No snark, i wish i could look at that and feel it to be something genuine. But Oda being Oda for so many years has left me unable to see that as any thing more than a cynical and elaborate fake out. The mans bad habit of wanting to have his cake and eat it too has undermined that aspect of OP for me in a real way
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima)
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Yes, there's a reason I called it Pell-dro the chapter it happened. He's certainly pushed credibility on that.
But the chapter after, when it was Peros who got up, not Pedro, made it clear something was different. Then the chapter after that, with everyone actually crying over him, his memory pushing them on, actually made his death have impact like Ace's and Whitebeard's. And after 4 years of hammering Pedro's death being real over and over, maybe we can finally give the man the benefit of the doubt on this one? I mean, I can't make anyone cry over it, but for the sake of argument, fearing he's hiding behind the nearest bush isn't conducive to the debate as it stands today.
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No snark, i wish i could look at that and feel it to be something genuine. But Oda being Oda for so many years has left me unable to see that as any thing more than a cynical and elaborate fake out. The mans bad habit of wanting to have his cake and eat it too has undermined that aspect of OP for me in a real way
Oda is good at knowing when to kill off characters after they’ve achieved fulfillment, and with Pedro’s actions helping propel the Straw Hats forward, I’d surmise he was pretty satisfied.
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I still think Pedro is alive but whateves
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Pedro being alive at this point would be terrible. It's one thing with Pell where he blew himself up and then basically was never mentioned again until the scene right before it was revealed he was alive. And same for Pagaya and Pound. But Pedro's death has been repeatedly pushed on the reader over and over again. For it to turn out to be a fake out would be in poor taste.
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Which doesn't matter at all. There can tasteful and tasteless jokes in both real life and fiction.
No. It does matter.
When a joke is told or something happens that is meant to be humorous in fiction you don't translate it in to real life especially when the example is a laughing at you type of joke. You also don't just attribute it to the author.
But it does work exactly as the Lebron James analogy. You just don't want to agree with it, which really isn't much of a valid argument.
No. It doesn't and I said why. This is you trying to tell me my reason is cuz I don't agree with it.
Don't know why you have to take this on a personal level but if a personal attack is the core essense of your argument then all you're saying basically translates to "Zik doesn't like Ivotas" which you are free to feel. It has nothing to do with the topic were discussing here now.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. All of this is baffling. I don't know how any worse you could've misunderstood what I said.
Nothing in that quote has to do with taking anything on a personal level or me liking you or not. That is definitely not what I basically said.
I'm talking about ppl that choose to take their views and pass judgement on things meant to be funny especially when there is a clear and obvious cultural difference in what is and isn't seen as humorous.
You said from what YOU have seen ppl dont like Momo because of his pervy antics. I'm saying none of that anecdotal evidence matters. That's why I specifically pointed out that your specific experiences on that topic doesn't matter. If there are other ppl who do enjoy it that should be enough for you to say different strokes instead of trying to judge it.
Which is why I said I don't need to waste time passing judgement on a different culture's subgenre of comedy.
None of my opinion about this has to do with anything personal or whether I like you or not. Not sure where you came up with that
It being a subgenre doesn't make untouchable from critique.
But you're not critiquing it.
You're saying a fictional character is despicable for a character you don't get and a gag you didn't find funny.
Momos or Sanjis antics but it's not ok to feel the same with Yamato did. Either everything is fair game or nothing is. Everything else would be hypocritical.
A big problem here is you're trying to equate what Sanji and Momo do to Yamato's issues.
This is why ppl don't like explaining jokes.
They are two different things that aren't comparable. They're two different types of jokes.
Sorry mate, but that's always a cheap argument that is usually thrown around when people don't like that something they love is being critisized.
This just looks like you don't actually have an adequate response so you're just attacking the argument instead of the content of it.
Like literally if you dont like something dont take part, don't engage. I'm sure you do it all the time without knowing.
Instead of complaining about something that wont change.
Disguising it as a criticism doesn't change much.
People have the right to read something and feel displeased with certain aspects of it.
Who said otherwise?
Nothing about my post has to do with whether ppl have the right or not to feel anything.
But if you don't like people critisizing One Piece
This isn't about what I like.
you want other people to act in a certain way then you should lead by example
Yeah, reasonable and I definitely am.
This is also a very popular rethoric used when defending something someone likes.
Again.
No.
I'm defending something I like.
I just provided you an alternative interpretation for you to consider which you apparently haven't.
The "you just don't get it" argument. There's not much how to counter something like this because it's usually a way of belittling the other partys cognitive abilities while putting oneself in the enlightened position of "but I do get it". The only thing to say to an argument like this is that there's a 50/50 chance for this argument to be true. Maybe I just don't get Yamato. Or maybe that gag just is tasteless.
Seriously, have you even entertained the thought that you might not get it with Yamato? Like even a little bit.
It should be clear by now that we will not see eye to eye on this matter, which seriously is fine too, no sarcasm here.
But as I stated above already, personal attacks will not help
There were no personal attacks made.
Kinda seems the way you read my post you wanted to be offended instead of engaging in a discussion. That's a shame. A little push back to your ideas and you ditch the topic altogether to try and categorize my rebuttals.
That's a fair enough argument. I agree that Yamato has no ill will. However I would still consider it a "despicable" thing to say though I agree that there's no "despicable" intention behind it. But unless I was wording my statement poorly, I wasn't talking about Yamatos intention but rather about the choice of words itself. If that wasn't clear before I hope I've clarified with this statement.
