain so, and they want the strawhats to keep being the punching bags that get saved by some Deus Ex Machina AKA Shanks or some luck or some other Hyped character.
Ulti was a nothing that got one shotted by big Mom. It is obvious that her defeat was about making that cloud redeem itself and becoming part of the gang.
But… Most of the complaints aren't about Nami being able to defeat Ulti but quite the opposite, that she wasn't able to do so without someone tenderizing Ulti to the extreme for her first. We wanted Nami to kick more ass, not less.
Also, Ulti is one of the Top 10 strongest fighters in a Yonko crew.. I wouldn't call her a nothing, really, she would have given most of the Strawhats a tough fight.
But… Most of the complaints aren't about Nami being able to defeat Ulti but quite the opposite, that she wasn't able to do so without someone tenderizing Ulti to the extreme for her first. We wanted Nami to kick more ass, not less.
Also, Ulti is one of the Top 10 strongest fighters in a Yonko crew.. I wouldn't call her a nothing, really, she would have given most of the Strawhats a tough fight.
She even did quite well against Luffy. I think, as far as the tobi roppo go, she's one of the toughest. Perhaps close to calamity level.
She even did quite well against Luffy. I think, as far as the tobi roppo go, she's one of the toughest. Perhaps close to calamity level.
Well, we haven't really seen enough from the others to judge, Ulti has gotten by far the most screentime of all the Tobi Roppo. From their depiction early on, I got the feeling that Who's Who and Sasaki at least should be even tougher.
Agreeing with most of the stuff reading and even said this things before… But I have to speak about the emotions... SHs are sidelined... Ok but even the emotional stuff Oda tried to give us through others characters feels lackluster...
Dunno if it is because of the hundred side characters introduced in one arc or that everyone and their mother will get a sob story now. Even villians as Senor Pink.
Besides Zou sob story I really don't give the slightest damn about any of the sob stories post TS... Which is strange as pre skip even now give me some tears in my eyes.
Dressrosa could be so we'll written if it would be a simple flashback of ONE side character to explain the shit he has done. Instead we had at least 4 with Lyrics, Rebecca, Riku and the dwarves... It's not like we haven't got that DoFla is a piece of shit with just one of them
I am actually surprised that you don't complain about how Oda has completely and utterly betrayed Sanji's character in the Wano arc.
Think about it, one of Wano's greatest problem is starvation. Its the one of the major emotional crux for the arc.
Sanji's entire character is based on him being a cook and knowing the hell that is starving to death.
If Oda was still on point as an author. He would have ensured that Sanji as a chef played a vital role in resolving the starvation problem. We could have had scenes of Sanji travelling through Wano and making kick ass food from scraps.
We could have had Sanji use his Newkama ingredient skills to cook food that would bolster the alliance force's strength.
Sanji should have been the one to meet Tama and want to take down Kaidou and Orochi because they are doing one of the things he hates the most.
But nope, we have mediocre writing from Oda.
Sanji barely acknowledges or comments on this situation.
The one time he did, he was cooking food for the wealthy elite of Wano. Like WTF. Why did Oda and his editors think that was a good idea.
Seriously, based on Wano's themes. Wano should have been Sanji's arc, not Zoro's.