Maybe there’s a small hope that something revives them, like Marco’s healing powers go crazy or something, and we get our long awaited fight scene but that’s probably wishful thinking :cwy:
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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@Dorobō:
What I am trying to say here is why bother making Page One and Ulti if all they are used for is fodder for Big Mom in the end really.
1. Showing how strong Big Mom is and escalating her threat are valid, given that some readers still see her as a Big Meme after thinks like Franky riding his bike into her or Robin tossing her out the door. So taking a scary character that absolutely wrecked Nami and Usopp and wnet toe to toe with Luffy… and then just wrecking them? That's surprising and interesting and wow does it make Big Mom scary and unpredictable.
(Promising the readers a Nami fight then killing that a few pages later sucks though.)
2.Why are you assuming Oda knew that when he made them?
Oda knows some of the big beats and where its going overall, yes. I'd be surprised if he didn't know what he's going to do to make Momo impressive after spending so much time beating him down.
But to think he'd know every single action beat or plot twist dozens of chapters in advance? That's just not how Oda works. That's not how most writers work unless they have a very specific page/chapter limit they have to stay under, in which case they'll outline and rewrite a lot more heavily in advance... but that's not something you need to do with an ongoing serial with no danger of cancellation..
This is the guy that decided "this random enemy looks kind of like a princess" and turned Vivi into a major character. Or in Water 7 he literally didn't know who the badguys were when he started or who would be important. He just made a ton of dock workers and decided later who would be the surprise villains. Or the supernovas.
It isn't confirmed and we don't know for sure, but given things like Marco's letter being nothing, and the little setup we had with Weevil, it sure SEEMS like Oda had maybe planned to do a little sub arc there at some point but ultimately abandoned it to shave six months off the series and get on with it to Wano.
Oda makes toys and then he plays with them. Even Oda doesn't know how things are going to boil down week to week.
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With for point one, we already know all of this of Big Mom. If readers are using those examples for trying to say she is not a threat after being a near indestructible monster for years, I just feel they don't appreciate the clever ways Oda writes his characters dealing with her. Which mainly amounts to stalling her if anything. This just confirms what we already know of her and wastes a character and challenge Nami really could have used. Ditto for Usopp and Page One too. Hardly interesting or surprising. It was just used to show off Big Mom's new combo. Which could have been used on some more fitting fodder because the price paid really was not worth it in my view.
As for point two, I assume top generals will be handled well? That's what I am trying to get across. Would Fujitora taking out say, Lao G and Senor Pink (like after the set up that Franky would duel him) felt decent? Or would have been just a huge waste?
I rather Oda not bother to put his toys out there if he won't use them well. It would be like ditching BB in favor of Im for the main villain. It would be a waste.
This is a smaller scale issue but as I said, going forward, side villains being handled well is going to be put into question. Just reduced to worthless fodder that other villains or characters handle? I get it, his main leads we like get shafted but we as readers are jerked around a lot in that process too if set up and build up are just thrown away after already being shown. This is again, regardless of if our main heroes deal with them or not. It's just in this case, it sucked that Nami and Usopp don't deal with them and people like myself aren't going to be seeing the point of Ulti and Page One. Sure he probably had better ideas for them when he made them and could have went many ways with them. He just happened to disappoint me with this direction.
He made a big villain group to be a challenge for our heroes except they end up not. They end up hype tools for a character that already has earned all her hype. Was not at all needed.
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I agree. What will Nami use Zeus at?
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What even is this question lol.
Zeus is Nami's powerup. Last I checked Wano isn't One Piece's final arc, so I'm totally baffled why you're only writing the current arc villains that she could use Zeus as an upgraded weapon against.
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I would be more than happy if Nami resumes her versus with Galette.
That's also a best suited vs for Nami's level.
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It's not even close to the first time Oda's done this. Think back to Thriller Bark when we had all those general zombies. That cool four armed one! And specific Zoro and Sanji powered zombies! We could have gotten all sorts of cool match ups for that, months of neat battles against enemies that do not tire and have the spirits of great warriors in them.
Oars just crushed all of them in like a page and they were never mentioned again.
I agree, it's super disappointing that Oda did that big setup with Nami especially with an enemy he's been setting up for months now, and then pulled out the rug on that immediately. Bad form in this case.
But Big Mom being wild card that she is? If she did it to basically any of the others in the same group, that hadn't been getting screen time, it'd be fine.
With for point one, we already know all of this of Big Mom. If readers are using those examples for trying to say she is not a threat after being a near indestructible monster for years, I just feel they don't appreciate the clever ways Oda writes his characters dealing with her.
Have you read this forum? Plenty of people don't take Big Mom seriously, even after her power displays. Because she keeps getting treated like a silly villain that is unpredictable. Characters get convincing hits or stalls off on her repeatedly, or she gets delayed by a cake.
She hasn't been stopped for more than a moment or even hurt at all over the course of hundreds of chapters now… and yet despite that, because of her personality, she doesn't seem like an unstoppable force at all.
SHE'S the one the group worked to throw off the rood and allotted the B-team to, while Kaidou they didn't dare touch and is being left for the main hero to deal with. And that's been the vibe for a decade now. Kaidou is the scary monster you don't cross, Big Mom is... also an emporer, but you can defy and attack her.
If she's feeling like she's turned into a character Robin can solo by throwing her out the room, or because the roof crew managed to throw her off nearly to her death, it's gone wrong, and she needs to reiterate just how strong she is and establish her cred again. Otherwise its going to feel like Kidd is going to solo her and that makes her FEEL weaker... the same way it looked like Luffy was magically going to turn Kaidou into a chump and undervalue all the presence he had. So... Kaidou knocks Luffy out again.
