Well, there could be a confrontation between Sasaki and Denjiro, which could make Franky's victory look as undeserved too.
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Posted it in the regular thread as well, but what if Nami's and Usopp's treatment isn't a Nami and Usopp thing, but simply a taste of what everyone else is getting in this war?
Could this be it? Oda being afraid to let them beat Yonkou commanders already, but he also wants to at least give us something?
Because as it stands he can reset their fights at any point, either through Onigashima crashing into the capital or Luffy beating Kaido first?
If that happens i'm sure someone will go -Oh you just had unreasonable expectations.
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I really hope that's not what he's doing. A lapse in judgement is one thing, doing that intentionally?
To the entire crew?
For the arc capping off the last 10 years?
It would be pretty bad.
Make em struggle, make em win with some luck and some help, make it clear they're getting through this by the skin of their teeth, but don't have the entire crew be just… ineffectual.
If the crew were slightly smaller I'd almost be okay with it "okay they're getting their warmups then they'll all attack Kaidou and be the 9 shadows" like the fight against Oars, but...
I think it would be terrible.
In a
_"dad, can we have exciting 1 vs. 1's?
"we have exciting 1 vs. 1's at home"
"exciting 1 vs. 1's at home"_
!
…kind of way.
Well, there could be a confrontation between Sasaki and Denjiro, which could make Franky's victory look as undeserved too.
Ohhh, are we playing "ruin a matchup"? My favorite!
Okay, Robin is just a clone and the real her is looking for Poneglyphs. I mean she said her body is conjured so it's our fault for not expecting her to go poof anyway.
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Mr Greg, if I may ask, how do the Japanese feel about this Nami thing? Did they think Oda botched the fight pretty bad? Or are they chill?
Interestingly enough, even a Japanese fan RTd my thoughts and expressed concern for the lack of Nami's role as compared to One Piece in the past. That's not to say its rampant in the community but 99% of the time my English takes aren't touched by the Japanese fans so this seems to have stricken a nerve in part of the fandom.
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I disagree with the argument that Ulti was too strong for Nami, when we've seen Nami overcome gaps of strength/skill or whatever with her trickiness in the past.. Oda is capable of doing it.
And I also share the same concern that Oda may give similar treatment to some of the other fights.
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I don't really worry about other straw hats not being able to defeat their defeat their opponents, what I worry about is that the "fights" will consist in a few sparse snippet and a few pages dedicated to the finisher.
Maybe better than what the weaklings got but still lackluster imo -
So japanese readers usually have a very different take than us? What is a common criticism for OP from japanese fans then?
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The whole "Nami could never beat Ulti, under any circumstances, Ulti is TOO STRONG, In all possible multiverses this is the only way this fight could ever have gone" school of thought just comes across as a total lack of imagination to me. Like, if you're a hyper-fan who considers Oda an infallible super-genius who's playing 4D chess at all times it can become easy to subscribe to the idea of "this is was Oda wrote, so this is the only way it could be, because Oda wrote it like this" where in reality there are literally infinite possibilties for how a devious trickster would fight an impulsive, childish brute.
Nami makes illusions and Ulti charges literally headfirst into things, so maybe use that? Make Ulti charge into things that hurt her, or charge into Pageone even? Especially since shes teamed up with smokescreen pollen and gas-bombs man?
Maybe Nami uses some amped up cooling power to make the floor slippery, again bad for someone whos constantly charging into things?
And then Ulti goes "Aha, but I can jump around!" and then a panting Nami eventually goes "Whats the matter, getting slower? My TRUE plan was to make the environment colder, which a cold-blooded dinosaur like you can't handle!"
And then Ulti goes "Oh yeah, well I can take you on in my regular human form as well!" and then Nami goes "this is what I've been waiting for!" And hits Ulti with a super thunder strike shes been covertly setting up this entire time. Or a super-hailstorm or something.This took me like, five minutes to come up with. Its real basic. But its an alternative
This is not to say that I'm complaining because things didn't happen exactly as I suggested above, that would be the same as saying "things could only ever be like they were in the chapter!". The point is simply that things could have easily been written differently, that Oda could have written a scenario where Nami beat Ulti in a different way. To say that it couldn't, that it HAD to be this way because Oda has reasons, reasons that we don't know so wait and see is to set up an all-purpose defense mindset that can insulate One Piece from any and all negative criticism, ever.
And beyond that just being a really immature and stifling mindset to have, I just…don't know how one can think that of Oda at this point, when every other interview has him saying "This HUGE thing that everyone now takes for granted was actually a spur of the moment idea!"
Note that this is not intended as a dig against Oda - a manga being meticulously planned out until the last detail is a ridiculous expectation to have, and even if that was the case that doesn't make the manga "objectively good". -
Having her fighting Ulti from the get go was a mistake.
Especially when Galette was right there to resume their fight!
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I really hope that's not what he's doing. A lapse in judgement is one thing, doing that intentionally?
To the entire crew?
For the arc capping off the last 10 years?
