How did Brook make it ahead of Sanji, he's the least interesting SH by a distance (opinion). I'm really surprised as I didn't think many people cared for him until this thread.
Love and Loathe: Daily One Piece Character Analysis
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How did Brook make it ahead of Sanji, he's the least interesting SH by a distance (opinion). I'm really surprised as I didn't think many people cared for him until this thread.
Honestly, Sanji is one of the more polarizing Strawhats (though he still has a very devoted fanbase and people seem to like him overall). I wonder where he will rank once we have evaluated all of the SH members. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't make the top four.
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Honestly, Sanji is one of the more polarizing Strawhats (though he still has a very devoted fanbase and people seem to like him overall). I wonder where he will rank once we have evaluated all of the SH members. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't make the top four.
Yeah, I know what you mean. He has gotten progressively worse since the timeskip and not just because he's been getting his ass kicked, but Brook has to be the least memorable SH by a distance to me. That's why I'm shocked he's being ranked so highly.
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If people really had evaluated Brook based on what we've seen from him so far, he could've got top score, but some people bashed on him because of the lack of screen time which I think it's quite unfair, since he's the newest member.
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I guess the next on is Bellemere.
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Love & Loathe #16 Let's get our tangerine on! It's time to evaluate: Bellemere
…and here we go...Here's the deal: We are looking to hyper-critique a character to try and pinpoint what makes them great and what makes them terrible. After enough people respond, I will organize what are the best and worst traits of the character, and compile an evaluation post later. Also,don't worry if you have the same answers as others,the point is to figure out a common denominator for the character.
So the two questions for you are:
What one thing do you consistently love about Bellemere?
What one thing do you consistently loathe about Bellemere?And give Bellemere a rating of between 1 and 5, with 5 being the highest(.5's are acceptable - ex. 1.5 or 4.5). I will tally these.
Enjoy.
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Love: She's a fantastic and devoted mother to her kids and who cares if they're not blood related? Love bounds people stronger than blood.
Loathe: Her haircut. I truly do loathe that thing. With a passion.
Rating: 4.5/5
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Love: Best mother figure in One Piece.
Hate: What's wrong with her hair?
4.5/5
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@Lao:
I guess the next on is Bellemere.
! must feel good to win so hard.
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Love: She acted as a loving parent towards Nami and Nojiko even though they weren't blood related.
Loathe: her hair is just…what?
3/5 -
I know one piece has a lot of characters but shouldn't we slow down a bit? gives more people time to actually vote and give their opinions. personally i know i dont HAVE to participate but i would love to but i feel rushed especially if im having a busy day. If not, its fine either way just asking because i would really like to participate more as im sure others would as well.
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I know one piece has a lot of characters but shouldn't we slow down a bit? gives more people time to actually vote and give their opinions. personally i know i dont HAVE to participate but i would love to but i feel rushed especially if im having a busy day. If not, its fine either way just asking because i would really like to participate more as im sure others would as well.
Well, its a 'daily' analysis thread. I try to give the characters as close to 24 hours as possible for people to vote but I have a life and responsibilities as well so the times don't always line up very well. If people would like for me to update every other day (meaning every character would get closer to 48 hours than 24) then I would be open to that. Hell, it might even be easier for me. Feedback please.
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Love: What's not to love about this character? She's a great mother, yet also a notably tough ex-Marine who knows how to handle herself. She is genuinely caring for her daughters, has a great sense of humor, and is able to bear the weight of being a single, surrogate parent better than most. Even up until her untimely death she went out like a total badass, nearly killing Arlong, and unflinchingly allowed Arlong to execute her rather than go the rest of her life on the island without ever seeing her daughters again or mentioning their existence.
Even though her execution was pretty damn traumatic, she made a tremendous impact as a very respectable and loving role model. Most of Nami's most admirable and most memorable aspects since becoming a Strawhat have had at least some connection to her mother and living up to her best wishes.
I think the hair suits her. It's part of her Marine upbringing that she upheld to her last moments. It's also visibly military regulation, yet distinctive and still feminine.
Loath: We didn't see much of her–she is literally only in 2 1/2 chapters. Then she gets murdered in cold blood. Why, Arlong, WHYYY??
5/5
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Well, its a 'daily' analysis thread. I try to give the characters as close to 24 hours as possible for people to vote but I have a life and responsibilities as well so the times don't always line up very well. If people would like for me to update every other day (meaning every character would get closer to 48 hours than 24) then I would be open to that. Hell, it might even be easier for me. Feedback please.
48-72 hrs would be my vote and yea it would definitely help you out as well as give the thread longevity
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I knew it was only a matter of time before the "OMG BEST ONE PIECE MOM EVAR!" showed up. Rant incoming…
Loathe: Pretty much everything about her character. The woman is responsible for Nami turning out as she did: from flaunting her sexuality in order to get what she wants, to her hunger for money. A lot of people champion her for "sacrificing" herself for her children, when all she really did was get killed in front of them for something as trivial as a title. She wanted to be recognized as mother so badly that she was willing to get murdered in front of her children and (and this is the worst part) doom them and the rest of her village to be enslaved by a pack of violent, xenophobic fishmen.
Obviously Oda didn't go that deep into detail, but given Arlong's hatred of humans and his violent tendencies, as well as some remarks he made during the Arlong Arc, you know he (and/or his fellow fishmen) took advantage of Nami as more than just his cartographer and occasional punching bag. It's not a pretty picture, but given the circumstances, it's a safe assumption to make, just like it's something that can be assumed about Hancock's time as a slave.
Now, Naruto discussion is hardly a topic to bring up in here, but this is relevant: When Naruto's parents "sacrificed" themselves to seal the Nine Tails inside of him, everyone in the discussion thread ragged on them endlessly for orphaning their child ("Yellow Flash Parenting Skills" is what they called it, I believe), yet Belle-Mere is hailed a hero for doing the same thing? Hell, Naruto, arguably, came out of that better than Nami did, since he just got ostracized, instead of enslaved and possibly sexually abused for eight years by a bunch of xenophobes.
