The most laughable thing about the whole child soldier concept is that according to the HashiMadara flashback, one of the founding principles of the Leaf was doing away with it.
You know, if they'd actually adhered to that and not sent a 13 year old Obito to the frontlines, things might've looked real different in this series
Also, Itachi was allowed to join the Anbu black ops at age 10, what the fuck
Is there an occupation in the Naruto world apart from shinobi and ramen guy
Yes there is: Sasuke Fangirl.
Wearing weird hats is an occupation? :ninja:
Ha, I think that guy builds a bridge or something.
And now he's unemployed, since he had finished building the bridge :(
World building is more than making a huge backdrop in which the story occurs, and this is something that too many authors forget. The world shouldn't be a static place where the main characters are at the center of everything that goes on in the entire world, it's important to give the impression that the world is a far larger place than we'll ever see in the story, and that many other big stories are going on just out of sight. The world should feel like a living, breathing place. The characters we're seeing in the tournament include all sorts of other people having their own adventures, from different parts of the world, with varying levels of importance (and who may turn out to be relevant to the story later… or may not). This is exactly what world building is about - giving the impression that all sorts of other things are going on, and the world isn't just some static background in which the story takes place.
Excellent post by Whackadoodle 's post from the chapter thradin the chapter thread. Honestly, Naruto and Bleach's world building (especially the latter) utterly pales in comparison. What is the best examples of world building in Naruto? Don't even need to ask about Bleach, since there aren't any. Atleast Kishi somewhat tried.
Wearing weird hats is an occupation? :ninja:
How could you forget the major figure in Naruto´s best arc?
So, is the ninja smiley no longer recognized as the symbol of sarcasm?
I didn't forget Tazuna…
Never knew in the first place that it was a symbol for sarcasm
I have only been reading this forum regulary for a few month and even I know thatthat is the symbol for sarcasm.
But it is fairly interesting that the only known real world occupation aside from ramen shop owner comes from a different country.
The drink and Ninja are not related, or society may see Ninja worse than drink, but that doesn't mean other society should do the same. Is not hard to think they have a bad opinion about minors drinking, but good about being a Ninja(An honorable profession in a Ninja village).
-"Hey Boyamaru,don't you even think of sipping that beer.Now,be a good boy and go fight that horrifying battle where you will run a blade through the heart of a little boy two years younger than you and witness his terrified face,writhing in pain as he breathes his last breath.Then,please be a nice boy and drag your sibling,who will have lost two of his/her limbs to an exlpoding paper tag and will be bleeding to death,across the battlefield as he/she is is literally dying in your arms,which will be driving you insane.Also,if you fall prisoner,there's a slight chance that there may be an odd pedophile among enemy ranks who won't let this chance slip by.
Now off you go!Oh I'm such a model parent!"
-"Fuck it dad I don't want this!"
-"DID I HEAR A SWEAR WORD?!!COME HERE I'LL SPANK YOU!"
Did Israel and Palestine get brought up and the thread didn't devolve into a 40 page argument?
Maybe I've been on Fark's politics tab for too long.
Excellent post by Whackadoodle 's post from the chapter thradin the chapter thread. Honestly, Naruto and Bleach's world building (especially the latter) utterly pales in comparison. What is the best examples of world building in Naruto? Don't even need to ask about Bleach, since there aren't any. Atleast Kishi somewhat tried.
Naruto has decent worldbuilding.
Naruto's world was built like a Potemkin village.
A question about Itachi.
If he was spying for Konoha, how come they weren't told that "Madara" is still alive and kicking? Did Itachi deem it not important enough to tell? Just another example of how unefficient of a spy he was. Kishi just throwed it in there without thinking too much. Itachi was spying for Konoha, yet the village practically knew nothing of the organization.
It's what happens when an Uchiha tries to do good, either nothing comes of it or the situation is made worse.
SPEAKING OF WORLD BUILDING…
Hard to think now that drug dealers/businessmen with shades and suits existed in the Naruto universe.
SUPPOSEDLY the richest guy in the Naruto universe huh? I honestly think this guy wandered into the wrong comic. He seems to fit better in the Mario universe but somehow premature ended up in Naruto…you know, a comic about super power ninjas. shrug
PS: I wonder if I am the only one that kinda wished technology was a thing in the Naruto universe. Not really anything too sci-fi like cyborgs in OP or anything, but kinda Asian-ish pseudo steampunk? I mean technology DID exist with guns and so on. But c'mon, I wish there was a variation to this drab universe. (Heck they even had science experiments and labs in this universe.) There was a lot of potential here, but nope....nope...gotta focus on what a FEW people are doing and not the world itself.
