@Robby:
The problem with the blackbeard scene is thats back when it was still a new concept and was still being called spirit rather than captial H Haki. In the Japanese it casually fits into dialogue as a normal ordinary word that can fly under the radar, and Blackbeard actually used it way back when at Jaya.
They also amde a big point during that confrontation that BB actually turned LLuffy's rubber off rather than just hit through it… because BB's devil fruit became a LOT lamer once Haki showed up and had to start emphasizing the special traits. When it was the only thing that could bypass fruits it was crazy broken, now it's just... there.
That chapter also bizarrely has seasoned Warlord and would-be emperor killer Crocodile being the one to go “Luffy bleeds from a punch? But he’s rubber!”, as if the ability to do just that isn’t doable by any half-respectable new world pirate with armament haki. Oda not having to deal with specific DF counters (Luffy must always face blades and explosions and stuff other than blunt force trauma) was one of the perks of the concept!
That chapter also bizarrely has seasoned Warlord and would-be emperor killer Crocodile being the one to go “Luffy bleeds from a punch? But he’s rubber!”, as if the ability to do just that isn’t doable by any half-respectable new world pirate with armament haki. Oda not having to deal with specific DF counters (Luffy must always face blades and explosions and stuff other than blunt force trauma) was one of the perks of the concept!
and Yeah, I can't imagine Oda introducing Teach's fruit like he did if he had armament haki and its applications formalized back then.
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@FolhaS:
I was commenting on the scene from my point of view back then, and only then applied the retcons.
Luffy is rubber and you can choke him, but you literally cant smash his trachea. It would stop him from breathing for a second but thats the same effect a strong pat on the back has.
Even without any haki implications the scene was framed as These enemies are a new type of scary, they can "fly", cut with their legs, and even hurt Luffy who is made of rubber. All impossible things.
@Captain:
Lucci's haki doesn't stop Luffy's throat from being made of rubber. His body is still going to warp around a blunt impact like that, even if it hurts him.
Thats not how armament works though- the whole point is that you affect your opponent as if they didn’t have whatever DF they have, so if you punch Akainu in the face with Haki you don’t splatter magma everywhere and then he goes “ouch!” when his head reforms, you punch him in the face as if he has a normal face. And the reason I say this is because the rules were explicitly reiterated by Luffy in his Katakuri fight, chapter 884, where he goes “My haki punches went through you even though you’re a logia, that’s not how how its supposed to work, its supposed to make you be normal!”. The whole Katakuri fight is Luffy being kicked and punched all over the place and bleeding, getting hurt, and not once reacting to said blows in a rubbery-bendy way. But as if he’s getting punched in the gut and it fucking hurts. Much like when Garp punched Luffy and people went “Whaaa, but he’s rubber?” or when Blackbeard punched Luffy and Croc went “Blood?! But he’s rubber!”, and he didn’t react in a rubbery way either time. But unlike when non-armament Hody Jones punched Luffy, sending his head flying and Luffy went “Won’t work! I’m Rubber!”
So when Lucci jabs Luffy in the throat which reacts in an extremely rubbery way and makes him couch a bit, and no one verbalizes that this is odd or noteworthy or some twist on the rules, I really don’t see why this is supposed to serve as a hint to form of armament.
Besides, when the whole scene at galley-La is about establishing a whole brand new concept that is rokushiki in great detail, it would be a bad time to apparently another, wholly different concept with different rules on top of that. The flow of the sequence in Galley La is “here’s Lucci demonstrating how the shigan works on Paulie”à”Here it fails to behave in this way due to Luffys rubbery nature, explicitly called out by Lucci”à”Lucci grows claws, now it works as intended”. Inserting an “actually it also worked the second time, just not in the normal way, or any way that left any visible mark, but it definitely caused some unspecified type of pain through an at this point secret technique” just makes things so insanely, needlessly muddled.
If Lucci really had the ability to cause Luffy “great inexplicable damage” with his regular shigans you’d really think that would come up later when he unleashes a machine-gun barrage at them into Luffys torso and we see the rubbery recoil of each “shot”. Some moment of Luffy getting lasting damage, being in great pain, going “why does this hurt me?” in the same way the concept would otherwise be hammered home. Instead, the only thing that happens is he gets knocked into some crates.
That’s it.
As for “why Luffy is bothered by the attack?”, even a rubberman needs to breathe, and its not like being rubber makes you immune to having an airway forcibly constricted. As seen when Enel restrains Luffy by his throat and Luffy goes “Huerrgh!”. Or when Paulie twists a rope around Luffys throat in 337 and Luffy reacts as if he’s in incredible distress.
