A possible solution to losing Harry could be by recasting some of the characters and just axing a number of them. Heck, if anything they should just recast Skinner, Ned, Burns/Smithers, and um…shrug Lately I don't know how often they utilize Harry's characters much anymore aside from Ned/Skinner. In fact, do they even use Burns that much anymore? I can't remember the last episode where Burns had more than 3 lines...let alone Kent, Otto, Hibbert, or Lovejoy.
The Simpsons
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Really its all moot since Bobs Burgers is the new Simpsons anyway.
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@Cyan:
Oh wow, that's new. Also sad.
He didn't die until several years afterward. I think they redubbed all of his lines as Moe because he left between production beginning and the shows airing. I'm pretty sure that the Mr. Burns in the episode where Homer becomes the Safety Inspector is him though.
Usually if the voice actor dies, the character is retired or just used as a background character. They eventually gave Lunchlady Doris to Tress MacNeille though so it's not an absolute rule.
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Interesting post on voice acting,Robby.
To be honest, I have not watched Simpsons for a few years (Watching couch gag doesn't count. They are still the best things on this show!). While it's kind sad that Harry Shearer is leaving the show, I probably won't even noticed the characters' voice actor has changed.
I guess people will probably complain for a while. They will stop complaining after they get used to the voice actor change.
But I can understand why people get attached to the voice actor/voice actress.One of my favourite game series recently changed the voice actress for the main character after 32 games. Some of the fans are boycotting the future games because of that and other various reasons.
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Last time I remember Burns doing something was being pro-Republican in an episodes and maybe in ads during the last re-election period. Could not really tell if they were a joke at the time, or cared. The show kinda sucked at taking on modern topics, I thought.
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Given the latest interview with Al Jean, there is still hope he could come back, they want him back, and he has some time to come back…its all up to him now.
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Given the latest interview with Al Jean, there is still hope he could come back, they want him back, and he has some time to come back…its all up to him now.
Considering this decision would have been officially made 8months- a year ago when they would have been voice recording for season 27 prior to animation… (and presumably even sooner during writing/storyboarding and semi annual contract renewal discussions) they've already had to work around his characters by either not featuring them or getting a new VA. I guess there's three months yet for him to change his mind, and they won't announce they already had a replacement actor do lines, but... they must have.
The timing of the announcement to match the season finale is a bit weird though.
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This just happened
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harry Shearer himself has teased a possible return. Please God, let it be so.
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Did they offer to pay him even more money while doing the job over the phone?
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I consider the show just a cash-in on autopilot right now. Very rarely has watching the show been worthwhile. Not an awful show but now just full of hack comedy writers like most other sitcoms, just with the added benefit of using familiar characters.
As for Harry Shearer, he's been a black sheep on the show for a while now and has hardly been a strong supporter of it for years. This is either a hail mary for an additional contractual benefits or he feels he's gone as far as he cares to with the show. The man is 71 years old after all, well passed retirement age. If it's the contract, I believe he may be more focused on royalties outside of the usual salary.
Also, I believe they will replace Shearer if he doesn't return. Unlike others, he hasn't been on very good terms with the staff at large and are less likely to honor his characters.
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@Mr.:
Also, I believe they will replace Shearer if he doesn't return. Unlike others, he hasn't been on very good terms with the staff at large and are less likely to honor his characters.
I think it's more a matter of his characters being too integral to the show, they can't get rid of Flanders, Burns, Smithers, Brockman, Skinner or even Lenny like they were Lionel Hutz. Even if they're the main focus in few episodes, all his characters combined always get tons of screentime every week and it's impossible to picture the show instantly losing all of them.
That said, Shearer has been saying the show isn't funny anymore since season 7, so everything comes down to money. I really can't count him out yet.
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This year Treehouse of Horrors is going to be interesting.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/08/the-simpsons-sideshow-bob-to-temporarily-kill-bart-simpson
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This year Treehouse of Horrors is going to be interesting.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/08/the-simpsons-sideshow-bob-to-temporarily-kill-bart-simpson
Rabbit catching the trix?