It would be pretty bad.
Make em struggle, make em win with some luck and some help, make it clear they're getting through this by the skin of their teeth, but don't have the entire crew be just… ineffectual.
If the crew were slightly smaller I'd almost be okay with it "okay they're getting their warmups then they'll all attack Kaidou and be the 9 shadows" like the fight against Oars, but...
There's a lot of conditions that led to Nami and Usopp being the way it was, first of all, it's 2 of the Weakling Trio vs 2 Tobi Roppo. Whereas you have the Black Maria fight where it's, say, Brook and Robin vs Black Maria. Or Franky vs Sasaki where Franky mostly had the upper hand at most points and was consistently damaging Sasaki.
I think it's just too early to jump the gun and say all the fights will be like this when the Nami and Usopp fight has a lot of special conditions to it. I'm more than miffed at the way it turned out, because it's a case of "less is more", all Oda really had to do for me is NOT do a lot of the actions he did around 1013ish. But I'm one of the ones who thought we got plenty of solid content before then from the fight, there are some where that also would not have been enough.
I've been thinking in my head that this is a very very difficult situation to fix. One of the only ways I came up with that would patch it up is Page-one HAS to wake up and become the second opponent for Nami and Usopp, and they defeat him. The damage would be done with Ulti, but at least they would get another win on an opponent of basically the same caliber. I dunno. This just never had to be like this. It's a case of Oda valuing chaos over the type of fights he knows we expect.
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The people who came at me gnashing their teeth and jumping on the train for the lulz (I actually have a screenshot of a dude who said, "I didn't read anything he wrote, I just saw everyone jumping on him lol") were mostly late-teen to 20-something men.
Interestingly enough, the people who didn't come at me in poor faith, mostly walked away understanding my point if not in agreement.
And perhaps most interestingly, 100% of the people who contacted me publicly or privately and thanked me for including it….
…are women. And of the ones who mentioned their support publicly? They were ignored by the white knights.
So…..can I see some citations for those supposed comments and things like that? Just curious since that is a very specific narrative that you are painting here...
And I don't really get how you can take "Nami can't beat Ulti in terms of pure strength" to "Nami cannot ever beat Ulti because she is a woman and therefore weak". And from the sounds of it, from Greg's own twitter post, he seems to agree that Nami can't beat Ulti in terms of pure strength, while also acknowledging that Nami has never been a physical fighter and uses tricks and his own way to win the battles. And I'm assuming that the former idea is what is bringing the "misogyny", while the latter part is what is being seen as a more accurate reading of Nami's character...even though both of them don't really contradict anything.
And yes, you can definitely criticize the way this entire fight played out at the end.
But what I'm super interested is the "misogyny" part of this entire thing. I don't even care about the actual fight nor have any real strong feelings on it one way or another but the thing that actually got me interested is that particular aspect. Would be definitely interested in reading, blacked out and user's info removed of course, those comments.
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So…..can I see some citations for those supposed comments and things like that? Just curious since that is a very specific narrative that you are painting here...
And I don't really get how you can take "Nami can't beat Ulti in terms of pure strength" to "Nami cannot ever beat Ulti because she is a woman and therefore weak". And from the sounds of it, from Greg's own twitter post, he seems to agree that Nami can't beat Ulti in terms of pure strength, while also acknowledging that Nami has never been a physical fighter and uses tricks and his own way to win the battles. And I'm assuming that the former idea is what is bringing the "misogyny", while the latter part is what is being seen as a more accurate reading of Nami's character...even though both of them don't really contradict anything.
And yes, you can definitely criticize the way this entire fight played out at the end.
But what I'm super interested is the "misogyny" part of this entire thing. I don't even care about the actual fight nor have any real strong feelings on it one way or another but the thing that actually got me interested is that particular aspect. Would be definitely interested in reading, blacked out and user's info removed of course, those comments.
You really shouldn't ask people to reveal private conversations, censored or not. Massive violation of trust (that's why they're private).
I personally see no reason to think Greg is lying. I've been privately contacted to be thanked before as well, in a discussion from some time ago. Just try not to be an asshole and actually speak up for people that actually need it, and maybe someday it will happen to you as well. Oda the billionaire writer doesn't need a defense force and I think he would appreciate criticism of his work.
And it's not hard to see Nami's victory as mysogynistic either. In the end, she did nothing but extend her baton to a dying Zeus, and was granted a magic, powerful weapon out of luck. When it came to the actual confrontation with Ulti, she did not employ tactics, traps, misdirection or anything we know she could do (all were present in her fights with Kalifa and Doublefinger), she just let a cloud/Big Mom/Tama fix her mistakes. She was pretty much carried to victory, which is not something you'd expect from any of the male characters.
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just comes across as a total lack of imagination to me.
Daz, thank you. Tell that to a powerscaler and they'll look at you like you have six heads.
So…..can I see some citations for those supposed comments and things like that?
Just curious
But what I'm super interested is the "misogyny" part of this entire thing.
