Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Well, there was this JP tweet that did compare Hiyori with Hitler.
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@Greg I might be wrong but wasn't Vivi herself conceived as a princess in the very last minute? It didn't seem like she was even supposed to be anything more than Mr.9's partner-in-crime.
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He said something to the effect in the 21st log, that Ms. Wednesday had already appeared and Alabasta's arc was already planned before he made drew Ms. Wednesday with her hair, felt she looked like a princess and then decided she would be Alabasta's. Certainly, Vivi was not created at the start of serialization and there wasn't a real hint of it... but I kind of like it. Gives the Barqoue Work arc some bigger stakes at the start.
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Greg do you have any idea what the giant egg on Rogers ship is about?
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@King-Cannon
Exactly. Vivi was an incredible coincidence. -
@Kishido said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I don't see Yamato even close to Vivi. Last chapter gives Momo the most Vivi treatment while Yamato isn't treated different as for example Kinemon.
You're free to see it how you like but the parallel stands:
A character postured to join, accepted by the crew, teased as joining....and does not at the very last minute. Whether you feel connected or not is different, everyone will feel different about Yamato that way. But how it was handled was the same.
Instead of merely singling one character out, it's more apt to say that Oda gave all three of them - Momonosuke, Kinemon, and Yamato - the Vivi treatment, since Luffy handed the invitation to the three to have them on board in the future if they want to be pirates.
There's no setup/expectation for Kin or Momo from the story. If you have personal expectations that's different, but those are personal expectations, not something Oda established as part of the narrative.
"Me the reader wants and/or expects Momo to join."
Is different from:
Momo: Luffy I want to join you.
That's why I said Vivi specifically.
arc fatigue
Yes, it probably exists, but no, I don't think Oda ever lets it affect what he tries to present. Oda gets frustrated like anyone else, I'm pretty sure he wants to be done with the story more than any other person, but he is FIERCELY dedicated to fans. This might not seem to gel with....
Oda writing for new/casual fans feels weird.
Yes, I agree, however, his theory is that while he's always writing for new casual fans, his old fans will stay because he's telling his story the same way. That is to say, he's not changing it up to be hip or cool, or the J.K. Rowling 'growing with readers' he's always writing from the same perspective for the same target.
Now, that may vary from course here and there. There are of course variant paths he takes along the way, but he is staunchly opposed to writing for self-fulfillment. I know this might sound contradictory to some points I've raised about Oda's ethic and goals but that's why I'm constantly saying 'there's no black and white' to this.
'm not sure it's really the economical side of things that motivate him.
See above. No, economics do not bother Oda.
At the same time, he, literally one man, is holding up an entire industry within an industry. Yeah, he has a team but you can't imagine still how small the team is compared to the tasks in front of them. Economics do not motivate him. But he also has to possess a smart, discerning, and entertaining business mind.
reads things
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why for are some ppl angry over born to burn?
The manufactured trigger-happy rage is really something these days.
"We need to understand and accept more from cultures and-F%%KYOUODAYOUREBASICALLYHITLERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!"
sigh
- The Kurozumis were buttholes. At least the majority of the ones we met. If Oda wanted them all to be a wicked line (as I wish he did) then he could have avoided the Tama thread.
but that's so meeeeean.
Real life and dynasties (mordern or otherwise) are mean. As they exist, the Kozuki are practically saints compared to any "Powerful person of the world list" that exists. If we were given a family line that is supposed to be evil, they're evil. That happens. Entire lines and even groups of people can be evil.
But that's moot because Oda decided to give them redeeming qualities.
- The "I'm offended." emotional tic has become, "This is my chance to be internet famous!" and people are letting ignorance drive rage.
One of the most famous Kung Fu films of all time....
'Enter the Dragon'
It's title in Japanese is not 'Enter the Dragon', it's 'Moeyo, Dragon' or 'Blaze[burn] on, Dragon!' Same 'moeru' base verb as used here.
The West just hears, "Burn a people." and goes into f%%king attack mode to get some clicks. This isn't let's defend Japan weeb happy love love hour. It's, they literally don't understand what they're reading and how it can impact native-speaking readers because they're ignorant to something.
Saying 'the Kurozumo were meant to burn[blaze]' is a joke, sure, that's the most basic level of comprehension you'd get from the usual suspects.