You DO have to keep showing how strong the enemies are so it can feel like something when the heroes beat them, an ebb and flow, its weird if the villain just gets beaten for 20 chapters straight. And unfortunately the enemies they're fighting now are SO strong there's not a lot of ways to demonstrate that against the crew without outright killing them.
In this particular case, it feels like it was a really bad move on Oda's part after so many weeks of setup for Nami and Usopp. But if she'd been thrown into say, Jinbe's fight instead, people wouldn't be as bothered because there's been almost no screentime or buildup or personal grudge for that fight.
It's not in any way a bad tool or a bad storytelling trick... but it was absolutely badly used here in this case.
It's also entirely possible that Oda set out to have Nami and Usopp win those fights, but as he wrote the thing, the characters took on lives of their own, and Oda himself realized there was just no way for them to match up.
I know, that sounds insane, but sometimes in writing that does legit happen. Oda made Ulti too credible and dangerous, and wrote himself into a corner. We can all come up with ideas and theories on how such a fight could have been handled to give our underdogs credible victories, and its stupid to pretend Oda couldn't come up with those exact same BS wins.... but maybe Oda felt that would be wrong in this case.
Other possibilities include that Oda is going to crush the whole crew shortly and give them a short defeat. Or that the dino siblings are still going to get up and have Nami and Usopp deal with them in a much weakened (and unsatisfying) way that Oda hasn't realized would be bad for the readers... Or they'll be used to demonstrate awakening or...
Or maybe the plan is for the combined crew to beat Big Mom later and so having her chase Nami and Usopp for a bit is important. Maybe this frees those two up to do something else that really needs doing. Who knows. There's lots of potential future reasons for why he did it.But it might be as simple as he needed to deal with Big Mom, Tama, and Zeus plotlines, and the chaos he'd written naturally evolved into the encounter we got.
Like I said before, while Oda certainly plans the broad strokes way in advance, the small beats week to week are made up on the fly. He might not have planned any of the last two chapters and that's just where the story organically went as he moved pieces around..
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It would be alright for Page One I guess, he didn't take that much damage the whole time.
But Ulti has taken Luffy's headbutts, Yamato's club, twice electrocuted by Nami and took Big Mom's ultimate fatality.
If Ulti raises after all of that, it only means the likes of Who'sWho and Sasaki are even more durable and could mean Franky is not defeating Sasaki neither, and someone help Jinbro pls.
It'll be just one corner after another.
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Oh, I get it. All this comes from the thought that Maser Cannon was BM's ultimate finisher lol. After seeing that Sovereign attack, I doubt Maser Cannon was her big attack. BM is not using her big attack on Ulti.
It's like Luffy pulling out G4 on Caesar or Hody.
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The only option that won't make Big Mom look bad while still giving us a good sibling fight is a desperate awakening. Ulti & P1 aren't Warlords or upper top commanders, but it's possible that Zoans can achieve that state without as much proficiency (but maybe other drawbacks, see Impeldown?).
It may sound counterintuitive that Usopp and Nami will have to beat opponents that are even stronger and more resilient, but on the other hand they would be fighting completely mindless beasts.
Like, base Ulti and P1 are too strong for them, but also too smart for their bag of tricks. They might not be the most clever fighters and especially Ulti is mostly driven by impulse, but she did learn and acted accordingly: take out the dog first so their speed is crippled, forsee her attack & dodge, restrain her hands so Nami can't conjure a storm - and then go for the kill.An awakened uncontrolled Ulti wouldn't be able to pull that, she would be a raging bull mindlessly headbutting into things. In that state the goal wouldn't even be to beat them, but to restrain them for the rest of the war (like Sasaki pre-war).
Of course I'm heavily reaching here, but I just can't imagine that what we have right now is it. What would Nami and Usopp even do while everyone else is still fighting (or didn't even start their own fight, like Sanji?).
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Each of the Homies do cause considerable damage on their prey.
The three of them combined into a piercing blast is overkill.
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You make the groups big because it makes it more of a challenge for the heroes to overcome, and it fleshes out the world. And Oda is nutsy creative and wants to draw fresh interesting things that he hasn't drawn a thousand times.
It's what happens to EVERY long runner author, no matter how much they love the original cast, they get bored with them after 10, 20 years, and just personally find it more interesting to play with new toys in the sandbox. You see it here, in Usagi Yojimbo, in Gold Digger, in Savage Dragon… you see it in Dragonball and Naruto. Eventually they can't help it, it HAS to be something new.
This sucks for readers who have spent decades becoming attached to the leads and want them to be focused on heavily, but its almost inevitable for a super long running series... the author may keep one or two super main characters prominent because those are the ones they most love or the narrative truly demands it, but... the other early toys get put aside and then pulled out when they're fun again.
Artists don't like drawing the same thing over and over and over again... and can you blame them? Look at any comic that has a decade+ run with a single artist/writer, and judge how much they shake it up over time.
So Oda stuffs the story with OTHER characters and new interesting things to do and the island format gives him a lot of flexibility in that regard... but the leads get a bit shafted as a result.
You've pretty much stated something that I and many others have said for years.
The Straw Hat Pirates will always be at the core of the story but writing the same characters for over two decades gets a little dull, no matter how many different locations you put them in. The crew also needs to remain simple and straight-forward in order to be easily accessible to casual fans. Therefore, other characters need to take up the spotlight so Oda can write the more-offbeat, unconventional personalities to make things interesting.
It's why I didn't make a big fuss when half the crew was absent in Dressrosa and Whole Cake Island. 6-7 years is small in the grand length of this story.I've certainly been assuming the above for years, but the unique "problem" of One Piece is that Oda can't really just permanently bench/phase out his Yamchas or Rock Lees due to the format of his story - All of Luffys crewmembers are locked in for the entirety of the story due to being crewmembers, and simply can't get abandoned. So you end up with the disconnect of someone like Franky being there, physically present, appearing in spreads and volume covers and whatnot because everyone knows that he's formally a major character … but he's just not really getting anything to do.