Would be definitely interested in reading, blacked out and user's info removed of course, those comments.
the thing that actually got me interested is that particular aspect
You sound super interested in it so I don't think you'll need my help to get you motivated. You'll find the attitudes sprinkled throughout the threads, RTs, comments on RTs, etc. You'll also find them in unrelated discussions. I wish you luck! Even if I could, I'm not delving back into that toxicity for my own mental health or would you deny me that?
And from the sounds of it, from Greg's own twitter post, he seems to agree that Nami can't beat Ulti in terms of pure strength, while also acknowledging that Nami has never been a physical fighter and uses tricks and his own way to win the battles. And I'm assuming that the former idea is what is bringing the "misogyny", while the latter part is what is being seen as a more accurate reading of Nami's character…even though both of them don't really contradict anything.
Ulti is stronger than Nami. By…lol...FAR.
Characters can be stronger than Nami.
Fans can say that Nami would lose a battle of strength. There's nothing wrong with that.
Fans can say that Nami is weaker than a given opponent. There's nothing wrong with that.
Fans can say that Nami would lose a contest of strength because she's weak. There's nothing wrong with that.
Saying that, "Nami would lose to XYZ because she's weak," while fans are certainly free to say it, it's a comment that's problematic on a number of levels.
At its most basic innocent level, it's just amateurish. There's zero creativity in there. It's the most base-level powerscaler assumption.
A is weaker than B therefore A must lose.
Must lose based…on what? Strength? Is strength the only thing that matters in a battle? So just disregard speed, weapons, maneuverability, field advantage, backup, battle prowess, knowledge, etc. ?
Nami can't win with tricks.
Duh-doy? But Nami is beyond tricks and despite multiple tact upgrades Oda has never fully explored the potential of her tacts post-timeskip let alone even touch upon the basis of how it works, weather sorcery. She spent two years learning and using weather magic so that she could…farts clouds that shoot lightning? The point is, not only is there unexplored potential that has been established (that is to say comparing OP to itself) by Oda and this was a grudge match for Nami with stakes and emotion involved. It was, simply put the ideal spot for Oda to explore new potential with her. Potential that doesn't make her physically powerful, but a threat to an unbeatable enemy.
Now, back to "Nami would lose to XYZ because she's weak," we established that on one level it comes from an amateurish view of the series.
On its most vile level, it stems from this mindset, "If a woman can't beat someone because of strength, she can't win."
That comment completely disregards any of the many other capabilities and talents a woman has. It relegates a woman's potential entirely to strength alone and that is the attitude I outlined as 'the worst'.
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For a forum about OP, ppl here are more chill against critiques to OP or Oda in general. Try to critique OP in any other social medias and you immediately get hounded from all sides by "fans" lol.
Like, I've been reading OP since Arlong Park came in anime in my country, an old fan. There is a time when my life revolving about OP (Marineford era)… but even then, I criticize OP if I read something that doesn't sit well with me personally. That's because I love OP.
So I understand what Greg has been trying to do: to bravely criticize a series that he loves with all of his heart in the hive of scum and villainy that is social medias. Keep up the good work, Greg!
This forum's penchant for honest critique is one of the best things about it and also the reason why it's not full of hyper-activity. It has never overlooked the flaws of any of the big series and always fostered a greater depth of conversation than x is stronger than y, which is why I'm happy this conversation about the greater fanbases worst readings of the series is happening. That's a conversation worth having and Greg's comment is worth exploring for those who agree and disagree with it. The kneejerk reaction is also so weird to me, given that Oda has really delved into unexpected complexities with the Wano arc in particular. I don't think any other portion of One Piece has provided a greater distillation of Oda's thoughts on gender and the negative and positive traits of femininity and masculinity. In fact, I'm on the verge of rereading the entire arc with this in mind.
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I remember when just before the timeskip weatheria technology Nami spent 2 years studying was considered to be big deal and that weather balls were said to be dangerous enough to plunge the world into chaos if it fell into the wrong hands (words for words chapter 596), all for it to end up being reduced as glorified party tricks :ninja:.
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Another issue with this is just how blindingly obvious this is to avoid. Just try to imagine this happening during Khalifa.
"Hmmm, Khalifa is too physically strong for Nami, how do I resolve this?"
Lucci comes down from his fight with Luffy, impales Khalifa with Shigan for some reason
Nami who was previously having trouble now easily disposes of Khalifa's half-dead body with one Thunder Lance Tempo
Audience:
Not trying to say every audience member is like that about this, that's far from the case taking the whole Internet as a whole, but yeah still, I think this is the most I've ever seen people call something out from Oda, including myself. And it's just so obvious to avoid as a writer. It's just such an instant tension drainer, and moment deflater.
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As a Nami fan I’ve pretty much consigned myself to taking any scraps I can at this point. Things will never be as good as they were the first 400 chapters, but they also will not be as horrible as the Breast Band Girl era from Fishman Island to Dressrosa.
