@Triceron:
So first off, let's be clear, because I feel like I'm arguing in circles here and I don't want to get your point wrong.
Are you expressing this as a personal opinion, or as a statement of some pattern that is ultimately defining who joins and who doesn't? I want to be clear because you've been making certain statements that are simply untrue, or are not universally applicable to characters equally, and my point is just to debunk those reasons. If you're just expressing your interpretation of a certain pattern that Oda has outlined, and you are expressing personal beliefs of who you think would have joined and who wouldn't have joined based on your own personal gauge, then I'm fine with you expressing that opinion. I would argue against using 'Oda's pattern' as a reasons to argue why certain characters aren't joining, because my point of view is anyone could join and Oda's patterns doesn't actually prevent any character from potentially joining, it's only a means to categorize the ones who do in a certain framework.
I'm saying that for strawhat members Oda eventually does those things. For the men he has done it before they joined. For the only two women he has done it after they joined.
Point being, no matter what it IS done.
So I will use these two statements you made as a means to illustrate a double standard.
Its not a double standard it is simply a variance in sequence.
You say Carrot could have joined but she didn't. So does that mean she still can't join?
Yes she still can't and won't join. It's over for Carrot. Been that way since Wano started and Oda made her fade in to the background. Oda doesn't have future strawhats around in arcs just to not focus on them and have them do nothing. He would have to start treating her more than a supporting character for me to change my mind.
His bare use of Carrot seems solely to tie off this Pedro sacrificing himself loose end with Peros and w/e is intended with "keep moving onward".
And I would figure you might say she would need to show signs of the Pattern to be able to join. But your explanation above indicates that females could still join while their roles and backstory get fleshed out later
Only as long as the character remains a focus in the following story. Nami didn't disappear during Syrup island. Oda made it a point to feature her betrayal and departure during the Baratie arc. Robin didnt play the background in Skypeia or during the Davy Back fight. Oda focused on her a great deal bringing back in the poneglyphs and then circle back to her personal story when Aokiji showed up.
I guess one thing I'm taking for granted is that with what I'm saying you also have to account for storytelling. Its flow and structure. By being able to realize whats going on the story you can tell which characters actually hold importance to the story currently and for the future. You seem to be looking at what I'm saying as ingrained in poneglyph iron clad rules that must always be followed but not accounting for Oda to have creativity with approach and style.
The process of a character joining the crew is not identical but they all have the same similarities. You cant poke holes in that. There's nothing ironic about it.
and this is even being applied to Yamato now who does not have a strong role or backstory
I don't get how you can say these things when the arc isn't over and on top of that try to compare to Carrot who hasn't been important to the story since WCI.
These two characters are not the same or in similar situations or circumstances.
However if you are going to ever bring up the reasons of Oda's patterns or saying characters like Vivi did not have a dream/role/sad backstory
Cuz she didn't. That's just a fact.
I'd go further to say its obvious to see who is going to join by what I brought up cuz Oda has never introduced two new characters and then gave them all those things for only one to join. Not once.
There's never been a situation where multiple characters ticked all the boxes of the pattern only for one to be a strawhat
Paulie didn't get a flashback, a dream, etc. during Water 7/Enies Lobby along with Franky (and Robin).
When we apply this to Yamato, none of these requisites clearly fit the criteria, because it's all been implied through the story and not confirmed. We don't explicitly know a clear dream outside of wanting to be like Oden, opening the borders and joining Luffys crew. It's still ambiguous whether that's just a short term goal, or an actual dream comparable to other Strawhats.
My response to that remains the same. We'll get answers to those things before the Wano arc is done.
When talking about backstory, we can't really exclude anyone like Carrot or Tama or even Shinobu just because they haven't clearly expressed a role or dream or sad backstory and a definite interest in joining the crew.
We can exclude Carrot cuz Oda isn't treating her like a character that is going to join unlike what he has done with the characters that did join.
Same with Shinobu. Similar to Tama to a lesser extent.
Characters like Robin had zero interest in joining the crew until after Luffy beat the big bad, and joined on a whim. There is no pattern to define how Robin joined the crew. Oda's patterns all apply to how Crewmates fit into the rest of the Strawhats, and isn't to be used as some sort of process of elimination against anyone potentially joining the crew.
The way Robin joined is very similar to Nami. She joined after the big bad was defeated as you just said.
If you want to ignore the similarities that's fine but to say there isn't a pattern would be false.
Playing Devil's Advocate; Vivi, Carrot, Tama and even Shinobu all have potential to be crewmates based on the reasons you outlined for female characters joining the Strawhats if we assume they would join first and get everything else explained later.
Well like i've said before you're not accounting for the story.
Vivi was never going to join.
Neither is Shinobu. Especially based on what I've said. What narrative focus has Shinobu got at all?
I think you're forgetting some things I've said previously. Shinobu has never had a focus in the story in this arc nor is her conflict with the antagonist presented as part of the plot. She is a retainer of the person who has conflict with the antagonist.
This doesn't break Oda's pattern at all.
I think you assumed at some point I said the pattern is the only thing that matters or the only thing that can be considered. The pattern of how characters join is just another thing you can add to the list for why one character is likely to join and why other characters won't.