Not to mention Naruto could at least change people's perception of him, which gave him some hope of escaping his personal hell, whereas Nami was permanently trapped by Arlong because he held her entire village hostage. Had Nami not met Luffy, she'd most likely still be stuck trying to gather up the 100 million berries that she needed to "buy the island's freedom" back from Arlong.
To be a bit more topical: I saw Otohime and her "don't hate my killer" ideals get tons of criticism when Shirahoshi was evaluated (and Hiriluk's quakery also came under fire), but whenever Belle-Mere is brought up, it's nothing but endless praise. Really? It's all love? No one is even willing to fathom the notion that "Huh, maybe traumatizing her kids by getting killed in front of them wasn't cool"? That's always baffled me.
I know this isn't a very popular opinion and that people will chime in that she had no other choice, or something similar, but, in my opinion, if she'd kept her mouth shut, put her pride aside and just exited her home peacefully and paid the money that Arlong was demanding, she probably could've avoided her pointless death. As a former high-ranking Marine (high enough to wear the Justice coat), her pleas to the organization would've probably been heeded more than Genzo's. All she had to do was grin and bear it, say she lived alone and paid the money and Arlong and his flunkies would've been on their merry way. If I'm recalling correctly, Arlong didn't raise a stink about how many settings were on the table after Genzo lied and said he was coming over to eat with Belle-Mere. The official census of the village already listed her as living alone, so they really had no reason to suspect foul play. To make matters worse, Arlong was already leaving, until Belle-Mere decided to open her big mouth and spill the beans!
Obviously this is all conjecture, but they probably could've gotten away with the lie (in fact, they already had gotten away with it) and bought some time to come up with a plan to try to come out of their predicament safely, had Belle-Mere just swallowed her pride and stayed quiet.
Anyway, this has gone on long enough, so I'll end the Loathe portion of my post here.
Love (and I use the term very loosely): She rescued Nojiko and Nami from a war zone and raised them relatively well for a few years.
If you ask me, One Piece's best mother is, and will likely always be, Curly Dadan. She's a woman who had two children dropped on her doorstep, but still (even if reluctantly) raised them as her own and fiercely defended them, even after they left the nest and one passed away. Of course, who cares about her, she's fat!
Rating: 1/5, and that's only because I can't go lower.
P.S. Great thread idea…
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I agree. My vote goes to 48-72 hours!
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! I knew it was only a matter of time before the "OMG BEST ONE PIECE MOM EVAR!" showed up. Rant incoming…
! Loathe: Pretty much everything about her character. The woman is responsible for Nami turning out as she did: from flaunting her sexuality in order to get what she wants, to her hunger for money. A lot of people champion her for "sacrificing" herself for her children, when all she really did was get killed in front of them for something as trivial as a title. She wanted to be recognized as mother so badly that she was willing to get murdered in front of her children and (and this is the worst part) doom them and the rest of her village to be enslaved by a pack of violent, xenophobic fishmen.
! Obviously Oda didn't go that deep into detail, but given Arlong's hatred of humans and his violent tendencies, as well as some remarks he made during the Arlong Arc, you know he (and/or his fellow fishmen) took advantage of Nami as more than just his cartographer and occasional punching bag. It's not a pretty picture, but given the circumstances, it's a safe assumption to make, just like it's something that can be assumed about Hancock's time as a slave.
! Now, Naruto discussion is hardly a topic to bring up in here, but this is relevant: When Naruto's parents "sacrificed" themselves to seal the Nine Tails inside of him, everyone in the discussion thread ragged on them endlessly for orphaning their child ("Yellow Flash Parenting Skills" is what they called it, I believe), yet Belle-Mere is hailed a hero for doing the same thing? Hell, Naruto, arguably, came out of that better than Nami did, since he just got ostracized, instead of enslaved and possibly sexually abused for eight years by a bunch of xenophobes.
! Not to mention Naruto could at least change people's perception of him, which gave him some hope of escaping his personal hell, whereas Nami was permanently trapped by Arlong because he held her entire village hostage. Had Nami not met Luffy, she'd most likely still be stuck trying to gather up the 100 million berries that she needed to "buy the island's freedom" back from Arlong.
! To be a bit more topical: I saw Otohime and her "don't hate my killer" ideals get tons of criticism when Shirahoshi was evaluated (and Hiriluk's quakery also came under fire), but whenever Belle-Mere is brought up, it's nothing but endless praise. Really? It's all love? No one is even willing to fathom the notion that "Huh, maybe traumatizing her kids by getting killed in front of them wasn't cool"? That's always baffled me.
! I know this isn't a very popular opinion and that people will chime in that she had no other choice, or something similar, but, in my opinion, if she'd kept her mouth shut, put her pride aside and just exited her home peacefully and paid the money that Arlong was demanding, she probably could've avoided her pointless death. As a former high-ranking Marine (high enough to wear the Justice coat), her pleas to the organization would've probably been heeded more than Genzo's. All she had to do was grin and bear it, say she lived alone and paid the money and Arlong and his flunkies would've been on their merry way. If I'm recalling correctly, Arlong didn't raise a stink about how many settings were on the table after Genzo lied and said he was coming over to eat with Belle-Mere. The official census of the village already listed her as living alone, so they really had no reason to suspect foul play. To make matters worse, Arlong was already leaving, until Belle-Mere decided to open her big mouth and spill the beans!
! Obviously this is all conjecture, but they probably could've gotten away with the lie (in fact, they already had gotten away with it) and bought some time to come up with a plan to try to come out of their predicament safely, had Belle-Mere just swallowed her pride and stayed quiet.
! Anyway, this has gone on long enough, so I'll end the Loathe portion of my post here.
! Love (and I use the term very loosely): She rescued Nojiko and Nami from a war zone and raised them relatively well for a few years.