I would like her to use the climatact upgrades even once though. What was even the point of the nyoibo addition besides being able to put it away between her breasts now?
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Nami beating Ulti like that is best course of action because Nami simply wasn't up on par. Tricks don't work all the time (See Doflamingo vs Law). At least Oda didn't magically have Nami overwhelm Ulti like he had Zoro scar Kaido (lmao) or other atrocious things he's done in this arc.
Oda has dropped the ball with many things in this arc, Nami isn't one of them. Nami vs Ulti's biggest problem is that it was spread out for too many chapters.
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Another issue with this is just how blindingly obvious this is to avoid. Just try to imagine this happening during Khalifa.
"Hmmm, Khalifa is too physically strong for Nami, how do I resolve this?"
Lucci comes down from his fight with Luffy, impales Khalifa with Shigan for some reason
Nami who was previously having trouble now easily disposes of Khalifa's half-dead body with one Thunder Lance Tempo
Audience:
http://media.ign.com/games/image/article/738/738102/gaijin4koma_peersblog_1200684654.jpgNot trying to say every audience member is like that about this, that's far from the case taking the whole Internet as a whole, but yeah still, I think this is the most I've ever seen people call something out from Oda, including myself. And it's just so obvious to avoid as a writer. It's just such an instant tension drainer, and moment deflater.
Wouldn't this imply that BM had no reason to attack Ulti since you're using Lucci as an example? There's a whole setup to earning Zeus that led up to this where Nami and Lola connected, BM is supposedly this heartless monster that can never show a gentler side, and Ulti being a stepping stone while also showing resilience because not everyone steps to BM or gets back up from her attacks.
All 3 of their dispositions are highlighted with Tama as a catalyst and it's getting dismissed in this discussion because "we didn't get our fight and it's a slap in the face to the characters". When it's the opposite and Oda is choosing to highlight their characters with the fight as a backdrop and not the star of the show.
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@Joy:
Nami beating Ulti like that is best course of action because Nami simply wasn't up on par. Tricks don't work all the time (See Doflamingo vs Law). At least Oda didn't magically have Nami overwhelm Ulti like he had Zoro scar Kaido (lmao) or other atrocious things he's done in this arc.
Oda has dropped the ball with many things in this arc, Nami isn't one of them. Nami vs Ulti's biggest problem is that it was spread out for too many chapters.
Completely agree.
And I am also pretty positive that had Nami beaten Ulti people would be also be complaining. -
Nami is weak, needs help/plot against tough opponent. News at 11.
Usopp is also weak, needs help/plot against tough opponent. News at 11.
Complaining for the sake of complaining.
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Honestly all you have to do to make everyone happy is to rearrange the sequence of events a bit and you can have Nami defeat Ulti without it being either cheap or outlandish.
Deal with Zeus sooner, and have Kidd arrive to save Nami and Usopp before BM defeats Ulti. Then you can have Nami fight Ulti with Zeus-baton and no powerscaler could complain how Nami is too weak since she would get a weapon capable of hurting her.
And the rest can enjoy Nami win a high stakes difficult battle thru trickery and tactics.
The thing that baffles me is that I feel that something like that was indeed Odas plan but at the last moment he decided he wanted to be unpredictable or rush the plot along…. And we ended up with the worst of all scenarios
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This post is deleted!
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I'm puzzled we had Usopp and Nami paired together for over 25 chapters yet we barely saw any teamwork. C'mon, I'm sure weather and plants could have made for some good combo
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When it's the opposite and Oda is choosing to highlight their characters with the fight as a backdrop and not the star of the show.
That would be totally fine and a good route to take!
If it hadn't been literally 600 chapters and 15 years since the last time Nami got a non-fodder fight. (And even longer for Robin!) Usopp isn't as bad off, it's only been 250 chapters and six years since he sniped Sugar.
And its very likely to be until the end of the series in another who knows how many years before they get to the big finale where Oda is willing to give every crewmember a fighgt.
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What I'm most sad about is the lack of agency for Nami. Everything she achieved felt like a stroke of luck.
And I just don't get how we could have all these set ups and then they fall through like Oda kept changing his mind.
Usopp and Nami vs Page One and Ulti! Nope, doesn't happen.
Nami is mad cause Tama got hit, she's gonna stand up to… no just keep running as Big Mom deals with it.
A powerful cloud wants to join forces, the cat burglar is gonna steal hi- no, it's all done by accident!
Finally it's Ulti vs Nami. Let's see some actio.... and she misses and Zeus does all the work.Like I'm overjoyed Nami has gotten all this focus and in general I love Onigashi, but this fght wasn't handled well. It's gonna be interesting to see how the other fights play out, if this kinda treatment will be exclusive to Nami, if Robin will also get it, or everyone.
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Not only Nami is weaker than Ulti but the flying six member is also a bad match up for her. Ulti being a ancient zoan can really tank attacks while Nami is a glass cannon. The paramercias Doublefinger and Kalifa never came out as high durability types.
"Nami can't beat this character in a test of strength" isn't sexist.