And, compounding the issue, you have the fact that the straw hats have been seperated so long, in RL time - first with the Kuma-enabled split, but then also the 7 year stint of the crew not being fully assembled from Dressrosa onwards. There was Fishman Island and Punk hazard for the crew to function as normal after the timeskip, but Onagashima pretty much serves as another "reunion" moment after the much larger 7 year split, even if it isn't directly treated as such. Which makes it that much more grating when Straw Hats are set up to do something and then don't get to - like its been what 270 chapters since Usopp sniped Sugar and he's practically done nothing since, he's starved for any sort of moment. Which again is understandable after writing a character so long, especially a trickery-based one like Usopp, but its still jarring since, well, Usopp is still here.
For what its worth though, I do think Onagashima has delivered a bunch of moments that showcase of fun the Straw Hats are. Robin and Brook rescuing Sanji, Frankys bike, Choppers doctor moment. Recently the whole Sanji-carrying-Zoro-in-bandages bit is hilarious, and is so precicely because it carries 2+ decades of character interaction between those two; you could theoretically insert some Scabbards or whatnot in the same scenario, but it wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable. In the opposite direction, if you had slottet in monster point Chopper instead of hajrudin against Machvise and otherwise left things completely the same, I instantly would have cared more about that scene.
The "old toys" simply being used at all is gratifying.
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Greg if it’s true that Avalo Pizarro is Kaido’s former King, do you think that means he has a dinosaur fruit too? Maybe the T-Rex fruit?
Also any idea why they call Shiryu “Shiryu of the rain”?
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Gonna spoiler tag this so the page doesn't get too bloated.
! @Robby:
! > It's not even close to the first time Oda's done this. Think back to Thriller Bark when we had all those general zombies. That cool four armed one! And specific Zoro and Sanji powered zombies! We could have gotten all sorts of cool match ups for that, months of neat battles against enemies that do not tire and have the spirits of great warriors in them.Oars just crushed all of them in like a page and they were never mentioned again.
! I get your point and I can see you get how it's different here. I'm just going to add that there is a two fold element to Oars and the General Zombies getting shafted. The GZ were put to waste after a bit of build up and potential but in return we got more hype of Oars who already had more build up and hype than them. While at the same time it led to the crew fighting both him and Moria. Which was fun, interesting and tense.
! We could have had a long series of one on ones instead of the huge group battle or do both but that's a lot. Especially after Water 7's long duels. But in that case I'll say the price of the GZ getting crushed was worth the price of something unique like the crew vs Oars and Moria if it had to be one or the other. So you won't see me mourn them as much. Also they are not the big second to final arc (so to speak) villains here like the Beast Pirates are.
! > But Big Mom being wild card that she is? If she did it to basically any of the others in the same group, that hadn't been getting screen time, it'd be fine.
! All we really needed was her to take out one or more of the Numbers. Maybe even just a one chapter introduced super mega Number or Beast Pirate that just shows up, wrecks shop and then gets Big Mom's wrath. Shonen battle manga does these sort of things all the time.
! > Have you read this forum? Plenty of people don't take Big Mom seriously, even after her power displays. Because she keeps getting treated like a silly villain that is unpredictable. Characters get convincing hits or stalls off on her repeatedly, or she gets delayed by a cake.She hasn't been stopped for more than a moment or even hurt at all over the course of hundreds of chapters now… and yet despite that, because of her personality, she doesn't seem like an unstoppable force at all.
! I get where you're coming from but I mainly disagree with the notion she is not a threat because of her personality. Yes she needs more ups than downs but really? She can't be stopped so far in story by anything but outsmarting or stalling her. But that's just mainly personal opinion here. A lot of folks are extra harsh on both her and Kaido.
! > SHE'S the one the group worked to throw off the rood and allotted the B-team to, while Kaidou they didn't dare touch and is being left for the main hero to deal with. And that's been the vibe for a decade now. Kaidou is the scary monster you don't cross, Big Mom is… also an emporer, but you can defy and attack her.If she's feeling like she's turned into a character Robin can solo by throwing her out the room, or because the roof crew managed to throw her off nearly to her death, it's gone wrong, and she needs to reiterate just how strong she is and establish her cred again. Otherwise its going to feel like Kidd is going to solo her and that makes her FEEL weaker... the same way it looked like Luffy was magically going to turn Kaidou into a chump and undervalue all the presence he had. So... Kaidou knocks Luffy out again.
You DO have to keep showing how strong the enemies are so it can feel like something when the heroes beat them, an ebb and flow, its weird if the villain just gets beaten for 20 chapters straight. And unfortunately the enemies they're fighting now are SO strong there's not a lot of ways to demonstrate that against the crew without outright killing them.
! I get what you're saying, it's just not really worth the price of two generals of Kaido's crew who have been named, set up and are perfect battles for two of our crew members here. Someone else can be the dummy that gets her wrath. Hell if she is about to crush Kidd in their fight, we already have Kidd. And if Kidd does win here? People on here will be bitching about "Big Meme" regardless of her getting her cred back by taking out chances for our crew to matter in the, terms of narrative that is, penultimate arc and battle.
! And I really didn't feel like Luffy was about to take out Kaido. The people that do, aren't paying attention or get how Oda handles his main villains and their fights. Add in the rush of wanting Luffy to get into a bout for the big chapter 1000 and this should be more obvious.