I wish you'd have had this type of measured response and connect it to the rest of argument to get the whole.picture of what I'm saying.
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It ha seen suggested that Yamato is less likely to join the more Yamato knows about Laugh Tale and its secrets. Going with that narrative, then it seems Momo is also less likely to join seeing as he’s now reading Oden’s journal.
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The reasons why I think Yamato may join is due to his nature and just being as quick and blunt about joining as Luffy was when asking Brook.
Yamato's personality is just as big as the others. The decoy nonsense that he tried to uphold was genuine. He wants to fight Kaido badly, but also at least help Momo be safe on his way out.
Like Oden, priority might change things. Oden had WB and ended up satisfying his itch by finally going along with Roger. If Yamato can get both of his priorities of protecting Momo and being free outside of Onigashima, he'd do it. Retainer possibility is almost as strong as being a Straw Hat. It's not like Luffy is the first he's asked of this. Luffy just makes the most sense for now.
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So what exactly is Carrot going to do now in Wano? After her revenge was just given to CatViper? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually asking! What's her character arc for the rest of Wano? If she's not avenging Pedro what will she do?
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Yes, it's what she has wanted ever since seeing him. In no uncertain terms did she want to avenge Pedro.
The question is, having failed in that, where does she go from here? Like you said, Cat Viper may be taking over the hunt for Peros, who does still need to be kept from wreaking more havoc. Is that all she's got? I sincerely don't think so, precisely because of Pedro's words. Maybe she saw them in the light of attaining vengeance, but it can't possibly be all that Oda had in mind when he killed Pedro off.
This is like saying where does Rebecca goes now that Kyros is handling Diamante.
Nowhere, Perospero is essential to Carrot's story arc, she ain't going elsewhere until she witnesses Perospero's defeat, heck, you always pushed for this narrative and just changed your mind this week.
Seems to me you dislike the idea that Yamato is reuniting with Luffy and Carrot is closing her story arc in the absense of any SH.
Which is a suprise to me as well, I really thought Sanji was going to be the one to take over that battle.
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So what exactly is Carrot going to do now in Wano? After her revenge was just given to CatViper? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually asking! What's her character arc for the rest of Wano? If she's not avenging Pedro what will she do?
Nekomamushi won't be taking Perospero down. There's zero story gravitas for that, Nekomamushi wasn't in WCI, a fight between him and Peros would have no weight. Even Pekoms, who was in WCI and was close to Pedro, would make more sense to fight Perospero. SOmething will happen to stop Neko.
I'm not saying there will be a real Carrot vs. Perospero fight. But she will be there. I'm sure Carrot will be at least present to Peros' downfall, maybe even deal the final blow herself. But she will learn that Pedro wouldn't want revenge in the first place. She will fight for something greater than just anger. Maybe to protect someone, or to stop Peros from doing something terrible.
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IMO, Neko won’t be the one to beat Perospero.
I too still have hope that Neko loses and only Sanji remains as the narratively optimal option.
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tbf that's a problem caused by a much wider issue that the story has had since Dressrosa. Vivi got introduced and her story wrapped up in the same saga. Law was reintroduced in the new world and had the same thing happen. Carrot's only choice for introduction was the start of a saga and Oda chose to not dwell to much on the minks so he could focus on the yonko, then she got some good moments but the saga has completely shifted focus to be more about the wider world than the individuals so if Carrot does have a bigger story to tell, Oda has kind of put it on hold as it's long game stuff rather than short term.
I just really can't see Carrot on the same terms as Vivi and Law. She kinda just popped up. There were no revelations about her at all specific to her. Nothing she wants that particularly bonded her with the crew or Luffy like Law or Vivi.
All of that happened with Momo who has been here since Punk Hazard.
Given only Jinbe has joined since the time skip and since entering the new world Oda had a different approach in how he finally joined but I just don't think he's repeating that with Carrot. Jinbe formed a really strong bond with Luffy over time.
W/e Oda has in store for Carrot its really not clear it has anything to do with joining the crew. If Carrot had gotten a flashback in Zou or during the WCI arc i'd probably change my tune cuz that's the only time I really felt she demonstrated her worth in potentially being a strawhat.
I agree with Cookie that she has had the weaker main character introduction. It'd be like if Paulie or Magurite stuck around for multiple arcs but was just there, had some things happen to the character, helped a bit but never really got that next nakama treatment that every Strawhat has eventually got.
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Nekomamushi won't be taking Perospero down. There's zero story gravitas for that, Nekomamushi wasn't in WCI, a fight between him and Peros would have no weight. Even Pekoms, who was in WCI and was close to Pedro, would make more sense to fight Perospero. SOmething will happen to stop Neko.
I'm not saying there will be a real Carrot vs. Perospero fight. But she will be there. I'm sure Carrot will be at least present to Peros' downfall, maybe even deal the final blow herself. But she will learn that Pedro wouldn't want revenge in the first place. She will fight for something greater than just anger. Maybe to protect someone, or to stop Peros from doing something terrible.
Pretty sure Neko will face Perospero, otherwise there would be no point in having him meet Shishilian to get info and then split from Izo and Kawamatsu, who ended up heading to the Live Floor anyway after detouring to Sanji. That's obvious setup, not a red herring.
I also don't see Oda focusing too much on Nekomamushi that he has to find a whole new obstacle. Next time we see him, it will be right next to Peros, thus letting Oda quickly skip to the point.
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Pretty sure Neko will face Perospero, otherwise there would be no point in having him meet Shishilian to get info and then split from Izo and Kawamatsu, who ended up heading to the Live Floor anyway after detouring to Sanji. That's obvious setup, not a red herring.