But consider what that means for Tama.
When Tama is Ninja Gaiden-ing her way through an enemy force someday she can JUST AS EASILY shout the EXACT SAME PHRASE and it would be f###ing badass. "We Kurosumi...were born to blaaaaze!" Every bit as when Oden said his variant. I guarantee you Oda intended this chance for the phrase to be turned on its head.
But nope, gotta get people angry.
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I don't agree that what happened now with Yamato is the same thing that happened with Vivi. And that's coming from someone who was always suspicious about the chances of Yamato joining.
Vivi's character and her goals were always about saving Alabasta. But since she travelled with the crew for so long (half the manga at that point) and felt like a main character, this created implied expectations on the readers about the possibility of her joining, especially being a fan favorite. So, at the end of Alabasta (after Crocodile), and only then, Oda capitalized on these expectations by making Vivi ponder about joining the SHs, until deciding to stay at the last chapter. It wasn't a plot twist Vivi not joining, but only an answer to a dilemma brought to the table at the very end.
On the other hand, Yamato was talking about joining the crew from the get-go, and it was the only verbalized goal of the character, so that was the readers' immediate and primary expectation. So when Yamato decides to stay in Wano at the last chapter, that's a huge plot twist (unlike Vivi), and a plot twist that wasn't properly executed. Oda could have made it more suspenseful, like having Yamato ponder about staying or leaving, making it actually a question waiting for an answer, but no. Nothing. There's barely a reason for Yamato's change of mind at the end. Just weird.
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
why for are some ppl angry over born to burn?
The way it's worded, it can be read as saying Kurozumis are evil and deserving of death by virtue of being Kurozumis rather than their actions, which would conflict with the story previous portraying the World Government's efforts to snuff out Roger's bloodline as bad, or Franky saying that just existing can't be a crime. Seems to validate what Higurashi and Orochi said about being unfairly persecuted for the sins of the late Daimyo.
People online are exaggerating it a decent bit, but I can definitely see where they're coming from.
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@theackwardstation said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I don't agree that what happened now with Yamato is the same thing that happened with Vivi. And that's coming from someone who was always suspicious about the chances of Yamato joining.
Vivi's character and her goals were always about saving Alabasta as its dutiful princess. But since she travelled with the crew for so long (half the manga at that point) and felt like a main character, this created implied expectations on the readers about the possibility of her joining, especially being a fan favorite. So, at the end of Alabasta (after Crocodile), and only then, Oda capitalized on these expectations by making Vivi ponder about joining the SHs, until deciding to stay at the last chapter. It wasn't a plot twist Vivi not joining, but only an answer to a dilemma brought to the table at the very end.
On the other hand, Yamato was talking about joining the crew from the get-go, and it was the only verbalized goal of the character, so that was the readers' immediate and primary expectation.
As placed in part of the narrative. I never said every step of their journey was the same.
So when Yamato decides to stay in Wano at the last chapter, that's a huge plot twist (unlike Vivi)
Vivi not joining was a plot twist. Or was intended to be. If you expected it (again) that's expectation, not the narrative.
We're talking about two different things.
I'm saying that:
The narrative positioned Vivi to join at the last second.
Vivi did not.The narrative positioned Yamato to join at the last second.
Yamato did not.But Yamato always talked about joining.
Sure, but the answer was never given. Even up through the previous chap the ending was ambiguous.
Not sure why we're spending time on this. It's irrelevant to pretty much any meaningful discussion and the parallel is indeed irrefutable. It's not evidence for anything other than, Oda did this thing again love it or leave it.
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The fishmen after their toxic culture almost ruined their country, well let's examine how we may all be partially responsible for how things went down. The Wanoese after their toxic culture almost ruined their country, say it with me now kids fuck that other clan, we had no part in how this turned out. And merrily goes back to their culture of demonizing people over inherited sin
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Maybe that's just it. The Wanoese are at heart a horrible vengeful people who perpetrate a cycle of violence- although in their defense they suffered 20 years of abuse at the hands of their persecutor. They may have been be freed from Kaido and Orochi, but they aren't freed from themselves.
Also let's not forget that during those 20 years, there was still a part of the population who reaped the benefits of Orochi's rule. The Flower Capital remained relatively prosperous while the rest of the country gradually became a wasteland. This could fuel conflicts as well.