! > In this particular case, it feels like it was a really bad move on Oda's part after so many weeks of setup for Nami and Usopp. But if she'd been thrown into say, Jinbe's fight instead, people wouldn't be as bothered because there's been almost no screentime or buildup or personal grudge for that fight.It's not in any way a bad tool or a bad storytelling trick… but it was absolutely badly used here in this case.
! It would still be a waste when we have Jinbe getting his first real one on one as a crew member though. The Flying Six don't need to be wasted in such a way after having their duels set up.
! So I get what you're saying here and don't truly disagree, I just don't see the point in wasting away our crew's set up fights here. This is the big last stand even when we take into account a couple more arcs between now and end game. The crew should get to shrine once more before the end in my view.
! > It's also entirely possible that Oda set out to have Nami and Usopp win those fights, but as he wrote the thing, the characters took on lives of their own, and Oda himself realized there was just no way for them to match up.I know, that sounds insane, but sometimes in writing that does legit happen. Oda made Ulti too credible and dangerous, and wrote himself into a corner. We can all come up with ideas and theories on how such a fight could have been handled to give our underdogs credible victories, and its stupid to pretend Oda couldn't come up with those exact same BS wins…. but maybe Oda felt that would be wrong in this case.
! Oh as an amateur writer I fully get this.
! It's just as a writer he can also write himself out of this. Tough as it may be. Ulti is tough. Tough enough to take on base form Luffy without much effort and her fruit powers make her even stronger. Nami really just needed to use Zeus, who was there. Which not that long ago, she used to hurt Big Mom who we know is far above Ulti. She once took out Doublefinger who was far above Nami in terms of powers so yes we know he can do it.
! So I am going to say he was wrong here and could have done better in the moment.
! > Other possibilities include that Oda is going to crush the whole crew shortly and give them a short defeat. Or that the dino siblings are still going to get up and have Nami and Usopp deal with them in a much weakened (and unsatisfying) way that Oda hasn't realized would be bad for the readers… Or they'll be used to demonstrate awakening or...
Or maybe the plan is for the combined crew to beat Big Mom later and so having her chase Nami and Usopp for a bit is important. Maybe this frees those two up to do something else that really needs doing. Who knows. There's lots of potential future reasons for why he did it.
! Time will tell. I feel Page One and Ulti are going to be looked back on as wastes even if later he makes it up by having Nami and Usopp do good stuff in a bit or there is other reasons for it. But again time will tell.
! > But it might be as simple as he needed to deal with Big Mom, Tama, and Zeus plotlines, and the chaos he'd written naturally evolved into the encounter we got.
! More than likely yeah. Just unfortunate it wasted some characters and chances for our heroes to shine as well as our time invested on it at the moment.
! > Like I said before, while Oda certainly plans the broad strokes way in advance, the small beats week to week are made up on the fly. He might not have planned any of the last two chapters and that's just where the story organically went as he moved pieces around..
! Of course. It just won't always hit right with readers 100% of the time, which is alright in most cases. This will come down to what happens later and as we look back on it. I am just saying at the moment, Ulti and Page One mainly feel like wastes of time if in the end, they just serve to be fodder for Big Mom. Not what they started as and they are fun sure but I expected more out of them and the set up we got with them vs Nami and Usopp only to….. not get anything out of it really. I don't think it's an unfair position to take in being disappointed by this right now and feeling like this is a time waster.
The sum up is yeah, this sucked, lots of things can happen later sure but it still sucks and feels like a waste of time and it will now take even more effort to make up for it. -
Yes. In short, I 100% agree that the Ulti situation was a waste and a letdown.
At the same time, I see how Oda might have arrived there. ANd a different execution of the same idea at a different place might have been okay. Just… not here.
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How are people in Japan reacting to Big Mom taking out Ulti and Page One? And how will that effect Oda’s writing going forward?
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I guess I never respected Ulti/ Page one strength wise so them being use as some great hype for Yonko strength seemed like an odd choice. If that was the case I would expect a quick dispatch of Drake strength wise because worst gen captain or numbers because size.
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Before act 3 ends, we will see Ulti awaken. She’s being carried by Page One and gets happy to see him. Ulti wants to go after Big Mom, but Page One says they must go after Usopp and Nami, who must be nearby. Ulti then gets on her own feet to chase them.
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I don't know how the board comes to a conclusion that Ulti is out of commission when the arc haven't even ended yet.
There's really no way they are shafted in a single panel what with all the set up.
Page one was the only headliner that was active in act 1 and had a fight with Sanji, screentime was dedicated to him and that had to pay off.
The six headliners is already a limited gallery for the villains and there's no reason to think that Oda would plan them out to be shafted like that, that is just not how he handles his character.I don't have any concrete justification for why I believe Ulti will come back up after taking a literal laser in the stomach but this is One piece and she has a tough fruit. Nami and Usopp against P1 and Ulti will still happen in my eyes and whatever that happened before was Oda needing the damages to scale the two headliners down for Nami and Usopp to believably win against them.
Oda explicitly made Ulti's character stand out as the cheeky brat against Kaidou and also had her be the only one that fought against Luffy for a while. Even if he wasted that zombies in Thriller bark, this is in no way the same. Those zombie generals were clearly not as important characters as Maria's commanders and cool character designs doesn't mean much if the author's intention was never to shine the spotlight on them.
There's really no way they are down for the count especially if we are all reading the same series here.
Really, the only time when Oda gave his villains that he intentionally make stand out an unsatisfying end was with that Octopus swordsman in FI and that's really about it.
And even then I would argue that's not really a fair case because the entire rogue gallery then was shit anyway.I would even argue that Oda is a lot more predictable than he is organic. Even if the whole process of getting to where he wants the match up to be is chaos, unpredictable, and messy, the final part is exactly what he wanted it or what can be predicted. One Piece is fun because the process to get there is often a mess, but the final sprint and destination is always the same and has always been the same.