I also don't see Oda focusing too much on Nekomamushi that he has to find a whole new obstacle. Next time we see him, it will be right next to Peros, thus letting Oda quickly skip to the point.
Pretty much what I was gonna say but better
Also Monquito, I still think after Zoro fought Kaido and Big Mom, Sanji needs to fight at least one of the all stars if he doesn't want to get shit the rest of his life
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No snark, i wish i could look at that and feel it to be something genuine. But Oda being Oda for so many years has left me unable to see that as any thing more than a cynical and elaborate fake out. The mans bad habit of wanting to have his cake and eat it too has undermined that aspect of OP for me in a real way
Honestly, it'd be hilariously bad if Pedro were to show up in Wano or worse in the aftermath showing up for the party.
The way Peros talks about the situation it does seem Pedro is dead and not locked up in Big Mom's prison book.
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Pretty sure Neko will face Perospero, otherwise there would be no point in having him meet Shishilian to get info and then split from Izo and Kawamatsu, who ended up heading to the Live Floor anyway after detouring to Sanji. That's obvious setup, not a red herring.
I also don't see Oda focusing too much on Nekomamushi that he has to find a whole new obstacle. Next time we see him, it will be right next to Peros, thus letting Oda quickly skip to the point.
I didn't mean that Neko won't fight Perospero at all. I'm just saying something will interrupt the fight or defeat Neko before he can beat Perospero.
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Its gonna look really bad if Carrot isn't even around to see Peros defeated.
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If Neko loses, it'll open the possibility for Inu to lose as well.
Zoro vs Jack would be unexpected but enjoyable.
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I'm certainly less worried about Neko than I am with Inu. It's alredy established the stronger Scabbards are able to fight off Emperor commanders, so someone like Perospero would be well within Neko's capabilities.
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Neko is headed to where Bariete seen Pero last possibly and that is the entrance.
Kawamatsu, Sanji, Izo and Zoro are headed in a different direction and that is the Performance floor where Pero was seen last by the audience and not Bariete (1006).
Maybe Neko heads back after finding no one or ends up pairing up to help other Straw Hats or even Bepo who he had under his protection on Zou.
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Neko is headed to where Bariete seen Pero last possibly and that is the entrance.
Kawamatsu, Sanji, Izo and Zoro are headed in a different direction and that is the Performance floor where Pero was seen last by the audience and not Bariete (1006).
Maybe Neko heads back after finding no one or ends up pairing up to help other Straw Hats or even Bepo who he had under his protection on Zou.
Neko pretty much has to cross the Live Floor to reach the entrance though, and Perospero should be somewhere in the Live Floor.
Plus, if Bariete is coming, he will just tell Neko where Pero is. He's recon squad after all.
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Neko pretty much has to cross the Live Floor to reach the entrance though, and Perospero should be somewhere in the Live Floor.
Plus, if Bariete is coming, he will just tell Neko where Pero is. He's recon squad after all.
Yeah, true, hopefully there's nothing between the second floor madness and the performance floor to distract him.
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Also Monquito, I still think after Zoro fought Kaido and Big Mom, Sanji needs to fight at least one of the all stars if he doesn't want to get shit the rest of his life
I think Zoro's fight is done for this arc. At most he handles the fodders after this, but if he's defeating an Allstar after scuffling with Kaido AND Big Mom, I think it's too much for a badassery lmao. As for Sanji, it's finally his time to shine in performance floor, there is King or Queen for him to defeat!
For Neko I see he defeats Peros with Carrot (and Wanda) watches his downfall, like Rebecca back then…
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While Bariete could point out who Perospero is, Neko kind of took off like a flying cat and seemingly left them behind. Maybe they'll catch up, but I'd guess Neko could cross the Live Floor in one leap if he had to.
What's most likely going to happen is that Neko sees Perospero attack Marco and then defends his buddy. Then learns Perospero and Pedro's "killer" are one in the same. Happy coincidences and all that.
Neko is strong enough to take care of the candy man. What Carrot does is up to her, but you can't write off that she may be one of the first casualties of the war and her resolution will only come after from talking to Neko. Possibly as a new leader of the Mink army under him.
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Whew… Remind me not to fall behind. Reading through ~40 pages in one go is a bit...much...
Been close for a while now, but I'm pretty much all in on Yamato - in fact, finally putting in my vote in the poll to that effect. There are a few outstanding things I want to see - presumptive Zoan transformation(s), more backstory regarding his relationship with Kaidou, interactions with more of the Strawhats, and seeing what he can do when going all out in a fight (not sure if he's getting a proper one-vs-one, but he's definitely joining the fight against his father) - but those are mostly just gravy at this point. I can't see the arc ending without him leaving Wano, and I can't see him leaving Wano except in the company of the Strawhats (though I could certainly see him pulling an Oden and "join" the crew by way of dangling from the end of a rope attached to the ship's railing as the Sunny Coup-de-Bursts into the sunset).
My thoughts on Carrot haven't changed. Her defeat by Peros was handled in a way that serves to push her character forward, it just remains to be seen what direction that takes her. Her chances are slimmer than Yamato's in my estimation by a wide margin and I'm not going to pretend her showing throughout Wano has been particularly great, but I think the possibility is still there depending on how she's handled going forward.
And lastly, since it's been a while, I remain convinced that the post-Wano Reverie fallout will put Vivi back into play and that she will likely be meeting up with and rejoining the crew for the remainder of the series in the next arc or two (probably on Elbaf).