I'm just saying that training a person since childhood, in things like assassination or even in the art of a soldier, is totally different then sending him to battles and wars. The first even if bad it doesn't seem a stupid and a desperate measure, so people don't even think two times about it. The world Government train kids, but they don't send them into battles and wars, at least that we know. The only kid sent was Lucci and it was to a mission that he was certainly prepared and could do, because he was a genius.
The ninjas in the beginning of Naruto were supposed to be the first case, where they would make simple missions that would make them grow in their office. The only kids that would make missions made for "Adults", and in effect go to war, would be the genius, like Itachi. Since the Sasuke rescue arc they being sending kids to inappropriate missions and in the war they used kids, that could as well be in the village. In fact, now that I think well, the only kids in the war were:
The Konoha 11, Gaara, Rock Lee, Tenten and Neji. The rest of the ninjas are depicted as adults. Gaara, Neji and Naruto should be the only exceptions, of kids participating in the war. Gaara is the a Kage, Neji is a Junnin and Naruto is the hero of the village. All the rest shouldn't be there and only are to appeal to the fans. The funny thing is that they are in the war, but don't even have decent screen time.
When Orochimaru attacked Konoha it lost a lot of shinobis…that's why Genins like Konoha rookies were sent to chase Sasuke to begin with(all available jounins and chunins were on missions)...it was also explained that Konoha didn't want to show that it was weakened and risk losing customers in that process..hence they used their full ability to meet the demands.....
@The:
The most laughable thing about the whole child soldier concept is that according to the HashiMadara flashback, one of the founding principles of the Leaf was doing away with it.
You know, if they'd actually adhered to that and not sent a 13 year old Obito to the frontlines, things might've looked real different in this series
Also, Itachi was allowed to join the Anbu black ops at age 10, what the fuck
mostly a special bunch of children(like konoha 11) make to that point of risking life at early age….lots of students fail to become gennin(like what happened during Naruto's batch) and i guess they eventually settle for other jobs...during Hashi's time every children of a shinobi clan was soldier....village system put curb on that...there was even a shop called Uchiha Senbei...Senbei means riceball...a elderly Uchiha couple used to run that..there was a family flowershop where Ino worked part time...Kishi also showed the signs of other shops from outside.he at least shown a Konoha as a flourished village with lots of city like ammenities....there a many long shots of village...one example,though bad scan
!
though one massive plothole to me in early Naruto is how Naruto failed 3 times,yet managed to graduate with Sasuke and Sakura…:happy:
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Here's more:
Why were Senju and Uchiha clans waging a long,intensive,fatigueing war with terrible effects on the demogrphics of both clans and immense casualties,but with LITERALLY NOTHING TO BE WON OR NO BENFIT TO BE HAD,over some stupid squabble their very distant ancestors had at some point in the distant past over an irrelevant title that was likely meaningless even back then,much less at present?
What's more,apparently,other clans joined in on the war…WHY IN THE BLAZING HELL WOULD THEY DO THAT?!
And finally,why is there such a thing as a legal drinking age in a world where parents happily use their children as child soldiers?
when Obito was telling Sasuke truth about Itachi,he clearly told that clans were mercenaries in those days…so they made living out of it(they still do, but now they co-operate)...and because Uchiha was Senju's closest rival,if one nation hired Senju other one hired Uchihas....that way they always confronted with each other and became mortal enemy...
so you have to question why nations fight,not why ninjas...
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.”
When Orochimaru attacked Konoha it lost a lot of shinobis…that's why Genins like Konoha rookies were sent to chase Sasuke to begin with(all available jounins and chunins were on missions)...it was also explained that Konoha didn't want to show that it was weakened and risk losing customers in that process..hence they used their full ability to meet the demands.....
mostly a special bunch of children(like konoha 11) make to that point of risking life at early age....lots of students fail to become gennin(like what happened during Naruto's batch) and i guess they eventually settle for other jobs...during Hashi's time every children of a shinobi clan was soldier....village system put curb on that...there was even a shop called Uchiha Senbei...Senbei means riceball...a elderly Uchiha couple used to run that..there was a family flowershop where Ino worked part time...Kishi also showed the signs of other shops from outside.he at least shown a Konoha as a flourished village with lots of city like ammenities....there a many long shots of village...one example,though bad scan
! http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/8/28-245.0/compressed/naruto_ch245_p06_07.jpg
though one massive plothole to me in early Naruto is how Naruto failed 3 times,yet managed to graduate with Sasuke and Sakura…:happy:
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when Obito was telling Sasuke truth about Itachi,he clearly told that clans were mercenaries in those days...so they made living out of it(they still do, but now they co-operate)...and because Uchiha was Senju's closest rival,if one nation hired Senju other one hired Uchihas....that way they always confronted with each other and became mortal enemy...
so you have to question why nations fight,not why ninjas...
