@Monkey:
I dunno if I'd call essentially being indoctrinated from birth by the same as being shallow.
I'd argue they aren't mutually exclusive
Chopper's forms
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@NER: My post on the last page was half sarcastic but still not far from the truth. Hody just did not have things that many, fortunately not most, are looking for in a villain or a One Piece character in general. He did not have cool and overwhelming powers, a generally appealing personality like Crocodile, or the appearance of Moria or DD in the upcoming arc. Whether the blandness of Hodi´s appearance, especially compared to other villains or even other fishmen, is supposed to correlate with the message Oda wants to convey with Hodi´s character is debatable (i do think it´s the case). Instead of making the audience admire the general appeal of the arc´s villain, Oda chose to do something new, namely to use the villain to incorporate and display one of the major themes in One Piece, namely "Inherited Will" and with that, show for the first time that it can also have negative consequences. Those who were not interested in the themes of One Piece to begin with, obviously had nothing left to life Hodi for, so that´s why so many people hate him as a character.
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While I understand that Hody is supposed to be the enbodiment of the unjustified hatred for humans of the racist denizens of the Fishman District, I still don't think that makes him a good character.
I guess I just don't like those kind of characters whose purpose in the plot is to represent some concept as it makes them feel less like a character and more like a force of nature.
I respect Hody for being unique in that aspect, but he's still not a good character to me.
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While I understand that Hody is supposed to be the enbodiment of the unjustified hatred for humans of the racist denizens of the Fishman District,
That's not what anyone is saying he and his crew are either.
I guess I just don't like those kind of characters whose purpose in the plot is to represent some concept as it makes them feel less like a character and more like a force of nature.
Except people like that actually exist, he's not a walking metaphor. He's a real type of person.
I respect Hody for being unique in that aspect, but he's still not a good character to me.
Just re-read it.
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Question: Does the fact that Zephos is back mean good or bad times for this part of the forum? Or is it just for April's fools, which coincidentally has started in my part of the world already?
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Question: Does the fact that Zephos is back mean good or bad times for this part of the forum? Or is it just for April's fools, which coincidentally has started in my part of the world already?
lol, Zephos is back? This will be fun…
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I liked the idea of Hody, I do feel he is a crappy character, but is MEANT to be one.
He's like those new breed of hate-mongers you see all over the internet.
People who hate not based on their personal experience, but rather, hate bred from nothing but perception fed by others.
A breed of hatred founded on jack shit.Yeah, he's a crappy person, and a crappy villain. I think that's the whole point.
@Monkey:
Except people like that actually exist, he's not a walking metaphor. He's a real type of person.
Yeap. You only need to take two steps into today's internet to find one.
It's prevalent in today's information-heavy era, hate mongers entirely based on what they heard or read, and not what they have seen themselves.In a way, Arlong represents the old-fashion racist by contrast.
His hatred has a solid foundation on his experience, being both the receiving end and dealing end of the hate.
It's basically good-old-fashion feud. We can understand his hate, why he has racist perspective, even though we abhor it.
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To me, part of the issue here seems to be a lack of distinction being made between a character being 'bad' in the sense of simply not liking him – for absolutely any number of reasons -- and a character being 'bad' in the sense of actually being poorly written and executed.
Hopefully Cannon will forgive me for speaking for him, but from his later posts, I rather get the impression that he thinks of Hody as a bad character in the former sense. He recognizes what was being achieved with him, but simply doesn't care for that sort of character as he sees it. That, if it really is how he feels and I'm not misunderstanding, is totally fair, and not something I'd dream of trying to challenge. Even if I didn't necessarily agree, it's simply a matter of opinion and personal taste; everyone has characters they like, or dislike, more than others. Frankly, looking at him purely on the merits of himself, out of the context of the arc he was in -- which I do, admittedly, find to be a silly exercise -- I would probably agree that he simply isn't very interesting at all. I very much doubt he would ever top anyone's favorite character list, or even make it onto one at all.
However, I don't think any of that makes him a bad character in the sense of being poorly written. Oda set out to achieve something in creating him -- to demonstrate the severity, the toxicity, of the environment that created him -- and, in my opinion at least, succeeded in doing so. Nobody is claiming you have to enjoy his character, but I simply cannot understand anyone who would claim that he was a 'bad' character in the context in which he was meant to be taken.