Sounds nasty.
I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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Rabbit catching the trix?
Sounds nasty.
Could have sounded worse… like the kids finally getting some 'lucky charms' from a short male....
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http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/15/harry-shearer-simpsons-returns
It seems they've all signed up to season 30, although the show isn't renewed beyond 28 yet.
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Thank fking God. Harry's back. Awesome news. All is right with the world once again
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FXX is going to do another Every episode of the Simpsons Marathon, but this time it's going to be 600 episodes. The Marathon will be starting on Thanksgiving Day.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/09/23/fxx-airing-another-marathon-of-every-simpsons-episode-ever
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Some good news for Simpsons fans that collect the series on dvd. Season 18 is finally coming out.
http://ew.com/tv/2017/07/22/simpsons-dvds-season-18-comic-con/
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https://nextshark.com/simpsons-uses-lisa-throw-shade-apu-racist-stereotype-controversy
The writers try to be cute by making the most liberal character directly address the audience as a response to the criticism of Apu. Kind of chicken - **** way of responding to it IMO. I'd say Id stop watching but its been dead to me since 2008-9
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I'm surprised Lisa was the one they chose this type of reasoning for. I don't even like Lisa because she's a scale of liberal that irritates the hell out of me. But she definitely wouldn't just do a shoulder shrug and be done with it.
They also don't really address that Apu was problematic for a lot of Indians for decades. But it only seems like a recent complaint because we have more ways of having a minority be able to be vocal in bigger platforms to reach more people. I'm also annoyed with people I've seen say "Well he's got positive stereotypes why is that bad?" Positive stereotypes are still a problem…Ant then we got others saying they make fun of everyone, what about the Hillbillies and Texan or Homer? For every negative "white" stereotype there are a ton of positives to overshadow them. Indians have very little positive representation. And Apu is voiced by a white dude. Like good lord people...
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And Apu is voiced by a white dude. Like good lord people…
Not to mention Dr.Hibbert, Karl and Lou (the black police officer)
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The way that the Apu controversy has been handled by the Simpsons crew is rather disgusting, but is there an actual problem in having voice actors voice characters of races they don't belong to? That obviously matters more in live-action, but mainly because visual performances require authentic phenotypes. Voices on the other hand are just… voices. They differ based on random tone range and geographical upbringing, not ethnicity. We wouldn't know if a person of one race voiced another unless we read the credits or they have an obviously obnoxious accent impression. I would only maybe think non-white Simpsons characters not getting racial matches with their voice actors might be an issue if the entire cast is made up of white people as a part of a systemic obstacle against minority voice actor representation in general.
With Apu in particular being voiced with a stereotypical accent, I blame that more on the performance sucking and the overall production crew's cultural ignorance rather than the only solution being that Apu NEEDS a voice actor of Indian descent for an authentic performance. There's no real obligation for that and the last thing voice actors need is this type of arbitrary typecasting. Although I will admit that having Apu voiced by a white guy on top of all the show's other representation issues does not do their reputation any favors.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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There is obviously a legitimate problem with Apu to be be adressed. Not arguing that. And the show handled that badly. Not arguing that either.
