Never cared much about this Kurd people, so I know shit about them, but this conversation kinda makes me want to read an entire Wiki article about them.
Random News Article Discussion II
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Israel and the US is supposed to be supporting the Kurdish independence
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Israel and the US is supposed to be supporting the Kurdish independence
The US was supposed have supported the Kurds in Iraq as far back as the Gulf War when Bush said he'd help/support them in return for their help (guides, info on people & places ect). But once war was over, they were left to hang dry and were vulnerable to retaliations for helping the USA. Some who went to great lengths to help then applied for visas to come to the USA but were denied, trapped in hostile lands then were assassinated
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So… have the Iraqi kurds been completely screwed once again by their western allies in their quest for independence?
I'm not sure how they can be screwed here unless some sort of promise or deal was made that wasn't followed up on.
The heavier anti-ISIS western cooperation with Kurds you might be thinking of is in Syria, which is with a different faction/force on top of being another country as well.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Israel and the US is supposed to be supporting the Kurdish independence
"Supposed to" in what sense?
Israel very likely covertly supports them, no doubt really happy to have an ally in the area that would dependably have similar enemies.I think previous US administrations (both Bush and Obama) had sympathies with them but very limited actual grounds to support full independence without it being a huge mess.
The Trump administration who the fuck knows. Trump himself obviously has no idea about any of this, and one can only guess what the ghouls and morons under him have in mind.The sticky wicket in virtually every case remains Turkey.
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@Monkey:
I'm not sure how they can be screwed here unless some sort of promise or deal was made that wasn't followed up on.
The heavier anti-ISIS western cooperation with Kurds you might be thinking of is in Syria, which is with a different faction/force on top of being another country as well.No, not thinking about Syria, I know very well what I'm talking about. Not to mention that the SDF has become a wider coalition of forces. Heavily kurdish, yeah, but they try to keep things multicultural (at least in presentation) in order to have a shot at international recognition as the democratic opposition to Assad, I'd guess. I was talking more along the lines of what Katzztar said.
The sticky wicket in virtually every case remains Turkey.
Sigh, it seems like it…
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No, not thinking about Syria, I know very well what I'm talking about. Not to mention that the SDF has become a wider coalition of forces. Heavily kurdish, yeah, but they try to keep things multicultural (at least in presentation) in order to have a shot at international recognition as the democratic opposition to Assad, I'd guess. I was talking more along the lines of what Katzztar said.
Katzztar is talking about stuff that went down with the Gulf War.
Sigh, it seems like it…
Trump has really overshadowed how such a crucial geo-influential country like Turkey has fallen even worse into the hands of a grasping buffoon.
Not that any Turkish administration has ever dealt well with the Kurds though…--- Update From New Post Merge ---
if it was not a land in 4 different countries and didn't have as much oil they would have their own land long time ago
Iran is now hardly against Iraq Kurdistan because they want to keep Iraq as ally and also they believe isreal is supporting them and there are Kurds in Iran aswell
You have to keep this in mind in that city there was not only Kurds there were also Arab As well it's not easy to draw a border for KurdistanIn Iranian news, the Supreme Leader has made a rare wise and just statement that much of the world can agree upon.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/iranian-leader-urges-europe-to-defy-mentally-retarded-trump-over-nuclear-deal-36239580.html -
Trump to challenge Khamanei to round of Celebrity Jeopardy; immediately backs out when Trudeau asks to be included.
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Ali Khamenei… welcome to the Resistance.
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The crazy shia-pope theocratic dictator who believes in mischievous Djinn irl was once the more absurd world leader.
And he is in fact not. -
I bet he is enjoying trumps presidency trump is everything Iranian hardliners wanted an American president look like
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also did you know trump called Persian gulf Arabian gulf in the speech about iran
That is the best way to trigger all Iranians -
I really do not understand Rajoy. What a way to create a real mess. What a way to go into the history books man.
I'm not pessimistic in nature but I don't see this turning out well , not for Spain , not for Europe.
In reality it's not far fetched to see the European nation states implode into it's regions. Europe of the regions it will become. -
a provision that allows the central government to suspend the autonomy of the Catalan regional administration.
