What do you think of the way women are portrayed in OP?

wolfwood

@Panda:

I can actually say, with complete sincerity, that I have never thought of either of those things as being 'feminine', no. Of course, I'm probably just some anomaly far outside of the norm on that, and won't try to pretend otherwise, so I'm not really raising it to argue the point; just wanted to put it out there, since the concept seems completely unfathomable to you.

In much the same way i don't really think of a washing machine as being feminine

I know that they apparently are because everyone keeps telling me so, but the thought never crossed my mind

Gonna feel weird when i wash my clothes next time lol

As far as the powers discussion goes, this may be a fine distinction, but I would say any problem lays less with the powers themselves, and more with the way they are used. Continuing with the Kalifa example, I would argue that far, far fewer people would take any issue with the fact that her DF was 'bubbles' if, for example, she hadn't randomly decided to take a bath in the middle of the fight, and had continued to use her whip in conjunction with her new abilities, instead of evidently completely forgetting that she was a deadly physical combatant.

Bubble whip sounds like an attack from pokemon, so i instantly approve of it

NER

I stalk this thread to much consedering that I don't really understand the importance of it..

Panda Bear

@Foolio:

Yes well that's too easy. I mean the way she wraps herself around Nami (and also Sanji maybe?) and "soaps them up" is more than enough.

I'm actually not really sure whether you're saying this in agreement or disagreement with my point – or neither in particular, for that matter -- but this is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to talk about. To me, at least, it's very simple to imagine Kalifa having had that power, but not having been so blatantly sexual in the way she used it.

I'll reiterate, in case it wasn't clear, that I'm not at all trying to say that there weren't some pretty glaring issues with that whole fight. I simply believe that complaining about the power, itself, is somewhat missing the mark.

TheCrystalShip

@Panda:

As far as the powers discussion goes, this may be a fine distinction, but I would say any problem lays less with the powers themselves, and more with the way they are used. Continuing with the Kalifa example, I would argue that far, far fewer people would take any issue with the fact that her DF was 'bubbles' if, for example, she hadn't randomly decided to take a bath in the middle of the fight, and had continued to use her whip in conjunction with her new abilities, instead of evidently completely forgetting that she was a deadly physical combatant.

This is the problem I have with it. She went from one of the few female physical attackers to just another female character who incapacitates their opponents from afar with magic powers.

Of course, baths and especially bubble baths ARE considered feminine within society, but I'm glad that you guys don't seem to have bought into that shit.

@NER:

I stalk this thread to much consedering that I don't really understand the importance of it..

It's necessary but sometimes I feel like it should be in General Discussion.

Silverblade

Caesar Zepelli lived and died to show the world how manly bubbles are.

DarkFalcon

@NER:

I stalk this thread to much consedering that I don't really understand the importance of it..

How different social issues are presented in media affects how see those issues in real life. Portrayal in media can strengthen or weaken some tendencies within society. Relationship between genders are relevant to any community on Earth. How characters people can identifies are portrayed affects how people feel about themselves. For example if you are a girl and you see girls in the media can accomplish something and fulfill their goals you start to feel that you may too accomplish something in life and start trying (It's really hard to work for something if you lack the feeling you can accomplish something). Representation in media matters. One Piece is powerful, influential media in Japan, since so many people and well, I'd say the narration is very powerful since it's epic and it has some effect on everyone who reads it. This is a type of story that is supposed to hijacks your heart but making you think is optional if you catch my drift (not that One Piece lacks elements that can and should make you think). We discuss highly important matter in quite important media. That's good training for spotting issues in the media and discussing them.

NER

@DarkFalcon:

How different social issues are presented in media affects how see those issues in real life. Portrayal in media can strengthen or weaken some tendencies within society. Relationship between genders are relevant to any community on Earth. How characters people can identifies are portrayed affects how people feel about themselves. For example if you are a girl and you see girls in the media can accomplish something and fulfill their goals you start to feel that you may too accomplish something in life and start trying (It's really hard to work for something if you lack the feeling you can accomplish something). Representation in media matters. One Piece is powerful, influential media in Japan, since so many people and well, I'd say the narration is very powerful since it's epic and it has some effect on everyone who reads it. This is a type of story that is supposed to hijacks your heart but making you think is optional if you catch my drift (not that One Piece lacks elements that can and should make you think). We discuss highly important matter in quite important media. That's good training for spotting issues in the media and discussing them.