"Nami can't beat this character under any circumstances" is kind of amateurish, but still neutral.
"Nami can't beat this character under any circumstances because she's a weak girl and has no other talents" is absolutely misogynist.
The last opinion is the one being criticized.
…especially in a genre entirely about heroes overcoming enemies that are stronger than them.
"Nami can't beat this character under any circumstances"
She beat Ulti under a lot of conventient circumstances and with other characters always saving her butt in the last second. So under certain circumstances she could indeed beat Ulti as show last chapter.
"Nami can't beat this character under any circumstances because she's a weak girl and has no other talents"
You make this imaginary person sound more like a Nami hater than a "woman hater"
"Nami can't beat this female character under any circumstances because she's a weak girl and has no other talents while the other is a strong talended girl"
Calling this misogyny stills sounds like a non sequitur.
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This thread is becoming like that tweet thread.
"Nobody said that", but you're here defending that stance and admitting you are 1 of them lol
It's like you want to be able to have that stance and not be called misogynistic. Best to stand by it and own it.
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Why does Nami's gender even matter in this issue? Can't we look at her as a character and not just see her as a woman?
I don't think that Usopp can beat Ulti. Does it matter that he is a man?
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This thread is becoming like that tweet thread.
"Nobody said that", but you're here defending that stance and admitting you are 1 of them lol
It's like you want to be able to have that stance and not be called misogynistic. Best to stand by it and own it.
Huh because that stance is not misogynistic.
Another issue with this is just how blindingly obvious this is to avoid. Just try to imagine this happening during Khalifa.
"Hmmm, Khalifa is too physically strong for Nami, how do I resolve this?"
Lucci comes down from his fight with Luffy, impales Khalifa with Shigan for some reason
Nami who was previously having trouble now easily disposes of Khalifa's half-dead body with one Thunder Lance Tempo
Audience:This would be more comparable to the Absalom fight but in the Kalifa stituation there was moment Monster Chopper appeared and kinda helped Nami.
Why does Nami's gender even matter in this issue? Can't we look at her as a character and not just see her as a woman?
I don't think that Usopp can beat Ulti. Does it matter that he is a man?
Sane.
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Not only Nami is weaker than Ulti but the flying six member is also a bad match up for her. Ulti being a ancient zoan can really tank attacks while Nami is a glass cannon. The paramercias Doublefinger and Kalifa never came out as high durability types.
She beat Ulti under a lot of conventient circumstances and with other characters always saving her butt in the last second. So under certain circumstances she could indeed beat Ulti as show last chapter.
Then… maybe Oda should have had Ulti stay down from Big Mom's attack? This would have feel all the same for Nami's character.
I dunno how anyone can consider Nami "beat" Ulti when she had zero agency during the whole confrontation. Even the finisher she failed to land it.
Having support and outside help is one thing (Luffy tend to have these things going for him), having virtually 0 agency in your own "victory" is another one.
No matter how I see it this is Big Mom and Zeus victory.
Heck Nami's reaction to her supposed win wasn't even shown like Oda usually does. -
Then… maybe Oda should have had Ulti stay down from Big Mom's attack? This would have feel all the same for Nami's character.
I dunno how anyone can consider Nami "beat" Ulti when she had zero agency during the whole confrontation. Even the finisher she failed to land it.
Having support and outside help is one thing (Luffy tend to have these things going for him), having virtually 0 agency in your own "victory" is another one.
No matter how I see it this is Big Mom and Zeus victory.
Heck Nami's reaction to her supposed win wasn't even shown like Oda usually does.Nami's agency comes when she chooses to save Zeus' life. You give Zues part of the victory, but that wouldn't be possible without Nami's actions.
I think a Strawhat helping someone in need and teaming up to defeat a strong opponent is just such a One Piece action. I find it more satisfying than Nami getting a victory in a 1 v 1 just because Oda made another female antagonist act incompetent.
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Huh because that stance is not misogynistic.
This would be more comparable to the Absalom fight but in the Kalifa stituation there was moment Monster Chopper appeared and kinda helped Nami.
The 2 characters that are mostly discussed as Nami's big fights were Zala and Kalifa. Both like Ulti, physically stronger. Yet, it's talked about differently here.
It's like people want Nami to do the same outwitting every fight. When Oda doesn't go that repetitive route, it's an issue.
Yes, it is misogynistic. You're defending a misogynistic stance, while calling it an imaginary person, and not noticing you're only defending it because you don't want to fall under the label that sounds like your own rhetoric The shoe fits and you don't want to be caught in it. Yet, you come out to expose yourself anyway.
Luffy just beat someone that was stronger and faster than him in Kata. Basically befriending Kata for him to stay down and before that, go against what is the tradition in pirate fights and impale himself. It's the same as Nami befriending Zeus and it paid off.
They both earned it and it highlighted a way to overcome conflicts without it being purely physical or outthinking the opponent. I'll stick by what Mihawk says because he seems like he knows a thing about being competent in a fight considering this world.