Oops, revolution is going backwards there. If I read correctly, so long the local president or local congress don't formally declare independence, things would go violently smooth for the central government.
I just can't believe how many celebrities that are supposed to be against 'rape-culture' knew about Weinstein and said nothing for so long -_-
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I knew that Italy was a bad case, but geez.
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I knew that Italy was a bad case, but geez.
Western Japan strikes again.
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Many sides
I knew that Italy was a bad case, but geez.
Well shit that's horrible.
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I knew that Italy was a bad case, but geez.
I love italy, but my country's treatment of women is just… bad. Like, my god, that's really really bad.
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Ya, that definely comes from that shitty and very mysoginistic belief that women can't achieve much without spreading her legs, none of our countries are much different in this matter. I hear it all the time on the streets but Italy probably went way further for giving this assholes that much coverage.
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lol at "forced to leave the country" though
Also, for some reason the article isn't saying that she spent 5years with him and that's actually why she's being called a whore. Her ex-husband even said that she was flattered by Weinstein…
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lol at "forced to leave the country" though
Also, for some reason the article isn't saying that she spent 5years with him and that's actually why she's being called a whore. Her ex-husband even said that she was flattered by Weinstein…
Come to think of it there's another Romance speaking country with some really iffy relationships with these sort of scandals.
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Voucher schools, particularly those in Florida, are a crooked sham that are more expensive than the public system and spectacularly worse to boot.
Not that this is a surprise or anything since the above applies to every single element of modern conservative policy in this country.
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Voucher schools, particularly those in Florida, are a crooked sham that are more expensive than the public system and spectacularly worse to boot.
Not that this is a surprise or anything since the above applies to every single element of modern conservative policy in this country.
I've heard the same in other parts of the country.
Almost as if education as a whole doesn't actually work with for-profit management.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So the situation in Iraq with the government suddenly pouncing on the Kurds (with Iranian help) is looking more complicated and less clear cut than it did at first.
Much of it based on stuff I was sort of aware of, but most articles are not touching on at all.Basically: Iraqi Kurdistan has never been a truly unified place.
For the most part when people are talking about "Iraqi Kurdistan" they're talking about the government in Erbil, which is basically synonymous with the KDP political party.
But in the south around the city of Sulaymaniyah there's a whole other Kurdish political party that has most of the support, the PUK.
The KDP and PUK have never liked each-other, they even fought a minor civil war in the 90's.
The leader of Iraqi Kurdistan, Masoud Barzani, has not been very power sharey shall we say, with the PUK people.And welp, it looks like the incursions into the area by the Arab/Iranian forces was given some possible blessing by the PUK.
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So-called feminists and social justice warriors are always making a fuss about letting muslims women cover their face because LIBERTY !!!
The same kind of people who have never stepped out of their country in their lifetime and don't know that even in muslim countries there isn't much women covering their face. The only persons in Istanbul I've seen covering their face (like 5person at most) were Arabs –from the arabic peninsula-- shopping in the Istiklal avenue (the turkish Champs-Elysées).
But for some reason insane liberals like to protect far-righty muslims... -
Justin is right that the state shouldn’t ban specific clothings. However, he should really look into the circumstances of niqabs and burqas and not act like there isn’t this whole absurdly sexist baggage related to it.
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Justin is right that the state shouldn’t ban specific clothings. However, he should really look into the circumstances of niqabs and burqas and not act like there isn’t this whole absurdly sexist baggage related to it.
I'd like to see (oh how I wish we had statistics) how many of these women who wear burqas and niqabs do this out of choice, and not because their father or husband (or mother) forces them to. Quite a few of my female muslim friends choose to not wear a head-cover in public, whenever they're parents happen to not be around. These same friends must also have relationships and have sex in secret, because if they were to be found out they're parents might beat them or disown them (yes, this happened to one of my friends, her parents beat her really badly because she was no longer a virgin, and she can't leave the household because she's afraid her parents will disown her.).
Sure, it may be a choice for many muslim women, and we should respect that, but many others are just stuck in a highly controlled environment where they're forced to follow a very strict version of Islam, instead of having the freedom to practice in a way that's more relaxed and suited to their wishes.