Thank you for your elaborated reply.

Well, its just that I always have these tendencies to over simplfy such issues, and while I believe that OP IS sexist my opinions stand fairly simple about it, like any other issue consdering the manga.

Thats why it was quiet hard for me to understand how or why such a discussion got so lenghty.

again, thanks for your reply and I hope that I didn't interrubt anything going on in this thread.

indigoink

@Panda:

I'm actually not really sure whether you're saying this in agreement or disagreement with my point – or neither in particular, for that matter -- but this is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to talk about. To me, at least, it's very simple to imagine Kalifa having had that power, but not having been so blatantly sexual in the way she used it.

I'll reiterate, in case it wasn't clear, that I'm not at all trying to say that there weren't some pretty glaring issues with that whole fight. I simply believe that complaining about the power, itself, is somewhat missing the mark.

I think you have to take a wider view - when people are saying they find some of the women's devil fruit powers 'too girly', it's overly simplistic to respond "what's inherently feminine about bubbles?". You're splitting hairs in arguing there is a distinction between the founding principle of Devil Fruit powers that Oda chooses for women, and the way he chooses to have the women use them. It's not about 'the characters choosing to use the devil fruit in a sexy way', it's about the overall portrayal of women, their associated Devil Fruits, overall image, and the way these all tie together according to Oda's storytelling.

That said, when I think of bubbles and bubble baths, it's not really something you think of a manly man doing is it…? I do agree there is an inherent feminine aspect of this particular fruit. Robin's fruit on the other hand I don't think is inherently feminine, other than the random flowers that are associated with it [somewhat unnecessarily mind you].

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@NER:

Thank you for your elaborated reply.

Well, its just that I always have these tendencies to over simplfy such issues, and while I believe that OP IS sexist my opinions stand fairly simple about it, like any other issue consdering the manga.

Thats why it was quiet hard for me to understand how or why such a discussion got so lenghty.

again, thanks for your reply and I hope that I didn't interrubt anything going on in this thread.

To be honest a lot of the discussion is rehashing the same or very similar issues, just with new people lol

Panda Bear

@indigo~ink:

I think you have to take a wider view - when people are saying they find some of the women's devil fruit powers 'too girly', it's overly simplistic to respond "what's inherently feminine about bubbles?". You're splitting hairs in arguing there is a distinction between the founding principle of Devil Fruit powers that Oda chooses for women, and the way he chooses to have the women use them. It's not about 'the characters choosing to use the devil fruit in a sexy way', it's about the overall portrayal of women, their associated Devil Fruits, overall image, and the way these all tie together according to Oda's storytelling.

I seem to have, as is my wont, done a stunning job of failing to express myself, because this is exactly the point I was trying to make. It's not that the powers themselves are not part of the problem, necessarily, but rather that they are just that: a relatively minor part of the greater whole, which is what I feel people should be focusing on.

DarkFalcon

@NER:

Thank you for your elaborated reply.

Well, its just that I always have these tendencies to over simplfy such issues, and while I believe that OP IS sexist my opinions stand fairly simple about it, like any other issue consdering the manga.

Thats why it was quiet hard for me to understand how or why such a discussion got so lenghty.

again, thanks for your reply and I hope that I didn't interrubt anything going on in this thread.

Nah, It's ok. Topic is so long because the manga is so long so there is a lot material to discuss and of course many people see various issues and situation differently, identifies different problem, assign different level of importance to said problems or even see things in good or bad light. And there are many people here, in this thread, who are either social activists or students and researchers of some sort of discipline dealing with culture. For somebody unprepared it may be difficult to say whats going on.

indigoink

@Panda:

I seem to have, as is my wont, done a stunning job of failing to express myself, because this is exactly the point I was trying to make. It's not that the powers themselves are not part of the problem, necessarily, but rather that they are just that: a relatively minor part of the greater whole, which is what I feel people should be focusing on.

All good, I guess I was reacting to the idea "it's not the power itself, it's how it's used", which I have a problem with; I've seen a few people argue against the "girliness" of some Devil Fruit powers by saying it's only girly because the women are choosing to use them in a girly way. The point I'm trying to make is that it's crazy to make the distinction that the resulting "sexy" or "feminine" angle comes from the characters' own volition of how they use their powers, because everything is down to how Oda creates and writes the characters; so it's a very artificial distinction to base an argument on.