And then what makes Momonosuke a great shogun in the future is that he might be the one to change the uses of Wano and lead them away from their xenophobic, shut-in ways.
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@Seafarer33 Even Oden made some big, clear statements about his people's narrow-minded attitudes towards outsiders in his day. I applaud Momo for not blindly following every one of his father's footsteps, but he should definitely be honouring that part of his legacy.
I'm disappointed the final chapters of the arc didn't give us at least a hint of this happening, but we'll see what's changed when we inevitably cut back to Wano for its role in the final saga.
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Wolfwood, this phrase doesn't make that impossible.
It's a massive middle finger to Kurosumi while at the same time a resounding call of encouragement and heroism.
It works both ways.
Was Kurosumi not deserving of burning?
Does Tama not deserve to blaze a new path?
That's literally what it suggests.
When Oden said it people weren't up in arms over him besmirching his entire line.
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Does Tama not deserve to blaze a new path?
Wait, you've mentioned this twice now. Is Tama officially a Kurozumi and I missed the information hidden somewhere, or is her lineage hypothetic ? (I do admit Kurozumi Tama would work very well to mend both ends in the future, regardless)
Unrelated sidenote: the unfortunate Kurozumi line will really be received differently based on your country and culture. I checked the official french translation and it goes straight "Kurozumis (plural) are meant to burn" without so much as hinting that there's a pun. Speak of lost in translation...
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Oden wasn’t using his family name to make the burning pun. And like you said in context Oden was using the pun as an act of heroism. In chapter 1057, it’s a besmirching of a family name with a people known to like to burn things they hate cheering it on. That’s the crowd/play turning the pun into an act of condemnation.
Just seems like Tama’s potential role of using the pun and turning it on its head would be in context when the Wano people try to burn her for holding the Kurozumi bloodline. That’s the implication people seem to be getting from the scene.
@Seafarer33 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Does Tama not deserve to blaze a new path?
Wait, you've mentioned this twice now. Is Tama officially a Kurozumi and I missed the information hidden somewhere, or is her lineage hypothetic ? (I do admit Kurozumi Tama would work very well to mend both ends in the future, regardless)
It’s a popular theory given Tama’s parents gravestones looked like they had the Korozumi family name written. Not confirmed yet though.
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Yeah call me a sensitive westerner if you must but it hits different when you hear a crowd shouting in unison the kurozumi were meant to burn. Like if Tama was one and said hah flame can't hurt me i'm a kurozumi we were born to burn, that works as an odd boast. But when used as a cheerful community chant against them it gets a little weird, pun or no pun. One is arguably an endearing quirk, the other feels like more of what got them into this mess in the first place. But honestly this wouldn't have hit as bad if Oda hadn't written Fishman island as wonderfully reflective as he did. He raised the bar too high and now he's smacking his head right into the bar with full force.
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Wait, you've mentioned this twice now. Is Tama officially a Kurozumi and I missed the information hidden somewhere, or is her lineage hypothetic ?
Yes. Unless Oda retcons, the grave markers of her parents both (barely) read Kurosumi. I wrote a column about it and they held it back for weeks to let it synch up with the Sukiyaki reveal chapters.
Oden wasn’t using his family name to make the burning pun.
This entirely misses the point. My point was, nobody complained because they thought it was cool. This line regarding the Kurosumi's can be exactly the same thing.
And like you said in context Oden was using the pun as an act of heroism.
And this can be used for heroism as well. In addition to describing a villain who deserved exactly that.
In chapter 1057, it’s a besmirching of a family name with a people known to like to burn things they hate cheering it on. That’s the crowd/play turning the pun into an act of condemnation.
Nowhere does it make the distinction of an entire lineage. It says 黒炭'Kurosumi' not 黒炭家'Kurosumike' which would mean the family. Even if it did, it can still be flipped but the point remains, it was directly referring to Kurosumi.
Just seems like Tama’s potential role of using the pun and turning it on its head would be in context when the Wano people try to burn her for holding the Kurozumi bloodline.
You've taken great leaps and incorrect assumptions with not only the language, but also a story, in order to imagine such a grim scenario of your own creation.
Yeah call me a sensitive westerner if you must but it hits different when you hear a crowd shouting in unison the kurozumi were meant to burn.