There doesn't seem to be an easy way to fix the issues of those whom are forced without infringing the religious freedom of those who choose to wear headscarfs and the such. That said, I think the value of freeing muslim girls who have no choice in the matter from they're parent's unreasonable wishes outweighs the infringement on religious freedom that this kind of ban comports.
So yeah, Trudeau is being naive, with his usual intersectional feminist stance forcing him to be politically correct in regards to islam, instead of seeing how this kind of ban actually helps women who are oppressed in muslim households.
I'd be curious to see what Femme thinks though, since this probably hits very close to home for her.
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This thing is only about the niqab, not the other thing covering the hair only. Even though in the end the difference is just the degree of covered area.
The niqab/burqah has been forbidden to wear in France since 2011 (or something like that) and it's not like lots of people were wearing it anyway.
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So-called feminists and social justice warriors are always making a fuss about letting muslims women cover their face because LIBERTY !!!
The same kind of people who have never stepped out of their country in their lifetime and don't know that even in muslim countries there isn't much women covering their face. The only persons in Istanbul I've seen covering their face (like 5person at most) were Arabs –from the arabic peninsula-- shopping in the Istiklal avenue (the turkish Champs-Elysées).
But for some reason insane liberals like to protect far-righty muslims...How dare far-right Muslims….exist?
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*Fundamentalist muslims
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@Monkey:
Yeah, same thing.
The crime here apparently being existing still.The crime being the attitudes and actions towards others that come with being a truly fundamentalist muslim. Like beating your daughter for losing her virginity, or forcing your wife to wear a whole body cover with just a slit for her eyes because other men seeing her skin 'hurts your pride', or murdering your sister for posting pictures of herself on instagram.
You know, same way we might try to make symbols associated with the KKK illegal in countries that don't have a 1st amendment. To discourage anyone from such extreme ideologies. To encourage moderate thinking by only allowing moderate displays in the public eye.
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That thing itches me too, women's rights in predominantly islamic countries are shat everyday. A bit of securalism would help even tho our western governments haven't completly learnt how secularism works yet, but mostly it left religion and politics quite far away from each other.
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Interesting. At 3minutes 24 -
The crime being the attitudes and actions towards others that come with being a truly fundamentalist muslim. Like beating your daughter for losing her virginity,
Crime: Child Abuse
or forcing your wife to wear a whole body cover with just a slit for her eyes because other men seeing her skin 'hurts your pride',
Crime: Spousal Abuse
or murdering your sister for posting pictures of herself on instagram.
Crime: Murder (I feel silly even having to post this one).
To discourage anyone from such extreme ideologies. To encourage moderate thinking by only allowing moderate displays in the public eye.
This tactic has failed spectacularly or 2016 onward wouldn't be happening.
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- yes, let's all remember what happened to the earth in 2016.
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@Monkey:
Crime: Child Abuse
Crime: Spousal Abuse
Crime: Murder (I feel silly even having to post this one).
This tactic has failed spectacularly or 2016 onward wouldn't be happening.Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant. Whether you believe the tactic is effective or not, the idea is to prevent these crimes by discouraging the surrounding fundamentalist culture that condones these crimes (as well as the public security element of needing to see people's faces in society).
You say these are already crimes. That's true. But if what is illegal and what is culturally condemned don't match, then people will disregard the law.
ie. So you may say murder, but in many fundamentalist Islamic cultures (as in Italian culture up to fairly recently) honour killings may be justified, beating your child might be allowed and seen as a parent's right to educate, and obeying your husband's will is the expectation, not 'Spousal abuse'.You might say 'no, preventing people from wearing a niqabs and burqas doesn't help prevent fundamentalism', but that's debatable. What's not debatable is that part of fundamentalist islam involves condoning these crimes.
In my mind, banning burqas is a proportionate response to achieve the policy goal of discouraging the practicing of fundamentalist islamic beliefs, whether you agree or not. -
But if what is illegal and what is culturally condemned don't match, then people will disregard the law.
So… banning burqas would achieve nothing because wearing them is clearly not culturally condemned by those who do so, and therefore they would just ignore any law to the contrary?
Sorry, but I can't help but feel that you're shooting your own argument in the foot, here.
