Oda has a minor character / side character fetish, especially post-ts so… yeah it's not something I'd be worried about at all lol
What previous arc in the NW has not prominently featured side characters?
Chapter 988: Sorry for the Wait
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Yeah, we are only at 1 dead this arc, not counting Kanjuro or Orochi who both are probably alive.
I think we'll get at least another death by the end of the arc.You mean Yasuie? I won't really be surprised if he turns out to be alive somehow.
I think if someone really does die, it will be Kaido. -
You mean Yasuie? I won't really be surprised if he turns out to be alive somehow.
I think if someone really does die, it will be Kaido.Yasuie's the one I do consider dead. That death is different than one like Pound's for example.
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Yasuie's the one I do consider dead. That death is different than one like Pound's for example.
Yeah the "deaths" were framed differently and under different circumstances but they have two things in common; they involve daughters and fathers and they are very tragic. That's why I think Yasuie's death may also not stick. Also, if Wano is supposed to have a happy ending and the people infected with "smile" will be cured then that also makes me think Yasuie's death won't stick.
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Yeah the "deaths" were framed differently but they have two things in common; they involve daughters and they are very tragic. That's why I think Yasuie's death may not stick. Also, if Wano is supposed to have a happy ending and the people infected with "smile" will be cured then that also makes me think Yasuie's death won't stick.
They just have major differences to me.
Pound's "death" was off-screened, could have just been a severe injury, etc., but most importantly was off-screened.
Yasuie's death was on-screen. He, a frail man, was shot a ludicrous amount of times.
Pound's death had a neat message but ultimately didn't move much of anything along.
Yasuie's death was integral to kickstarting the main conflict of Wano.Deaths do happen in One Piece if they're important enough. People like to bring up Bon-chan, but we never saw Magellan impale or poison Bon Clay or anything like that, so that was also technically an off-screened "death". Anything where they had the possibility of getting away, or not enough attention was put on it, they're most likely alive. If there was a lot of on-screen direct focus on their death, the chance they're dead rises significantly. Pagaya I believe is the one fake death where all my rules here are broken, but he was a long, long time ago.
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Law said you need the numbers to reach the main crews of the Yonko. Oda's building up those numbers in a meaningful way like how he would introduce crew members. I thought that was the theme here. Many examples from Law to Mihawk with remarks on what it takes and the talent that Luffy has to earn those guys.
Is there a way to make the main crew get more focus, yeah. What would that do to the locals that are meant be part of a future incident or welcome Joyboy?
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They just have major differences to me.
Pound's "death" was off-screened, could have just been a severe injury, etc., but most importantly was off-screened.
Yasuie's death was on-screen. He, a frail man, was shot a ludicrous amount of times.
Pound's death had a neat message but ultimately didn't move much of anything along.
Yasuie's death was integral to kickstarting the main conflict of Wano.Deaths do happen in One Piece if they're important enough. People like to bring up Bon-chan, but we never saw Magellan impale or poison Bon Clay or anything like that, so that was also technically an off-screened "death". Anything where they had the possibility of getting away, or not enough attention was put on it, they're most likely alive. If there was a lot of on-screen direct focus on their death, the chance they're dead rises significantly. Pagaya I believe is the one fake death where all my rules here are broken, but he was a long, long time ago.
Also this panel from 951 is basically Oda illustrating how he can have deaths in this arc without dampening the mood for the inevitable banquet/feast portion of the arc:
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I have a theory about what makes Kaido so powerful. I know this is a bit of a wall of text, so I recorded audio if anyone would rather listen than read:
I’ve seen some debate about whether or not Kaido is living up to the ‘Strongest Creature Alive’ descriptor which accompanies his introduction in Chapter 795, titled ‘Suicide’. Although Kaido has proven to be incredibly powerful, we have also seen him nearly defeated by Kozuki Oden and wounded by Kinemon. Accordingly, some doubt has been cast on whether Kaido is truly as powerful as was previously implied. I think what this boils down to is perhaps an intentional misdirect.
Although the text box which appears in the final panel of chapter 795 describes him as the ‘strongest creature alive,’ Kaido’s introduction also makes it clear that he is not unbeatable. Kaido has suffered defeat as a pirate seven times. He has been captured by Marines or enemy ships 18 times. He has been tortured and lived as a prisoner. He was sentenced to death forty times. When he was hanged, the rope snapped. When he was put under the guillotine, the blade cracked. His hobby has been attempting suicide. Kaido is not undefeatable, but he is un-killable, and I think there is a very clear and important distinction between the two.