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I liked the idea of Hody, I do feel he is a crappy character, but is MEANT to be one.
He's like those new breed of hate-mongers you see all over the internet.
People who hate not based on their personal experience, but rather, hate bred from nothing but perception fed by others.
A breed of hatred founded on jack shit.Yeah, he's a crappy person, and a crappy villain. I think that's the whole point.
Yeap. You only need to take two steps into today's internet to find one.
It's prevalent in today's information-heavy era, hate mongers entirely based on what they heard or read, and not what they have seen themselves.In a way, Arlong represents the old-fashion racist by contrast.
His hatred has a solid foundation on his experience, being both the receiving end and dealing end of the hate.
It's basically good-old-fashion feud. We can understand his hate, why he has racist perspective, even though we abhor it.Yeah, and a big difference between the two is that the ones based on experience are more logical to an extent, so while it's in some ways harder for a group to prevent (since it'd mean being able to control another group), its actually easier to cure through more experience. Also, I never like calling this type of character crpapy if they're well written and effective for what they are. I mean, you can like a character for what they are as a character, but hate them for who they are as a person if the intent was to be disgusted by and hate the character in question. Obviously intent doesn't always justify things (for example, making a bland, generic main protagonist (who also never gets better since that can change things a bit) is usually pretty bad writing even if they're trying to make them bland and generic for some reason
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Panda:
To me, part of the issue here seems to be a lack of distinction being made between a character being 'bad' in the sense of simply not liking him – for absolutely any number of reasons -- and a character being 'bad' in the sense of actually being poorly written and executed.
Hopefully Cannon will forgive me for speaking for him, but from his later posts, I rather get the impression that he thinks of Hody as a bad character in the former sense. He recognizes what was being achieved with him, but simply doesn't care for that sort of character as he sees it. That, if it really is how he feels and I'm not misunderstanding, is totally fair, and not something I'd dream of trying to challenge. Even if I didn't necessarily agree, it's simply a matter of opinion and personal taste; everyone has characters they like, or dislike, more than others. Frankly, looking at him purely on the merits of himself, out of the context of the arc he was in -- which I do, admittedly, find to be a silly exercise -- I would probably agree that he simply isn't very interesting at all. I very much doubt he would ever top anyone's favorite character list, or even make it onto one at all.
However, I don't think any of that makes him a bad character in the sense of being poorly written. Oda set out to achieve something in creating him -- to demonstrate the severity, the toxicity, of the environment that created him -- and, in my opinion at least, succeeded in doing so. Nobody is claiming you have to enjoy his character, but I simply cannot understand anyone who would claim that he was a 'bad' character in the context in which he was meant to be taken.
You've pretty much nailed it here
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its actually easier to cure through more experience
The precise reason why right wing crazy zealots on the internet are so persistent and block-headed. It is indeed easier to cure experience than indoctrination.
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@Foxy:
lol, Zephos is back? This will be fun…
You missed the Battle of 703?
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@Panda:
To me, part of the issue here seems to be a lack of distinction being made between a character being 'bad' in the sense of simply not liking him – for absolutely any number of reasons -- and a character being 'bad' in the sense of actually being poorly written and executed.
Hopefully Cannon will forgive me for speaking for him, but from his later posts, I rather get the impression that he thinks of Hody as a bad character in the former sense. He recognizes what was being achieved with him, but simply doesn't care for that sort of character as he sees it. That, if it really is how he feels and I'm not misunderstanding, is totally fair, and not something I'd dream of trying to challenge. Even if I didn't necessarily agree, it's simply a matter of opinion and personal taste; everyone has characters they like, or dislike, more than others. Frankly, looking at him purely on the merits of himself, out of the context of the arc he was in -- which I do, admittedly, find to be a silly exercise -- I would probably agree that he simply isn't very interesting at all. I very much doubt he would ever top anyone's favorite character list, or even make it onto one at all.
However, I don't think any of that makes him a bad character in the sense of being poorly written. Oda set out to achieve something in creating him -- to demonstrate the severity, the toxicity, of the environment that created him -- and, in my opinion at least, succeeded in doing so. Nobody is claiming you have to enjoy his character, but I simply cannot understand anyone who would claim that he was a 'bad' character in the context in which he was meant to be taken.
You pretty much got it.
Hody did well at representing how extreme a person can go when exposed to such a hateful enviromnent through his whole life.