Again with the entire lineage. Where did that even come from?
Like if Tama was one and said hah flame can't hurt me i'm a kurozumi we were born to burn, that works as an odd boast.
We have the phrase 'blaze of glory' as a heroic phrase. The term is usually hyperbole as it pertains to flame but just the same it retains the meaning. What's said here, can mean exactly the same thing.
If anything, it's actually being repurposed from that style of phrase as a direct insult towards Orochi Kurosumi.
It doesn't ask it of the entire line.
She may even be quoting a phrase the family has of their own for all we know.
If one cannot accept that (at bare minimum) the way one reads the line be it scan, official, scan editor's note, reaction video, reaction article/comment, Google translate, or even rudimentary Japanese understanding, does not equate to what the line can mean or correctly convey the direction of the line at an individual deserving of it, one is indeed oversensitive and unwilling to accept that they might actually be wrong.
For what seems like the umpteenth time in this series....
The World: WE'RE SO ANGRY AT ONE PIECE!
Japan: Bruh that was awesome! Pass me another sake!
The World: WE'RE SO ANGRY!
Japan: About....what?
The World: THIS THING!!!
Japan: Oh, bruh, we can totally f%%% up stuff sometimes the way we portray things. Our bad, island country etc. amirite? We'll get there. But here, just lemme explain something abou-
The World: WE'RE SO ANGRY!!!!
Japan: Bruh?
The World: WE'RE SO ANGRY!!!!!
Japan: ....bruh?
The World: WE'RE SO ANGRY!!!!!!TEN YEARS LATER
The World: Man, remember that series One Piece? That was awesome! Like everything about it! So many good memories.
Japan: .....bruh....Aaaand cue the peanut gallery elsewhere talking about how I'm a OP-slurping weeb after I spent weeks examining the many failures of Wano's action and dramatic climax.
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So the correct translation of the Japanese would be only Orochi was born to burn? Not the other who have the same pun rich last name? Seems odd that all translations would miss that it was not a joke about their family name but just about specifically Orochi himself. I don't speak a lick of Japanese, so that whole their last name doesn't mean people with their last name unless it's with an -ke at the end sounds wild to me.
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Reading the notes it seemed like the joke it their name means charcoal, and charcoal should burn. Which seemed like it was a blanket joke about anyone bearing that last name. I haven't seen anyone note that Hyiori used a specific form of speech to only single out Orochi
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As an aside to the much important sensitivity wars, if you were to localize it could it maybe be like a family called johnson, and everyone in town joining in on an all johnsons are dicks chant, which is a rousing pun on the word johnson meaning penis. I'll take my greatness in gag translation award now please
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I find it really hard to interpret Hiyoris retort being about Orochi and only Orochi given the context of the conversation, where the pun is a clapback to Orochi evoking the grudge of his clan at large. Going "screw YOU Orochi, and just you!" would leave the grudge of the clan at large unadressed, and wouldn't really work as a blow so devastating that it dispels the evil specter of Orochi in despair, considering that he is specifically evoking a curse bigger than himself on the land.
Also if Tama is actually canonically a Korozumi, the omission of any juxtaposition of her with Orochis clan subplot is downright bizarre.
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Now I'm imagining the same big Pun Declaration in chapter 1057 being followed up by a panel of Tama walking by, a panel of her having a worried expression, Shinobu going "Is something wrong?" And Tama going "...no, its fine!" with a smile and then walking on
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The Wanoese being such dicks makes it far too easy to meme on it. Like Tama turning a corner in the capital and some gang going well well turn on the grill cause we just found a piece of charcoal -insert typical wano abuse of defenseless creatures-
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When Tama is Ninja Gaiden-ing her way through an enemy force someday she can JUST AS EASILY shout the EXACT SAME PHRASE and it would be f###ing badass. "We Kurosumi...were born to blaaaaze!" Every bit as when Oden said his variant. I guarantee you Oda intended this chance for the phrase to be turned on its head. But nope, gotta get people angry.Oh man, that sounds badass. Thanks for changing my mind on Hiyoris phrase.
What do you think about Luffys and Tamas new promise? And do you think we get to see her fulfilling her "Uub" role in future spinoffs? -
People do get too easily upset about the series and too often especially recently , but personally Hiyori bit was meh at its best and yamato being cut from the story this close to the end with little explanation is personal beef i have .