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@Panda:
So… banning burqas would achieve nothing because wearing them is clearly not culturally condemned by those who do so, and therefore they would just ignore any law to the contrary?
Sorry, but I can't help but feel that you're shooting your own argument in the foot, here.
We’re talking about an environment where those who are aware don’t condemn the action, so it never gets reported.
Not really the same as the Burqa ban. But you’re partially right, it probably won’t be strictly enforced in densely muslim areas, because nobody will bring it up as an issue. But in your average neighbourhood? The centre? At work in a populous area? It will work there, because it’s in the public eye, not happening in the privacy of a home or within a tightknit circle of friends. -
So-called feminists and social justice warriors are always making a fuss about letting muslims women cover their face because LIBERTY !!!
The same kind of people who have never stepped out of their country in their lifetime and don't know that even in muslim countries there isn't much women covering their face. The only persons in Istanbul I've seen covering their face (like 5person at most) were Arabs –from the arabic peninsula-- shopping in the Istiklal avenue (the turkish Champs-Elysées).
But for some reason insane liberals like to protect far-righty muslims...Ok, first off, the term "Social Justice Warrior" or "SJW" has gotten to the point where it's just a straight up attack word to denigrate any Vocal Progressive. I know people who use it will pop up and go "Buh, buh, only extremes count as SJWs!" but that's not how it gets used.
I get called an "SJW" for correcting someone who calls me "Sir" these days. Nobody really uses it directed at "Extremes" anymore, it's almost always used to just mean "Any Vocal Progressive".
You're the type who uses the term SJW, so I'm pretty sure you're now thinking I'm "Offended" or "Triggered" or I'm asking for a "Safe Space" but I'm not. I'm just telling you what the term you're using means to others and letting you know that if you're trying to have an actual dialog, using terms like that isn't the way to do it. It's just gonna make people tune out of your argument.
If you just want to "trigger Libtard Cucks for topkek" then go nuts.
As for what you're actually saying there. Still No.
"for some reason liberals like to protect Far-Righty Muslims".
As a self professed "liberal" gonna fix that for you:
"For some reason, liberals like to protect freedom."
Here's the thing. If you tell me a man has forced his wife or daughter to wear a Hijab against her wishes, I have a problem with that. If you tell me a woman has chosen to wear a Hijab herself, I find it hard to argue why that decision is wrong for her. I know why I would consider it wrong for me, but It's wrong of me to project my values onto anyone else.
When "Feminism" gets brought up, a lot of people like to point to the discussion on Rape and be like "Well, if you're saying it should be fine for a woman to dress skimpy, then why are you fine with women covering everything?"
… Like it has to be one or the other. There can't be some women who want to dress more sexily or skimpy and some women who want to dress super modest. It's not like we're all individuals who have our own thoughts and feelings.
One of my best friends is a girl from a very strict Muslim family who ran away at young age and does NOT follow the tenants of the faith and is on very shaky grounds with her family as a result... but she still defends the wearing of the Hijab for anyone who legitimately chooses to.
I don't intend to speak for her, but I might just talk to her and have her weigh in on this. Post back with her response.
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Just to go along with the first part of Demonrin's post, SJW has, for me personally, become one of those phrases where, once I hear it used unironically, I find it that much more difficult to take the person who used it seriously.
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wtf, why are you acting like it was my first post on this forum ?
Also I've said Niqab/Burqa (edit: actually it seems I only said "covering their face" but it doesn't change a thing in the end), because this is what the article was about. I didn't say Hijab. Same goes for AfroSamurai, he's talking about the Hijab for some reason…
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And, I usually never use the expression SJW. But whatever, I guess everyone's happy now that we all learned the difference between Burqa and Hijab
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Feels like a very slippery slope to attempt to weed out what is or isn't done out ones own free will.
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wtf, why are you acting like it was my first post on this forum ?