But their entire cast is basically voiced by three guys doings 80000 roles, and three women doing about 10 roles. That's not a racist thing or a typecasting thing or a white men sealing jobs from colored actors thing… that's just how the show is built. (And you'll see the same thing on ANY animated tv show... you get a talented voice actor and then they do a million roles, that's just how that works, but because its animation its actually usually pretty equal opportunity. If you've got a good voice, you're in. They spread out the casting a little more for theatrical films or superhero shows where they get one distinct actor for a role... but then you still have Frank Welker and Jeff Bennet and Kath Soucie voicing a million side roles. Comedy shows have small groups doing lots of parts)
The main problem the Simpsons has is that they introduced Apu THIRTY YEARS ago. The stereotype and joke was fine then, and it was parodying what was around then. But the show has just lasted so long a joke from the 80's has persisted for decades until something else has happened to make what was once okay... wrong. The same way Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry once had blackface or really awful buck toothed Japanese stereotypes or... Speedy Gonzales and his friends in general. (Speedy is awesome.... his friends not so much.) Time moved on and it became a bad thing. And if Simpsons had ended 10 or 20 years ago, it'd just be a product of its time. They have a similar issue with Dr. Hibbert, who was clearly parodying Bill Cosby's character back in the day, and well... that's looped around to obvious problems. Similarly, their obvious Schwarzenegger character that parodied a very specific 80's niche has been phased out a bit as he's become out of place
(Really the Simpsons itself was lampooning wholesome sitcoms of the day... but after it, Married With Children, Roseanne, etc. the thing it started mocking just doesn't exist anymore thirty years later.)
Of course, giving him a stereotypical Indian wife and then giving him like 9 kids and making bollywood jokes and then being stuck and keeping those things in continuity, those are obviously problems too.
I'm really not sure what they can actually DO to fix Apu specifially though. Move him to a better job? They took Barney and had him stop being drunk to try and be progressive and it wrecked the character. Have the actor slowly peel away the accent? (But given its a VA doing once voice among hundreds, I bet if he pulls the accent away he'd start to sound like a different character already on the show.)
They've retired other characters when their guest voice dies, or when the joke just wears too thin... but would retiring Apu actually be better than having zero indians at all?
I don't think there's anything they can do to fix Apu himself at this point. Really they just need to introduce a fee more new characters probably. (And a couple more recurring black and asian characters while they're at it, not just one offs) Do they create a more successful brother for him and bring said character in to be another example and just have more indians on the show in general? That's probably the only appropriate legitimate fix at this point.
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Of course if Simpsons had ended 20 years ago like it was supposed to we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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@Count:
but is there an actual problem in having voice actors voice characters of races they don't belong to? That obviously matters more in live-action, but mainly because visual performances require authentic phenotypes. Voices on the other hand are just… voices. They differ based on random tone range and geographical upbringing, not ethnicity. We wouldn't know if a person of one race voiced another unless we read the credits or they have an obviously obnoxious accent impression. I would only maybe think non-white Simpsons characters not getting racial matches with their voice actors might be an issue if the entire cast is made up of white people as a part of a systemic obstacle against minority voice actor representation in general.
Well, there's this interview with Raphael Bob-Waksberg on that whole issue of getting Alison Brie to voice an Asian-American, and the larger problem of it in not just voice acting but also the creative industry at large:
As Angelica Jade Bastién wrote in The Atlantic, color-blind casting isn’t sustainable because it “neither addresses the systemic problems that exist behind the camera nor does it compel Hollywood to tell more racially aware stories.” When you cast without thought to race, you can end up with a diverse cast; cast without thought to diversity, and you can end up with a whole lot of white people.
Bob-Waksberg explains that this “color bending” made him feel like “maybe it’s not a big deal and on the face of it anybody could play anything. There’s no reason BoJack couldn’t have been played by an Asian actor.” But, of course, the complaint isn’t that a horse is voiced by white Will Arnett, it’s that specifically non-white characters are voiced by white actors, effectively not awarding opportunities to people of color — which is certainly not the goal of color-blind casting.
“If you want to go against that, you have to be active about it. You have to actively hire people of color. You have to actively think for every role: Can this be not a white person? If I’m not thinking about, it’s not going to happen.”
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Well, there's this interview with Raphael Bob-Waksberg on that whole issue of getting Alison Brie to voice an Asian-American, and the larger problem of it in not just voice acting but also the creative industry at large:
I definitely acknowledge that voice actor diversity might often need to rely on consciously hiring, despite me putting voice acting quality above all other factors. But I do think that effort needs to go a bit more than only having the thought come to mind if a non-white character is written into the cast. Otherwise, that's still promoting typecasting. And hey, typecasting can arguably be better than having no minority representation whatsoever, but that should not be looked at as the sole goal post. Especially when western shows with Asian and Hispanic leads not having stories focus solely on their family or race/culture are practically nonexistent (and black representation is only just one or two notches above that. Those non-white roles tend to be limited to lesser importance than white characters, stereotypes, same-y stories, limit representation since there obviously won't be that many minority characters in the average show unless it maybe has a minority lead, etc.