! If you ask me, One Piece's best mother is, and will likely always be, Curly Dadan. She's a woman who had two children dropped on her doorstep, but still (even if reluctantly) raised them as her own and fiercely defended them, even after they left the nest and one passed away. Of course, who cares about her, she's fat!
! Rating: 1/5, and that's only because I can't go lower.
! P.S. Great thread idea…Putted it all in a spoiler since it would take up a lot of space, but I agree with your points.
Love: That adopting Nami and Nojiko made her want to mature more.
Loathe: It seemed somewhat immature and selfish of her to die because she wanted to look like a good mother by doing so…also, her haircut is weird and if Captain Hina was able to keep her long hair ever since she was a recruit, then there's no excuse for Bellemere's hair looking like it got ran over by a lawnmower running on meth.
2.5/5
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This post is deleted!
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+1 votes for 48-72 hours
Sometimes I need more time to organize my thoughts on a character.
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Love: She's presented as a strong, independent and forward thinking woman.
Hate: Her sacrifice was stupid and pointless. If her secret dream was having a family then that's fine. But having a family has nothing to do with going around telling everyone that you have a family, especially to pirates that are taking your village hostage. Just hide them once a month when they come for the payment, seriously. I also hate that after putting a shotgun in Arlong's throat she didn't pull the trigger (that stuff always angers me).1/5 This thread made me realize how bad some characters are.
By the way, I like the voting to be about 24 hours long, that way the thread moves faster.
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Okay that's an interesting spin on things, that Bellmere's sacrifice doomed the children to a lifetime of servitude under Arlong all for the selfish satisfaction of being called "their mother." I suppose it depends on how much one reads into the reason Bellmere gives to Genzo. However, this pessimistic view assumes a lot about Bellmere's intentions.
-It assumes that Bellmere planned to get killed in front of her kids. It's important to point out that she admitted having kids when Nami and Nojiko were nowhere in sight and when she had no idea exactly where they were since Nami ran away. She clearly planned on being executed with her kids nowhere in sight. The cat was already out of the bag by the time Nami and Nojiko burst into the scene, eavesdropping without her knowing. What other choice did Bellmere have at that point? Reason with Arlong for a stay of execution? Endanger the kids by putting up a futile fight? Her fate was sealed by then.
-It assumes Bellmere knew what Arlong's intentions on the island were. Remember, she spent almost the whole time of Arlong's initial arrival on the island in the kitchen, oblivious to everything going on due to her remote locale. She did not hear Arlong's proclamation that the island was under his control. She only knew of his presence once he barged into the house. All she ever got to know was that each household had to pay up a specific amount, all the while reeling from a savage beating from Arlong. No one ever told her this would be a monthly payment, so it actually did sound like a on-time act of extortion before they were on their way or at least a temporary one, never being told their stay would be permanent.
-It assumes that Bellmere knew that Nami would have been exploited by Arlong for her cartography skills, or that Arlong's crew senselessly abuse them for any reason. Again, a huge leap. For all she knew Arlong just wanted the money. Genzo even walked up to her and told her that if she payed up everything would be fine with Arlong confirmation, and for what reason would she have to doubt Genzo's word? None of the humans learn of Arlong's need for a cartographer until Bellmere was already dead, and it would have been pretty unlikely for her to think that Arlong would need to turn to a human child for maps.
-It assumes that, had Bellmere lied about having kids, that Nami an Nojiko could have remained safe and escaped the island. Again, Bellmere never knew the whereabouts of Nami until she suddenly showed up out of nowhere or that Nojiko found her yet. Nor did she know for any certainty that they were in a position to successfully escape the island or evade discovery by Arlong's crew. Had Bellmere lied, she would left Nami and Nojiko purely in the hands of fate. So if Arlong's crew either found the kids or foiled an escaped attempt, Bellmere would have had no way to keep her kids safe having already paid for herself. Rather Arlong may very well have killed all 3 of them for lying to him. On the other hand, paying for the kids completely ensured their survival during Arlong's stay.
From my point of view, Bellmere's reasoning for "wanting to be called their mother" is more than what it appears at face value. In part, it meant that she could not simply wash her hands of their whole existence or the unknown perils that faced them alone, leaving their well being or even survival up to chance just to save her own skin. It also tied with her last encounter with Nami, where Nami shared her own doubts about whether she or possibly her sister Nojiko were even considered her kids, saying that she believed Bellmere secretly wished the two girls weren't around so she could live more freely with more money at her personal disposal. Heck, the last thing she said to Nami (after Nami hurt her feelings) was that Nami should just get out and never come back! Obviously that misunderstanding weighted heavily in her heart when she made her decision for Arlong considering for all she knew, Nami still felt that way. Her acknowledgement as her mother in front of Arlong and Genzo was as much for her sake as for Nami's, and Nami knows it, which is why she has never been shown holding a grudge against Bellmere since then for her allegedly selfish and heartless act and still considers her her mother 8+ years after she sacrificed herself.
Yes, it's a shame what Nami had to go through but that was just rotten luck and not something Bellmere could have reasonably foreseen, especially to the extent it happened. If Bellemeres stated reason existed in a complete vacuum in relation to what had been happening earlier, maybe, but it's certianly not the case here.
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48-72 hrs would be my vote and yea it would definitely help you out as well as give the thread longevity
+1 votes for 48-72 hours
Sometimes I need more time to organize my thoughts on a character.
I agree. My vote goes to 48-72 hours!
Easy enough. Bellemere will still be a one day evaluation but tomorrows character will get between 48-72 hours. Let's see how that goes.
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Easy enough. Bellemere will still be a one day evaluation but tomorrows character will get between 48-72 hours. Let's see how that goes.
If it has to be longer, make it 48 hours. 2 days should be plenty of time. I preferred 24 myself, but if it needs to be longer, so be it.
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@Mr.:
It it has to be longer, make it 48 hours. 2 days should be plenty of time. I preferred 24 myself, but if it needs to be longer, so be it.