If that's not your angle, then I'm not at odds with what you're saying so I apologise - I am a bit pressed for time at the moment so I confess I didn't sit down and nut over your posts for too long XD

TheCrystalShip

@indigo~ink:

I've seen a few people argue against the "girliness" of some Devil Fruit powers by saying it's only girly because the women are choosing to use them in a girly way.

Well, this is bullshit on the face of it, because Oda decides everything that happens in the manga.

indigoink

^ precisely

I don't think that's what you were saying though Panda Bear, so my reply is kind of irrelevant to you lol mah baad

DarkFalcon

@indigo~ink:

All good, I guess I was reacting to the idea "it's not the power itself, it's how it's used", which I have a problem with; I've seen a few people argue against the "girliness" of some Devil Fruit powers by saying it's only girly because the women are choosing to use them in a girly way. The point I'm trying to make is that it's crazy to make the distinction that the resulting "sexy" or "feminine" angle comes from the characters' own volition of how they use their powers, because everything is down to how Oda creates and writes the characters; so it's a very artificial distinction to base an argument on.

If that's not your angle, then I'm not at odds with what you're saying so I apologise - I am a bit pressed for time at the moment so I confess I didn't sit down and nut over your posts for too long XD

if it comes to sexy - yes it's Oda choosing to draw it, so it looks sexy. but it's not the same issue as stereotypical girly power.
Lets look at awa awa no mi. Non girly power, used in arguably girly way, made to look "sexy" (I don't think actual use should look that glamorous, it'd probably be huge mess). So we can assume sexy look was the aim the author was working for. So it's sexist by oversexualization. I can assert that Oda is indeed "guilty" of this, though he usually keeps it within acceptable borders. I cannot agree that Oda uses some inherently girly powers exclusively for women and separates from men by doing so.

Panda Bear

@indigo~ink:

^ precisely

I don't think that's what you were saying though Panda Bear, so my reply is kind of irrelevant to you lol mah baad

Not to worry! What I am saying, though, just to adjust your own words to fit, is that that the 'girliness' of certain Devil Fruit powers comes, at least in large part, from the way that Oda, as the author, chooses to have them used. It's no less of a problem, for that, and perhaps it's ultimately an unimportant distinction, but I feel it's a valid one, nonetheless.

Obviously it would be ridiculous to talk about a character 'choosing' to do something in this sort of meta-context, considering they're merely fictional constructs of the author, as Crystal pointed out already.

Supernova122

I feel like being silly and pointing out that neither covering oneself with a giant bar of soap nor making onself look like a sheep by coating oneself with large numbers of soap bubbles are sexy. Nor a soapy tidal wave actually. Or the weird 'smooth' bodies Kalifa creates.

TheCrystalShip

@Supernova122:

Or the weird 'smooth' bodies Kalifa creates.

You'd be surprised…

carcanclaw

@Sereques:

You can look at it that way, but what they are saying is most range abilities goes to women. They want to see women in close combat situations like Luffy and Sanji. Imagine Nami wielding two Yorus and going against Mihawk. Then couple of chapters later, Mihawk is defeated with Nami looking like Zoro at the end of Thriller Bark. They believe that shows gender equality.

Also, all the ladies in OP should cover themselves up FFS and cut it out with the boob job. In the real world, A and B Cups are the way to go, those perky double Ds are unrealistic. They won't mind a female Shichibukai with a large scar on the left side of her face and wolverine-like claws with blood dripping from it. Hancock? Give me a break. Enough of beating up old people already, they want to see Franky hold maybe someone like Conis or Margaret down with his centaur and launch a decent Coup de vent to her face. At that point, OP will now be in sync with the real world and all the audience will have something to relate to instead of the typical 12-16yo boys.

We aren't trying to take away the power or machismo of male characters, we aren't trying to take away boobs or sex appeal. I always get the feeling that this is what guys are really worried about when they argue against the validity of gender discussions. I mean, what's wrong with any of what you posted anyway? Why couldn't a woman defeat a powerful opponent? Why can't a female shichibukai be vicious-looking and dangerous? And why couldn't an attractive female character be beaten up by a male one?