Any type of animated show should consider casting diversely. Not solely in a "let's only look at this one race of voice actors to match this character" way but more "let's pay attention to voice actor auditions from multiple races", and implementing more diversity behind who's calling the shots in writing/producing/casting so there are more perspectives available to appreciate representation. And as you build up the cast and start noticing you're favoring a particular race above the rest, focusing on narrowing your focus towards other races bit by bit. In balance with what Robby said about how great voice actors tend to get a lot of work voicing multiple characters in the same series.
So all in all, I agree with that last quote you posted. I mainly agree with the other two quotes too, but would rephrase the issue as being less "white actors are taking up the non-white character voice acting gigs" and more "white actors are taking up most of the voice acting gigs period". I get what they're trying to say, but that perspective on how non-white voice actors can only get seemingly only get rewarding opportunities based on non-white roles is a limited box that needs to be open more broadly.
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Would/should other stereotypes be put under the microscope? Like Bumblebee Man?
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Does The Big Bang Theory have the same problem?
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If I remember correctly from one of the Season 1 DVD audio commentaries, Apu's voice originally wasn't supposed to be so stereotypical but Hank Azaria just started to voice the character in such a hilarious over-the-top way that everybody cracked up and they kept it. I wonder if there are any enraged Scots out there who are insulted by the clichéd portrayal and accent of Groundskeeper Willie..
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I don't have as much of an issue with the character but the way they responded to it was befitting of a program with 10% of its shelf life. Having Lisa break the 4th wall to directly say nothing is gonna happen and sign is a betrayal to how she would react if she saw this issue on TV (or at least she would probably be overly pushy about it at first) and simultaneously a cop-out and moralizing (trying to show it's the smart liberal opinion)
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If I remember correctly from one of the Season 1 DVD audio commentaries, Apu's voice originally wasn't supposed to be so stereotypical but Hank Azaria just started to voice the character in such a hilarious over-the-top way that everybody cracked up and they kept it. I wonder if there are any enraged Scots out there who are insulted by the clichéd portrayal and accent of Groundskeeper Willie..
From what i've heard they find it funny, if i recall correctly there were even two towns in Scotland quarreling over who gets the claim of being groundskeeper willie's official hometown. And even if they were to be offended Scots are white so there's no real base to rally from and gain traction.
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I don't think they can fix Apu at this point. But they maybe should not have said anything. If this was going to be their response. If they don't want to address something people find problematic why break the forth wall to do it? Why waste an episode?
I feel a bit bad for Asian actors because I've rarely seen them voice Asian characters. 2 off the top of my head are voiced by black men. But that is most likely a problem in that sort of industry. If you can't actually see the actor does the race matter? I think it might to an extent.
I remember Krem in Dragon Age Inquisition getting some flak from trans people because he was voiced by a cis woman. I didn't think much of it at the time. I just figured well they're just acting, do they need an actual trans person? I've adjusted my view on it since then, but it isn't a situation that can be solved suddenly.
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Does The Big Bang Theory have the same problem?
BBT loves to lampshade things as a "solution", like Raj always calling out Wolowitz for Indian cracks. Couldn't tell you if it's had racial problems, but there's a pretty well-made video that explores another venue:
watch young sheldon, it's much better -
Would/should other stereotypes be put under the microscope? Like Bumblebee Man?
Bumblebee Man is actually specifically a caricature of a Mexican TV character "El Chapulin Colorado" ("The Red Grasshopper") so he's not even a stereotype in the first place.