We finally got a clue as to why Kaido can’t be killed in chapter 970. Oden is about to deliver a finishing blow when Higarushi, without Kaido’s authority, imitates Momonosuke, diverting Oden’s attention. Pure, dumb luck saves Kaido from death.In East Asian folklore, Chinese style dragons (like Kaido) may often represent good fortune. Whether Kaido is a dragon that ate a human fruit as some theorize or, much more likely, a human who ate a mythical zoan, I believe his power bestows upon him incredible good fortune in battle. If there is a remote chance, diving from a sky island, that one can collide with the Earth and survive, that a rope will snap or a guillotine will crack in an attempted execution, the odds are always in Kaido’s favor.
Interestingly, I think we were given a hint by Oda during Kaido’s introduction that this is the case. The narration box reads, ‘In a one on one fight, always bet on Kaido.’ The Beast Pirates and the upper echelon of the subsidiary Donquixote Family have names themed after card games or, in other words, games of chance. Basil Hawkins decided to join Kaido when he recognized the odds were overwhelmingly in Kaido’s favor.
It’s worth noting that Momonosuke has a ‘special’ artificial Zoan which seems to be very similar to that of Kaido’s. If, in addition to its transformative power, the artificial Dragon fruit imbues Momo with the same good fortune that has kept Kaido alive for all these years, Momo could be the key to finally ending Kaido’s winning streak.We actually have reason to believe that Mythical Zoan are not simple transformation powers like regular Zoan fruit. Marco’s phoenix flames have a healing, restorative property, matching the fabled powers of a phoenix in real world myths and folklore. It thus would make sense for a mythical Dragon fruit to grant its users additional powers which correlate to real world folklore.
Kaido, specifically, is themed on an Eastern style Dragon as is, seemingly, Momonosuke. To lend a bit more weight to this theory, there may be evidence that Momo has also been imbued with good fortune. Luffy discovers Momo in the scrap heap on Punk Hazard just before Momo succumbs to starvation. Similarly, the Scabbards arrive on the scene at the exact moment Momo is to be executed by Kaido, thus sparing his life. Kaido’s introduction into the story is accompanied with narration boxes describing forty failed attempts at capital punishment. Thus, Momo’s survival may parallel Kaido’s providing further evidence that Wano’s future Shogun may be the true key to its liberation
So, let me know what you think!
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That's a great freaking theory with lots of neat supporting clues. I've been thinking a lot about how Oda says one should "bet" on Kaido, but mostly how to me it signified that chances are high he'll win, but not 100 percent. I really like what such a devil fruit power would imply about Kaido's suicidal tendencies especially if he's unaware of his luck.
One thing for me, though, is that Kaido does seem to be as strong as advertised if Thunder Bagua is anything to go by. It has to be the strongest technique I can think of in the series so far and nothing about his encounter with Luffy seems to be based on luck.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
THEORY
Kaido currently has 2/7 Lucky Gods on his side. More luck for him
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Edit: I expected more archery for Wano residents and all I got was this legend with a smirk. I wonder if he comes back into play and is named.
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I think Kaido is just super tough and his hype is just meant to illustrate that. I doubt his luck is say, greater than Luffy's. He is certainly tougher though.
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I guess "luck" could work as a specific thing for Kaido, but I would rather not introduce yet another intangible mambo jambo ability baseline.
Like we already have Will of D, Fate, Nakamapower and Voice Of All Things on top of vanilla Haki. Luffy and Kaido lucking it out would be a bit much.
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So I guess that beating Kaido gave Luffy was just luck?
Including surviving all the Gear 3rd punches?
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That's a great freaking theory with lots of neat supporting clues. I've been thinking a lot about how Oda says one should "bet" on Kaido, but mostly how to me it signified that chances are high he'll win, but not 100 percent. I really like what such a devil fruit power would imply about Kaido's suicidal tendencies especially if he's unaware of his luck.
One thing for me, though, is that Kaido does seem to be as strong as advertised if Thunder Bagua is anything to go by. It has to be the strongest technique I can think of in the series so far and nothing about his encounter with Luffy seems to be based on luck.
Thanks! I do also think Kaido is really powerful / durable, but that this could be the special edge that prevents him from being killed, even in defeat. I don't think it's a replacement for genuine strength, just an augmentation of his 'luck stat'. We also saw him split the sky when he clashed with Linlin, so he has conqueror's haki. Kaido's definitely the real deal, but I guess I was also thinking about what would distinguish between Kaido, 'The Strongest Creature Alive' and Whitebeard 'The strongest man in the world'. It could be a defense vs offense thing, I guess. Like Kaido is just the most durable while Whitebeard is actually the strongest.