Except of course when it doesn't involve the straw hats.I still believe the straw hats will be part of taking down all of the headliners and King and Queen despite current circumstances saying it is impossible because that has always been the case, the primary antagonists have to be taken down by the straw hats, even with assistance, it has to be them. I'll go out a limb and say I have a strong feeling that Zoro will be back with whatever powers that was used to heal the scabbard and be the one who takes down King.
It's predictable in this case because he won't let Macro be the one or any of the scabbards be the key to taking down members of the main antagonist group and that's not entirely organic because his writing has and always been to have a straw hat match up against a villain and be the final push to the win.
The only time he has gone off that rail is in dressrosa with Diamante but that was intentionally so. And people can't really say the same with WCI, considering the egg guy was never stated out to be a main villain in the group.
All the "two panel spread" villains will have a 90% chance of being defeated with straw hats being a primary reason if the character rooster matches (when it doesn't, you get dressrosa). With the 10% chance being unless that straw hat is Robin.We only get the illusion of side characters not being the straw hats beating key villains because for the previous two arcs, the crew were split so side characters get to shine either through sacrificial play (Pedro) or being completely abysmal in personalities (Bartholomew) but if the whole crew is here, we can all bet that they will take down or be the key to taking down the main gang.
Of course, I might be wrong and completely speaking out of my arse so I guess I'll come back in a year with lower self esteem or something, I don't know.
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What if Ulti and Page One were never intended to be Usopp and Nami’s opponents… but rather, simply fodder for Big Mom to showcase how powerful she is?
That would make Nami and Usopp’s eventual upset over Big Mom that much sweeter.
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Speaking of collected damage.
It appears that Apoo is next in line, he's taken a Mecha Punch from Kidd, Cool Pose Slashing from Zoro and been bitten by Dory.
He should be at his limit definitely, Drake is going to finish him off next.
It would also fulfill the purpose that The Numbers are free to be controlled by someone else.
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BM attacking Ulti and Page 1 reminds me of when Sengoku said that Rocks crewmates were killing each other constantly. I doubt either are dead, but I doubt Kaido would be that pissed when crewmembers used to kill each other within the Rocks crew. He knows BM well and her attacking 2 of his subordinates for her reasons is a lil similar to Kaido killing Higurashi for interfering with his fight with Oden.
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I don't know how the board comes to a conclusion that Ulti is out of commission
It's likely that she isn't.
And in a way, that's one of the flavors that would leave the worst taste in my mouth because of what it says about Mom.
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It's likely that she isn't.
And in a way, that's one of the flavors that would leave the worst taste in my mouth because of what it says about Mom.
Can you elaborate more on how it'd reflect badly on BM? You haven't expressed this same thought with Kaido.
Kaido fought 14 different people and all off them got up and are/were still kicking but you seem to be disgusted with P1 and Ulti getting up for some reason even though ancient Zoans have been repeatedly stressed to have an incredibly fast recovery rate while the characters Kaido fought are just regular people in that department.
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I wouldn't even be surprised if Kinemon gets up from that super nasty hit from last chapter
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Its been three main villains going down in a row in each of the last three chapters
That happens every arc, and they don't get up again.
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Can you elaborate more on how it'd reflect badly on BM? You haven't expressed this same thought with Kaido.
Kaido fought 14 different people and all off them got up and are/were still kicking but you seem to be disgusted with P1 and Ulti getting up for some reason even though ancient Zoans have been repeatedly stressed to have an incredibly fast recovery rate while the characters Kaido fought are just regular people in that department.
Page One and Ulti already had prior damage from several different sources before Big Mom finished them off. Page One for example was out of breath for chasing Nami and Usopp around and took two direct explosions seconds before Big Mom's punch.
Meanwhile, the people who fought Kaido were at full strength and stamina. Oda even made a plot point of havng Sanji and Jinbe fight for Luffy to preserve his strength.
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What Oda did was a bit like if a running back made a perfect run, got past all defenders, nothing betwenn him and the end zone and then he started showboating, lost his pants and fell on his face. Like sure maybe you shape up, take it seriously and make every play after that but the highlight reel people remember will still be that image of your bare ass with your nose in the turf. Do what you will but there is no undo button to these things
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This post is deleted!
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Page One and Ulti already had prior damage from several different sources before Big Mom finished them off. Page One for example was out of breath for chasing Nami and Usopp around and took two direct explosions seconds before Big Mom's punch.
Meanwhile, the people who fought Kaido were at full strength and stamina. Oda even made a plot point of havng Sanji and Jinbe fight for Luffy to preserve his strength.
While true, I am starting to think that recovering from those attacks could finally give the Zoan class a much needed niche among ability users.
Because let's be real, the only thing they have going for them are looks. No one in the series ever needed to eat a Zoan to be super strong or super fast or super durable, they have no unique selling points. Maybe some minor perks, if that.
Hell, even some of the Gifters gained some useful skills, like Holdem being able to breath fire (…how??) or Babanuki's air blast.It's difficult to sell non-mythic Zoans as useful assets, but Oda is obviously trying to do exactly that with the Beast Pirates' lineup. But again, it isn't working because no one ever needed to eat a Zoan to be this physically strong.
Like Apoo can tango equally with Hybrid Drake - even without using his powerful Paramecia! The most useful Beast Pirate, at the moment, is freaking Bao Huang. And guess what, she's a Paramecia.Edit:
Lolz, apparently Bao Huang is a Smile. And the useful aspect of her ability is based on an unrelated technology. God dammit, Zoans!
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Page One and Ulti already had prior damage from several different sources before Big Mom finished them off. Page One for example was out of breath for chasing Nami and Usopp around and took two direct explosions seconds before Big Mom's punch.