Its not the only thing.
If Oda doesn't even give the character any focus then it makes no sense to consider them.
Yet you were trying to point out earlier that somehow Vivi was breaking all sorts of patterns which made it clear to you, as a reader, that she wasn't going to join. Your reason was 'I didn't get that vibe'.
Vivi had no dream. Vivi had no backstory. I've said it several times and you're trying to whittle it down to vibe now.
If we're talking about the pattern, Vivi would've joined the crew after Whiskey Peak first then got her dream and flashback during Alabasta. The thing is from the outset Vivi made it very clear she just wanted to save her country. We had multiple arcs to show otherwise and it never happened.
And you're getting that vibe with Yamato, and not with any other character. And I don't disagree with your personal opinion and the vibes your feeling from the narrative. The problem I have is when you go beyond just recognizing a personal interpretation and trying to reason that characters like Vivi or Carrot are failing to fit Oda's pattern
That's cuz Oda has never given Carrot the focus in the story that he has done with characters who have joined.
The closest he came to that was when Carrot got some spotlight during the strawhats escape from Big Mom's territory. But even then she was just one of many taking on the enemy in a series of characters stepping in to allow the crew to escape.
The thing is I don't need to bring up any pattern to exclude Carrot. Its cuz Oda has chosen not to focus on her as a character at all in Wano to let me know she isn't going to be a strawhat.
With Vivi Oda always made her intentions clear within the story. They weren't to become a pirate. Like I said before had she did join that would've been Oda breaking away from the pattern he has established and has continued since.
while Yamato also doesn't fit certain aspects of the same pattern and you just wave it away with further hole-digging explanations.
I'll agree with this IF we get to the next arc and Yamato still hasn't filled out those other parts of the pattern. What's missing is a flashback and I guess for you a more detailed dream.
You're making logical leaps to then say Yamato is unique because he's also a man, or Yamato isn't passive like Vivi and is actively fighting.
I mean it really comes down to how Oda views Yamato. If he views him as a man I believe the flashback will be coming shortly.
Well, so is Carrot.
You mean the fight Oda didn't bother to show at all? Sure.
Like I've said maybe if Oda starts focusing on Carrot I could start applying any pattern to her. Its doubtful that will happen.
So is Tama. So is Shinobu.
LOL Only if you focus on the pattern and nothing else.
But again I never said the pattern and the pattern alone was the only thing that mattered when it comes to who will join.
And all these characters have sad backstories.
Carrot does not.
This is where you're not really focusing on the words being used and interchanging things but it really does matter.
If Shinobu or Tama had a flashback showing their sad backstory and giving explanations for their motivations and dreams you'd have an argument. But they don't so I'd say you're wrong. There are no indications Shinobu will get that at all.
There's also how the characters are being handled in the story that tells me these characters are not on their way to becoming strawhats but you can believe what you want. I'll keep saying they shouldnt be considered.
I'm making an example to show how I think you are twisting your arguments rather than presenting talking points which actually make sense.
These are poor examples based on the assumption that I only consider a pattern for which characters could join. An assumption that is wrong.
Because if you say something like Vivi didn't have a clear role on the ship, then it implies that you think Oda clearly illustrating a role for a potential new crewmate is important.
Vivi didn't have a dream.
That actually holds priority over a role on the ship.
Having a dream is more important.
Yet if Yamato has no role and you're 100% fine with it and make up a reason like 'He's unique because Oda is giving him a lot of focus' or 'He's not a damsel in distress like Vivi, he's professing wanting to leave with Luffy' then you're not addressing the points you made, you're just making new ones to cover your previous holes.
You probably should've just asked how important I view having a role on the ship is.
Maybe you're new to the thread or perhaps confusing someone else's posts for mine but I have said before Robin has proved that a role on the ship can be anything. Before her we didn't know the importance of someone who could read the poneglyph language since its not like pirate crews need assassins.
Would've saved you some time in assuming I think having a role is most important though.
when you admit Yamato is in a completely unique situation that isn't fitting any patterns that Oda has previously established.
I never said this.
I said Yamato is in a unique position in that he can be in one of two categories not that he doesn't fit any patterns. You're kinda making things up now. No need to try and add your opinion in to my statements.
Its pretty simple, if Oda views Yamato as a man he'll follow that pattern and if he views Yamato as a woman then he'll follow the other. Right now to me it seems he views Yamato as a man.
Yamato is breaking all sorts of patterns by being a female who identifies as a man
Maybe to you.
and by being the first person in the entire series to proclaim joining the Strawhats without first having an invitation. So really if you're going to address Yamato in this way, then I think it's dishonest to then use Oda's patterns as a means to gauge any other character for whether they would fit as potential crewmate or not.
You're the one that thinks those things make a difference. Not me.
Yamato being a trans character doesn't change much about the pattern imo. Nor does him saying he wants or will join Luffy after Kaido is defeated. There's no dishonesty on my part in regards to that. Those are your opinions/beliefs.
I can easily continue applying Oda's constant use of a pattern to other characters cuz so far after the 9 characters that have joined he has not broken away from it once.