But what else did he offer as a character? He was mostly defined by what I stated above. Outside of his established role and background, he was just a generic bastard.
Let's take Zeo, for example. He was also exposed to the same enviromnent Hody was and shared the same beliefs as him, but that didn't stop him from being an amusing character.
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You pretty much got it.
Hody did well at representing how extreme a person can go when exposed to such a hateful enviromnent through his whole life.
But what else did he offer as a character? He was mostly defined by what I stated above. Outside of his established role and background, he was just a generic bastard.
Let's take Zeo, for example. He was also exposed to the same enviromnent Hody was and shared the same beliefs as him, but that didn't stop him from being an amusing character.
Oda couldn't and shouldn't have had each member of the FishKKK be a clown character, someone needed to play straight man.
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I'll never get the people who think every character needs to be super quirky and silly. Yeah, they're amusing, but a quirk alone does not a good character make
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^Case in point: Baby 5.
With Hody, I fully acknowledge that his lack of "threat level" and shallowness of motivation impacted on the FI climax, but at the same time it was one of my favourite Things about him. I can't remember any other villain of this series so sompletely devoted to an ideal that they'd literally throw their lives away for it. Whether their plans would suceed or fail, they at least evidently wished to survive and serve their own personal interests.
Now, Hody may have been some back-alley thug, but that he managed to get so far based purely off his spiteful, all-consuming ideology, is impressive to me. And with the state the arcs conclusion left him in, he pretty much DID kill himself.
He was so toxic that Oda made it impossible to reintroduce him into the series at a later stage, which in a series where Enel, Lucci and Crocodile are running around doing whatever is pretty huge, when you think about it. -
Quick question about the Baratie arc….
Nami didn't meet/see Mihawk or Krieg, right?
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Quick question about the Baratie arc….
Nami didn't meet/see Mihawk or Krieg, right?
Right she fled before Hawky arrived
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A little slow on this, but the issue I always had with Hody was the lack of success he was allowed. Great antagonists usually get an edge early on that makes you fear for the protagonist as a reader. Enel, for example, totally destroyed Zoro, Sanji, Wiper, and others. Moriah stole the shadows of all the strongest crew members, etc. Hody, on the other hand, got curbstomped by Zoro and then managed to pick them up after they drowned. That was more of a reminder of the fear of water than it was the fear of an insane fishman, who comically locked them up in a cage and assumed they'd die.
Hody never seemed like a threat to the crew until he was gifted with a fight in the deep sea along with a giant ship he could use as a nuke, which was already up to the climax of the arc. And even then, the only thing that made me think that Luffy was in any sort of trouble was the giant ship. He established himself as a threat to the kingdom, but not so much as a threat to the Straw Hats.
My issues with Hody are with him as an antagonist, rather than with him as a character. As far as being a character goes, he was just fine.
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A little slow on this, but the issue I always had with Hody was the lack of success he was allowed. Great antagonists usually get an edge early on that makes you fear for the protagonist as a reader. Enel, for example, totally destroyed Zoro, Sanji, Wiper, and others. Moriah stole the shadows of all the strongest crew members, etc. Hody, on the other hand, got curbstomped by Zoro and then managed to pick them up after they drowned. That was more of a reminder of the fear of water than it was the fear of an insane fishman, who comically locked them up in a cage and assumed they'd die.
Hody never seemed like a threat to the crew until he was gifted with a fight in the deep sea along with a giant ship he could use as a nuke, which was already up to the climax of the arc. And even then, the only thing that made me think that Luffy was in any sort of trouble was the giant ship. He established himself as a threat to the kingdom, but not so much as a threat to the Straw Hats.
My issues with Hody are with him as an antagonist, rather than with him as a character. As far as being a character goes, he was just fine.
I agree with your analysis. After the three SHs ended in a cage hanging in a room that saw slowly filling with water … well lets just say I saw art at DA poking fun at that Hody seemed more like a James Bond villain. Meaning he had a lot of build-up as the baddie but was ineffective and had stupid plan to off the good guys in a slow way that allowed them time to escape.
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I LIKED that Zoro defeated Hody early, nice change of pace.