P1 and Ulti only received superficial injuries before they were attacked by BM. They were nearly full health.
Meanwhile, the people who fought Kaido were at full strength and stamina. Oda even made a plot point of havng Sanji and Jinbe fight for Luffy to preserve his strength.
Luffy, Zoro and Kid sustained damage and exherted a good amount of energy before reaching the rooftop. Even the scabbards sustained damage before fully fighting Kaido when they fell off the building.
Still the scabbards were still beaten to a pulp by Kaido and they still got up.
Kaido directly knocked Luffy out with ragnarok and he still got up and then knocked him out again which he will get back up from.
He directly hit Zoro (Who has severely injured by Hakai) and Law with a CoC enhanced thunder bagua in his hybrid form and Zoro still wasn't knocked out and is likely to fight again and Law got back up from it and wasn't knocked out either.
I'm just trying to understand how Ulti and P1 getting back up is anymore unacceptable than the above examples and makes BM look bad when it happened to Kaido x10 with no complaints
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Ulti was electrocuted twice and got smacked by Yamato's kanabo right in the face.
Those aren't superficial injuries, and smaller villains don't usually collect that much damage.
Kanjuro had been gravely wonded earlier too, do you also expect Kanjuro to wake up agaain?
Apoo has recieved considerable damage from Kidd, Zoro and Drake, it wouldn't surprise me if he's defeated next due to him being at his limit already.
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P1 and Ulti only received superficial injuries before they were attacked by BM. They were nearly full health.
No, they weren't. Both were clearly wheezing from the latest chapters. A sign of exhaustion.
Plus, they both took attacks from Luffy and Yamato beforehand. Ulti alone was slammed by Luffy, clobbered by Yamato (which was enough to cause internal bleeding since she vomitted blood), chomped by Komachiyo, shocked by Nami twice and then finally shot down by Big Mom, all while chasing two SH throughout the island. It's clear they were slowly whittled down.
Luffy, Zoro and Kid sustained damage and exherted a good amount of energy before reaching the rooftop. Even the scabbards sustained damage before fully fighting Kaido when they fell off the building.
Still the scabbards were still beaten to a pulp by Kaido and they still got up.
Kaido directly knocked Luffy out with ragnarok and he still got up and then knocked him out again which he will get back up from.
He directly hit Zoro (Who has severely injured by Hakai) and Law with a CoC enhanced thunder bagua in his hybrid form and Zoro still wasn't knocked out and is likely to fight again and Law got back up from it and wasn't knocked out either.
I'm just trying to understand how Ulti and P1 getting back up is anymore unacceptable than the above examples and makes BM look bad when it happened to Kaido x10 with no complaints
The Supernova are way beyond the levels of Ulti and Page One. Their endurance is understandable, especially Luffy who just out-endures anything and spent weeks in hard labor.
And as was said, the Scabbards were tended up from their fight with Kaido, so they were allowed to recover a bit. I also think it's laughable you think a two-story fall is enough to list as significant injury, especially when every Scabbard was using CoA in that moment.
In the end, Page One and Ulti are minor villains. They're not going to receive the same treatment as the other major players. It's why Doflamingo can endure all sorts of bullshit while his subordinates all got defeated in single chapters.
Ulti by herself has received more damage than Doublefinger and Kalifa put together. Those people were defeated in two-three hits tops. That's already impressive for the usual officer.
Heck, there are main villains who have gone down with less.
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Wouldn't the fact that Luffy is clearly the obvious candidate for being 'Joy Boy' be precisely the reason why he might not be? I.e it's so obvious because Oda is intentionally misleading readers into thinking Luffy = Joy Boy when it is in fact someone?
Oda doesn't seem to want to be predictable so I feel like it may all be a red herring and Joy Boy is actually someone else like Momonosuke. There's certainly quite a few things in the manga which tell us Momonosuke is a special boy beyond just being Oden's son.
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Greg do you have an idea about what voice Momo was hearing this chapter?
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After over 200 chapters of absolute dominance over the rest of the cast and failure from absolutely everyone at damaging her, I don't feel like one or two dinosaurs surviving her attacks is what will kill BM's hype for me.I still bet on her if she fought any non-yonkou character. Heck, I'd bet on her against Shanks too. Against Blackbeard I'd bet on him for plot reasons, though she is likely currently stronger. And Kaido would be the favorite against her because the story said he's the strongest, but she has looked more impressive than him so far.I guess not caring about power scaling that much is a great position to be in. I've been reading this manga for 14 years and seen numerous people drop it because they couldn't endure not getting perfectly consistent power levels, but I's not very strict about it myself.
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Greg do you have an idea about what voice Momo was hearing this chapter?
More than an idea.
Can you elaborate more on how it'd reflect badly on BM?
I don't think anyone here would argue that Big Mom necessarily intended a killing blow. She could have. And it's within her personality to have the mind to do so. (Even though she'll probably be fam one day) But the point is, she absolutely should have been aiming to do a, "Stay the FU** down!!!" attack. If she has an ounce of battle sense and her motivation to protect Tama was true, she should have made sure she hit Ulti with something she wouldn't soon be getting up from without some serious medical assistance and down time.
It's not about making her look tough/weak.
It's that it would make her appear as something far, far worse.
Incompetent.
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I don't think Momo is Joy Boy because of Shirahoshi's bond with Luffy and the way the legend and PG details were explained.
1 Neptune has mentioned that him and his predecessors are privy to a legend that either is part of the PG message or just provides more context to the PG.
2 Neptune said that Joy Boy did not have the ability to command the Sea Kings (649). This specifically doesn't cancel out Momo from being Joy Boy to be clear.
3 The way Luffy and Shirahoshi got along, he ended up promising her and it felt similar to the promise described between the old princess and Joy Boy, even tho the details of the promise aren't available. (653)
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More than an idea.