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I think Zoro's fight is done for this arc. At most he handles the fodders after this, but if he's defeating an Allstar after scuffling with Kaido AND Big Mom, I think it's too much for a badassery lmao. As for Sanji, it's finally his time to shine in performance floor, there is King or Queen for him to defeat!
For Neko I see he defeats Peros with Carrot (and Wanda) watches his downfall, like Rebecca back then…
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again I would love to see a team up with Sanji and Marco having an aerial battle with King and Queen (technically Queen can’t fly but since he’s a brachiosaurus with an extending cyborg neck that can shoot laser beams it’s still pretty much aerial combat)
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While Bariete could point out who Perospero is,.
People have been too obssesed with the Billion-Bounty guys, that they seemingly don't realize Perospero is among the highest rewards in the New World hands down.
700Million bounty man would be easily recognizible for anyone in the world.
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People have been too obssesed with the Billion-Bounty guys, that they seemingly don't realize Perospero is among the highest rewards in the New World hands down.
700Million bounty man would be easily recognizible for anyone in the world.
I suppose it gets easier for some to dismiss the 500 million - 1 billion bounty character once they see Luffy defeat characters like Katakuri.
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People have been too obssesed with the Billion-Bounty guys, that they seemingly don't realize Perospero is among the highest rewards in the New World hands down.
700Million bounty man would be easily recognizible for anyone in the world.
Nah, it's not that. Neko would most likely know who Perospero is as a big name BM pirate. The question is if he knows Perospero is Pedro's killer. All the Minks conveniently avoid using Perospero's name when they talk about him, and Bariete never mentioned his name to Neko. It's possible that he said it off screen, but since it wasn't said in dialogue, Neko could have gotten ahead of himself.
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So what exactly is Carrot going to do now in Wano? After her revenge was just given to CatViper? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually asking! What's her character arc for the rest of Wano? If she's not avenging Pedro what will she do?
From my point of view, what I've always said.
Regardless, I don't see Carrot being away from the Straw Hats till she comes to the understanding what and why they're so narratively important since those were Pedro's last words to her back in Chapter 877. She was with them this entire time and was still going to follow them had Perospero not arrived, so it can only be assumed that Oda wanted this conflict to occur as Vongola put it, Perospero is the only one among BM children to even be at Onigashima and the rest have been comically thwarted time and time again. Beating Perospero I don't believe will ever answer the question of what the Dawn of the World is, but the fallout of this arc means a lot. The retainers don't know why they waited 20 years and a lot of pieces have been falling into place with Luffy's actions. By the end of the arc, I'm confident that we'll get insight into what the Dawn of the World truly is and Carrot's position in the story would be tangible from there as it will fall in line with what was already foretold back in Chapter 877.
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Nah, it's not that. Neko would most likely know who Perospero is as a big name BM pirate. The question is if he knows Perospero is Pedro's killer. All the Minks conveniently avoid using Perospero's name when they talk about him, and Bariete never mentioned his name to Neko. It's possible that he said it off screen, but since it wasn't said in dialogue, Neko could have gotten ahead of himself.
Nekomumashi has enough information tho.
'Pedro died in WCI'
Anyone wearing Madmax clothes is definitely not a WCI pirate.
Nothing misleading at all.
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From my point of view, what I've always said.
I'm still under the impression that the New Dawn is what the world will be after the Ancient Kingdom's dream is accomplished. Whatever the One Piece reveals, is the reason that the World Government and the Ancient Kingdom fought over, in the Void History 800 years ago, and it will start the war again, and once the Straw Hats have won and brought whatever change was needed then we will be in the new dawn
So I'm personally not sure how we'd get information about the new dawn or it's real meaning before we get to Laughtale, as it would ruin what Oda has clearly left for the final Island
So I'm really just not seeing this big "New Dawn" reveal that everyone seems to be talking about
so I disagree with what you guys think will happen, but I guess we will see
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And lastly, since it's been a while, I remain convinced that the post-Wano Reverie fallout will put Vivi back into play and that she well likely be meeting up with and rejoining the crew for the remainder of the series in the next arc or two (probably on Elbaf).
I'd like this to go down but if Vivi comes back might as well go for the SH13 and since its unlikely she catches up to strawhats all by herself.in the New World might as well have some unexpected escort to lead her there.
Complete the crew in one arc/saga.
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@Zik:
I'd like this to go down but if Vivi comes back might as well go for the SH13 and since its unlikely she catches up to strawhats all by herself.in the New World might as well have some unexpected escort to lead her there.
Complete the crew in one arc/saga.
You know who has a connection to Vivi that could save her and also join the crew?
Sir Crocodile!!! I mean they definitely have a connection going on, just not a good one :ninja:
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You know who has a connection to Vivi that could save her and also join the crew?
Sir Crocodile!!! I mean they definitely have a connection going on, just not a good one :ninja:
It would be incredibly awkward and weird to have two former Alabasta villains on the crew with Vivi.
I was already working out in my head what Vivi and Robin interactions would be like even with Vivi being okay with Robin joining Luffy.
Crocodile would be too far, as much as I love him as a villain/character. Just the idea of him saving Vivi is weird.
I'm sure he's somewhere in the New World with Daz plotting his next move.
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@Zik:
I'd like this to go down but if Vivi comes back might as well go for the SH13 and since its unlikely she catches up to strawhats all by herself.in the New World might as well have some unexpected escort to lead her there.
Complete the crew in one arc/saga.