Konoha suffering many casualties during Orochimaru's invasion is pathetic in light of their recent forces. For fuck's sake, we already knew even in Part 1 that Sunagakure's shinobi are pathetically weak. Konoha lost many men when fighting a small force of weak 100 Suna-nins and a couple of hundred Orochimaru's men (who aren't much better)? Really? Considering Konoha's forces now number at the thousands…
But the way, in regards to Naruto's graduation. He'd failed three times, and yes, like you said it's puzzling how he's the same age as Sasuke and Sakura. But there's another issue. How come he wasn't aware of who Neji's group is? They should've been peers the year prior.
Naruto has decent worldbuilding.
In the first sixteen volumes, before as Wagomu mentions it's revealed to be made of cardboard with tree's painted on it.
@STRAWHATCHAN,
it is not pathetic considering it was a surprise attack and ninjas from sand also took part in it initially….
also i don't think they interacted with seniors that much and a ignorant boy like Naruto would be least concerned about anything other than his immediate surroundings...
but we have seen 8-9 years old Naruto and Sasuke sparing with each other...so they have been in the same class from the start...that's why it makes no sense that Naruto managed to fail 3 times(3 years in a row) in grad exam and still graduated with Sasuke..
@Monkey:
Over physical land and claims over it that still exist.
What is the connection you imagined here lol.
It was really just a joke about how they have been fighting back and forth for that same land for what? 2000 years or so? Not really much of a connection, just pointing out that even with how ridiculous the Senju/Uchiha fight is, "similar" things like that happen in the real world.
It was really just a joke about how they have been fighting back and forth for that same land for what? 2000 years or so?
…..whattt???
It's been since 1945 or so 0_0
What the hell history class did you take lol.
@STRAWHATCHAN,
it is not pathetic considering it was a surprise attack and ninjas from sand also took part in it initially….
also i don't think they interacted with seniors that much and a ignorant boy like Naruto would be least concerned about anything other than his immediate surroundings...
but we have seen 8-9 years old Naruto and Sasuke sparing with each other...so they have been in the same class from the start...that's why it makes no sense that Naruto managed to fail 3 times(3 years in a row) in grad exam and still graduated with Sasuke..
That's the problem. If Naruto really did fail to graduate three times, then he and Neji's team should've been peers of the same year, when Neji and co. passed the test and moves on to become Gennin while Naruto stayed behind. Yet this is not the case since Naruto didn't even know who these guys were. Had they been peers, Naruto would've noticed a hardworking guy like Rock Lee and a talented one such as Neji.
well,we know he was always with Sakura and Sasuke….so Kishi simply forgot later what he shown earlier...
That's the problem. If Naruto really did fail to graduate three times, then he and Neji's team should've been peers of the same year, when Neji and co. passed the test and moves on to become Gennin while Naruto stayed behind. Yet this is not the case since Naruto didn't even know who these guys were. Had they been peers, Naruto would've noticed a hardworking guy like Rock Lee and a talented one such as Neji.
I would be ok with minor issues like this if he had not fucked up everything else
When Orochimaru attacked Konoha it lost a lot of shinobis…that's why Genins like Konoha rookies were sent to chase Sasuke to begin with(all available jounins and chunins were on missions)...it was also explained that Konoha didn't want to show that it was weakened and risk losing customers in that process..hence they used their full ability to meet the demands.....
Are you saying that losing some customers and showing weakness is worse than letting the village completely unprotected and sending kids to dangerous missions? That is such a good Management!:ninja: Do you even understand what it means to not have forces in your headquarters? TOTAL STUPIDITY! And what it means to send kids to mission where is almost certain that they would be killed, and only to try to convince a traitor not to go through with the betrayal? TOTAL STUPIDITY!