Same goes for AfroSamurai, he's talking about the Hijab for some reason…Ey, Ey, I never said a ban a should apply to Hijabs, I was merely using it for the purposes of my anectodal examples, in those examples where the family was putting undue pressure, it was a Hijab, not a Burqa or a Niqab. And if this situation can arise with a much less extreme form of cover, I'm almost certain that there are women who are forced to wear the more extreme covers than what they would if they had a choice.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Here's the thing. If you tell me a man has forced his wife or daughter to wear a Hijab against her wishes, I have a problem with that. If you tell me a woman has chosen to wear a Hijab herself, I find it hard to argue why that decision is wrong for her. I know why I would consider it wrong for me, but It's wrong of me to project my values onto anyone else.
One of my best friends is a girl from a very strict Muslim family who ran away at young age and does NOT follow the tenants of the faith and is on very shaky grounds with her family as a result… but she still defends the wearing of the Hijab for anyone who legitimately chooses to.
Unfortunately, many girls can't do this. They can't run away, for all sorts of reasons. A very dear friend of mine is in exactly this situation. I would hate to imagine her being forced to wear a Niqab or a Burqa, she struggles enough being forced to wear a Hijab against her wishes right now.
So what can you do in that first situation you describe? Sure, the con of the ban is that it prevents women from exercising their free will. But a pro is that it lets women who aren't choosing wear something less extreme. It also dissuades extreme interpretations of Islam by limiting the amount of examples of such interpretations that are out in the open for people to see in everyday society. If something isn't ever the norm, less people are likely to endevour in it (As much as MonkeyKing disagrees).
I mean sure, if you can distinguish those who choose from those who don't in a way that doesn't provide answers under duress or conditioning in obeying one's husband, I'd agree, but as it stands, I veer towards protecting the women who don't have a choice, over protecting those who do. I happen to think the harm of being forced to wear a burqa or a niqab when going outside far outweighs that of not being able to wear one and being limited to a hijab… but maybe that's just me and my western morality, eh?
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Ey, Ey, I never said a ban a should apply to Hijabs, I was merely using it for the purposes of my anectodal examples, in those examples where the family was putting undue pressure, it was a Hijab, not a Burqa or a Niqab.
ok fine
I'm almost certain that there are women who are forced to wear the more extreme covers than what they would if they had a choice.
As I said, pretty much no one is wearing the hidjab/niqab to begin with, so I don't get why people are making it sound like it was a big issue for civil rights. (meaning, why banning it in Quebec rises an outrage for civil rights ? no one's wearing this shit anyway)
EVEN in muslim countries, it's a very uncommon thing. The only persons you'll see wearing it in Turkey (for instance) are the insane muslims from Saudi Arabia, Iran(I guess) or what. I've been there a few weeks, but I've only seen 3 or 5 women from the arabic peninsula wearing it.Of course, people wearing the burqa/niqab are obviously pretty much all forced to do so. The only ones who "aren't" are basically indoctrinated
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Of course, people wearing the hijab are obviously pretty much all forced to do so. The only ones who "aren't" are basically indoctrinated
I disagree, I think you'll find quite a lot of people who genuinely believe in wearing the hijab for religious reasons, even if it may seem silly to you and I.
Just like nuns wear weird clothing, buddhists try to live a life of meditation in harmony with nature, and francescan priest renounce all material wealth, many muslim women wear Hijabs to show their devotion to the faith. Assuming they're all forced is wrong, even if many no doubt are.
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oh yeah I meant Burqa/Niqab
I'll edit this -
I never met anyone in life who doesn't considers him/herself as liberal. I feel like some countries just like to polarize or antagonize each other way too much
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EVEN in muslim countries, it's a very uncommon thing. The only persons you'll see wearing it in Turkey (for instance) are the insane muslims from Saudi Arabia, Iran(I guess) or what. I've been there a few weeks, but I've only seen 3 or 5 women from the arabic peninsula wearing it.
You keep saying this bit like it's supposed to mean something in the argument (or that you're the only one to ever be in a muslim country for that matter).
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I never thought of burqas as exceptionally rare. Maybe not the norm ofc, but common enough.
Burqas certainly aren't an uncommon sight on the streets in Sweden.
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I never thought of burqas as exceptionally rare. Maybe not the norm ofc, but common enough.
Burqas certainly aren't an uncommon sight on the streets in Sweden.
They are? I've never seen a burqa in Sweden. And I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen a niqab.
Maybe they're more common where you live.