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A little slow on this, but the issue I always had with Hody was the lack of success he was allowed. Great antagonists usually get an edge early on that makes you fear for the protagonist as a reader. Enel, for example, totally destroyed Zoro, Sanji, Wiper, and others. Moriah stole the shadows of all the strongest crew members, etc. Hody, on the other hand, got curbstomped by Zoro and then managed to pick them up after they drowned. That was more of a reminder of the fear of water than it was the fear of an insane fishman, who comically locked them up in a cage and assumed they'd die.
Hody never seemed like a threat to the crew until he was gifted with a fight in the deep sea along with a giant ship he could use as a nuke, which was already up to the climax of the arc. And even then, the only thing that made me think that Luffy was in any sort of trouble was the giant ship. He established himself as a threat to the kingdom, but not so much as a threat to the Straw Hats.
My issues with Hody are with him as an antagonist, rather than with him as a character. As far as being a character goes, he was just fine.
I'm the opposite, I really like that he was essentially curb-stomped by Luffy (and really pissed that the anime made it like he gave Luffy more trouble than he should have). It was a nice, refreshing change of pace to see such a one-sided victory for the good guys in a series while still retaining that entertainment value, it reintroduces the "how strong are these guys" dynamic that we had in the beginning of the series, acted as a great victory lap for the powered up crew. Most importantly, I really like the message behind that ass-whooping. That Hody's hatred was worth absolutely jack shit. For all his grand ideals and hatred and pretensions of being the superior race, he couldn't even go the distance against someone with real ideals and strength and convictions (his defeat was nothing more than an afterthought as Luffy was more interested in destroying the arc, really gives you the impression he was a nobody who was swatted away, again the anime really fucked this up) let alone give any sort of challenge. In the end, he was just a pathetic villain who was never really a threat which was the whole point.
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A little slow on this, but the issue I always had with Hody was the lack of success he was allowed. Great antagonists usually get an edge early on that makes you fear for the protagonist as a reader. Enel, for example, totally destroyed Zoro, Sanji, Wiper, and others. Moriah stole the shadows of all the strongest crew members, etc. Hody, on the other hand, got curbstomped by Zoro and then managed to pick them up after they drowned. That was more of a reminder of the fear of water than it was the fear of an insane fishman, who comically locked them up in a cage and assumed they'd die.
Hody never seemed like a threat to the crew until he was gifted with a fight in the deep sea along with a giant ship he could use as a nuke, which was already up to the climax of the arc. And even then, the only thing that made me think that Luffy was in any sort of trouble was the giant ship. He established himself as a threat to the kingdom, but not so much as a threat to the Straw Hats.
My issues with Hody are with him as an antagonist, rather than with him as a character. As far as being a character goes, he was just fine.
Bingo. That's why hody was never a great villain. He was a joke from the get go. The strawhats just recently trained for 2 years and made the entire crew into fodder. I feel that's why FI wasn't as good as the other arc's, there wasn't a threat. If anything it was a great measurement of how overpowered they are compared to east blue. I mean none of them fought seriously, it was like beating a bunch of children >_>; lol
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Though I agree with what you guys said about the villains not being as threatening, I still really, really liked the way Oda handled the fights.
Of course they won them easily. They should have. No matter who it was, it was their first villain after the time skip, so we needed showing of how good the SHs had become.
Yet, even though we knew they were going to be stomped, Oda did none less than three things which made me still like them as villains in terms of threat level:(1. The ship which posed a lot of danger to the island. Of course it's not an enemy in itself but it gave Luffy a limited time to beat Hody. Plus it added a threat to the arc in general, and the element of the Sea Kings and Shirahoshi coming to the rescue after he beat it half down.
(2. The pills which strengthened them, so that their power level actually became close to a threat (as such Luffy did need a blood transfusion, he was hurt up to that point. cuz of the ship as well)
(3. The racism theme in the arc which also made it so that Luffy could not just barge in and kick his ass like he did with Arlong. They had to be more strategic about it.I know these points are all not really related to the original strength and threat-level of the actual enemies, but they were important factors into giving them a good threat level, even though they still got beaten pretty hard. We got to see some nifty stuff out of the crew while beating the enemies down. Yet Oda still manage to put these factors in so that the arc remained exciting enough for the likes of me. Even just after a time-skip he manages to make nobody too OP or too degraded. Maybe Hody a little bit but come on, Timeksip :ninja:
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Bingo. That's why hody was never a great villain. He was a joke from the get go. The strawhats just recently trained for 2 years and made the entire crew into fodder. I feel that's why FI wasn't as good as the other arc's, there wasn't a threat. If anything it was a great measurement of how overpowered they are compared to east blue. I mean none of them fought seriously, it was like beating a bunch of children >_>; lol
That's why Oda wrote the ship thing into it.