The Chunnin Exam was a very complex little plot with dozens and dozens of characters and little events.
It was about 11 volumes.
The Sasuke Chase was a linear single event with less than a dozen people doing one thing.
It was about 7 volumes.
Think about that.
What part of it exactly is describable as decent?
… most of it? You know, until we have stupid numbers of ninja standing in regular military formations and such . . .
mostly a special bunch of children(like konoha 11) make to that point of risking life at early age
Or in other words, every single character of note in the entire series.
….lots of students fail to become gennin(like what happened during Naruto's batch) and i guess they eventually settle for other jobs...during Hashi's time every children of a shinobi clan was soldier....village system put curb on that...
So because some kids fail to cut the mustard in class, that makes sending other kids off to die okay? What? Hashiramas utopian child-soldier-free village still endorses utilization of child soldiers, thats all there is to it. "Special kids" or not, voluntary application or not, Konoha still lets kids die; hell, Gaara murdering who knows how many kids was just a part of the chuunin exam.
Considering how godawfully terrible the whole Ninja life is, and all the flashbacks Kishi has given stressing exactly that, it baffles me that kids enroll in the academy in the first place.
I think what saved this concept in Part 1 was that the kids seemed aware of what they had signed up for, and that death was part of the deal. Whereas in part 2, shiniboi throw world-destroying hissy fits because being a fucking mercenary child NINJA SOLDIER involved more emotional stress than they expected when they signed up
there was even a shop called Uchiha Senbei…Senbei means riceball...a elderly Uchiha couple used to run that..there was a family flowershop where Ino worked part time...Kishi also showed the signs of other shops from outside.he at least shown a Konoha as a flourished village with lots of city like ammenities....
I remember absolutely nothing of this. You sure thats not anime filler?
… most of it? You know, until we have stupid numbers of ninja standing in regular military formations and such . . .
No. After the timeskip everything centered around Naruto and his lover, and all attempts at creating something akin to world-building felt superficial and dull.
There has never been anything special about Naruto's world. It's strength were characters and the teamwork/strategy-based fights. Which are essentially gone at this point, there's attempts to show teamwork, but it's all ruined because the powers(sharingan) are overpowered.
@The:
I think what saved this concept in Part 1 was that the kids seemed aware of what they had signed up for, and that death was part of the deal.
I don't think this really makes the situation a whole lot better, since kids generally shouldn't be allowed to make these kinds of decisions.
I think what really saves it is that, as Robby said, for the most part, kid ninjas weren't sent on life-threatening missions.
@The:
I think what saved this concept in Part 1 was that the kids seemed aware of what they had signed up for, and that death was part of the deal. Whereas in part 2, shiniboi throw world-destroying hissy fits because being a fucking mercenary child NINJA SOLDIER involved more emotional stress than they expected when they signed up
Adding that in part 2 was introduced the Will of Fire as "Protecting the younger generation". I never understood that! So, Ninjas assassinate people, steal possessions and Information, go to war, … and all that to protect the younger generation of Ninjas? Wouldn't they be bringing more trouble to the next generation than protection? If at least it was to protect the civilians of the Village or the Country, would be more acceptable, but no, is the younger Ninjas.
People accepting things like that is the reason why Kishimoto made people like Jiraya, Minato and Naruto seem intelligent, while looking for a way to bring peace in a Ninja world. Makes genius like Itachi that kill their entire village with the help of a villain, Tobi, to stop a coup de Etat(Did Kishimoto really made a lot of people believe that to stop a coup de etat you need to kill all the people involved, and their families? Yes, he did!). And make Sarutobi that let a Serial Killer free, just because he was is pupil and after the cloud village try to kidnap a person, he (lets)kills other person and gives to them.
I don't think this really makes the situation a whole lot better, since kids generally shouldn't be allowed to make these kinds of decisions.
I think what really saves it is that, as Robby said, for the most part, kid ninjas weren't sent on life-threatening missions.
They still died pretty gruesomely during their exam though
But I agree with your stance, child soldiers aint great whether its voluntary or not, I just thought part 1 was more consistent in its treatment of it
Why is it such a big problem that Kishimoto made kids serve as Ninjas? Yes the statement of the first Hokage that he built the village to protect children makes it a big plothole in hindsight but from a first setting perspective it is not that unusual for a manga.
I mean no one complains that Oda had Luffy, Ace and Sabo live by themselves or that he wrote that torture scene for the very young Luffy.