But I just feel like there's something more at play for Kaido. I was really waiting to see what happened when he faced Oden. For a while I thought that perhaps Kaido had received the immortality operation, especially given the X. Drake connection (Barrels possessed the op op fruit 15 years ago). But I think that's far less likely now. I think, if that had been the case, we would have seen something more like Oden mortally wound Kaido, only for him to revive a few moments later. Like, I had originally envisioned a scene where the Scabbards strike down Kaido, only for him to revive suddenly, inexplicably surviving a wound that should kill him, triggering a flashback for Kaido and Oden. But this was before we saw the real Oden flashback.
I think it's really telling that Oden had Kaido on the ropes before fate intervened on Kaido's behalf. I just felt like we'd get a hint, given the lasting scar left by Oden, when we saw the way Kaido survived the duel and emerged victorious, it would be informative as to what exactly makes Kaido tick.
I do think his suicidal tendencies and his drinking are interrelated. When I thought he was a recipient of the immortality operation, I assumed maybe someone he cared about had given their life to perform said operation, thus creating the current predicament where Kaido wants to join them in the great beyond but tragically cannot. Yamato is a complication here, so we'll see how she factors into all of this.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Kaido currently has 2/7 Lucky Gods on his side. More luck for him
https://i.imgur.com/idQaaPr.jpgEdit: I expected more archery for Wano residents and all I got was this legend with a smirk. I wonder if he comes back into play and is named.
Hmm very interesting. I hadn't thought about the background for Hotei and Fukurokuju.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I guess "luck" could work as a specific thing for Kaido, but I would rather not introduce yet another intangible mambo jambo ability baseline.
Like we already have Will of D, Fate, Nakamapower and Voice Of All Things on top of vanilla Haki. Luffy and Kaido lucking it out would be a bit much.
I suppose in this case, I would view it as something very specific to this particular mythical fruit. The mythical zoan all seem to have some extra abilities in addition to simple transformation. So far, there are only five that we know of; Sengoku, Marco, Kaido, Catarina, and Orochi.
We know Marco's flames have healing powers. Catarina has a nine tailed fox devil fruit which allows her to transform. Sengoku's power hasn't really been explored yet. I don't really have any theories about his powers yet. But Orochi's a really interesting case. We haven't learned what makes his powers work yet. I've got a work in progress theory about Orochi I'm planning to post soon. I do think there's maybe a hint in the scene where he confronts Kanjuro. Orochi is notably using his devil fruit power when the two meet and Kanjuro is rendered as a shadowy blob. Oda doesn't usually do stylistic stuff like that to hide character appearances and it wouldn't even really make sense to hide Kanjuro considering we've seen him as a young kid, or at least young enough when he was with the other retainers in Kuri. We never saw Oden meet Kanjuro, which I thought was interesting during the flashback. The way Kanjuro was drawn reminded me a lot of Gyro in the HxH flashback. He's drawn as a shadow because that's how he views himself due to the traumatic events he endured. Bug like I said, it’s not really Oda’s style to do something like that without a more direct meaning. So I feel like it’s almost as if Kanjuro’s soul is laid bare before Orochi when he’s using his Devil Fruit power. I dunno what that means or implies, but I think it’s interesting.
But I do take your point about complicating the world with another source of power. I would at least say, I don't really think it's something that's really learnable like Haki. It's just like… maxing out the luck stat in addition to being really powerful in other areas.
Something else I forgot to mention is that Fujitora says 'he keeps making the same bet' on Luffy, which was part of this same story saga.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
So I guess that beating Kaido gave Luffy was just luck?
Including surviving all the Gear 3rd punches?
Nah, not exclusively luck. I think Kaido's the real deal. He's still very powerful and durable. Has conqueror's haki. I just think he's got an extra edge. Call it a trump card. Even when he's outclassed, as was the case when he fought Oden, he still emerges victorious - or at least breathing - because the odds are always in his favor.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Thanks! I do also think Kaido is really powerful / durable, but that this could be the special edge that prevents him from being killed, even in defeat. I don't think it's a replacement for genuine strength, just an augmentation of his 'luck stat'. We also saw him split the sky when he clashed with Linlin, so he has conqueror's haki. Kaido's definitely the real deal, but I guess I was also thinking about what would distinguish between Kaido, 'The Strongest Creature Alive' and Whitebeard 'The strongest man in the world'. It could be a defense vs offense thing, I guess. Like Kaido is just the most durable while Whitebeard is actually the strongest.