Does this mean you have a full blown theory or is it one of those things you intended to write on your collumn until the editors cut it out 'cause it's too close to the truth?
(currently my two cents are on the Mountain God, Momo's dad old pal. It would be a nice circle)Btw, I've always wondered, since you work with the editoral department, do you get an early copy of Jump, like the editors and authors do, or you just have to go buy it every monday like the rest of the kids?
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I don't think anyone here would argue that Big Mom necessarily intended a killing blow. She could have. And it's within her personality to have the mind to do so. (Even though she'll probably be fam one day) But the point is, she absolutely should have been aiming to do a, "Stay the FU** down!!!" attack. If she has an ounce of battle sense and her motivation to protect Tama was true, she should have made sure she hit Ulti with something she wouldn't soon be getting up from without some serious medical assistance and down time.
It's not about making her look tough/weak.
It's that it would make her appear as something far, far worse.
Incompetent.
So this is based on what you feel she should have done and not necessarily what she intended to do?
From my point of view she was simply retaliating for what was done or what she thought was done. She thought P1 might have been involved in the destruction of Okobore town she she punched him hard. She was mad that Ulti hit Tama so she repayed her for that. It wasn't to "protect" her specifically.
There wasn't anything indicating that her intentions was to make sure they stayed down for a certain amount of time so it can't be incompetent of her if they did eventually get up . At most we only have the evidence to claim her goal was to knock them out, which she did. If she truly wanted to make sure they didn't get up she would have sliced off their heads or went for the kill or something.
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Does this mean you have a full blown theory or is it one of those things you intended to write on your collumn until the editors cut it out 'cause it's too close to the truth?
(currently my two cents are on the Mountain God, Momo's dad old pal. It would be a nice circle)Btw, I've always wondered, since you work with the editoral department, do you get an early copy of Jump, like the editors and authors do, or you just have to go buy it every monday like the rest of the kids?
Greg does get the chapters early like the rest of editorial. I believe he gets them before spoilers start leaking, but I don't know how much sooner.
And yes, also gets accidentally spoiled with column guesses.
Clarifying WHY he might know something might be a spoiler in and of itself, even if he's vague, so if he's giving a coy response, I wouldn't expect more of an answer on that particular topic for a while.
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Btw, I've always wondered, since you work with the editoral department, do you get an early copy of Jump, like the editors and authors do, or you just have to go buy it every monday like the rest of the kids?
What Robby said. Plus…I think enough time has passed and I've proven myself to those who count most so I feel comfortable being slightly more translucent.
Although as long as OP is being published I won't not go into specifics about when I read it, I will say that I can never be spoiled by the internet and I regularly see JUMP before the public but that's not necessarily when I first read a chap. More than once I've read a chapter while the ink was still drying.
So this is based on what you feel she should have done and not necessarily what she intended to do?
From my point of view she was simply retaliating for what was done or what she thought was done. She thought P1 might have been involved in the destruction of Okobore town she she punched him hard. She was mad that Ulti hit Tama so she repayed her for that. It wasn't to "protect" her specifically.
There wasn't anything indicating that her intentions was to make sure they stayed down for a certain amount of time so it can't be incompetent of her if they did eventually get up . At most we only have the evidence to claim her goal was to knock them out, which she did. If she truly wanted to make sure they didn't get up she would have sliced off their heads or went for the kill or something.
You do a great job of presenting your point. I disagree, but I still respect how you did that while having a discussion, rather than internet tit-for-tat. A rarity and I love seeing that.
I believe that Mom's anger is no different from Luffy's anger towards Zoro in Whiskey Peak.
If I recall correctly (no, not rushing to check) that's one of the few times Luffy said he'd 'kill' someone. Even if I'm wrong, the point stands that he wanted to seriously harm Zoro. Mom's feeling is the same here. A kindness that was paid was threatened by an outside force and Mom intended to right that wrong. She saw how Ulti treated Tama and she intended to show her what for. Going by what we know from even our own heroes, that attack should have been intended to leave Ulti in traction. And if it wasn't, that's severely incompetent on Mom's part.
I would agree that the feeling isn't the same for Page-One. That felt way more like a 'get outta my way'. The Ulti attack though was loaded with feels and that should have, by all means, been intended to break every bone in her damn body.
Even if what we have to go by in the manga doesn't support that (I believe it does) then Oda failed by making it anything other than that by making Mom 'forgiving' enough for a discretion.
The debts of kindness among the Emperors are not to be taken lightly. When their own is betrayed, they should unleash hell. Anything less and they're not worthy of the title.
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Didn't Big Mom try to kill Tama 2 minutes later? So much for debt of kindness
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Wouldn't the fact that Luffy is clearly the obvious candidate for being 'Joy Boy' be precisely the reason why he might not be? I.e it's so obvious because Oda is intentionally misleading readers into thinking Luffy = Joy Boy when it is in fact someone?
Oda doesn't seem to want to be predictable so I feel like it may all be a red herring and Joy Boy is actually someone else like Momonosuke. There's certainly quite a few things in the manga which tell us Momonosuke is a special boy beyond just being Oden's son.
[qimg]https://i.ibb.co/xMw3yFy/E1x-PK7p-XMAYu-QQC-1.jpg[/qimg]
It’s not unlikely that Momo is the second king of the Sea Kings. Joy Boy being a third party.
Joy Boy made friends with both kings, same as Luffy. Joy Boys name and Luffy’s ability to befriend everyone do fit together.
So Luffy becoming Joy Boy is highly likely. -
You do a great job of presenting your point. I disagree, but I still respect how you did that while having a discussion, rather than internet tit-for-tat. A rarity and I love seeing that.