I mean no one complains that Oda had Luffy, Ace and Sabo live by themselves or that he wrote that torture scene for the very young Luffy.
Luffy and Ace didn't live by themselves. They were in the care of Dadan. And Sabo was a runaway.
Aside from that, they were isolated incidents. It's not like there's an entire society that promotes child soldiers, or if there is it's treated as a bad thing.
Why is it such a big problem that Kishimoto made kids serve as Ninjas? Yes the statement of the first Hokage that he built the village to protect children makes it a big plothole in hindsight but from a first setting perspective it is not that unusual for a manga.
I mean no one complains that Oda had Luffy, Ace and Sabo live by themselves or that he wrote that torture scene for the very young Luffy.
Probably because Luffy, Sabo and Ace were kids running around like vagrants, and all had absent/dead parents. And are not living as such due to an organization that is supposed to be the good guys.
@Monkey:
…..whattt???
It's been since 1945 or so 0_0
What the hell history class did you take lol.
You know I was just talking about early conflicts during the origin of Islam, and since I'm retarded I was thinking 2k years instead of about 1.4k years. I was just really generalizing but there have been conflicts between the 2 religions since very early on.
I believe the current war started in 1948 or so.
No. After the timeskip everything centered around Naruto and his lover, and all attempts at creating something akin to world-building felt superficial and dull.
I like how you phrase it as if the plot focus determines whether or not there can be world building.
There are little nods here and there, to stuff which isn't strictly relevant. Like the temple, the guardian ninja, etc. And then stuff which is actually relevant, like little bits of wars in the past and how that shaped places and people.
It's not mind-blowingly amazing world building, but it's there and it's decent. And with the exception of Samurai Switzerland, it's not just random asspulls for convenience.
On an unrelated note, the idea that Part II is focused around Naruto and Sasuke is farsical, and the manga would have been so much better had Kishi actually done that.
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You know I was just talking about early conflicts during the origin of Islam, and since I'm retarded I was thinking 2k years instead of about 1.4k years. I was just really generalizing but there have been conflicts between the 2 religions since very early on.
I believe the current war started in 1948 or so.
This is ridiculously irrelevant, but in the seventh century when the Islamic Empire conquered the Levant, that region was under Byzantine control anyway … and as far as my knowledge extends, the Jews (and the Christian) in those regions at that time actually welcomed the Islamic rule over their previous rulers. Not to mention they were actually fairly well treated compared to people of non-Abrahamic faiths. It's not like there's been some bitter embattlement sitting and festering since the birth of Islam; that's just not true.
Yes, it is irrelevant, original intent was just to point out that two clans hating eachother just because isn't extremely farfetched seeing as it happens int eh real world due to religion.
And yet amusingly, your argument is false.
You know I was just talking about early conflicts during the origin of Islam, and since I'm retarded I was thinking 2k years instead of about 1.4k years. I was just really generalizing but there have been conflicts between the 2 religions since very early on.
Except there really hasn't been?
There is no notable antagonism at all between Islam and Judaism historically. All this stuff we see nowadays came about due to the creation of Israel.
Before that I don't think Muslims anywhere let alone the Levant gave a particular shit one way or the other about Jews.
The historical antagonism that doesn't really exist so much anymore is between Jews and Christians (all three main branches of Christianity have tormented Jews at some stage).
And it's really more an ethnic conflict between Arabs and Jews. There is some feelings of comradery toward the Palestinians in other non-Arab Muslim countries, but hell there's feelings like that in Latin America and Northern Ireland too. And those are both Catholic places (well that is to say the Catholics of Northern Ireland are the ones who sympathize with the Palestianians, I imagine the Protestants there sympathize with Israel more).
@The:
They still died pretty gruesomely during their exam though
Can you imagine how hilarious the Chunin exams would be in retrospect if Nardo and company didn't go through the Zabuza thing
"So you kids have been pulling weeds and finding cats for the past year huh - okay now into this death-filled forest where people with actual combat experience will hunt your ass down. HAVE FUN KIDS"
@Monkey:
Except there really hasn't been?
There is no notable antagonism at all between Islam and Judaism historically. All this stuff we see nowadays came about due to the creation of Israel.
Before that I don't think Muslims anywhere let alone the Levant gave a particular shit one way or the other about Jews.
There is that one lovely Quranic verse condoning the killing of all the Jews :p
There is that one lovely Quranic verse condoning the killing of all the Jews :p
Which one is that?