It ended up being more like a fight against an act of racist terrorism. -
@Monkey:
I LIKED that Zoro defeated Hody early, nice change of pace.
I liked it when it happened. But I was disappointed that he never really got a chance to establish himself as a serious threat after that.
@Thousand:
I'm the opposite, I really like that he was essentially curb-stomped by Luffy (and really pissed that the anime made it like he gave Luffy more trouble than he should have). It was a nice, refreshing change of pace to see such a one-sided victory for the good guys in a series while still retaining that entertainment value, it reintroduces the "how strong are these guys" dynamic that we had in the beginning of the series, acted as a great victory lap for the powered up crew. Most importantly, I really like the message behind that ass-whooping. That Hody's hatred was worth absolutely jack shit. For all his grand ideals and hatred and pretensions of being the superior race, he couldn't even go the distance against someone with real ideals and strength and convictions (his defeat was nothing more than an afterthought as Luffy was more interested in destroying the arc, really gives you the impression he was a nobody who was swatted away, again the anime really fucked this up) let alone give any sort of challenge. In the end, he was just a pathetic villain who was never really a threat which was the whole point.
The villain doesn't have be overly strong to be a threat. Look at Caesar. He couldn't really compare to Luffy at all in strength, but he still had his moments which allowed him to be viewed as a serious threat.
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I think that Hody was written that way because the true threat was collective racism and hatred.
If Hody had died without Luffy setting things back to zero, there would have just been a new Hody.
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@Thousand:
I'm the opposite, I really like that he was essentially curb-stomped by Luffy (and really pissed that the anime made it like he gave Luffy more trouble than he should have). It was a nice, refreshing change of pace to see such a one-sided victory for the good guys in a series while still retaining that entertainment value, it reintroduces the "how strong are these guys" dynamic that we had in the beginning of the series, acted as a great victory lap for the powered up crew. Most importantly, I really like the message behind that ass-whooping. That Hody's hatred was worth absolutely jack shit. For all his grand ideals and hatred and pretensions of being the superior race, he couldn't even go the distance against someone with real ideals and strength and convictions (his defeat was nothing more than an afterthought as Luffy was more interested in destroying the arc, really gives you the impression he was a nobody who was swatted away, again the anime really fucked this up) let alone give any sort of challenge. In the end, he was just a pathetic villain who was never really a threat which was the whole point.
That depends on how you look at the definition of villain and who/what the threat was aimed at. Towards the Strawhats… it's a bit of mixed bag there. In battle, no they were not really a true threat, more of a strong nuisance that took time to shoot down. However their ideals did make things difficult for the Strawhats, I.E. getting blood transfusions (for both Luffy & Sanji). Hammond said it was illegal to give bllod transfusions to humans due to the fact their hero Fisher, died when he was refused a blood transfusion (truth he refused it since it was human blood). That is what gets me, I can see how a group of people would look down on it, but that is different than making it against the law. Why would the KING whose wife wanted to live topside, to put aside the hate of humans, outlaw it? We saw in some flashbacks that there were blood transfusions, as the citizens that did so were attacked by Hody's boys who were wearing masks. So I think King Neptune outlawed it so that would cut down on the citizens being targeted by the masked figures. In that way Hody's ideas was dangerous - to the goal of relocating since it interferes with dealing with humans.
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I think that Hody was written that way because the true threat was collective racism and hatred.
If Hody had died without Luffy setting things back to zero, there would have just been a new Hody.
I was about to write this
The New Fishman Pirates were not threatening because they were not the real antagonist of the arc, they were just symbolic for the hatred which was Luffy´s enemy. The conclusion of the conflict, which normally happens when the main villain of the arc is beaten, was purposely delayed to the moment Jinbe gives Luffy his blood which in turn was symbolic of the hatred and racism disappearing, even if it happens slowly. Like i said on the last page, Oda tried something new with this arc and some people did not like that i guess.
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Throughout the whole arc I felt pity for Hody Jones. Pity because he couldn't compete with the Straw Hats. Pity because he was lacking the intellect to make up for his weakness. Pity because he had no real reason to justify his behavior, he was simply a victim of his environment. And that's the point for me, he was more of a victim than a villain. Maybe it's just me, but pity isn't one of the feelings I want to have in regards to the main antagonist.