As for the idea of CP9 being hakiless goobers…
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@FolhaS:
Another element I dont mind about the rokushiki/haki retcon, CP9's character growth on that arc was about them realizing they were big fish in a small pond.
Most of them were very proud, and they were the ones who kept bragging about being the strongest there were, until they met the Straw Hats who where actually outgrowing their pond at every new adventure.
They managed to be promoted to CP0 because they got stronger after actually having a couple of fights that challanged their world views and limits.
@Jabra:
And honestly, I would have been fine with the CP9 not being haki users, because it's not like they're being played as all-purpose infantry units like the Vice Admirals. They're hitmen working in the shadows, in Paradise. They can pick their battles, they can approach fruit users without the risk of being caught off-guard. Instead, at least in Paradise, the physical 6 forms could have been played as the more useful path for the things they do - considering that haki also takes years to master (and you got to set priorities, even within basic haki training).
The only outlier is Lucci, where it just didn't make any sense at all based on his overall reputation. But I could have lived with Rokougan being played as a special ability similiar to Fishman Karate or the shockwave stuff from Sai, just so he has an option against Logia.
These angles are just so discordant to me. I can’t recall a single thing in the CP9 arc that supports the read of the team as complacent, of them being a work in progress, of them being unseasoned, of all these caveats of them being I guess capable…for the second highest tier of assassins…in the first half of the Grand Line…dealing with mostly civilians, probably (silly overachiever Lucci, you don’t need to be so stronk to deal with simple Iceburgs!). If that had been the angle from the start, it would have GUTTED the notoriety of the antagonists.
The idea of CP9s jurisdiction being limited to the first half of the GL never comes up, and any sort of distinction between the two halves is only introduced at the end of the arc any way, with the notion of “Paradise” coming years later. The CP9 are confident in their strength, yes, but this is never framed as unwarranted, as if its hubris, as I’ve they’ve been slacking off. Quite the contrary. Oda did do the “Big fish in a small pond” point later for the new fishman pirates, where it was extremely explicit.
And its not just Lucci carrying the weight alone either, Spandam considers the team invincible, and when Franky uncuffs Robin Spandam does not go “Oh I guess its no surprise the non-Lucci agents got beaten”.The notion that they were too unseasoned or lacking in Doriki or whatever and this is what held them back from being promoted evoked nowhere, because CP0 was not a thing back then (In fact we have no idea why they’re in CP0 now. There was a cover story which could’ve set it up, but that story was explicitly about the CP9 flipping off the WG and concluded with Spandam and his dad vowing to have them erased so IDK). CP9 were the best of the best, they had their own swanky tower and everything.
The personal strength of the agents are a cornerstone of their identity. CP9 are framed as superhumanly capable MASTERS, they aren’t simple “up and coming red belts”, they’re framed as black belts, going up to a 10th dan Lucci. The only one explicitly highlighted as lacking in training is 1st Dan hobbyist Nero.
Yeah they are covertly operating assassins rather than rank and file infantry, but they’re also superhumanly powerful martial arts experts with flashy, destructive moves. Califa can drag a train cart without breaking a sweat, Blueno does killer cartwheels, Jabra shoots giant wolf-shaped swords and Kaku bisects towers. There was a literal scale of how many mook soldiers a CP9 agent was worth, going up to hundreds for the top agents in their untransformed states. Theres even fighters in the other CPs like Jerry and Wanze, with a clear progression in strength leading to CP9 at the top. Their fighting chops are so evident that I remember people being surprised the CPs weren’t deployed at the Marineford front lines.
Heck, literally only three of the 6 forms are good for stealthy kills –soru, geppou and shigan -, two forms are only useable for if you’ve been found out, and the last one dices up buildings with your legs. Its an arsenal designed for cool martial arts fighting first, assassination second.
When it comes to retcons, I can sort of roll my eyes and go along with them if they don’t rewrite the original meaning of a scene. I don’t believe for a second that Shanks was doing a kingbition blast when chapter 1 was originally published, but even if it would be classified as such now, it would not fundamentally alter the scene.
But trying to filter the CP9 through the haki lens and recasting them as complacent and/or unseasoned second rate fighters lacking in the basic fundamentals of every post-skip fighter is just such a radical departure from what they were in the arc originally that I completely balk at it.