Yeah, I've been eyeing a final crew total of 13 for quite a while, at first because of the "Mugiwara no Ichi-Mi" thing and because a traditionally "unlucky" number seemed suitably "piratey" to my mind, but especially after Vivi's Vivre Card reveal. I'd already been theorizing Vivi's return pretty much since her reappearance post-Dressrosa, and both the Reverie itself and the Wano intermission chapters hinting at its fallout have only strengthened my views on her prospects, but her being given Vivre Card #13 and labeled as a "former" Strawhat (as opposed to "honorary", or something similarly ambiguous) pretty quickly convinced me that SOMEONE was going to be filling the #11 and #12 slots between Vivi and Jinbe (and while I approve of counting the ships as part of the crew on a sentimental level, I can't realistically see them as anything but placeholders for Vivre Card purposes).
It's why I've never felt the binary "either Carrot or Yamato" arguments to be particularly compelling, since I think there's likely room for both, so long as the appropriate story beats are there to support each one's case individually. I've never been "all in" on Carrot despite my belief that her chances are relatively decent (though admittedly more so during and immediately after WCI than now), but even as I've tentatively weighed her for Strawhat #11 (counting Luffy as #1), once Vivi was placed at #13 by her Vivre Card, I was immediately on the lookout for a potential #12 as well. I was initially having a lot of trouble finding what I considered to be a viable candidate, but once we got to Onigashima, Yamato strolled in and locked in the slot in short order.
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I'm still under the impression that the New Dawn is what the world will be after the Ancient Kingdom's dream is accomplished. Whatever the One Piece reveals, is the reason that the World Government and the Ancient Kingdom fought over, in the Void History 800 years ago, and it will start the war again, and once the Straw Hats have won and brought whatever change was needed then we will be in the new dawn
So I'm personally not sure how we'd get information about the new dawn or it's real meaning before we get to Laughtale, as it would ruin what Oda has clearly left for the final Island
So I'm really just not seeing this big "New Dawn" reveal that everyone seems to be talking about
so I disagree with what you guys think will happen, but I guess we will see
The Dawn of the World is something the Kozuki Clan and Mink Tribe have been awaiting centuries. It'd make sense once the borders open things may start making sense regarding it.
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This is like saying where does Rebecca goes now that Kyros is handling Diamante.
Or like how Luffy took on Krieg when Usopp fell to him, or how Nami took over against Kalifa, or Zoro took over fighting Ryuma from Brook. Doesn't say a single bad thing about Carrot for someone else to take on Peros if she gets another mission to handle.
Nowhere, Perospero is essential to Carrot's story arc, she ain't going elsewhere until she witnesses Perospero's defeat, heck, you always pushed for this narrative and just changed your mind this week.
Did I say she will absolutely defeat Perospero? I do remember saying she could, which Peros himself acknowledged was true. But I looked, and this is what I’ve found:
Carrot has been left on the ground, humiliated. And if that's where she remains for the rest of this war, then sure, she's done. But has that ever been how Oda leaves things? He pushes his characters, exposes their limitations, and more often then not, has his characters break past those limitations to become stronger. Perospero twisted the knife into Carrot, and if any Mink is going to clap back and do something about that, it's Carrot.
Because the fight with Peros was in motion, I was excited to see where it would go. It would have been great to see more of a showing this time, but that's how it goes. The ball is squarely in Carrot's court now, and it's up to her to stand back up. From this point, I'm pretty much going to back off and wait with her. If she fails to get up, then I'll stay down too. But with all the shade Peros was throwing, I'll still be quite surprised if Carrot only ever takes that lying down.
I said she will continue to fight, not necessarily that she will continue to fight Perospero. She doesn’t have to beat him personally to prove him wrong; she just has to stand up and make her mark in this battle properly.
Peros is still an agent of Big Mom's on Kaido's side, and he's set on causing as much damage as he can. Whatever the motivation, the Minks are still obligated to take him out of the battle while he still remains a threat. If he and BM agree to switch sides before that, we'll see.
And here, I said the Minks will take him down, not excluding or exclusively Carrot. I’m not saying she won’t fight Peros, I’m saying she doesn’t have to do it out of vengeance, and that if she’s needed somewhere else, she can let someone else have Peros.
Which goes back to what I’ve been saying since last year:
@Shift:I don't believe Oda made Carrot as present as she was, for nearly 200 chapters, to simply be a tool for revenge. I think he had her and Wanda face off with Peros here and now for a deeper reason, one intrinsically linked to the dawn Pedro sought.
What I believe Carrot will realize is this: she shouldn't be fighting to avenge Pedro. She should be fighting to help her friends the Straw Hats. That change in thinking is what will set her on the path to bringing the dawn Pedro gave his life for, alongside the Straw Hats.
So whatever she ends up doing, it’s the motivation that’s the most important thing. If she has to fight Peros, fine. If she has to let someone else take him, fine. She’s going to be where she needs to be no matter what, and I still think wherever that is will lead to being a proper Straw Hat.
Seems to me you dislike the idea that Yamato is reuniting with Luffy and Carrot is closing her story arc in the absense of any SH.
That’s not something I’m worried about. As mobile as she’s proven to be, she could get to just about anywhere on Onigashima quickly enough. That includes the Live Flood, where Peros and a lot of Straw Hats are converging now, and the roof where Luffy is. I’m not worried about her making a good impression.
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Or like how Luffy took on Krieg when Usopp fell to him, or how Nami took over against Kalifa, or Zoro took over fighting Ryuma from Brook. Doesn't say a single bad thing about Carrot for someone else to take on Peros if she gets another mission to handle.