I'd also point out that little boys don't actually care about these issues at all. The creators of Avatar: The Legend of Korra spoke about how, during focus testing, the target audience didn't care about Korra's gender, they just thought she was cool. It was the grown men at Nickelodeon that were worried about her being female, not the boys who were watching the show.

As far as the issue of identifying with characters being difficult for men too, look at what I originally wrote and reverse all mentions of gender. I mentioned that I'm an attractive woman who is prone to physical action and gets hurt in humorous ways occasionally. Think about how many men there are who fit that description in the story.

Schabrak

@carcanclaw:

And why couldn't a female character be beaten up by a male one?

We only got one female Yonkou and she's exactly that.

carcanclaw

@Schabrak:

We only got one female Yonkou and she's exactly that.

True, but she fits the theme of ugly/old women being okay to beat up. I edited my post to include the word "attractive," which better illustrates the issue.

Schabrak

All you did by asking the question is open op the circle of reasonings again.

Monkey D. Destiny

Why couldn't a woman defeat a powerful opponent? Why can't a female shichibukai be vicious-looking and dangerous?

Even though I'm expecting the generic "they don't count because x, and y, and z…"
Here

And Here

carcanclaw

@Schabrak:

All you did by asking the question is open op the circle of reasonings again.

Because it was presented as something inherently bad with no rationale. It makes absolutely no sense to argue against physical comedy/slapstick/brutality being applied to beautiful women in the same way Oda applies it to every other type of character.

@Monkey:

Here

And Here
youtube;twOLRZHe6Jw]

My post was directed at Sereques's implication that a woman beating a powerful character like Mihawk with physical violence would be ridiculous. But yes, that does happen to be one of Nami's better moments.

indigoink

@Panda:

Not to worry! What I am saying, though, just to adjust your own words to fit, is that that the 'girliness' of certain Devil Fruit powers comes, at least in large part, from the way that Oda, as the author, chooses to have them used. It's no less of a problem, for that, and perhaps it's ultimately an unimportant distinction, but I feel it's a valid one, nonetheless.

Obviously it would be ridiculous to talk about a character 'choosing' to do something in this sort of meta-context, considering they're merely fictional constructs of the author, as Crystal pointed out already.

That's pretty much exactly the argument I was trying to get across in my post, so clearly you aren't one of the people I should be explaining the point to

@Supernova122:

I feel like being silly and pointing out that neither covering oneself with a giant bar of soap nor making onself look like a sheep by coating oneself with large numbers of soap bubbles are sexy. Nor a soapy tidal wave actually. Or the weird 'smooth' bodies Kalifa creates.

lol sure, but can you imagine a male character sensually rubbing another male character to make him so "smooth" that he can't stand up and fight etc? The examples you picked aren't exactly the problematic ones XD

On another note, Sereques' post pretty much summed up what I want to see. Women with scars, frightening appearances, standing up to male fighters, no positive discrimination based on appearance… pity he was being sarcastic...

DarkFalcon

"Attractive" women "good" men use physical violence against:
Ms Valentine, Nun on Whiskey Peak, Vivi, Baby 5

"Ugly" women "good" men use physical violence against:
Alvida (before consuming the fruit), Ms Merry Christmas, Jora

Non standard but not exactly ugly women "good" men use physical violence against:
Ms Monday (she is normal looking, has normal proportions, she has very visible muscles, that's something most women in One Piece don't have, other characters don't react to her in a way suggesting, they think she is ugly, and Mr. Nine certainly don't feel that way), Boa Sandersonia and Boa Marigold (I can't say I find them ugly, in the story they have been described as beautiful by others)
Personally I would say all three are beautiful, but I put them in separate group , as from my observation it seems that's controversial for people.

Villains use physical violence against everybody. Women don't get special treatment in this aspect.

have I omitted Someone?

wolfwood

Isn't a frightening apperance and ugliness sort of the same thing?

indigoink

^ I wouldn't think so. Frightening as in intimidating, looks strong; rather than freaky lookin'.

Edit: like Whitebeard frightening ("holy crap this guy is a monster!!") versus Moria frightening ("what an ugly freak")

carcanclaw

@DarkFalcon:

"Attractive" women "good" men use physical violence against:
Ms Valentine, Nun on Whiskey Peak, Vivi, Baby 5

"Ugly" women "good" men use physical violence against:
Alvida (before consuming the fruit), Ms Merry Christmas, Jora

Non standard but not exactly ugly women "good" men use physical violence against:
Ms Monday (she is normal looking, has normal proportions, she has very visible muscles, that's something most women in One Piece don't have, other characters don't react to her in a way suggesting, they think she is ugly, and Mr. Nine certainly don't feel that way), Boa Sandersonia and Boa Marigold (I can't say I find them ugly, in the story they have been described as beautiful by others)

have I omitted Someone?