But I just feel like there's something more at play for Kaido. I was really waiting to see what happened when he faced Oden. For a while I thought that perhaps Kaido had received the immortality operation, especially given the X. Drake connection (Barrels possessed the op op fruit 15 years ago). But I think that's far less likely now. I think, if that had been the case, we would have seen something more like Oden mortally wound Kaido, only for him to revive a few moments later. Like, I had originally envisioned a scene where the Scabbards strike down Kaido, only for him to revive suddenly, inexplicably surviving a wound that should kill him, triggering a flashback for Kaido and Oden. But this was before we saw the real Oden flashback.
I think it's really telling that Oden had Kaido on the ropes before fate intervened on Kaido's behalf. I just felt like we'd get a hint, given the lasting scar left by Oden, when we saw the way Kaido survived the duel and emerged victorious, it would be informative as to what exactly makes Kaido tick.
I do think his suicidal tendencies and his drinking are interrelated. When I thought he was a recipient of the immortality operation, I assumed maybe someone he cared about had given their life to perform said operation, thus creating the current predicament where Kaido wants to join them in the great beyond but tragically cannot. Yamato is a complication here, so we'll see how she factors into all of this.
Nah, not exclusively luck. I think Kaido's the real deal. He's still very powerful and durable. Has conqueror's haki. I just think he's got an extra edge. Call it a trump card. Even when he's outclassed, as was the case when he fought Oden, he still emerges victorious - or at least breathing - because the odds are always in his favor.
I think it fit just theoretically with the idea of Devil Fruits and the will of D being tools of rebellion and the devil. The luck of the devil is another theme that would go together with the luck of eastern dragons.
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Can't "sending laser beam from the mouth" count as an extra ability ?
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I really like your thoughts @Vangola, but i think that film Gold did already cover this topic and don't see why Oda would use a similar motive again.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Lucky theory
Before Wano, I had the theory Kaido could not be killed because he had a luck related fruit, not because of a hard skin (I remember thinking he could have a Kirin fruit since those are seen as lucky symbols, so it could be a side affect of his Zoan, so not much different from your conclusion).
It was more as a result of me not wanting him to have a Dragon fruit and not wanting Linlin's gimmick to be repeated on another member of the "group", to be honest. But after the dragon form was revealed and his scales were given as the cause for his toughness, I had to give up (although I still hope for some twist on the dragon part).EDIT: Found it:
@.access:The more I think about it, the more I am getting convinced that Kaido doesn't have an impregnable body like Linlin, but rather an ability that gives him an overhuman luck that manages to keep him alive and safe from everything (think of Steel Ball Run's Pocoloco).
I've been thinking about Luffy's current fight and how it apparently doesn't have any weight to the plot. Sure taking Katakuri with him meant keep the SH safe from such a dangerous enemy before, but after Luffy successfully managed to lock Katakuri in the Mirro-world alone, that reason was lost.
The end of this arc, for the first time, has nothing to do with Luffy and his effort to defeat his enemy. Even if he loses to Katakuri, the result of the arc will be the same. He is trying surpass this enemy not because the SH safety hangs on that like in every arc before, surpass the enemy is the end in itself not a means to an end.Now, a while back, we know Oda was struggling to think of a convincing way to make Luffy defeat someone as strong as Kaido. A while back this arc was also meant to be much shorter since Oda actually thought in 2017 we would already had entered Wano (and Sanji would already get his crowning moment to make 2017 worth of the Year of Sanji title). But something changed.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the fully drawn out fight against Katakuri and this new ability to see the future is the answer Oda was looking for. The future prediction will play a role in defeating Kaido, and while it is a stretch to think this is a hint Kaido will have a luck-based power, I think it would be a perfect match since Kaido power could try to place him in a comfortable position given the dangers that it would befall him only for Luffy to change the future based on his prediction, nullify the "luck's prediction".
And I still think this luck will be a side-effect of a Kirin DF.
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It may or may not be luck-based, but for sure I will be disappointed if thick scales and sheer toughness are all there was to Kaido's apparent immortality. I'm waiting for Luffy to show against Big Mom how effective his new haki is, only to then hit a wall with Kaido and realize he'll need something more. This doesn't necessarily mean utter defeat for any of them, maybe that's when the first round of fighting breaks off and Kaido's forces leave Onigashima to regroup somewhere else in Wano
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So I guess that beating Kaido gave Luffy was just luck?
Including surviving all the Gear 3rd punches?
I doubt it, I think Kaido just has some Luke Cage style "Super skin" which is why he is so hard to hurt, Ryudo Haki in specific seems to be what you have to use to hurt him at all.