Well, my initial thought is to make it between 48-72. Meaning, if the thread dies during the third day (as in, no one comments on it for like eight hours) between the hours of…idk...55-63, I will just make the APE. I like the 24 hour format too - but if it will help the thread I am willing to try something new.
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@Mr.:
Okay that's an interesting spin on things, that Bellmere's sacrifice doomed the children to a lifetime of servitude under Arlong all for the selfish satisfaction of being called "their mother." I suppose it depends on how much one reads into the reason Bellmere gives to Genzo. However, this pessimistic view assumes a lot about Bellmere's intentions.
-It assumes that Bellmere planned to get killed in front of her kids. It's important to point out that she admitted having kids when Nami and Nojiko were nowhere in sight and when she had no idea exactly where they were since Nami ran away. She clearly planned on being executed with her kids nowhere in sight. The cat was already out of the bag by the time Nami and Nojiko burst into the scene, eavesdropping without her knowing. What other choice did Bellmere have at that point? Reason with Arlong for a stay of execution? Endanger the kids by putting up a futile fight? Her fate was sealed by then.
Dying in front of them was an aggravating, but secundary. The real problem is that she did something that resulted in her own death and for a stupid (and clearly stated) reason.
-It assumes Bellmere knew what Arlong's intentions on the island were. Remember, she spent almost the whole time of Arlong's initial arrival on the island in the kitchen, oblivious to everything going on due to her remote locale. She did not hear Arlong's proclamation that the island was under his control. She only knew of his presence once he barged into the house. All she ever got to know was that each household had to pay up a specific amount, all the while reeling from a savage beating from Arlong. No one ever told her this would be a monthly payment, so it actually did sound like a on-time act of extortion before they were on their way or at least a temporary one, never being told their stay would be permanent.
How does that change anything? She was told she had to pay. She also learnt that the pirates didn't know anyting about Nami and Nojiko because they weren't in the register. And then she went on and sacrificed herself while ratting out the kids.
-It assumes that Bellmere knew that Nami would have been exploited by Arlong for her cartography skills, or that Arlong's crew senselessly abuse them for any reason. Again, a huge leap. For all she knew Arlong just wanted the money. Genzo even walked up to her and told her that if she payed up everything would be fine with Arlong confirmation, and for what reason would she have to doubt Genzo's word? None of the humans learn of Arlong's need for a cartographer until Bellmere was already dead, and it would have been pretty unlikely for her to think that Arlong would need to turn to a human child for maps.
That has nothing to do with choosing to die while revealing the existence of her daughters to pirates.
-It assumes that, had Bellmere lied about having kids, that Nami an Nojiko could have remained safe and escaped the island. Again, Bellmere never knew the whereabouts of Nami until she suddenly showed up out of nowhere or that Nojiko found her yet. Nor did she know for any certainty that they were in a position to successfully escape the island or evade discovery by Arlong's crew. Had Bellmere lied, she would left Nami and Nojiko purely in the hands of fate. So if Arlong's crew either found the kids or foiled an escaped attempt, Bellmere would have had no way to keep her kids safe having already paid for herself. Rather Arlong may very well have killed all 3 of them for lying to him. On the other hand, paying for the kids completely ensured their survival during Arlong's stay.
Not really. Bellemere knew Nami and Nojiko couldn't escape, but that doesn't mean they couldn't hide somewhere, especially since nobody was looking for them. But all of this is speculation, because all Bellemere said is that she couldn't say she didn't have a family. She didn't throw a line in there saying anything about wanting to ensure the kid's safety. And remember Arlong and his crew were already leaving in the direction opposite to the village with the money. It wasn't a desperate action or anything. It was all deliberate and "justified" with stupid.
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I didn't expect things to get this heated for Bellemere. Oh well.
Love
Her story. Thing is, you can go on and on about "it would've been smarter to do this and that", but ultimately, this is a fictional story. And sometimes you need to take a few liberties to make it interesting. The main theme of Bellemere and her family was money and being poor, and what happens when you don't have enough to live a good life. It is a theme that hits hard if well written, and Oda wrote it perfectly. It may sound a bit idiotic, but I'll gladly ignore Bellemere not lying in favor of a good, tear-jerking story. It flowed well with the tale and the character, and that is what matters most.
Furthermore, Bellemere had no idea where her children was when Arlong asked her. If Arlong found the children, it wouldn't take long for him to realize nobody paid for them, and thus would probably kill Nojiko on the spot and enslave Nami anyway. Nor could Bellemere predict the future - in her present, all she knew was that her two children might die if nobody paid for them, and that she might never see them again. Lastly, even if Bellemere used to be a marine, she is still a former one - the word of an actual active marine would probably weigh heavier.And her haircut. I LOVE her haircut. Its badass. One of the most unique hairstyles for the women in the series, and after lady after lady with long pretty hair I appericate it a lot. Bellemere really surprised me when I first read her story, because up till then I had never read a manga nor book or even seen a movie with a female character like that - a strong character who takes orders from nobody, a badass mother who want the best for her kids even if they don't have the money, a character who is pretty but not oversexualized and who controls her own femininity.
Loathe
Nothing. As a flashback character, her actions are much more limited than a present character, since they have to fulfill a specific purpose within an usually rather short amounth of pages. Bellemere fulfilled that purpose wonderfully, and helped set the stage for one of the first real fights in the series.
Update: saw it mentioned by Light Bro and had to agree. You're really going to give wine to your daughters? There is also the scolding problem but since she was only present in such few chapters, I'll leave it.4.5/5 Also, Panda's post is wonderful. Its better than anything I could ever write for this character.
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Love: She was a mother trough and trough. Even if they were adopted, she loved Nami and Nojiko unconditionally and gave them everything poor mother just could give. Even her life. Plus she was just badass! She was even willing to fight a whole group fishmen pirates (even if it didn't work out).
! Also B-O-D-Y. :ninja:
Loathe: Much like Garp, her childishness and temper sometimes got in the way of her upbringing methods. She often beat her daughters for little reason, (tough unlike Garp she usually at least had one) and even drove Nami away over a quarrel. And as much as I hate to say this, if you can't even afford food for both yourself and your children, it might be the best to give them for someone else.