He was still a great character tho and the theme of Fishman Island was one of the best, simply because the issue is so terrifyingly real.
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I was about to write this
The New Fishman Pirates were not threatening because they were not the real antagonist of the arc, they were just symbolic for the hatred which was Luffy´s enemy. The conclusion of the conflict, which normally happens when the main villain of the arc is beaten, was purposely delayed to the moment Jinbe gives Luffy his blood which in turn was symbolic of the hatred and racism disappearing, even if it happens slowly. Like i said on the last page, Oda tried something new with this arc and some people did not like that i guess.
The question is why people don't like Hody, though. This wasn't meant to be about the arc and conflict as a whole.
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The question is why people don't like Hody, though. This wasn't meant to be about the arc and conflict as a whole.
Which was explained. In order to try something new and use the villain to incorparate and emphasize a major theme of OP, Oda sacrificed other, conventional trademarks of a Shounen villain which are 1) appealing looks, 2) overwhelming power, 3) "badass" personality.
I am not even saying that Hodi should be liked because of his symbolic value, that depends on everyone´s preferences. -
The question is why people don't like Hody, though. This wasn't meant to be about the arc and conflict as a whole.
Considering what Hody represents, it's hard to like him.
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Considering what Hody represents, it's hard to like him.
In that sense, yes.
But in the sense with how much he contributed to the story as a villain, i found him really likable / likeable (whats the correct spelling?) -
Considering what Hody represents, it's hard to like him.
Well, Crocodile was about to kill 1 million people but he still is one of the most liked villains in OP. There is a difference in liking a character in the sense of identifying with him and liking in the sense of appreciating his character in the story.
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Which was explained. In order to try something new and use the villain to incorparate and emphasize a major theme of OP, Oda sacrificed other, conventional trademarks of a Shounen villain which are 1) appealing looks, 2) overwhelming power, 3) "badass" personality.
I am not even saying that Hodi should be liked because of his symbolic value, that depends on everyone´s preferences.I could have liked him in his role as a primary antagonist without any of those things if it was written differently. Granted 2 would have made it a lot easier to write, but still not absolutely needed. There are a lot of various methods in which a character can pose a threat.
Look, I respect what Oda attempted to do with Fishman Island. I really do. But at the end of the day, did you really think it was a great arc? Oda sacrificed things he's good at for things he's not very good at.
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In that sense, yes.
But in the sense with how much he contributed to the story as a villain, i found him really likable / likeable (whats the correct spelling?)Both spellings are correct.
I accept Jesus Burgess as my Lord and Savior
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Look, I respect what Oda attempted to do with Fishman Island. I really do. But at the end of the day, did you really think it was a great arc? Oda sacrificed things he's good at for things he's not very good at.
I seem to be one of the rare few that did really like the arc.
maybe it could have been better (dont really know how though. honestly) but at the end of the day, i can look back on it and say i really liked it. especially several aspects of it.@Medical:
Both spellings are correct.
Really? does it depend on the context or anything? or does it have to do with british or american english?
EDIT: going to sleep. will read replies tomorrow.
tomorrow new chapter too <3 -
I could have liked him in his role as a primary antagonist without any of those things if it was written differently. Granted 2 would have made it a lot easier to write, but still not absolutely needed. There are a lot of various methods in which a character can pose a threat.
Look, I respect what Oda attempted to do with Fishman Island. I really do. But at the end of the day, did you really think it was a great arc? Oda sacrificed things he's good at for things he's not very good at.
It definitely was not a great arc but personally, i don´t think it is as bad as people make it out to be. I can understand your issue with Hodi since he is also not my favorite villain, to say the least, but i do think an arc heavy on one of the major themes was necessary after Thriller Bark, Impel Down and Marineford where the plot progression had more focus than the underlying theme. Could he have done it better? Surely, the pacing was a bit off, the villains colorless, the SHs, especially Sanji were portrayed in a weird way sometimes but i do think people exaggerate when they bash FI arc, just my opinion.
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I seem to be one of the rare few that did really like the arc.
maybe it could have been better (dont really know how though. honestly) but at the end of the day, i can look back on it and say i really liked it. especially several aspects of it.Listen children, like Otohime says, if you want to end racial discrimination you simply need to abolish your own history! There were lots of little things like that which annoyed me, but that one was compounded for me by the existence of Robin who never said a peep about it. Oda was simply writing outside of his comfort zone, and missed a few times.