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@wolfwood Stephen translated it as "Kurozumi WAS born to burn", singular instead of plural, so I wouldn't say all.
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@All-Fiction i am waaay to self-taught in English to follow this. Could you break down how that word choice changes the sentance? Cause family name was born to burn or family name is born to burn sounds about the same in my non-native mind.
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@wolfwood said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@All-Fiction i am waaay to self-taught in English to follow this. Could you break down how that word choice changes the sentance? Cause family name was born to burn or family name is born to burn sounds about the same in my non-native mind.
Scanlation translated it with "were" which would imply plural, so more than one/multiple/all of the Kurozumis.The official aka Stephen translated it with "was" which is singular, so it implies that Hiyori was referring to only one single charcoal (Kurozumi), in this case being Orochi. Although since it's a rebuttal to Orochi saying "Kurozumi family（黒炭家）'s grudge shall curse this land", I guess some people could still interpret it as referring to the entire clan.
Then again, I think it's safer to take Greg's words since he's more experienced with the language and culture.
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Does the pun work if directed at the Korozumi family, or just if directed ar Korozumi, singular?
If the latter I can see that be the deciding factor, clarity and context for the line be damned.Like, I've been part of a sketch comedy revue, and so many times people- including myself- would stubbornly ignore feedback due to being really attached to a particular punchline. "But it HAS to be this, otherwise the pun doesn't work!", I've been there
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@Daz said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I find it really hard to interpret Hiyoris retort being about Orochi and only Orochi given the context of the conversation, where the pun is a clapback to Orochi evoking the grudge of his clan at large. Going "screw YOU Orochi, and just you!" would leave the grudge of the clan at large unadressed, and wouldn't really work as a blow so devastating that it dispels the evil specter of Orochi in despair, considering that he is specifically evoking a curse bigger than himself on the land.
Also if Tama is actually canonically a Korozumi, the omission of any juxtaposition of her with Orochis clan subplot is downright bizarre.
If you put Hiyori's line in context with the text of the rakugo play (including Orochi's line), it's pretty explicit that it's meant to talk about the last 20 years of Orochi's rule, so Kurozumi being understood under that specific boundary.
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Oda being stuck in a vaudeville act where the straight man keeps messing up his punchline is an amusing visual
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This post is deleted!
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Didn't someone post screenshots in the spoiler thread of Japanese people complaining about the Kurozumi line?
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That they did, or at least people speaking in Japanese.
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@Kaiolino yes, there was some backlash in Japan too (which I hope reaches Oda's ears for him to answer it), but, as far as I can tell, the controversy in Japan is very small compared to the s***storm here... which I don't think is merely due to cultural differences or anything. The better the phrasing of the sentence is, the less likely people will take harmful implications from it, but rather understand its purpose and meaning despite an underlying ambiguity. This is made clear by how Stephen's translation in VIZ made a lot of people feel better about Hiyori's line compared to the scans and spoilers. In fact, things really exploded here in the west during the spoilers of the chapter, when the line was more decontextualized from the rest of the text, and the translations much wider in scope.
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@Kaiolino Were they complaining or just making a point which some people google translated and assumed it was a complaint?
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The problem is that people try to make it sound like it's something that is based on language nuances and it's not. It’s based on logic/comprehension.
Just pretend the Kurozumi family name has always been translated as Charcoal and you easily bypass the supposed language barrier here. You have the Charcoal family, you have Orochi Charcoal. Hiyori tells him "Charcoal was born to be burned/Charcoal was made to burn/Charcoal is meant to burn".
There is no singular or plural to derive the conclusion from here. The phrase can be applied to both.
This is not the type of thing you can ask someone to tell you how you must understand it. No one can give you a definite answer just because they know Japanese, if they are honest they will tell you "it can be taken however you perceive it", if they are dishonest they will try to use their knowledge of the language to impose their own understanding.But it's up to anyone how they perceive the scene, the context and the phrase.
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If Yamato is supposed to be a parallel to Vivi, then it is an absolutely shitty version of it.