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@.access:
Before Wano, I had the theory Kaido could not be killed because he had a luck related fruit, not because of a hard skin (I remember thinking he could have a Kirin fruit since those are seen as lucky symbols, so it could be a side affect of his Zoan, so not much different from your conclusion).
It was more as a result of me not wanting him to have a Dragon fruit and not wanting Linlin's gimmick to be repeated on another member of the "group", to be honest. But after the dragon form was revealed and his scales were given as the cause for his toughness, I had to give up (although I still hope for some twist on the dragon part).EDIT: Found it:
Oh, interesting. I really don't think your original line of thinking has been ruled out. It just seems like it's a really consistent theme throughout this whole saga. Even going back to Fujitora making 'the same bet.'
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I do still think Kaido is overwhelmingly powerful and durable. But I think this allows for him to still emerge victorious even when he's overpowered, thus building the reputation of being 'the strongest creature alive' despite having suffered defeat seven times.
It also is pretty telling that Kaido had Higarushi put to death for her interference in his duel with Oden. Yet, he still went ahead with Oden's execution. It just makes me wonder why he wouldn't simply challenge Oden to another fight, especially given what we know about his desire to find someone strong enough to kill him. Oden could very well have been that person. It seems like maybe he knew something we don't. Oden lost focus at a critical moment. Fortune was on Kaido's side in that battle. So perhaps the assumption here is that, to Kaido, Oden proved not to be 'lucky' enough to beat him, even if he has the requisite level of power.
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O-lin vs Queen round two incoming!
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Just came to mind…but did we ever find out who the mysterious figure was that was following Robin/Jinbe at the beginning of the Onigashima raid? As the time, people were speculating Yamato, but I think we can exclude her now.
So what are the other prevailing theories?
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@Joy:
You guys speak of Luffy's Haki power up but also forget that Kaido hasn't even bothered to use Haki, his hybrid form and awakening. Kaido didn't beat Luffy because he had some weird advantage. He beat him in one shot with pure shot. Also if Luffy gets blitzed then future sight doesn't help him that much. Kaido can still overpower him.
Also Oden is in the past. Kaido grew stronger.
Thunder Bagua is Haki attack. Just because he didn’t paint his arms black doesn’t not mean he didn’t use haki.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
It also is pretty telling that Kaido had Higarushi put to death for her interference in his duel with Oden. Yet, he still went ahead with Oden's execution. It just makes me wonder why he wouldn't simply challenge Oden to another fight, especially given what we know about his desire to find someone strong enough to kill him. Oden could very well have been that person. It seems like maybe he knew something we don't. Oden lost focus at a critical moment. Fortune was on Kaido's side in that battle. So perhaps the assumption here is that, to Kaido, Oden proved not to be 'lucky' enough to beat him, even if he has the requisite level of power.
But Kaido's motives at the time he lost to Oden were completely different from those he has now. He wasn't building an army and collaborating with Orochi just to find a way to die… If anything Oden's death made him have this wish.
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Just came to mind…but did we ever find out who the mysterious figure was that was following Robin/Jinbe at the beginning of the Onigashima raid? As the time, people were speculating Yamato, but I think we can exclude her now.
So what are the other prevailing theories?
Logically someone that came with the alliance, but in secret.
Could be Tama practicing her ninja stealth.
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Thunder Bagua is Haki attack. Just because he didn’t paint his arms black doesn’t not mean he didn’t use haki.
It was the club that was empathized though. I could be nothing or that the club has sea stone on it.
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Every time I recall Thunder Bagua being used, by Kaidou and Yamato, Oda drew the black lightning he usually uses for haki clashes.
It may look like a simple attack but it's still named, it has plenty of power behind it.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
I have a theory about what makes Kaido so powerful. I know this is a bit of a wall of text, so I recorded audio if anyone would rather listen than read:
I’ve seen some debate about whether or not Kaido is living up to the ‘Strongest Creature Alive’ descriptor which accompanies his introduction in Chapter 795, titled ‘Suicide’. Although Kaido has proven to be incredibly powerful, we have also seen him nearly defeated by Kozuki Oden and wounded by Kinemon. Accordingly, some doubt has been cast on whether Kaido is truly as powerful as was previously implied. I think what this boils down to is perhaps an intentional misdirect.
Although the text box which appears in the final panel of chapter 795 describes him as the ‘strongest creature alive,’ Kaido’s introduction also makes it clear that he is not unbeatable. Kaido has suffered defeat as a pirate seven times. He has been captured by Marines or enemy ships 18 times. He has been tortured and lived as a prisoner. He was sentenced to death forty times. When he was hanged, the rope snapped. When he was put under the guillotine, the blade cracked. His hobby has been attempting suicide. Kaido is not undefeatable, but he is un-killable, and I think there is a very clear and important distinction between the two.