It definitely was not a great arc but personally, i don´t think it is as bad as people make it out to be. I can understand your issue with Hodi since he is also not my favorite villain, to say the least, but i do think an arc heavy on one of the major themes was necessary after Thriller Bark, Impel Down and Marineford where the plot progression had more focus than the underlying theme. Could he have done it better? Surely, the pacing was a bit off, the villains colorless, the SHs, especially Sanji were portrayed in a weird way sometimes but i do think people exaggerate when they bash FI arc, just my opinion.
It could have been just a slightly below average arc that tried new things and didn't do them all that well (especially in comparison to how well the story does other things). But it had so much hype going in that below average was deemed totally unacceptable before it even started.
I thought certain aspects were very poetic and well done, but the package as a whole didn't stack up for me.
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Really? does it depend on the context or anything? or does it have to do with british or american english?
Likable is mainly used in the U.S. and likeable is used more in Canada and Europe, but both forms have been used in all English-speaking regions.
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@Thousand:
I'm the opposite, I really like that he was essentially curb-stomped by Luffy (and really pissed that the anime made it like he gave Luffy more trouble than he should have). It was a nice, refreshing change of pace to see such a one-sided victory for the good guys in a series while still retaining that entertainment value, it reintroduces the "how strong are these guys" dynamic that we had in the beginning of the series, acted as a great victory lap for the powered up crew. Most importantly, I really like the message behind that ass-whooping. That Hody's hatred was worth absolutely jack shit. For all his grand ideals and hatred and pretensions of being the superior race, he couldn't even go the distance against someone with real ideals and strength and convictions (his defeat was nothing more than an afterthought as Luffy was more interested in destroying the arc, really gives you the impression he was a nobody who was swatted away, again the anime really fucked this up) let alone give any sort of challenge. In the end, he was just a pathetic villain who was never really a threat which was the whole point.
I gotta disagree, mostly because it actually gives Luffy's injury at the end of the arc meaning if Hody is enough of a threat to injure him. I recognize that the blood transfusion is symbolic (though my issue with that is the reason why blood transfusions are forbidden were never explained and its significance is undercut because the plot point was introduced with a gag by Sanji), but it makes it less stupid that Luffy is going to die from this wound if Hody is a threat.
And to be fair, each pill makes you twice as strong, and Hody did take a bunch to recover from the red-hawk. It's possible that the pills would have given him the ability to withstand hits he wasn't able to earlier (like the red-hawk).
The villain doesn't have be overly strong to be a threat. Look at Caesar. He couldn't really compare to Luffy at all in strength, but he still had his moments which allowed him to be viewed as a serious threat.
Pretty much this. It's not just that Hody's threat seemed empty because Luffy and co. could easily take them down. Hody never presented a threat because there was no emotional connection as him as a threat. To me at least, there's very little to no emotional connection to the safety of the Fishman Island residents, or any mourning for what would happen if they lost their kingdom and had to move away. Personally didn't even care when Neptune or the Princes were captured because we barely knew them (but that's another issue). Oda even tried artifically creating fake drama by making Hody "threaten" the kraken's brothers and say he's going to be the "pirate king", which would make Luffy mad given his past, but that means squat compared to the arc's story as a whole.
Heck, instead of doing a stupid okama gag, just have one friendly fishman give Sanji blood, and then introduce Hody and co. by having them severely injure that fishman. Boom. Emotional connection secured.
I think a large part of my issues with the arc have to do with "last minute" reveals. The intentions and motivations for the NFPs are nonexistent throughout the arc. So they for the most part just come across as another pirate group trying to take over the kingdom that's spouting of humans are evil propaganda. If the story just stuck with them being KKK members/terrorists instead of trying to become a "new nation of evil fishmen" and showed that at the beginning, the story might have been much better off. But I can understand the grandiose 100,000 fodder allowed the crew to show off, which a lot of people did want to see, myself included.
Originally Posted by Nightwing
Stay focused, cause right now you have a decision to make. Are you a man perpetually looking back at what he’s lost, or a man looking forward, to what he might become?
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I seem to be one of the rare few that did really like the arc.