None of thos characters correlate each other to a boiling narrative point.
Carrot and Perospero do, just like Rebecca and Diamante. Rebecca didn't go elsewhere, nor was given "another mission" at any point, she stood until Diamante kissed the ground, cause it entirely made sense for her to stay.
Carrot is bound to witness Perospero's defeat, the only one thing stated by her own words is vengeance, moving elsewhere is as unlikely as it was for her to defeat Perospero with her own hands at the moment. -
@Zik:
I'd like this to go down but if Vivi comes back might as well go for the SH13 and since its unlikely she catches up to strawhats all by herself.in the New World might as well have some unexpected escort to lead her there.
Complete the crew in one arc/saga.
Vivi and Smoker, bringing us to 13 (with Carrot)
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@Zik:
I wish you'd have had this type of measured response and connect it to the rest of argument to get the whole.picture of what I'm saying.
I hope you don't mind me putting this at the start of reply to you as I feel the positioning this kind of talkback makes or breakes the entire talkback between us. That being said, I repeat, if this whole thing is because I riled you up, then apologies. But if not then I don't see why get what I consider personal at some points. Anyways, let's get back to the actual topic.
No. It does matter.
Not gonna lie mate, as far as this point is concerned, I honestly don't even know what we're talking about. It really feel to be like you and I are Bugs and Daffy here shouting "it's duck season! no rabbit season!" at each other. Not even saying this to ditch the argument really. I'm just lost to a point where I start to not care anymore.^^
When a joke is told or something happens that is meant to be humorous in fiction you don't translate it in to real life especially when the example is a laughing at you type of joke. You also don't just attribute it to the author.
On this matter I think you and I are completely talking about different things while each of us is right on what we are arguing about. If I read you correctly, you are talking on a meta level. Meaning we as the reader see what Yamato is saying and understand have to see it as a joke. If that's you're point then I was never disagreeing with it in the first place. However when I said that it's a despicable thing to say then I was talking on a micro level, meaning how the statements made by characters in the fictional world affect other characters in the fictional world.
This you can translate to real life because fictional stories always reflect real life, no matter if we're talking biographies that are (wishful) retellings of real persons lives and events or if we're talking about caricatures that are very loose and sometimes grotesque reflections of life. The I'm trying to make is that if you would say what Yamato said in real life to a person like Momonosuke, it would be incredibly rude to a point where I find it despicable that's what my Kobe Bryant example was meant to be. But if it's in a fictional story then of course it's not rude towards a real person like you and me as neither you nor I are Momonosuke. But it is rude in the fictional world itself. And thus I find it a despicable thing to say.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. All of this is baffling. I don't know how any worse you could've misunderstood what I said.
Nothing in that quote has to do with taking anything on a personal level or me liking you or not. That is definitely not what I basically said.
I'm talking about the part where you're needlessly say things like "limited amount of people you interact with most of which I assume are English speakers". I don't see how this is anything but getting to me on a personal level. When I said "Zik doesn't like Ivotas" I wasn't saying that you literally said that. I meant that your statement can be read as caring such a meaning because you make this nothing but personal. At least that's how it comes across to me.
You said from what YOU have seen ppl dont like Momo because of his pervy antics. I'm saying none of that anecdotal evidence matters. That's why I specifically pointed out that your specific experiences on that topic doesn't matter. If there are other ppl who do enjoy it that should be enough for you to say different strokes instead of trying to judge it.
The thing however is if we truly follow that logic then we don't need an discussion forum to begin with because there is no such thing as absolute objectivity and there will always be arguments made from a personal subjective perspective. So I consider this a moot point to bring this as an argument.
But you're not critiquing it.
You're saying a fictional character is despicable for a character you don't get and a gag you didn't find funny.
Perhaps it might help if you could explain what you consider a critique then. Because from my understanding me saying that what Yamato tells Momo is a bad thing to say which paints the character in an unlikable light. That it is funny I already said. But also said that after thinking about it deeper I stopped finding it funny. And I really wish Oda wouldn't have made the joke because doing things for a few cheap laughs shouldn't come at the cost of a characters personality. And before this last statement of mine get's blown way out of proportion. I don't say that the one statement ruins Yamatos personality as a whole. But it's a bit tainted and not really necessary.
A big problem here is you're trying to equate what Sanji and Momo do to Yamato's issues.
Again I think you are missing my point here. I'm not saying that Momo and Sanji jokes are the same as the Yamato joke. I was just showing an example where some jokes don't land with people, which has been expressed countlessly on these very forums. And all I'm saying is that it should be ok to feel the same way about Yamatos joke. I just feel that people give it a free pass because apparently in 2021 we seem to live in a world were critisizinig is only ok if it's limited to a specific type of characters.
This just looks like you don't actually have an adequate response so you're just attacking the argument instead of the content of it.
Sorry mate but there really isn't an adequate response to "you don't get it" because as I said previously, it's not making a case for the topic at hand but rather a personl claiming to be smarter than it's conversation partner. And I don't really feel the need for neither of us to endulge on a discussion of that level.
Yeah, reasonable and I definitely am.