I believe that Mom's anger is no different from Luffy's anger towards Zoro in Whiskey Peak.
If I recall correctly (no, not rushing to check) that's one of the few times Luffy said he'd 'kill' someone. Even if I'm wrong, the point stands that he wanted to seriously harm Zoro. Mom's feeling is the same here. A kindness that was paid was threatened by an outside force and Mom intended to right that wrong. She saw how Ulti treated Tama and she intended to show her what for. Going by what we know from even our own heroes, that attack should have been intended to leave Ulti in traction. And if it wasn't, that's severely incompetent on Mom's part.
I would agree that the feeling isn't the same for Page-One. That felt way more like a 'get outta my way'. The Ulti attack though was loaded with feels and that should have, by all means, been intended to break every bone in her damn body.
Even if what we have to go by in the manga doesn't support that (I believe it does) then Oda failed by making it anything other than that by making Mom 'forgiving' enough for a discretion.
The debts of kindness among the Emperors are not to be taken lightly. When their own is betrayed, they should unleash hell. Anything less and they're not worthy of the title.
I wholeheartedly agree that this was a huge mistake on Oda's part and that it shouldn't have happened but now that it has I can't bring myself to treat it differently than anything else that's happened concerning characters getting up when they logically shouldn't have (assuming it happens) and the way BM's character has been already been portrayed. I think it's the best outcome with this situation. A lot of fans already dislike the character and Oda has no problems making her look incompetent or goofy if the plot demands so nothing would really change. Nami & Usopp can get their fights while BM's reputation more or less remains the same. I just think the Ancient Zoan recovery ability is an easy way to explain why they'd potentially get up faster than anyone should be able to. It's not completely satisfactory but it's a valid in-verse reason.
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Didn't Big Mom try to kill Tama 2 minutes later? So much for debt of kindness
It always gets me when people drop these 1-2 sentence poorly thought through comments as if they've dropped a mic….
And why is that?
Why did Mom attempt to kill her?
Did Oda put a reason in there or was it something that just happened 'because'?
Those of us who read through and understand that Oda clearly and deliberately made a show of her motivation know the answer to these questions.
From Mom's perspective, Tama was betraying her kindness for the enemy.
This fits within everything we know about her. Her tipping point and trust is obviously at a significantly lower level than Luffy's. This makes sense due to her age/experience. (Though Luffy drew a conclusion pretty damn fast at Whiskey Peak though I feel he learned from that).
Basically, you don't betray the trust of an Emperor.
....Unless....You're Whitebeard. And that's why Whitebeard was mfing Whitebeard. Bc even when he was betrayed, he still believed in his crew/allies. Any coincidence that WB was portrayed as a hero and Mom a villain?
Yes, those debts are solid. Just don't betray them or you're cut.
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It always gets me when people drop these 1-2 sentence poorly thought through comments as if they've dropped a mic….
Hey man dunking on Greg is a time honored tradition. Why people who may claim go be archeologists have deduced that Greg dunking took place as early as the second server migration.
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It’s not unlikely that Momo is the second king of the Sea Kings. Joy Boy being a third party.
That's impossible since the kings the Sea Kings mentioned were not born yet, but Momonosuke already was.
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That's impossible since the kings the Sea Kings mentioned were not born yet, but Momonosuke already was.
I'm not sure about that, they talked about Shirahoshis birth. They mentioned someone other in a distant sea, not necessarily their birth.
The Sea Kings have been waiting for their kings meeting for so long and when Shirahoshi and Luffy met and were right in front of them, they don't notice or mention anything?
Isn't that a bit strange?
Momo is special with his ability to communicate with Zunesha. And he has a bigger role, as we learned in the past chapters.Why do the Kozuki have the ability to hear the voice of all things? So far the only people besides the D. and the Three-Eyed tribe. An ability similar to Poseidon's ability to communicate with the Sea Kings…
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I'm not sure about that, they talked about Shirahoshis birth. They mentioned someone other in a distant sea, not necessarily their birth.
The Sea Kings have been waiting for their kings meeting for so long and when Shirahoshi and Luffy met and were right in front of them, they don't notice or mention anything?
Isn't that a bit strange?
Momo is special with his ability to communicate with Zunesha. And he has a bigger role, as we learned in the past chapters.Why do the Kozuki have the ability to hear the voice of all things? So far the only people besides the D. and the Three-Eyed tribe. An ability similar to Poseidon's ability to communicate with the Sea Kings…
Well, the Sea Kings didn't mention anything about Momo either, and he was right there in Roger's ship.
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Greg does get the chapters early like the rest of editorial. I believe he gets them before spoilers start leaking, but I don't know how much sooner.
And yes, also gets accidentally spoiled with column guesses.
Clarifying WHY he might know something might be a spoiler in and of itself, even if he's vague, so if he's giving a coy response, I wouldn't expect more of an answer on that particular topic for a while.
What Robby said. Plus…I think enough time has passed and I've proven myself to those who count most so I feel comfortable being slightly more translucent.
Although as long as OP is being published I won't not go into specifics about when I read it, I will say that I can never be spoiled by the internet and I regularly see JUMP before the public but that's not necessarily when I first read a chap. More than once I've read a chapter while the ink was still drying.
Thanks for the answers, I now have the feeling I may have asked before if you got the chapters early, but then forgot. I'll try to remember it this time
Also, please know that I'm saying this with the utmost respect and mostly envy but: Reading the chapters while the ink is still drying? You sonava bitch.My question here was if you didn't want to talk about who Momo is hearing because it's a big theory that may or may not be a little too close to the truth or if you actually already know the answer. But from the response I'm guessing it's the latter option.
Well, the rest of us we'll be here waiting for the next chapters to know the answer.
(edit: just stopped by the spoilers thread, guess we wont have to wait long )