Don't worry, you're not. Sometimes I've felt like I'm the only one rushing to the arc's defense. It seems that the majority of people "get" what Oda achieved with the arc (and the key word here is 'achieved' - just because Oda dared to be different and defied people's expectations doesn't mean he "failed") but they just don't like it. Which is fair. I mean, it comes down to personal preference in the end.
And my opinion is that absolutely, yes, this arc is great. There are still people who complain about having no emotional connection to Hodi, but that was always the point. He's an ugly villain, inside and out. Just an empty racist. He wasn't attractive, and you can't even love to hate him. He's just hateful evil. I've barely seen any fan art or figures of Hodi (compared to, like, Crocodile obviously), and that just makes me appreciate his difference even more.
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Don't worry, you're not. Sometimes I've felt like I'm the only one rushing to the arc's defense. It seems that the majority of people "get" what Oda achieved with the arc (and the key word here is 'achieved' - just because Oda dared to be different and defied people's expectations doesn't mean he "failed") but they just don't like it. Which is fair. I mean, it comes down to personal preference in the end.
And my opinion is that absolutely, yes, this arc is great. There are still people who complain about having no emotional connection to Hodi, but that was always the point. He's an ugly villain, inside and out. Just an empty racist. He wasn't attractive, and you can't even love to hate him. He's just hateful evil. I've barely seen any fan art or figures of Hodi (compared to, like, Crocodile obviously), and that just makes me appreciate his difference even more.
I agree with what you say, esp the bold parts. I don't 'like' Hody as some character but as a villain … well he was great since he was realistic! There is no redeeming qualities to him, as you said, he was just about hatred the 'empty racist'. This was a realistic quality, but some (not all, but some) didn't like that because they read OP to 'escape reality' and don't like it to be 'too real in the nitty gritty sort of way'. And that was what Hody was about the real force of racism. Its ugly and has power in the hate of fellow racists and fear it invokes in the citizens
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The villain doesn't have be overly strong to be a threat. Look at Caesar. He couldn't really compare to Luffy at all in strength, but he still had his moments which allowed him to be viewed as a serious threat.
But he wasn't supposed to be a threat. At all. It would have undermined the point that he was a nothing.
I gotta disagree, mostly because it actually gives Luffy's injury at the end of the arc meaning if Hody is enough of a threat to injure him. I recognize that the blood transfusion is symbolic (though my issue with that is the reason why blood transfusions are forbidden were never explained and its significance is undercut because the plot point was introduced with a gag by Sanji), but it makes it less stupid that Luffy is going to die from this wound if Hody is a threat.
And to be fair, each pill makes you twice as strong, and Hody did take a bunch to recover from the red-hawk. It's possible that the pills would have given him the ability to withstand hits he wasn't able to earlier (like the red-hawk).
He got in a lucky hit, Luffy swatted him away immediately after.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I personally love the FI arc though I agree it was one of Oda's weaker arcs (still better than 90% of what's out there). Really the main issues I have with the arc is an issue of pacing especially in the flashback. The arc should have been longer to flesh out more the emotional connection between the residents and the straw hat crew, more of a chance to explore the world. As it is, we'll probably be getting more of that at the end of the series. With that said, it had a great, emotional message that hit it on the head and had the fucking SH crew fight a WAR single handed and win. Those group shots of the crew just nonchalantly discussing on who fights who or after they won are some of the coolest stuff Oda's ever drawn.
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@Thousand:
I personally love the FI arc though I agree it was one of Oda's weaker arcs (still better than 90% of what's out there). Really the main issues I have with the arc is an issue of pacing especially in the flashback. The arc should have been longer to flesh out more the emotional connection between the residents and the straw hat crew, more of a chance to explore the world. As it is, we'll probably be getting more of that at the end of the series. With that said, it had a great, emotional message that hit it on the head and had the fucking SH crew fight a WAR single handed and win. Those group shots of the crew just nonchalantly discussing on who fights who or after they won are some of the coolest stuff Oda's ever drawn.
This is also one thing i've always had in my mind.
I knew the racism theme wasnt resolved, but Luffy just made a great step towards it in this arc. Which is what I liked. -
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How many days is it until Big Mom's Tea Party? Is it one day?
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Didn't say in FI that the Tea Party was in 4 days? I thinks someone said only two days have passed. IF so then only 2 more days
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16 chars of 3 days.
One day have passed since fishman island.