Sounds about right to me. I'd also add that the ugly females are more likely to get their faces messed up (broken teeth, lumpy faces, etc) in the typical OP sense than the attractive ones. I've never seen a woman in this series whose beauty was actually marred when she was defeated, most just look a bit scuffed up.

Daz

@Monkey:

Even though I'm expecting the generic "they don't count because x, and y, and z…"
Here

And Here

Are you seriously resorting to Hotori and Kotori, they of the fart dials, and Hancock beating up what amounts to statues- not attacking her or defending themselves in any way shape or form- in order to prove how women are vicious fighters?

Schabrak

And now a list of all female combatants in the series. :P The list isn't that long, how many attractive "bad" women were avalaible to be hit by a male character, how many were not occupied fighting a female opponent?

Foolio

@Panda:

I'm actually not really sure whether you're saying this in agreement or disagreement with my point – or neither in particular, for that matter -- but this is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to talk about. To me, at least, it's very simple to imagine Kalifa having had that power, but not having been so blatantly sexual in the way she used it.

I'll reiterate, in case it wasn't clear, that I'm not at all trying to say that there weren't some pretty glaring issues with that whole fight. I simply believe that complaining about the power, itself, is somewhat missing the mark.

I was agreeing with you, while making a joke about how you're making the case the easy way. I agree that the fruit itself is a small portion of the image of the user and the use of the fruit in general. But I don't think it's pointless or insignificant to examine the abilities themselves in abstract. It depends on the character as well, obviously, but I'm sure you could have a field day with Hancock's ability. It requires no real contextualization. You could probably inversely argue that even without the DF, Hancock's character remains the same.

TheCrystalShip

@Monkey:

Here

Besides the point that Daz brought up…

You do realize that we're never going to see anything like this again right? At least not from Nami.

I mean, just look at her appearance, let alone the fight. And then she finishes off that mook with a fucking power gauntlet. Just compare the Kalifa pseudo-fight to the Doublefinger fight, and you'll understand that Nami's fights are never going to be the same as they once were (and to be honest, we didn't see very many from her to begin with). In fact, we've been waiting for a Nami fight PERIOD for seven years, so I'm actually uncertain if it's ever going to happen again, at least until she inevitably fights Devon.

Monkey King

@DarkFalcon:

"Attractive" women "good" men use physical violence against:
Ms Valentine, Nun on Whiskey Peak, Vivi, Baby 5

Nun doesn't count, and subtract Vivi and Valentine for Luffy being a consistent anomaly in behavior, and that leaves us with Franky vs. Baby 5.

wolfwood

@indigo~ink:

^ I wouldn't think so. Frightening as in intimidating, looks strong; rather than freaky lookin'.

Edit: like Whitebeard frightening ("holy crap this guy is a monster!!") versus Moria frightening ("what an ugly freak")

Apart from that he's like 5 meters tall there's nothing really threatening about him, he looks like kind of a grumpy grandpa

Most of the strong dudes in OP don't look all that tough

But yeah i see what you were getting at by that distinction

MetaMario

@TheCrystalShip:

I mean, just look at her appearance, let alone the fight. And then she finishes off that mook with a fucking power gauntlet. Just compare the Kalifa pseudo-fight to the Doublefinger fight, and you'll understand that Nami's fights are never going to be the same as they once were (and to be honest, we didn't see very many from her to begin with). In fact, we've been waiting for a Nami fight PERIOD for seven years, so I'm actually uncertain if it's ever going to happen again, at least until she inevitably fights Devon.

Or possibly Lafitte.:ninja:

In all seriousness, I sadly agree. Where's the knit and grit these days? Seriously, Nami can handle herself, we know that. Maybe Monet? Maybe Jora? No, someone else had to do most of the work. Baby 5? That was a curbstomp at best (but not unwelcomed in my eyes), and Franky had taken care of most of the work anyway. The best we got is taking down random mooks in the New Fishman Pirates (again, not unwelcomed, but she didn't get an attack spread/specific opponent)

Robin needs more fights too, but I've always thought the problem there isn't "a pretty woman not fighting", but the fact that it's hard to build a compelling fight off of her power itself. She can break a person's spine in like two seconds.