We finally got a clue as to why Kaido can’t be killed in chapter 970. Oden is about to deliver a finishing blow when Higarushi, without Kaido’s authority, imitates Momonosuke, diverting Oden’s attention. Pure, dumb luck saves Kaido from death.In East Asian folklore, Chinese style dragons (like Kaido) may often represent good fortune. Whether Kaido is a dragon that ate a human fruit as some theorize or, much more likely, a human who ate a mythical zoan, I believe his power bestows upon him incredible good fortune in battle. If there is a remote chance, diving from a sky island, that one can collide with the Earth and survive, that a rope will snap or a guillotine will crack in an attempted execution, the odds are always in Kaido’s favor.
Interestingly, I think we were given a hint by Oda during Kaido’s introduction that this is the case. The narration box reads, ‘In a one on one fight, always bet on Kaido.’ The Beast Pirates and the upper echelon of the subsidiary Donquixote Family have names themed after card games or, in other words, games of chance. Basil Hawkins decided to join Kaido when he recognized the odds were overwhelmingly in Kaido’s favor.
It’s worth noting that Momonosuke has a ‘special’ artificial Zoan which seems to be very similar to that of Kaido’s. If, in addition to its transformative power, the artificial Dragon fruit imbues Momo with the same good fortune that has kept Kaido alive for all these years, Momo could be the key to finally ending Kaido’s winning streak.We actually have reason to believe that Mythical Zoan are not simple transformation powers like regular Zoan fruit. Marco’s phoenix flames have a healing, restorative property, matching the fabled powers of a phoenix in real world myths and folklore. It thus would make sense for a mythical Dragon fruit to grant its users additional powers which correlate to real world folklore.
Kaido, specifically, is themed on an Eastern style Dragon as is, seemingly, Momonosuke. To lend a bit more weight to this theory, there may be evidence that Momo has also been imbued with good fortune. Luffy discovers Momo in the scrap heap on Punk Hazard just before Momo succumbs to starvation. Similarly, the Scabbards arrive on the scene at the exact moment Momo is to be executed by Kaido, thus sparing his life. Kaido’s introduction into the story is accompanied with narration boxes describing forty failed attempts at capital punishment. Thus, Momo’s survival may parallel Kaido’s providing further evidence that Wano’s future Shogun may be the true key to its liberation
So, let me know what you think!
I honestly think you cracked the code. VERY attentive reading, wow, and I'm an incredibly attentive reader (to the point I know for 100% certain there'll be another timeskip, it was outright confirmed in a dialogue bubble that everyone forgets).
I'm betting on this. Very nice. Luffy's incredible luck vs Kaido's incredible luck.
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I honestly think you cracked the code. VERY attentive reading, wow, and I'm an incredibly attentive reader (to the point I know for 100% certain there'll be another timeskip, it was outright confirmed in a dialogue bubble that everyone forgets).
I'm betting on this. Very nice. Luffy's incredible luck vs Kaido's incredible luck.
Which dialogue bubble was that?
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Which dialogue bubble was that?
I did say EVERYONE forgets. I … forgot!!!
(it'd be a spoiler, I'd say well beyond 99% of people forget about it) -
16 chars of I'm intrigued.
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16 chars of I'm intrigued.
It's in [redacted]. VIZ version. I'll double check to be sure I'm not falsely misleading someone and then edit this post.
Edit: It's very much still there. ^^
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But if the luck factor is an attribute of his DF, then having sea stone cuffs on him would negate the ability thus an execution would work. I think it might be something else that might provide him with this luck ability if you will. Maybe a curse or hex of some kind given to him by his parents or his birthplace etc.
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It's in Whole Cake Island. VIZ version. I'll double check to be sure I'm not falsely misleading someone and then edit this post.
Edit: It's very much still there. ^^
Err, so… what chapter is it in lol
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Err, so… what chapter is it in lol
Yes.
But if the luck factor is an attribute of his DF, then having sea stone cuffs on him would negate the ability thus an execution would work. I think it might be something else that might provide him with this luck ability if you will. Maybe a curse or hex of some kind given to him by his parents or his birthplace etc.
This is definitely a point that needs to be considered, hadn't thought of that. Now I'm even more intrigued in Kaido's back story.
I guess we can ask ourselves: What provides Luffy's luck? (it's a literal 'entity' in the series that's mentioned, so it's not just protag luck)
That can help us figure out what gives Kaido his possible luck. -
But if the luck factor is an attribute of his DF, then having sea stone cuffs on him would negate the ability thus an execution would work. I think it might be something else that might provide him with this luck ability if you will. Maybe a curse or hex of some kind given to him by his parents or his birthplace etc.