Also was she really going to give her daughters alcohol? :blink:
Overall: 4.5/5
PS. Wow! Didn't see this coming. :blink: Some people really didn't like the way she died huh?
Either way I agree with Mr. Luffy. If there was any chance, any chance that Nami and Nojiko would be found or stumbled across Arlong they would've been dead! Bellemere simply refused to gamble with her daughters' lives.
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Everyone complaining about Bellemeres stupidity, and how Nami/Nojiko should've gone all Jews hiding from Nazi germany for their entire lives are not considering a few things:
A) Arlong would obviously keep a close watch on the Ex-marine who tried to murder him.
B) Would you really trust Nami and Nojiko to stay in some basement for 8 years, and not get rash and found out?
C) Remember Goza? Arlong finding out, or even suspecting that he'd gotten played would result in everyone in Cocoyashi dying, most definetely including the children. Bellemere choosing to stay alive would have made everyone live in constant jeopardy. She paid for the safety of everyone with her life, not just her daughters.And really, about Namis abduction. Noone could have seen that coming, so blaming Bellemere for that is a dirty move. And what do you think would've happened if Bellemere had kept Nami hidden?
"Where did all these maps come from?"
"Errr, I drew them myself!"
–>Arlong abducts Bellemere
-->Bellemere can't do cartography for shit
-->Arlong realizes he's been lied to, cue murders, ransacking of the village, finding and taking Nami anyway, etc.Love: By OP standards, Bellemere is a normal person, but she did something extraordinary. She has no bizarro quirks, powers or looks, but in this case it works to her advantage: She's just a down-on-her luck single mother, who paid the ultimate price for the sake of her children. On the "relatability" scale, she's through the roof.
Loathe: Nothing really. She used her meager time in the manga very well.4.5/5, good flashback, good character.
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I'm also surprised by these complaints against Bellemere. Huh.
Love: Her motherly love. Even as a single mother with barely anything, she made sure Nami and Nojiko had a home, things to eat, clothes etc. She didn't care they weren't blood related, they were all family regardless. And yes, to this very day, her sacrifice gets to me. A gun in her face, blood trickling down, Fishmen surrounding her, and what does she say?
"Nami! Nojiko! I love you <3"
sniff Who's chopping onions back there???
Loathe: Much like Hiruluk and Brook, I can't say a negative thing about her.
5/5
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Love: Sisters doing it for themselves. You have to admire Bellemere for the strength it took to run from the brutal and pointless fighting just to rescue two children she had no connection to. And then to bring them up on her own. That takes heart, determination and commitment.
And then to die for those children… hardcore. But you can tell that even if things had turned for the bad, she regretted none of it. And that is her lasting legacy to her daughters.Loathe: All i can fault her on is not being as prepared for the harshness of the world as she thought she was. She saved her kids, but it would have been better if she could have found a way to live for them.
3.5/5 -
Love: Bellemere was a strong woman and one of the few One Piece females to not be overly-sexualized. She was respected not as a woman, but as a marine. The way she threatened Arlong with a gun to the throat took guts, and she's not afraid to show her motherly side with the adoption of two homeless children. All she wanted was to be a mother…and she had to pay for it in the end.
Loathe: I guess it really was her own selfishness that led to her death. Still, I'd argue that the only way to continue living after tricking Arlong would be to secretly send the children off on their own or something, and no way Bellemere would agree to that. Also her hair.
4/5
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! I knew it was only a matter of time before the "OMG BEST ONE PIECE MOM EVAR!" showed up. Rant incoming…
! Loathe: Pretty much everything about her character. The woman is responsible for Nami turning out as she did: from flaunting her sexuality in order to get what she wants, to her hunger for money. A lot of people champion her for "sacrificing" herself for her children, when all she really did was get killed in front of them for something as trivial as a title. She wanted to be recognized as mother so badly that she was willing to get murdered in front of her children and (and this is the worst part) doom them and the rest of her village to be enslaved by a pack of violent, xenophobic fishmen.
! Obviously Oda didn't go that deep into detail, but given Arlong's hatred of humans and his violent tendencies, as well as some remarks he made during the Arlong Arc, you know he (and/or his fellow fishmen) took advantage of Nami as more than just his cartographer and occasional punching bag. It's not a pretty picture, but given the circumstances, it's a safe assumption to make, just like it's something that can be assumed about Hancock's time as a slave.
! Now, Naruto discussion is hardly a topic to bring up in here, but this is relevant: When Naruto's parents "sacrificed" themselves to seal the Nine Tails inside of him, everyone in the discussion thread ragged on them endlessly for orphaning their child ("Yellow Flash Parenting Skills" is what they called it, I believe), yet Belle-Mere is hailed a hero for doing the same thing? Hell, Naruto, arguably, came out of that better than Nami did, since he just got ostracized, instead of enslaved and possibly sexually abused for eight years by a bunch of xenophobes.
! Not to mention Naruto could at least change people's perception of him, which gave him some hope of escaping his personal hell, whereas Nami was permanently trapped by Arlong because he held her entire village hostage. Had Nami not met Luffy, she'd most likely still be stuck trying to gather up the 100 million berries that she needed to "buy the island's freedom" back from Arlong.
! To be a bit more topical: I saw Otohime and her "don't hate my killer" ideals get tons of criticism when Shirahoshi was evaluated (and Hiriluk's quakery also came under fire), but whenever Belle-Mere is brought up, it's nothing but endless praise. Really? It's all love? No one is even willing to fathom the notion that "Huh, maybe traumatizing her kids by getting killed in front of them wasn't cool"? That's always baffled me.