If I sound like some kind of fight junkie, then I apologize. But c'mon Oda, throw 'em a bone.

Daz

@TheCrystalShip:

Besides the point that Daz brought up…

You do realize that we're never going to see anything like this again right? At least not from Nami.

I mean, just look at her appearance, let alone the fight. And then she finishes off that mook with a fucking power gauntlet. Just compare the Kalifa pseudo-fight to the Doublefinger fight, and you'll understand that Nami's fights are never going to be the same as they once were (and to be honest, we didn't see very many from her to begin with). In fact, we've been waiting for a Nami fight PERIOD for seven years, so I'm actually uncertain if it's ever going to happen again, at least until she inevitably fights Devon.

^Thats actually a good point; even if the Tori bro's were agressively lame, the fight actually had a brisk "action packed" flow, compared to the dull "lols, I'll slooowly toy with you for just enough weeks that you can insta-beat me" of Kalifa. Even the fight against Doublifinger, better though it was, did not escape that entirely.

Robin vs Yama is probably the best fight with a female participant in the entire series, bar none. Short, neat, and brutally effective…and the catalyst for a decade of Fight blueballs for Robin fans.

As I've said before though, its not just about fights because action is KEWL, but because fights spotlights a crewmember, and gives them shining, memorable moments. By omitting women from main fights, they wont get moments like Zoro hearing the breath of all things, Usopp debating with Sogeking at Thriller Bark, hell, even Brook telling off Zeo for his warped perception of glorious death.

DarkFalcon

@carcanclaw:

Sounds about right to me. I'd also add that the ugly females are more likely to get their faces messed up (broken teeth, lumpy faces, etc) in the typical OP sense than the attractive ones. I've never seen a woman in this series whose beauty was actually marred when she was defeated, most just look a bit scuffed up.

actually there are so few instances that's it's hard to make a statistic. There are just few instances where we see "ugly" women comically hurt on non of "attractive". Lets count - we haven't seen that much of Alvida face after she has been defeated so that makes Ms Merry Christamas and Jora and… hmm... I can't remember any other comical injuries on ugly women. Actually there are so few instances that's it's hard to make a statistic. Two is definitely to few to draw a conclusion.

indigoink

@wolfwoof:

Apart from that he's like 5 meters tall there's nothing really threatening about him, he looks like kind of a grumpy grandpa

Most of the strong dudes in OP don't look all that tough

But yeah i see what you were getting at by that distinction

lol I disagree, his whole design is based around being the strongest man in the world so I think there's more to it than making a normal old dude 5m tall and a bit grumpy looking. Adding height and muscle mass is an insta-solution to making a character look more fearsome and formidable; but I would give Oda a little more credit in the effectiveness of his design than saying that's all it comes down to.

DarkFalcon

@Monkey:

Nun doesn't count, and subtract Vivi and Valentine for Luffy being a consistent anomaly in behavior, and that leaves us with Franky vs. Baby 5.

I dare to disagree. Luffy's willingness to hit anybody is part of his character the same way Sanji's unwillingness to hit any women in any situation at all is part of his. You can as well say that Sanji's behaviour is anomaly.

indigoink

I'd say Luffy's behaviour is an anomaly, whereas Sanji's is an exaggerated personification of the prevalent attitude in the OP world. It's unusual for a man to straight up hit a woman (Luffy). It's not unusual to see differential treatment towards women (given they are "attractive enough to be treated as a woman"), both in the way male characters act towards them in-universe, and in the way Oda writes the characters' fights/appearance/abilities, from a more critical perspective. Sanji just goes far enough that he is seen as a joke; rather than someone who is necessarily going against the social norm.

Monkey D. Destiny

@The:

Hancock beating up what amounts to statues- not attacking her or defending themselves in any way shape or form- in order to prove how women are vicious fighters?