Vivi worked because we had 3 good chunky arcs of Vivi adventuring with the Straw Hats, bonding with them, she was the emotional thrust and heart of most of her tenure on the ship. Her staying made total sense for her character and came after a long internal debate with herself, the emotions of which Oda completely capitalized on with her farewell, still one of the most iconic scenes in the series.
Yamato on the other hand came at the ass end of the arc, didn't interact with any of the characters aside from Momonosuke and Luffy until after the raid and even then he barely had any interactions, Luffy never seemed to give a shit about him or have any sort of deep emotional connection with him even when he broke Yamato's cuffs, the symbol of Yamato's ten years of enslavement, Oda never capitalized on the emotional drama of that scene, he never seemed to register how important Ace was to Yamato, hell he never even found out Yamato made Ace's vivre card. There was no "People Die" moment like Luffy had with Vivi or the number of other similar moments Luffy had with Vivi as well as the other arc only companion characters. The most we ever got with Yamato and Luffy was a k, tx for holding off Kaidoh, a monumental accomplishment that saved who knows how many lives and he barely seemed to care. He never even got Yamato's name right until the last chapter.
And when it finally came to leave, Yamato's decision was completely offscreened, had no emotional weight, made zero sense for his character (Yamato wanting to tour Wano instead of leaving the first chance he got is as anti-Oden you can get) and made it feel like an afterthought instead of being an important part of the story. And for what? For a twist? What purpose did this twist serve? A twist just for the sake of a twist is never a good twist, it's just bad writing. When Vivi didn't join, it served to emphasize and build on her strength of character and her conviction and love for her people as well as catch you off guard with the surprise joining by Robin, whose joining wasn't out of left field but also subtly foreshadowed and felt like a satisfying pay off. Yamato not joining renders two years of build-up and panel time completely worthless, does not capitalize on any emotional drama or character building, it just feels like the whole thing was a total waste of time and a big fuck you to Yamato fans. A Shyamalan-esque style of writing that serves no other function but to surprise is the worst kind of writing, good twists should add to the story not take away, and I expected a lot better from Oda.
If this was supposed to be another rendition of Vivi, it is by far and away his worst that did nothing but to waste time, alienate fans and dumped a potentially fantastic character with a treasure trove of minable character drama. Yamato might just be the worst arc only side character in the series because Yamato never got the chance to be a character with an emotional connection to any of the main characters. Instead he's just going to be that one weirdo they barely met and remember. Vivi, Shirahoshi, Rebecca, freakin Bartolomeo and freakin Brownbeard made more of an impression on the Strawhats than Yamato!
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For me, the problem is that if this is supposed to be a moral reckoning, then it requires Tama to recontextualize the phrase, but as you've said plenty in this thread, Expectations are increasingly becoming the bane of long term OP fandom.
This is the story Oda told; that of the Kurozumi that we've met being worthy of burning on an individual basis, but also seemingly being the victims of systematic oppression that has fostered the creation of an Orochi and a Kanjuro.
It would be a lot easier to accept that they're just bastards if we hadn't seen the way they were treated by the people and if we trusted that Oda had something greater in mind. I want to trust that and the Tama stuff is compelling, but he hasn't touched the Kurozumi discrimination issue and didn't frame Wano/Hiyori's proclamation as at all problematic.
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The worst ending of an ambitious OP arc I have witnessed.
The initial idea was to start off with 4 Samurai IIRC, Oda should have sticked to this.
Oda can't abandon his ideas and thus introduces billion new characters that are not flashed out. Wano was a complete mess. And I thought Dressrossa is a mess. Good lord.
Oda restructuring the grande finale gives me hope, though. Please, stop introducing mediocre goofy side characters. It's not funny (anymore).
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I think Yamato's point is to come to represent the new Wano. I don't trust Oda quite as much as I once did, but I do trust that Wano's borders will be open and Yamato will sail in some way when this happens. Yamato waiting to find his freedom alongside Wano's, I think, is even more compelling than joining the crew, but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion.
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@access-timeco you're totally right that Hiyori's sentence itself -- even in japanese or in Stephen's translation -- doesn't exclude the worst interpretation possible¹. But the phrasing itself does still make a lot of difference, because, for example, some translations just said "the KurozumiS were born to burn" or "the Kurozumi, they were born to burn", which eliminates ambiguity and just puts it like genocide. But when the phrasing is more abstract and written more like a pun on the surname (simply "charcoal is meant to burn"), it's still possible to generalize its targets to all who carry the surname (thus problematic anyway), but it becomes more clearly a "figure of speech", a metaphor, a diss, therefore more flexible in regards to its meaning and targets (in this case, Orochi and his hatred).