Kairouseki doesn't negate devil fruits. It just makes the user feel weak like some sort of paralysis.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
I have a theory about what makes Kaido so powerful. I know this is a bit of a wall of text, so I recorded audio if anyone would rather listen than read:
I’ve seen some debate about whether or not Kaido is living up to the ‘Strongest Creature Alive’ descriptor which accompanies his introduction in Chapter 795, titled ‘Suicide’. Although Kaido has proven to be incredibly powerful, we have also seen him nearly defeated by Kozuki Oden and wounded by Kinemon. Accordingly, some doubt has been cast on whether Kaido is truly as powerful as was previously implied. I think what this boils down to is perhaps an intentional misdirect.
Although the text box which appears in the final panel of chapter 795 describes him as the ‘strongest creature alive,’ Kaido’s introduction also makes it clear that he is not unbeatable. Kaido has suffered defeat as a pirate seven times. He has been captured by Marines or enemy ships 18 times. He has been tortured and lived as a prisoner. He was sentenced to death forty times. When he was hanged, the rope snapped. When he was put under the guillotine, the blade cracked. His hobby has been attempting suicide. Kaido is not undefeatable, but he is un-killable, and I think there is a very clear and important distinction between the two.
We finally got a clue as to why Kaido can’t be killed in chapter 970. Oden is about to deliver a finishing blow when Higarushi, without Kaido’s authority, imitates Momonosuke, diverting Oden’s attention. Pure, dumb luck saves Kaido from death.In East Asian folklore, Chinese style dragons (like Kaido) may often represent good fortune. Whether Kaido is a dragon that ate a human fruit as some theorize or, much more likely, a human who ate a mythical zoan, I believe his power bestows upon him incredible good fortune in battle. If there is a remote chance, diving from a sky island, that one can collide with the Earth and survive, that a rope will snap or a guillotine will crack in an attempted execution, the odds are always in Kaido’s favor.
Interestingly, I think we were given a hint by Oda during Kaido’s introduction that this is the case. The narration box reads, ‘In a one on one fight, always bet on Kaido.’ The Beast Pirates and the upper echelon of the subsidiary Donquixote Family have names themed after card games or, in other words, games of chance. Basil Hawkins decided to join Kaido when he recognized the odds were overwhelmingly in Kaido’s favor.
It’s worth noting that Momonosuke has a ‘special’ artificial Zoan which seems to be very similar to that of Kaido’s. If, in addition to its transformative power, the artificial Dragon fruit imbues Momo with the same good fortune that has kept Kaido alive for all these years, Momo could be the key to finally ending Kaido’s winning streak.We actually have reason to believe that Mythical Zoan are not simple transformation powers like regular Zoan fruit. Marco’s phoenix flames have a healing, restorative property, matching the fabled powers of a phoenix in real world myths and folklore. It thus would make sense for a mythical Dragon fruit to grant its users additional powers which correlate to real world folklore.
Kaido, specifically, is themed on an Eastern style Dragon as is, seemingly, Momonosuke. To lend a bit more weight to this theory, there may be evidence that Momo has also been imbued with good fortune. Luffy discovers Momo in the scrap heap on Punk Hazard just before Momo succumbs to starvation. Similarly, the Scabbards arrive on the scene at the exact moment Momo is to be executed by Kaido, thus sparing his life. Kaido’s introduction into the story is accompanied with narration boxes describing forty failed attempts at capital punishment. Thus, Momo’s survival may parallel Kaido’s providing further evidence that Wano’s future Shogun may be the true key to its liberation
So, let me know what you think!
This is a really strong, well-reasoned theory that feels like it covers every base. Great work!
Perhaps one of the best things about it is that it's pretty likely to still function even if it's never fully confirmed. The story would have to go a significant distance out of its way to deconfirm so many seemingly-innocuous pieces of evidence. Oda could not mention luck, fortune or anything of the sort once in the final Kaido battle and I might just still headcanon this and there would likely be nothing beyond the lack of outright confirmation to say it's wrong.
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Kairouseki doesn't negate devil fruits. It just makes the user feel weak like some sort of paralysis.
Their have been instances of "sea stone" subduing the ability and not so much the user.
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Their have been instances of "sea stone" subduing the ability and not so much the user.
For example?
Just don't forget that you lose your strength/energy when you're in contact with kairouseki, becoming a "hammer", and so you probably won't be able to use any of your "active abilities" since they require effort… but that plays inside the concept of paralysis that I was talking about.