You mean The same statues that the Strawhats had very high difficulty in defeating even just one of them in the Sabaody arc? And Boa Hancock one-shotted two of them at the same time with pure leg strength? Yeah how dare I use them as example to prove than women in OP can be strong?

wolfwood

@indigo~ink:

lol I disagree, his whole design is based around being the strongest man in the world so I think there's more to it than making a normal old dude 5m tall and a bit grumpy looking. Adding height and muscle mass is an insta-solution to making a character look more fearsome and formidable; but I would give Oda a little more credit in the effectiveness of his design than saying that's all it comes down to.

Looking at some of the top dogs it's hard not to think that's what he does lol

But i really can't think of many guys in OP who by their looks alone sell the i'm threatening thing

All the admirals are kind of silly looking extremly tall dudes, ranging from Aokiji who looks absolutely normal, to Kizaru who looks goofy as shit. Garp and Sengoku also look far to silly to ever intimidate anyone based on apperance. The vice-admirals out-scary the top brass by a wide margin

Mihawk is a well dressed, ordinary man with strange eyes so i guess he didn't even get the height boost. Doffy does look a bit deranged, i suppose he could slink by on that you never know what a huge guy with a boa and his tongue out is up to. Croc yeah i guess he's got that creepy mafia look down, he's got that sort of intimidating look i think you were after

Shanks looks absolutely normal, he's like the Joe Average Irish guy of the OP world. Jinbei? When you look like that you better have some extra mass if you want to scare anyone. And then there's Blacky, who i guess looks pretty seedy, but in that the drunk who never leaves the bar kind of way

But this has nothing to do with anything really. So carry on with the regularly scheduled programming:ninja:

Supernova122

@indigo~ink:

lol sure, but can you imagine a male character sensually rubbing another male character to make him so "smooth" that he can't stand up and fight etc?

O.O Yes.

The examples you picked aren't exactly the problematic ones XD

Well yeah, I was being silly :p But in fairness, Kalifa's power is at least as much silly as it is sexy (as it is portrayed). Funny that Kaku gets laughed at so much for being a giraffeman (which is a pretty cool power) and nobody takes the time to laugh at Kalifa. Soap Sheep!

@The:

Robin vs Yama is probably the best fight with a female participant in the entire series, bar none. Short, neat, and brutally effective…and the catalyst for a decade of Fight blueballs for Robin fans.

O.o that was a really really average fight at best. Actually probably even bad? It's strongest redeeming feature is that it's Robin's only proper fight. Since versus Pell can hardly count …

DarkFalcon

@indigo~ink:

I'd say Luffy's behaviour is an anomaly, whereas Sanji's is an exaggerated personification of the prevalent attitude in the OP world. It's unusual for a man to straight up hit a woman (Luffy). It's not unusual to see differential treatment towards women (given they are "attractive enough to be treated as a woman"), both in the way male characters act towards them in-universe, and in the way Oda writes the characters' fights/appearance/abilities, from a more critical perspective. Sanji just goes far enough that he is seen as a joke; rather than someone who is necessarily going against the social norm.

I'd say neither is an anomaly. There's a spectrum of attitudes about using towards women with Luffy being one side of the spectrum and Sanji being on the opposite side and other characters being somewhere in between some near Luffy's side, others leaning towards Sanji's side.

male Strawhats fought or beat up with about twelve female opponents. The fights can be decided int 3 categories so far: when they fought "attractive" women and inflicted physical damage, when they fought "ugly" women and inflicted physical damage, w hen they fought "attractive" women and hadn't inflicted physical damage. By this point non of them ever fought "ugly" woman and hadn't inflicted physical damage.

Foolio

@DarkFalcon:

I'd say neither is an anomaly. There's a spectrum of attitudes about using towards women with Luffy being one side of the spectrum and Sanji being on the opposite side and other characters being somewhere in between some near Luffy's side, others leaning towards Sanji's side.

I don't even know how you can equate the two things.

Something that stands out as especially positive compared to usual is good (we all like this trait that Luffy has).
Something that stands out as especially negative compared to usual is bad (Sanji).