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Then… maybe Oda should have had Ulti stay down from Big Mom's attack? This would have feel all the same for Nami's character.
I dunno how anyone can consider Nami "beat" Ulti when she had zero agency during the whole confrontation. Even the finisher she failed to land it.
Having support and outside help is one thing (Luffy tend to have these things going for him), having virtually 0 agency in your own "victory" is another one.
No matter how I see it this is Big Mom and Zeus victory.
Heck Nami's reaction to her supposed win wasn't even shown like Oda usually does."Then… maybe Oda should have had Ulti stay down from Big Mom's attack?"
Yes he absolutely should. Another option would be using 3 or 4 weaker strawhats vs Ulti and Paypay instead of just 2.
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Nami's agency comes when she chooses to save Zeus' life. You give Zues part of the victory, but that wouldn't be possible without Nami's actions.
I think a Strawhat helping someone in need and teaming up to defeat a strong opponent is just such a One Piece action. I find it more satisfying than Nami getting a victory in a 1 v 1 just because Oda made another female antagonist act incompetent.
That's good on paper but it's not like th "Thieving Cat" Nami even "stole" Zeus on purpose this time, it was purely accidental. Even that Oda couldn't give it to her.
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That's good on paper but it's not like th "Thieving Cat" Nami even "stole" Zeus on purpose this time, it was purely accidental. Even that Oda couldn't give it to her.
She was abandoned by Zeus and had no obligation to help him. Should've let him get eaten completely. Instead, she went against running away and treating Zeus how he treated her and gave him a last minute effort. She didn't know what would happen, but she went against those 2 crucial factors.
Ended up steal the heart and soul of a Yonkou that is partly motivated by greed. This is the furthest from accidental. Nami knew she couldn't abandon Zeus. She was an orphan herself and Zeus was clearly ousted from his siblings and Mama.
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It's like people want Nami to do the same outwitting every fight.
It's like people want expect Luffy to punch his way through every fight. Oh, wait, that's his fucking style.
When Oda doesn't go that repetitive route, it's an issue.
So I either cheer at this wet fart of a "fight" or I'm a misonynistic.
Got it.
Very insightful.Yes, it is misogynistic. You're defending a misogynistic stance, while calling it an imaginary person
Imagine white knighting for a piece of paper only to get the "privilege" of calling randos misogynists.
Nami is a weak fighter. Change her name, her gender, her aspect. Draw her as a sheep with both genitalia, for all that matter. If the outcome of the encounter with Ulti remains the same, that Nami character is weak. There's no two ways about it.
Oda doesn't want her to become a powerhouse? Fine. Not all SHs have to be. Usopp, most likely, will never defeat anybody without having to massively cheat. I am ok with that - as long as whatever route Oda takes to that victory is engaging, fun, and/or creative. All we've seen between Nami-Usopp and Ulti-Pay was the antithesis of creative or fun. That's the entire issue. Drop the you-can't-critique-her-as-female-character masquerade. -
It's like people want expect Luffy to punch his way through every fight. Oh, wait, that's his fucking style.
Lufy just befriended Kata who was clearly stronger than him, so it's not his only method. That's incorrect. Glad Oda didn't go the repetitive route just to give fan service for people that ignore the character's skills away from punch, kick, dodge, lighting.
So I either cheer at this wet fart of a "fight" or I'm a misonynistic.
Got it.
Very insightful.Lash out all you want, as long as you're admitting it. The way you're phrasing it, you don't have it in you to criticize w/o being misogynistic and that is telling. I believe there is a way.
Imagine white knighting for a piece of paper only to get the "privilege" of calling randos misogynists.
Nami is a weak fighter. Change her name, her gender, her aspect. Draw her as a sheep with both genitalia, for all that matter. If the outcome of the encounter with Ulti remains the same, that Nami character is weak. There's no two ways about it.
Oda doesn't want her to become a powerhouse? Fine. Not all SHs have to be. Usopp, most likely, will never defeat anybody without having to massively cheat. I am ok with that - as long as whatever route Oda takes to that victory is engaging, fun, and/or creative. All we've seen between Nami-Usopp and Ulti-Pay was the antithesis of creative or fun. That's the entire issue. Drop the you-can't-critique-her-as-female-character masquerade.It is what it is. Whether I called it or not, many of you are tagging yourself with the label by putting your head out the window when no one named you. Basically telling on yourself, then getting pissed about it. Not my problem.
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She was abandoned by Zeus and had no obligation to help him. Should've let him get eaten completely. Instead, she went against running away and treating Zeus how he treated her and gave him a last minute effort. She didn't know what would happen, but she went against those 2 crucial factors.
Ended up steal the heart and soul of a Yonkou that is partly motivated by greed. This is the furthest from accidental. Nami knew she couldn't abandon Zeus. She was an orphan herself and Zeus was clearly ousted from his siblings and Mama.
When you sell like it that, it's not that bad. Still find the execution lacking but whatever.