! I know this isn't a very popular opinion and that people will chime in that she had no other choice, or something similar, but, in my opinion, if she'd kept her mouth shut, put her pride aside and just exited her home peacefully and paid the money that Arlong was demanding, she probably could've avoided her pointless death. As a former high-ranking Marine (high enough to wear the Justice coat), her pleas to the organization would've probably been heeded more than Genzo's. All she had to do was grin and bear it, say she lived alone and paid the money and Arlong and his flunkies would've been on their merry way. If I'm recalling correctly, Arlong didn't raise a stink about how many settings were on the table after Genzo lied and said he was coming over to eat with Belle-Mere. The official census of the village already listed her as living alone, so they really had no reason to suspect foul play. To make matters worse, Arlong was already leaving, until Belle-Mere decided to open her big mouth and spill the beans!
! Obviously this is all conjecture, but they probably could've gotten away with the lie (in fact, they already had gotten away with it) and bought some time to come up with a plan to try to come out of their predicament safely, had Belle-Mere just swallowed her pride and stayed quiet.
! Anyway, this has gone on long enough, so I'll end the Loathe portion of my post here.
! Love (and I use the term very loosely): She rescued Nojiko and Nami from a war zone and raised them relatively well for a few years.
! If you ask me, One Piece's best mother is, and will likely always be, Curly Dadan. She's a woman who had two children dropped on her doorstep, but still (even if reluctantly) raised them as her own and fiercely defended them, even after they left the nest and one passed away. Of course, who cares about her, she's fat!
! Rating: 1/5, and that's only because I can't go lower.
! P.S. Great thread idea…Yeah, pretty much agree with that one.
Also, when you put a gun in pirates mouth, blow his brains out, instead of boasting, for crying out loud. We have absolute justice doctrine for a reason, you know?
When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.
Final Judgement: 1/5
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Love: I loved her desire to save her children no matter what, even dying for them. That was one of the things she was there for, and she at least died without regrets. She was a kind person, who cared deeply for her loved ones, and that deserves a praise, no matter what people may think. She saved Nami and Nojiko back there and raised them as her own daughters. Other marines would have most likely left them right there, thinking of them as nothing more than a burden. If she wasn't there for them, Nami would most likely never exist.
I also loved her badasness as an elite troop. Seriously, I can't imagine another person being so cool by aiming the rifle into the mouth of a fishman. Oda really can do action scenes well.
Also, she cooks nice food.
Loath: Even though she cared for her daughters, you can't really call her an ideal mother, can you? Dying right in front of their eyes was touching, but it was pretty stupid for her to blow her daughters' cover. "I can't deny that I have no kids" is nice and all, but did she know, that giving a 100 000 beli for one month and dying with a smile and absolutely no concern about what happens after that. Did she expect the villagers to help them with the money? I think she did. But on one wonderful day, the villagers will not even have enough money to pay for themselves. By dying she could have completely destroyed the future of Nojiko and Nami. It was a pure miracle that Nami was recruited into the Arlong pirates and Nojiko was left alone getting money from Nami till she grew up. Bellemere couldn't have expected such a turn of events. This is just my opinion, but she should have hidden Nami and Nojiko and live peacefully. Poor, but normal.
Also, when she stuck her rifle into Arlong's mouth, shouldn't she just shoot and let the bastard die? Who cares about you being a marine, the whole damn village's well being is at stake! Yet she had to wait some seconds and tell him all her history in details. It was really annoying.
Overall, 2/5. Not the best flashback character out there. -
If you ask me, One Piece's best mother is, and will likely always be, Curly Dadan. She's a woman who had two children dropped on her doorstep, but still (even if reluctantly) raised them as her own and fiercely defended them, even after they left the nest and one passed away. Of course, who cares about her, she's fat!
This so much, I love Dadan with a passion.
EDIT: That being said, I like Bellemere.
Love: The way she took in Nokijo and Nami and raised them. She did her best to make them live their lives happily despite being poor and didn't care about not being related by blood, they were a true family.
Loathe: Not a thing.
4/5
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Everyone arguing about how stupid it was for Bellmere to die are forgetting this:
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[/hide]Her trying to hide her children wouldn't have worked and she knew it already
And about her not shooting Arlong…Yeah, that was a mistake but maybe she never met a Fishman before. I don't it's much of stretch to think that Bellmere was probably a small-time Marine, someone who wasn't stationed at the Grand Line and didn't know there were crazy creatures who could crush a shotgun with their teeth. Oh, and there's another thing. If she DID shoot Arlong and killed him, she still would have to take on all the other fishmen, who would all be incredibly pissed off by that
Love: A great mother and role model for her children. One of the most relatable characters in OP. I think it's a great testament to Oda's writing that he manages to make such an impactful character with so little screentime.
Loathe: I don't think her sacrifice was stupid and I don't mind her hair. So, nothing
5/5
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Yeah, pretty much agree with that one.
Also, when you put a gun in pirates mouth, blow his brains out, instead of boasting, for crying out loud. We have absolute justice doctrine for a reason, you know?
When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.
Final Judgement: 1/5
Seriously, you scare me dude… I wouldn't like to meet you IRL >.>
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Honestly, and I say this in a completely non-judgmental way, I can't help but feel, at least a little, that some of the people giving more severe critiques are simply too cynical to appreciate One Piece in its moments like these. As much as it may sound like it, that's not meant to be an attack on anyone's opinion; it's still a perfectly valid view to see things through. I do, however, find it a little bit sad.
To me, most especially at moments like this, One Piece is a romance. Not, of course, in the sense of a relationship of lovers, but in the sense – to use a silly joke to demonstrate -- that wearing a suit of armor is a man's romance. It is a romance in the sense that having one's dreams destroyed is worse even than death; it is a romance of ideals. That, really, is what I feel the takeaway from moments such as these is meant to be. As readers, we are meant to appreciate the ideals that characters embody, purely and above all else, without allowing that view to be tainted by the cynicism of becoming stuck on the repercussions of holding those ideals so closely. Of course, that ultimately requires a fashion of suspension of disbelief, to which everyone has their own limits. To take one of the more extreme examples of this yet, consider Shirahoshi's refusal to have outed Hodi as her mother's killer. In terms of the ideal, that was a wonderful moment. The only way to stop the never-ending cycle of violence and hatred is to simply stop, rather than forever attempting to balance the scales of retribution. In practice, however, it was -- to quote, no doubt, quite a number of people -- 'stupid'. It simply becomes a question of to what extent one can distance oneself from the fallout and implications and facts, to simply appreciate the pure ideal being presented.