Let me end this post here. I hope that this time around I got my point across better without it being taken the wrong way. So as a closing statement I just want to give you one thing on the way. When your posts use statements like "that's your limited experience", "you just don't get it" or "I definitely am reasonable" (changed the order in the last one for a better reading flow) then you really shouldn't wonder when you get called out for acting high and mighty on a personal level. A little change in tone helps wonders with which I'm not excluding myself, which is why I haven't apologized not once but twice now. Even though So if you still feel like it's worth discussing our different takes on Yamatos line then I'm fine with it. But if you want to continue to act as the ultimate conoisseur of exquisite One Piece humor then just note that I'm out. Judging from your closing statement however I feel like that's not your intention so I'm all up for it. It's rabbit season btw!^^
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Vivi and Smoker, bringing us to 13 (with Carrot)
No.
No Smoker. That'd ruin the character as a marine.
No carrots unless we're talking the vegetable.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Yeah, I've been eyeing a final crew total of 13 for quite a while, at first because of the "Mugiwara no Ichi-Mi" thing and because a traditionally "unlucky" number seemed suitably "piratey" to my mind, but especially after Vivi's Vivre Card reveal. I'd already been theorizing Vivi's return pretty much since her reappearance post-Dressrosa, and both the Reverie itself and the Wano intermission chapters hinting at its fallout have only strengthened my views on her prospects, but her being given Vivre Card #13 and labeled as a "former" Strawhat (as opposed to "honorary", or something similarly ambiguous) pretty quickly convinced me that SOMEONE was going to be filling the #11 and #12 slots between Vivi and Jinbe (and while I approve of counting the ships as part of the crew on a sentimental level, I can't realistically see them as anything but placeholders for Vivre Card purposes).
It's why I've never felt the binary "either Carrot or Yamato" arguments particularly compelling, since I think there's likely room for both, so long as the appropriate story beats are there to support each one's case individually. I've never been "all in" on Carrot despite my belief that her chances are relatively decent (though admittedly more so during and immediately after WCI than now), but even as I've tentatively weighed her for Strawhat #11 (counting Luffy as #1), once Vivi was placed at #13 by her Vivre Card, I was immediately on the lookout for a potential #12 as well. I was initially having a lot of trouble finding what I considered to be a viable candidate, but once we got to Onigashima, Yamato strolled in and locked in the slot in short order.
Some good points. Some I didn't consider for the total of 13.
My only thing is Carrot's chances were never that strong to me and at this point I don't necessarily see Oda adding two nakama at once especially on the back end of having a party welcoming Jinbe as well.
If Oda did, I'd really believe he wants to finish the story up faster. Until he does I still think he's going to stick with his full arc to introduce a character and go through the paces and patterns to make them nakama if not his other routine of join first, leave, get chased/rescued, past reveal, and rejoin or his even longer new Jinbe method of name drop you 900+ chapters ago, introduce you over 500+ chapters ago, partner up for a few arcs, leave, come back for another arc, leave, pop up again and agree to join, leave, and then finally join (funny enough Law checks off a few of these).
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
That being said, I repeat, if this whole thing is because I riled you up, then apologies. But if not then I don't see why get what I consider personal at some points.
Wasn't riled and I can't stress enough I didn't get personal. I simply replied based on what you said. A shame you took it that way.
Not gonna lie mate, as far as this point is concerned, I honestly don't even know what we're talking about. It really feel to be like you and I are Bugs and Daffy here shouting "it's duck season! no rabbit season!" at each other. Not even saying this to ditch the argument really. I'm just lost to a point where I start to not care anymore.^^
Just discerning the difference between real life and fiction along with the caveat that it shouldnt be applied to real life given the context.
However when I said that it's a despicable thing to say then I was talking on a micro level, meaning how the statements made by characters in the fictional world affect other characters in the fictional world.
This goes back to several things I've said before involving understanding Yamato's character, understanding the joke, and not passing judgement on disturbed/crazy/etc. ppl.
I'm talking about the part where you're needlessly say things like "limited amount of people you interact with most of which I assume are English speakers". I don't see how this is anything but getting to me on a personal level.
That is me literally responding to what you said and tried to use as an example for why ppl you know like Momo or other examples involving Sanji or Brook. That anecdotal evidence doesn't matter. You say the ppl you know dont like this and I introduce you to a bunch of ppl who do like it. It shouldn't need to be stated that ppl like different things so trying to use that to pass judgement on a particular type of humor from another culture just doesn't make sense or seems right in any way
When I said "Zik doesn't like Ivotas" I wasn't saying that you literally said that.
Well you said I "basically" said that.
I meant that your statement can be read as caring such a meaning because you make this nothing but personal. At least that's how it comes across to me.
My statement was simply about your anecdotal evidence meaning nothing to the topic. It doesn't support the point you're trying to make.
The thing however is if we truly follow that logic then we don't need an discussion forum to begin with because there is no such thing as absolute objectivity and there will always be arguments made from a personal subjective perspective. So I consider this a moot point to bring this as an argument.
The thing is you weren't looking for discourse or a discussion about why ppl like Momo. You were trying to use the fact that the ppl you know who don't care for Momo being a pervy child or Sanji's nosebleeds or Brook asking for panties as a parallel for Yamato's I am Oden schtick being played for a morbid joke. None of that tracks.
Perhaps it might help if you could explain what you consider a critique then. Because from my understanding me saying that what Yamato tells Momo is a bad thing to say which paints the character in an unlikable light. That it is funny I already said. But also said that after thinking about it deeper I stopped finding it funny. And I really wish Oda wouldn't have made the joke because doing things for a few cheap laughs shouldn't come at the cost of a characters personality. And before this last statement of mine get's blown way out of proportion. I don't say that the one statement ruins Yamatos personality as a whole. But it's a bit tainted and not really necessary.
Calling Yamato despicable in that situation or Oda despicable for coming up with the joke isn't a critique.