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Lufy just befriended Kata who was clearly stronger than him, so it's not his only method. That's incorrect. Glad Oda didn't go the repetitive route just to give fan service for people that ignore the character's skills away from punch, kick, dodge, lighting.
That's all Luffy can do. Punch and win people over with his personality. Even Crocodile fell for Luffy. That he got to befriend a powerful someone from a Yonko crew is not unexpected, is not "Oda not going the repetitive route", it's Oda sticking to it.
Comparatively, Nami can steal and outsmart people. She kinda maybe used the first ability in her "victory" against Ulti by stealing Zeus last arc. But she failed to outsmart any dino puppy.
Lash out all you want, as long as you're admitting it.
many of you are tagging yourself with the label by putting your head out the window when no one named you. Basically telling on yourself, then getting pissed about it. Not my problem.I do believe you have a problem (namely by sticking to certain mediatic victimistic niches), but that is going OT so I'll can it. Still: wow.
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You guys are all over the place with this discussion, huh? It's wild.
I guess most people in this thread doesn't even remember what Greg's original point was anymore.As the discussion is going right now, I just don't agree with the strategy of completely disregarding an important piece of information for the sake of ignoring a topic you don't want to look at. In this case, Nami's gender, how it influences her character, how she is treated in battle situations and what it means to be a female character in a work aimed for teenage boys in Japan.
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And it's not hard to see Nami's victory as mysogynistic either
And yet even Greg already said that he wasn't even referring to Oda or the series with that.
He was referring to the actual fanbase. And that's what I'm talking about too.
You really shouldn't ask people to reveal private conversations, censored or not. Massive violation of trust (that's why they're private).
I mean, when those private conversations are being used as a way to bring forth a very specific and very convenient narrative then it requires a bit more than….words.
Just try not to be an asshole and actually speak up for people that actually need it
….Do you even know what I'm asking or even referring to?
I have no reason or even gave a shit about defending the series or whatever. The series isn't even that relevant to the point as well as what I was asking for/am interested in.
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That's all Luffy can do. Punch and win people over with his personality. Even Crocodile fell for Luffy. That he got to befriend a powerful someone from a Yonko crew is not unexpected, is not "Oda not going the repetitive route", it's Oda sticking to it.
Comparatively, Nami can steal and outsmart people. She kinda maybe used the first ability in her "victory" against Ulti by stealing Zeus last arc. But she failed to outsmart any dino puppy.
I do believe you have a problem (namely by sticking to certain mediatic victimistic niches), but that is going OT so I'll can it. Still: wow.
The first time she "stole" Zeus, it was a weak attachment. She feeds him. Oda used Ulti, BM, and essentially Tama to establish a stronger bond/robbery.
It's not a "kinda". She did it twice and the final heist was in the middle of a war that is chaotic where almost every corner turned is another enemy.
How is Nami supposed to pull off the outsmarting and ingenuity in this mess? Would the Kalifa and Zala fights work in this chaos? They were in isolated areas for a reason.
Oda escaped being repetitive and made all parties look good. Ulti got up from multiple attacks, Nami befriended someone in her own way and stole them from a Yonkou, BM is consistently sticking to her principles and smashing anyone that betrays that.
You're referring to problems as if you didn't come out to own your misogyny while denying it, then backpedaling back to it. Your problem is more chaotic than the war if you want to go that route.
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When you sell like it that, it's not that bad. Still find the execution lacking but whatever.
Well the problem is that the scene where it happens wasn't as impactful as when Nami originally recruited Zeus back in Whole Cake. We didn't get to really feel that she had felt a connection with Zeus as a newly-minted orphan because we never felt that they had a genuine connection in the first place.
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Well the problem is that the scene where it happens wasn't as impactful as when Nami originally recruited Zeus back in Whole Cake. We didn't get to really feel that she had felt a connection with Zeus as a newly-minted orphan because we never felt that they had a genuine connection in the first place.
This is solid and fair critique. Thank you.
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@p:
You guys are all over the place with this discussion, huh? It's wild.
I guess most people in this thread doesn't even remember what Greg's original point was anymore.As the discussion is going right now, I just don't agree with the strategy of completely disregarding an important piece of information for the sake of ignoring a topic you don't want to look at. In this case, Nami's gender, how it influences her character, how she is treated in battle situations and what it means to be a female character in a work aimed for teenage boys in Japan.
So saying Nami can't beat Big Mom is also misogynistic? If I say Usopp can't beat Akainu does that make me racist because he's black? Thats the dangerous way of thinking like this.
It was shown that Big Mom can beat Ulti. Did it matter that Big Mom is a female? Is that why she won? No, some characters, regardless of gender, race and age have different abilities and those can be taken into consideration when contemplating which character you think can defeat another.
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Not only Nami is weaker than Ulti but the flying six member is also a bad match up for her. Ulti being a ancient zoan can really tank attacks while Nami is a glass cannon. The paramercias Doublefinger and Kalifa never came out as high durability types.