To bring things back around to Bellemere, then -- putting aside all the reasoning for what she did being horrible and selfish and stupid, along with all the reasoning for why it was rather completely justified -- her actions put forth the ideal that the worst possible thing a parent could do would be to deny their children's existence, or their unbreakable bond to them. That, to me, and I suspect to many others who find Bellemere an incredible character, is beautiful. Is it necessarily practical, in any sort of real context? No, not necessarily. The sad fact of life is, one simply cannot always live by one's ideals; that's just not the way our world works. In a fictional world, however -- crafted, at times, to be less about what it 'is', and more about what it 'represents' -- things can be a little different, if you can accept them that way.
As a short aside, I'm going to echo something Daz said, but more strongly; here, I'm afraid, I actually do intend to be somewhat judgmental. Blaming Bellemere for what happened to her children is disgusting. Blunt, I know, but if anything it understates how I feel. The one at fault was Arlong, and his crew. You can argue that Bellemere's actions contributed to what happened, that she could have made things better by acting otherwise; you could argue, too, that this is not the case. All irrelevant. Bellemere was a victim, along with everyone else in the village, and laying any sort of blame at her feet is the core of what I find to be some of the most hurtful, damaging, and just plain wrong thinking that exists in the world.
All of that aside, since I haven't said it yet, this is a wonderful thread! No score from me, obviously; honestly, I doubt I'd ever feel comfortable simply attaching a number to a character. I do hope this little litany isn't too much of a derail. While I admittedly spoke more in generalities than anything else, I did at least try to use those generalities to convey some of my feelings about how I felt about Bellemere, and the purpose she served, to remain within the spirit of the thread, if not quite the form.
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@Lao:
Did she expect the villagers to help them with the money? I think she did. But on one wonderful day, the villagers will not even have enough money to pay for themselves. By dying she could have completely destroyed the future of Nojiko and Nami. It was a pure miracle that Nami was recruited into the Arlong pirates and Nojiko was left alone getting money from Nami till she grew up. Bellemere couldn't have expected such a turn of events.
I think you might want to rephrase that. Also, where was it stated that Nami paid for Nojikos life? It always seemed appearant that the village seemed more than willing to help paying, but had no money at the moment to do so. No one had been saving up, no one knew they should have. But in the future, lifestyle adjustments could be made, money could be saved and set aside (as indeed would be necesseray if they had to pay Arlong all the time), and the village could collectively put aside money to provide for the daughters. There is nothing suggesting that this is not what happened with Nojiko.
@Lao:
This is just my opinion, but she should have hidden Nami and Nojiko and live peacefully. Poor, but normal.
As "normal" as you can be with two tiny daughters living in some basement their entire lives under constant threat of them and everyone else getting murdered. You are operating on the assumption hiding the kids away would be instantaneous and easy-peasy and totally not dangerous, and also something that could be coordinated on the fly while Bellemere was getting tortured, and spoonfed the info "Money per persona or death". The sacrifice was very much a heat of the moment type deal.
Yeah, pretty much agree with that one.
Also, when you put a gun in pirates mouth, blow his brains out, instead of boasting, for crying out loud. We have absolute justice doctrine for a reason, you know?
When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.
Final Judgement: 1/5
@Lao:
Also, when she stuck her rifle into Arlong's mouth, shouldn't she just shoot and let the bastard die? Who cares about you being a marine, the whole damn village's well being is at stake! Yet she had to wait some seconds and tell him all her history in details. It was really annoying.
I'm no military strategist, but this begs the question:
Then What?
She shoots Arlong in the mouth…and then what?
She gets torn to ribbons by his crew.NOT shooting Arlong was the only bargaining chip she had. She can order the goons to leave, or else their leader dies. If she just kills him right away she has absolutely no leverage, and his crew would most likely murder everyone as revenge.
NOT shooting Arlong right away was the smart thing to do.
EDIT: Also, Panda said a bunch of right things.
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I was about to get into discussion, but I realised The Daz, Panda Bear, RazgrizX and some others already got it.
Love: What had already been said by those guys.
Loath: Nothing in particular.Bellmere 4.5/5
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This post is deleted!
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One last thing I wanna add to this is that none of the villagers who were trying to hide Nami and Nojiko even considered the possibility of keeping them in the island. They were trying to smuggle them out like what happened to Robin in Ohara. So none of them thought that trying to keep them hidden from Arlong was a good idea.
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Guys, when analizing a character you have to use what you are given. It's not fair judgement to handwave all the bad stuff with "what if she didn't know all this, but anticipated all that?".
Bellemere knew the Arlong Pirates were from the Grand Line and dangerous.
She knew she had to pay 100000 for an adult and 50000 for a kid.
She knew the pirates didn't know about Nami and Nojiko.
She probably expected the pirates to destroy all boats (as the doctor noted)
She saw Arlong and his crew leaving in the direction oposite to the Village after she paid.
She stopped them and told them about her kids.
She stated that it was because she wanted to be called a mother.Things that could have greatly improved the whole self sacrifice thing:
Throwing a line in there about the kids and the village safety "I know you'd find out eventually". That way we know it was not just some pride/selfishness sacrifice but a sacrifice for that what she said it's precious (her children, not the word "mother").
Making Arlong's crew suspicious about the whole situation. If Arlong asked looking straight in the eyes wheter she had children, then lying carries way more weight.My problem is that the whole thing was set so that when thing looked safe, she chose the losing option "because I want to be called a mother".
I know that One Piece is a romance, that people fight for their dreams with their lives, but self sacrifice is not heroic by itself. It's the last option, and Bellemere took it as her first. -
Love: Even with all her funny faults she was the best mom in the OP verse.