That said, your devil fruit is still turned on at all times, therefore any of your "passive" abilities will work just fine, as well as any action that doesn't require a lot of effort.
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For example?
Just don't forget that you lose your strength/energy when you're in contact with kairouseki, becoming a "hammer", and so you probably won't be able to use any of your "active abilities" since they require effort… but that plays inside the concept of paralysis that I was talking about.
That said, your devil fruit is still turned on at all times, therefore any of your "passive" abilities will work just fine, as well as any action that doesn't require a lot of effort.
Isn't Luffy stretchable under water? He cannot stretch, but others can stretch him. (Unless that was anime filler, in which case, sorry)
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@Haisha:
Isn't Luffy stretchable under water? He cannot stretch, but others can stretch him. (Unless that was anime filler, in which case, sorry)
Exactly. It happened in Arlong Park.
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Luffy and Kid in the prison in Udon.
Any dialogue or scene in particular that contradicts the rule?
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Any dialogue or scene in particular that contradicts the rule?
What rule? I was just saying that they weren't subdued as much as their abilities were; they were "competing" and took out the hippo guy then Luffy went on to save the old man again all the while not using his ability.
Worth noting that Luffy couldn't use "haki" while the cuffs were on too.
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What rule? I was just saying that they weren't subdued as much as their abilities were; they were "competing" and took out the hippo guy then Luffy went on to save the old man again all the while not using his ability.
Worth noting that Luffy couldn't use "haki" while the cuffs were on too.
The "rule" that I was talking about, that your devil fruit is turned on despite your strenght to actually make use of its active abilities. Just like Luffy was still rubber (and stretchable) when he was underwater in Arlong Park.
This new Wano kairouseki did add a little bit of confusion since the characters are still able to move around and stuff, so it opens the question of how difficult it is supposed to use the devil fruit compared to other activities… but it was never outright stated that Luffy couldn't stretch even if someone pulled his arms.
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I think Devil fruits are still unusable whatever the strength of the seastone. Wano ones are not that new. After all when Luffy was touched by Smoker's jute or when he touched Arabasta cage, he was like underwater whereas people could walk just fine with seastone handcuffs in Enies Lobby
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It was outright stated by Caribou that the amount of seastone in a restraining object is what dictates how much it affects DF users.
Queen confirmed it further by mentioned 100% pure seastone cuffs to restrain Big Mom.
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This is a really strong, well-reasoned theory that feels like it covers every base. Great work!
Perhaps one of the best things about it is that it's pretty likely to still function even if it's never fully confirmed. The story would have to go a significant distance out of its way to deconfirm so many seemingly-innocuous pieces of evidence. Oda could not mention luck, fortune or anything of the sort once in the final Kaido battle and I might just still headcanon this and there would likely be nothing beyond the lack of outright confirmation to say it's wrong.
Thanks! I like the notion that it can act as headcanon even barring outright confirmation. Someone I was talking to mentioned the scene where Luffy has Momo draped around his shoulders in Dragon form. I feel like something like that in the battle against Kaido could be cool.
I'm just imagining a scene where, as the battle progresses toward its final stages, Hawkins is reading the tarot deck and sees the odds turning against Kaido; Going from a chance of defeating him to certain victory. I dunno if anything like that will actually happen, but I think it could be cool.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Exactly. It happened in Arlong Park.
Yeah, this is a good point. I believe that Seastone and the Sea itself drain the energy from the user either partially or completely depending on the concentration of seastone present. The sea itself has to be the purest concentration of 'the energy of the sea'; so if Luffy's ability still works while in the ocean, I imagine seastone doesn't negate the ability so much as it zaps the user's strength preventing them from using it actively. But it shouldn't affect passive changes to the user's body. I feel like enhanced luck / good fortune would fall into the latter category.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Yeah, this is a good point. I believe that Seastone and the Sea itself drain the energy from the user either partially or completely depending on the concentration of seastone present. The sea itself has to be the purest concentration of 'the energy of the sea'; so if Luffy's ability still works while in the ocean, I imagine seastone doesn't negate the ability so much as it zaps the user's strength preventing them from using it actively. But it shouldn't affect passive changes to the user's body. I feel like enhanced luck / good fortune would fall into the latter category.
By that logic, Marco would've been able to heal himself after he got caught in seastone.
The abilities that remain active tend to be permanent physical changes. Luffy can't just stop being rubber, the same way Kuma wouldn't have his paws suddenly disappear. Only Blackbeard can do that, as his power specifically absorbs any DF effect.