And honestly, even with characters like Willie ("what about the WHITE stereotypes huh???") the problem really is as Robby pointed out that shows can't get away with these broad characters taking in shallow stereotypes nowadays, the Simpsons was really a product of a more ignorant time. You have to find more creative, less lazy ways to flesh out the humor besides focusing in broad strokes across marginalized/underrepresented groups (Diane Nguyen from Bojack is actually a good example of this, its own unfortunate whitewashing via Brie aside)
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The main problem the Simpsons has is that they introduced Apu THIRTY YEARS ago. The stereotype and joke was fine then
No. It wasn't. That's the only quibble I had with your analysis. The rest was quite good.
I see people in the "everything's too PC nowadays" camp (including The Simpsons, apparently) make that mistake in logic all the time, and it irks me. It was not okay back then either–people were just able to suppress and ignore the dissent more easily. But that didn't make it right.
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Don't forget BBTs constant transphobia too
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No. It wasn't. That's the only quibble I had with your analysis. The rest was quite good.
I see people in the "everything's too PC nowadays" camp (including The Simpsons, apparently) make that mistake in logic all the time, and it irks me. It was not okay back then either–people were just able to suppress and ignore the dissent more easily. But that didn't make it right.
I didn't say it was RIGHT. But the stereotype and joke was fine then… because no one knew it was a problem.
You can't hold old works to modern standards. You can be bothered by it, but when it legitimately is a product of it's time, it is what it is.
Huck Finn uses the word "Nigger" like 800 times. (And people used to have slaves! Gone with the Wind is hugely problematic but its still the most successful movie of all time) During WW2 Bugs Bunny and Superman fought really unfortunate Japanese people. Old cartoons have blackface. Basically everything in Revenge of the Nerds is completely awful and every one of those kids should be arrested. Basically all of the 90's was in a weird weird place when it came to gays in entertainmentm and the last 10 years ave been crazy for gay rights. And so on.
No, it's not right. Be it color, gender, orientation, hygiene, culture based. But the society WAS different then. The standards, the knowledge of people maybe being offended, the AWARENESS of things were different.
So yes, it was okay at the time. Even if it obviously isn't now. Because they just didn't know better. Nowadays we do.
Except maybe for all the people that voted Trump for president stuck in that older mindset.
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Bumblebee Man is actually specifically a caricature of a Mexican TV character "El Chapulin Colorado" ("The Red Grasshopper") so he's not even a stereotype in the first place.
hmmmm….luigi? cookie kwan maybe?And honestly, even with characters like Willie ("what about the WHITE stereotypes huh???") the problem really is as Robby pointed out that shows can't get away with these broad characters taking in shallow stereotypes nowadays, the Simpsons was really a product of a more ignorant time. You have to find more creative, less lazy ways to flesh out the humor besides focusing in broad strokes across marginalized/underrepresented groups (Diane Nguyen from Bojack is actually a good example of this, its own unfortunate whitewashing via Brie aside)
Right, generally "goofy" stereotypes are more seen as lazy ways of telling jokes these days.
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Oh lord. That show is all sorts of problematic.
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Movie Bob's take on the issue
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Sure the show has always been playing with stereotypes.
I've always had an issue with Apu's character for the same reasons that have been said in that documentary (or whatever it was). Except the dumb criticism about the voice actor being whiteBut no, I wasn't offended by Lisa's comment.
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Part 2.
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Hey, would you look at that: Matt Groening Finally Weighs in on the Apu Controversy, wonder wha-
“Not really. I’m proud of what we do on the show. And I think it’s a time in our culture where people love to pretend they’re offended.”
…GODDAMMIT
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I guess this is starting to become old news by now, but for the sake of completion, here's part 3 of MovieBob's analysis
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Oh…. oh wow.... I know this is supposed to be about the Apu controversy but..... Marge doesn't say too much in the original "some things will be dealt with at a later date" clip so I didn't notice this before but... Bob is using a lot of Marge clips here and.... Oh wow.... Julie Kavner isn't sounding too good...... Oh no....
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