Loathe: I would have liked to know more about her marine days.
5/5
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Guys, when analizing a character you have to use what you are given. It's not fair judgement to handwave all the bad stuff with "what if she didn't know all this, but anticipated all that?".
Bellemere knew the Arlong Pirates were from the Grand Line and dangerous.
She knew she had to pay 100000 for an adult and 50000 for a kid.
She knew the pirates didn't know about Nami and Nojiko.
She probably expected the pirates to destroy all boats (as the doctor noted)
She saw Arlong and his crew leaving in the direction oposite to the Village after she paid.
She stopped them and told them about her kids.
She stated that it was because she wanted to be called a mother.Things that could have greatly improved the whole self sacrifice thing:
Throwing a line in there about the kids and the village safety "I know you'd find out eventually". That way we know it was not just some pride/selfishness sacrifice but a sacrifice for that what she said it's precious (her children, not the word "mother").
Making Arlong's crew suspicious about the whole situation. If Arlong asked looking straight in the eyes wheter she had children, then lying carries way more weight.My problem is that the whole thing was set so that when thing looked safe, she chose the losing option "because I want to be called a mother".
I know that One Piece is a romance, that people fight for their dreams with their lives, but self sacrifice is not heroic by itself. It's the last option, and Bellemere took it as her first.You're the one saying that hiding the kids every month would have worked. If Arlong had found out about them, they would all have died.
Have you never heard of "better safe than sorry"? She had to die in order to not risk the lives of her children.
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It's easier to hide when nobody's looking for you. And again, if "better safe than sorry" was part of her reasoning, it could have been stated properly. She didn't mention it at all, and even the line from the doctor about the boats was speculation on his part.
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Things that could have greatly improved the whole self sacrifice thing:
Throwing a line in there about the kids and the village safety "I know you'd find out eventually". That way we know it was not just some pride/selfishness sacrifice but a sacrifice for that what she said it's precious (her children, not the word "mother").
Making Arlong's crew suspicious about the whole situation. If Arlong asked looking straight in the eyes wheter she had children, then lying carries way more weight.It wouldn't. This is supposed to be an emotional scene and you want her to just rationally explain her actions like she's some kind of robot? It would have cheapened the scene.
"Nami, Nojiko. I love you <3. And you would have died if I didn't sacrifice myself <3"
Honestly, that page I posted should be enough to convince you she was thinking things through.
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Yes, yes, I've waited so long for this.
Love: She was 20 when she left the Marines and, judging by her coat, she had already reached the rank of Captain or higher at a fairly young age. For ten years she had lived in poverty, barely eating, leaving her days of tough training behind. And yet she managed to knock Arlong down. She was the only person that thought instantly of putting up a fight. She was loving towards her daughters and knew to teach them the right lesson: no matter what, they should stay strong and fight for good times. Her hair is really cool, guys. It's funny and crazy and weird and she was somewhat like that, too.
Loathe: However, her quick temper wasn't fit for taking care of her children. And, on top of that, let's face it, she was overconfident: in Chapter 0 she stated that she would beat Shiki were he to come to East Blue. And a young Marine with nothing but a rifle and some unarmed combat skills can't take on Shiki, no matter how you look at it. The "sacrifice" thing is debatable: we can't exactly know what was going on in her mind. Most likely, she was just afraid that Nami and Nojiko wouldn't be able to escape or would have a harsh life even outside of Cocoyashi.
Despite her flaws, I can't give her less than 4/5. The most badass woman that has ever existed in the world of One Piece.
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It's easier to hide when nobody's looking for you. And again, if "better safe than sorry" was part of her reasoning, it could have been stated properly. She didn't mention it at all, and even the line from the doctor about the boats was speculation on his part.
Speculations tend to be true when they happen in-universe. When character A says something like "character B might have realized this", then we viewers are supposed to deduce that it's true by default (unless stated otherwise, which wasn't the case).
And with this in mind, her "better safe than sorry" reasoning becomes heavily implied. If Nami and Nojiko couldn't escape, then the chances of them being found still exist.
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Everyone arguing about how stupid it was for Bellmere to die are forgetting this:
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http://img.batoto.net/comics/2011/11/06/o/read4eb6d7ffb0ee7/One_Piece_v09_157.png
[/hide]Doesn't this page almost entirely rule out all criticism Bellemere is receiving? She actually DID plan for the best scenario in her mind.
Also, what Panda says. Seriously, such critical, dispassionate ripping of characters like Bellemere or Hiruluk, which are the emotional embodyment of what One Piece is all about? We all know which kind of manga this is, right? For analytical, supposedly cool headed writing, you're on the wrong page. One Piece, since day 0, has been all about emotions. Overwrought emotions, to be more precise. And on that front, the Bellemere flashback delivered in spades.
Oh, and the hair-style is obviously based on the skingirl/rudegirl/ska haircut, or "Chelsea" haircut + a mohawk. Not liking it is OK, of course, but it seems like you guys mistook it for another Oda gonzo design idea, when it's actually rooted in reality.
I don't loathe anything from her. She was a strong female character that wasn't sexualized and pushed the idea that girls can be as strong as boys, something that seems to have somewhat diluded in Oda's mind who knows why.
Score: 4,5/5.
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I also agree entirely with what Panda says in regards to the series. Even though I bring up the critiques for the sake of this "hypercritique thread," I don't actually "loathe" characters for double-edged idealism, especially since most of them end up better because of it. I can easily forgive the cornier side of series an enjoy the unbridled emotions of the series and its romanticism (well put, btw).
Oh, and the hair-style is obviously based on the skingirl/rudegirl/ska haircut, or "Chelsea" haircut + a mohawk. Not liking it is OK, of course, but it seems like you guys mistook it for another Oda gonzo design idea, when it's actually rooted in reality.
Thanks for sharing the name. I did see a picture of that style and spent some time trying find what it's called without luck.