"Nami can't beat this character under any circumstances"
She beat Ulti under a lot of conventient circumstances and with other characters always saving her butt in the last second. So under certain circumstances she could indeed beat Ulti as show last chapter.
"Nami can't beat this character under any circumstances because she's a weak girl and has no other talents"
You make this imaginary person sound more like a Nami hater than a "woman hater"
"Nami can't beat this female character under any circumstances because she's a weak girl and has no other talents while the other is a strong talended girl"
Calling this misogyny stills sounds like a non sequitur.
The problem is, did Nami do anything significant against Ulti?
It doesn't even have to be about the final attack, but the whole "fight". There were at least three moments where Ulti had Nami caught off-guard. Nami could've done something to escape those times, but no, she was saved damsel in distress style by a third-party that was conveniently nearby. First time, Tama bailed her out. Second time, Big Mom bailed her out. Third time, Zeus bailed her out, by fixing her mistake. You could've rectified this by, say, having Nami insult Big Mom while Ulti was holding her, causing Big Mom to shoot an attack aimed at Nami, but that ends up hitting Ulti instead while Nami dodges. Another case in the third fight, Ulti grabs Nami and Zeus becomes hesitant to attack because Nami is in the target's arms, so Nami makes a bluff and tells Zeus to attack anyway, forcing Ulti's hand as she needs to release Nami in order to jump away. In those examples, Nami would be using intelligence to escape deadly situations instead of sheer luck. She would have agency. Even someone like Mansherry had agency in Dressrosa, where she actually bothered to use her ability to heal people around the island, something that actually played a role in stopping the birdcage.
Like, just look at Luffy vs. Usopp. Usopp clearly couldn't take on Luffy, but he was still able to trick, misdirect and even hurt him with his signature wit and resourcefulness. In this case, Usopp demonstrated that he could at least fight back in an unwinnable fight through prep time and "cheating". A fight where a hero loses doesn't need to be unsatisfying. Luffy vs. Magellan for example, where Luffy lost badly, but was still capable of giving Magellan trouble by exploiting his surroundings.
Nami didn't stand a chance against Ulti, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't have pulled some trickery to at least gain a strategic advantage, even if she couldn't win in an outright confrontation. Oda did this just fine with Chopper vs. Queen. Chopper didn't hurt Queen, but was still able to stall him enough for Sanji to arrive and prevent more casualties.
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So saying Nami can't beat Big Mom is also misogynistic? If I say Usopp can't beat Akainu does that make me racist because he's black? Thats the dangerous way of thinking like this.
It was shown that Big Mom can beat Ulti. Did it matter that Big Mom is a female? Is that why she won? No, some characters, regardless of gender, race and age have different abilities and those can be taken into consideration when contemplating which character you think can defeat another.
You're missing the point. The problem with Nami vs. Ulti is that Nami had her victory handed to her in a platter.
In the end, the only thing Nami had to do to win was feel bad for a cloud. It is sorta mysogynistic because the amount of effort she had to pull for her victory was comparatively very little.
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You'll find the attitudes sprinkled throughout the threads, RTs, comments on RTs, etc. You'll also find them in unrelated discussions.
If I did find them, I wouldn't really be asking about them.
I'm not delving back into that toxicity for my own mental health or would you deny me that?
Sounds very convenient.
I guess, you wanted to reach wider audience by exposing a certain part of the fanbase….without much of anything to show for it. But ok, I guess.
It was, simply put the ideal spot for Oda to explore new potential with her. Potential that doesn't make her physically powerful, but a threat to an unbeatable enemy.
And Oda didn't use that potential for whatever reason.
On its most vile level, it stems from this mindset, "If a woman can't beat someone because of strength, she can't win."
That comment completely disregards any of the many other capabilities and talents a woman has. It relegates a woman's potential entirely to strength alone and that is the attitude I outlined as 'the worst'.
That's where you are losing me.
I haven't seen anyone argue whatever you are even imply here based on what I've read across this website, lot of posts in your twitter, and reddit spoiler/chapter thread, and even some Youtube videos.
The worst part is the fact that you yourself are even acknowledging the points that lots of people bring up while also talking about how Oda didn't fully take advantage on trying to explore Nami's way of fighting against Ulti.
Like maybe it's just me but there is a HUGE jump in your logic that ultimately doesn't make sense given what I've seen so far.
But well, I don't suppose I'm going to get anything out of this.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It is what it is. Whether I called it or not, many of you are tagging yourself with the label by putting your head out the window when no one named you. Basically telling on yourself, then getting pissed about it. Not my problem.
Thanks for those middle-school lessons of psychology.
They seem….very ...ah interesting lol.
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Sounds very convenient.
I guess, you wanted to reach wider audience by exposing a certain part of the fanbase….without much of anything to show for it. But ok, I guess.
Way to come off as an insensitive asshole.
Greg doesn't need to expose anything. You're doing that yourself.
I've been in enough fanbases to know the vast majority of fans are shit and not worth dedicated time arguing. Mostly because their minds are already set in point of view, making the arguing useless.