So it's important to understand the grammar of the sentence to not be misguided. Again, the line still has underlying problems if someone wants to go there, but the positive interpretations also get more traction.
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¹ although I got curious about what Greg said about the difference of 黒炭'Kurosumi' and 黒炭家'Kurosumike'. -
@theackwardstation said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
¹ although I got curious about what Greg said about the difference of 黒炭'Kurosumi' and 黒炭家'Kurosumike'.
AFAIK, "Kurosumi" has ambiguity, "Kurosumike" would be unambiguous.
It's like saying: "Charcoal was meant to burn" or "The Charcoal family was meant to burn".
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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@Deicide said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@theackwardstation said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
¹ although I got curious about what Greg said about the difference of 黒炭'Kurosumi' and 黒炭家'Kurosumike'.
AFAIK, "Kurosumi" has ambiguity, "Kurosumike" would be unambiguous.
It's like saying: "Charcoal was meant to burn" or "The Charcoal family was meant to burn".
Yes, I get that. My curiosity is how japanese people usually talk, how the surnames are used (including prefixes and suffixes), and how the grammar works, so perhaps the absense of the "-ke" is immediately felt by japanese readers, so it becomes more obvious to them that it's not a condemnation of the family as a bloodline.
Or it makes no difference.
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@theackwardstation
I believe they see it in general more positively than us.I feel translations using "Kurozumi" unstranslated really makes the problem worse. I hoped the official one would use something that ends with "Charcoal is meant to burn", using previous speeches to link Kurozumi to Charcoal.
The official translated even has the speecher saying "Like the black charcoal of their family name, the Kurozumi...", setting this up nicely.
If it were up to me, I'd make Hiyori scream "Kurozumi means charcoal, and charcoal is meant to burn!"
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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@Deicide I prefer your first alternative instead of the second.
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Wano wasn’t all bad, there’s some genuinely great things, Nami saying Luffy would be Pirate King even in the face of death, Sanji calling out for Robin’s help because he trusts her, The ending to Robin’s fight with Black Maria, Sanji’s raid suit giving him invisibility, and the Character designs of the Flying six and the All Stars, every single one is a classic to me, in human form, hybrid form or just full on dinosaur form
And you can’t seriously tell me you don’t think Buggy becoming an Emporor and having Mihawk and Sir Crocodile working for him isn’t one of the best twists ever, and there putting bounties on Marines which sounds really cool
There were other things that were great too, I know it wasn’t the best arc of all time but I still enjoyed it a lot
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@theackwardstation Yeah, I can't find the perfect spot between keeping the original meaning and making a cool phrase.
It would be easier if the family name had been explored before in the story. We saw Oden using his catchphrase while eating Oden several times before his death, but Kurozumi as black coal wasn't really used before 1057, so I feel it needs to be reinforced for the pure "Charcoal was meant to burn" feel natural to foreign readers.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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@Shiebs said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Wano wasn’t all bad, there’s some genuinely great things, Nami saying Luffy would be Pirate King even in the face of death, Sanji calling out for Robin’s help because he trusts her, The ending to Robin’s fight with Black Maria, Sanji’s raid suit giving him invisibility, and the Character designs of the Flying six and the All Stars, every single one is a classic to me, in human form, hybrid form or just full on dinosaur form
And you can’t seriously tell me you don’t think Buggy becoming an Emporor and having Mihawk and Sir Crocodile working for him isn’t one of the best twists ever, and there putting bounties on Marines which sounds really cool
There were other things that were great too, I know it wasn’t the best arc of all time but I still enjoyed it a lot
This is true but also imo One Piece just set its own standard higher than just having great moments. Usually they all also connect rather satisfyingly. Wano feels just very off to me in how it didn't manage at least in my opinion to juggle all it tried to do. Dressrosa I think is still overfilled even on rereads but it all connects really well and there is not much in Dressrosa that I felt left me wanting more when Wano leaves me with a lot of nagging questions which is exhausting after having a 4 year arc in it.