You went from this is a cheap laugh to this is like telling Kobe Bryant's widow I am Kobe so I am now your husband and father of your children. Then went on try and compare it to a whole subgenre of humor from another culture as a way to say its okay to dislike Yamato for this cuz so many ppl you know dislike the percy characters and Percy antics and pervy humor in the story.
I find that insanely ridiculous to an unreasonable degree.
There's I don't like these jokes and then the examples you gave to try and support that.
Again I think you are missing my point here. I'm not saying that Momo and Sanji jokes are the same as the Yamato joke. I was just showing an example where some jokes don't land with people, which has been expressed countlessly on these very forums. And all I'm saying is that it should be ok to feel the same way about Yamatos joke. I just feel that people give it a free pass because apparently in 2021 we seem to live in a world were critisizinig is only ok if it's limited to a specific type of characters.
As I just said above, it definitely didn't come off as just that way in your previous posts.
Sorry mate but there really isn't an adequate response to "you don't get it" because as I said previously, it's not making a case for the topic at hand but rather a personl claiming to be smarter than it's conversation partner. And I don't really feel the need for neither of us to endulge on a discussion of that level.
Again a shame that's the only way you see it.
I definitely can envision several adequate responses to that claim whether you did get it or didn't.
Let me end this post here. I hope that this time around I got my point across better without it being taken the wrong way. So as a closing statement I just want to give you one thing on the way. When your posts use statements like "that's your limited experience", "you just don't get it" or "I definitely am reasonable" (changed the order in the last one for a better reading flow) then you really shouldn't wonder when you get called out for acting high and mighty on a personal level. A little change in tone helps wonders with which I'm not excluding myself, which is why I haven't apologized not once but twice now. Even though So if you still feel like it's worth discussing our different takes on Yamatos line then I'm fine with it. But if you want to continue to act as the ultimate conoisseur of exquisite One Piece humor then just note that I'm out. Judging from your closing statement however I feel like that's not your intention so I'm all up for it. It's rabbit season btw!^^
All I can speak to here, your interpretations aside, is that I was definitely being reasonable since you suggested I lead by example. So if anyone else is reading I'd hope you'd at least adhere to that.
And as far as passing judgement on different cultures when it comes to humor, that topic isn't relegated to just One Piece. It exists in a lot of manga. Most Asian comics actually. The morbid Yamato joke in question shouldn't even be compared to it like I've already said.
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Just wait until Yamato runs into Kinemon, claiming to be Oden right after a imposter-Oden killed Ashura Doji .
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@Zik:
Well mate, you can't say I didn't try. But apparently you still go the "the limited people you know" and labeling me as unreasanable while painting yourself reasonable thing going on in you're pattern of making a point. Plus your putting words in my mouth when you say that I said Oda is despicable, which I nowhere stated. So yeah, feel free to think that you're superior in every way and that I have no arguments at all and that that's why I'm backing out. I honestly just don't have the energy to further participate in a conversation with you. No hard feelings mate, I just don't think you and I make for a healthy conversation couple. Hope you can accept that.
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Just wait until Yamato runs into Kinemon, claiming to be Oden right after a imposter-Oden killed Ashura Doji .
I think Oda purposefully set up Yamato not encountering any of the Scabbards till the conflict subsides. That's what I think personally.
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@Zik:
Some good points. Some I didn't consider for the total of 13.
My only thing is Carrot's chances were never that strong to me and at this point I don't necessarily see Oda adding two nakama at once especially on the back end of having a party welcoming Jinbe as well.
If Oda did, I'd really believe he wants to finish the story up faster. Until he does I still think he's going to stick with his full arc to introduce a character and go through the paces and patterns to make them nakama if not his other routine of join first, leave, get chased/rescued, past reveal, and rejoin or his even longer new Jinbe method of name drop you 900+ chapters ago, introduce you over 500+ chapters ago, partner up for a few arcs, leave, come back for another arc, leave, pop up again and agree to join, leave, and then finally join (funny enough Law checks off a few of these).
Carrot's far from a given, to be sure. I may like her character and think her chances are better than most, but I fully agree that she could very easily just not work out.
But I don't feel that Jinbe getting a "plus 1" or even a "plus 2" appended to his party would be an issue, or at least no more so than having the end of Water 7/Enies Lobby be a rapid fire welcome/welcome back for Robin, Franky, and then Usopp. Jinbe's a known quantity - he's been "official" since Totland, and basically inevitable since Fishman Island. Carrot's also a known quantity, albeit one that needs more work if she's meant to join the team. Yamato's the only true "newcomer" to the equation. I don't have a problem with them sharing a welcome party, if that's how things turn out.
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Same. Especially as it feels like this is really the last time we can reasonably get a new main character without them feeling too late to the party.
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Same. Especially as it feels like this is really the last time we can reasonably get a new main character without them feeling too late to the party.
I never think it’s too late. Oda managed to develop interest in characters like Whitebeard in the span of like 30 chapters, and I think a similar approach could also apply to a theoretical recruit who only appears in the last 100 chapters.
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Same. Especially as it feels like this is really the last time we can reasonably get a new main character without them feeling too late to the party.
A new character could also benefit from links to existing characters and plot threads - Yamato has a lot going for him individually, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we don't acknowledge that his connection to Ace does a LOT of work in making his candidacy viable.
But for the most part, yeah, I think any new crewmates post-Wano, if they appear, are likely to be drawn from existing characters that have an established history with the crew, rather than completely new figures: Vivi's my go-to example, since I think her story threads are pushing her in that direction.