Like are you saying Luffy being exemplary justifies Sanji being terrible?

indigoink

@wolfwoof:

Looking at some of the top dogs it's hard not to think that's what he does lol

But i really can't think of many guys in OP who by their looks alone sell the i'm threatening thing

All the admirals are kind of silly looking extremly tall dudes, ranging from Aokiji who looks absolutely normal, to Kizaru who looks goofy as shit. Garp and Sengoku also look far to silly to ever intimidate anyone based on apperance. The vice-admirals out-scary the top brass by a wide margin

Mihawk is a well dressed, ordinary man with strange eyes so i guess he didn't even get the height boost. Doffy does look a bit deranged, i suppose he could slink by on that you never know what a huge guy with a boa and his tongue out is up to. Croc yeah i guess he's got that creepy mafia look down, he's got that sort of intimidating look i think you were after

Shanks looks absolutely normal, he's like the Joe Average Irish guy of the OP world. Jinbei? When you look like that you better have some extra mass if you want to scare anyone. And then there's Blacky, who i guess looks pretty seedy, but in that the drunk who never leaves the bar kind of way

But this has nothing to do with anything really. So carry on with the regularly scheduled programming:ninja:

I'm thinking of it based on their entire image and how this contributes to their portrayal of strength. This includes their appearance, costume, and the way they are drawn. For e.g. I think Mihawk's image has a suitable aura of mystery and power. I would say he is designed to be intimidating, particularly with the hawk eyes obviously, but that's not the full extent of it; everything from his threads to his cold demeanour to his creepy wee candlelit dingy counts towards this mysterious aura. Because of all this he seems like a powerful man and a threat.

I actually disagree about the Admirals, I think you can tell they are in positions of power from their designs. Especially the magma dude. Doflamingo is awesomely deranged, I especially love the way Oda makes his hands look so creepy. Croc you can tell he doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks. But think of all the other OP men… it's so common for men to be presented as formidible. Zoro has had his fair share of "scary demon guy" panels when fighting. Sanji has his "badass attitude" style. And Luffy is shown to act like a stupid kid half the time, but when his straw hat is shading his face... you know shit's gonna go down, angry Luffy is one of the more fearsome things in the manga! It's just not often a female character gets this kind of treatment where they are shown with the same fierce determination and dominance.

I think you do have to consider it within the context of One Piece lol there are some crazy looking dudes in this manga so it's not too surprising if everyone is a bit quirky. Garp is meant to be friendlier so while he looks like an old battle-axe he's not really meant to be taken seriously as a threat. Sengoku.... not going to argue with you there, dude wears a seagull hat. Sure I think there's a balance of goofiness and intimidating looks for the OP men. I'd just like a few more women to be considered powerful enough to be given the "intimidating" treatment.

Anyway I think one's interpretation of character designs can be pretty subjective. I'm not going to argue the point if you or anyone else disagrees with what I'm saying. Just food for thought I guess?

DarkFalcon

@Foolio:

I don't even know how you can equate the two things.

Something that stands out as especially positive compared to usual is good (we all like this trait that Luffy has).
Something that stands out as especially negative compared to usual is bad (Sanji).

Like are you saying Luffy being exemplary justifies Sanji being terrible?

no, those both examples just stand out and are different from other attitudes, in that sense they are both anomalies. Anomaly isn't defined by being positive or negative and certainly do not justify one another. Not that I think of those attitudes as anomalies, but I think if somebody decides one is anomaly they also need to acknowledge as the anomaly as well.

indigoink

@DarkFalcon:

no, those both examples just stand out and are different from other attitudes, in that sense they are both anomalies. Anomaly isn't defined by being positive or negative and certainly do not justify one another. Not that I think of those attitudes as anomalies, but I think if somebody decides one is anomaly they also need to acknowledge as the anomaly as well.

No the difference is that Sanji is an exaggeration of the common attitude (women treated differently). Luffy goes against the common attitude (women treated the same). Can you give us some examples of other men who have gone and punched/seriously attacked a pretty woman and it hasn't been a "horrifying" thing? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Eneru attacking Robin, which was shown as "horrible and tragic" and made him out to be more of a villain - thanks to Zoro's sudden 180 towards chivalry/positive discrimination "omg she's a woman wut r u doing?!1!!".

Monkey King

@DarkFalcon:

I dare to disagree. Luffy's willingness to hit anybody is part of his character the same way Sanji's unwillingness to hit any women in any situation at all is part of his. You can as well say that Sanji's behaviour is anomaly.

We aren't talking about Sanji, we're talking about Oda and what points non-ugly/strange looking women face off against protagonists.
When 50% of the examples listed come from one character often shown as lacking finesse, intelligence, and maturity that says a lot of it's own things.

Cyclone_Baroness

All I can really say to the soap bubble attack male vs female is….

!