Chapter 687: Wild animal
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What kind of a marine base does G5 have? More like a joke if they cant fire cannons against Caribous ship. Instead they are firing with their guns…
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I HATE this post. And all you people who kiss its author's ass.
Seriously, you should just take it easy and drop the hate from this thread.
That said, you should try kissing Robby's ass too … it's rather pleasant when you kiss the ass of an author of a post that makes sense instead of irrationally hating on things.
The very title of the thread explains the nature of Zoro and how his character is being developed. But then again when Sanji isn't doing anything I guess people need something to bitch about under the flag of "sexism."
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So if Monet was a guy, and Zoro treated him the same way, it would be totally acceptable?
Yes. Thus, Zoro is not sexist.
I HATE this post. And all you people who kiss its author's ass.
Reason: 1. It's all correct, and i agree with the POV. 2. It's kind of boring, really. The only insightful analogy is that Zoro is pulling a Mihawk, completely outclassing his opponent. 3. I'm jelly. 4. I'm pissed off at this chapter for no reasonable explanation.
If anything, you should be glad at the cover page. It's so horrible that it's silly.
…But this chapter is still sub-par. There was a lack of suspense throughout, and a lot of moments in here are too trite, especially Tashigi's near loss. That Oda is still bringing it in is what bothers me. And calling it shonen as an excuse is no argument. She needs character development, dammit. Zoro is fine; Tashigi, no.
On the other hand, the finishing strikes were done beautifully (albeit disappointed with a lack of flames). Burn the snow-witch, I say! Even Law's crew doesn't deserve you, Monet. (But that doesn't mean I don't want you to return. You have potential...)
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Seriously, you should just take it easy and drop the hate from this thread.
That said, you should try kissing Robby's ass too … it's rather pleasant when you kiss the ass of an author of a post that makes sense instead of irrationally hating on things.
The very title of the thread explains the nature of Zoro and how his character is being developed. But then again when Sanji isn't doing anything I guess people need something to bitch about under the flag of "sexism."
No. I refuse completely. Appraising another author for his work is what I have done in the past, and it hasn't brought me anything but misery and anxiety. My posting quality has dropped, perhaps because of lack of practice, but that lack of practice is because of a lack of feedback. I don't see a reason to be a kind critic.
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No. I refuse completely. Appraising another author for his work is what I have done in the past, and it hasn't brought me anything but misery and anxiety. My posting quality has dropped, perhaps because of lack of practice, but that lack of practice is because of a lack of feedback. I don't see a reason to be a kind critic.
I outright say if I don't like someone, but I always have liked your posts. So there's some feedback. I'm too busy to look for specific examples but I do specifically look for your posts when they pop in chapter threads, along with a decent number of people.
APForums can be kind of a cold machine when it comes to feedback so I figured I'd toss some your way. I laugh at a hell of a lot of things in the Bleachruto thread and never really say so.
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I want at least one strong pair of boobs,Oda,why u so sexist ?
But seriously,it will be nice change of pace.One interesting woman that is not entirely supporting character and can fight (besides silly fanservice fights).
Pre-Water 7 Robin is the closest we got.
This is little flaw for me,but it will be refreshing at least if get to see something like that in the manga. -
This post is deleted!
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I want at least one strong pair of boobs,Oda,why u so sexist ?
But seriously,it will be nice change of pace.One interesting woman that is not entirely supporting character and can fight (besides silly fanservice fights).
Pre-Water 7 Robin is the closest we got.
This is little flaw for me,but it will be refreshing at least if get to see something like that in the manga.Dude did you forget about Big mom? or you think that ugly women don't have boobs?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Good old days...When I used to enjoy reading the comments in here,
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Ok here is my intepratation of this chapter.
Zoro just defended while Nami, Chopper and Robin were in the room right? This was to protect them until they were able to get out. Now someone might say, why didn't he just make the super fast slash that he did now and be done with it? The answer is that he didn't know the extend of Monet's powers. She is a logia after all, and if he started focusing on her, she could hurt the others with projectile attacks that Zoro couldn't prevent if he was far from Nami and co. In the end he played it safe, which was the smartest decision. Pay close attention to Nami and co, so that they can get out safely and then deal with Monet. So right when Nami and co got out, and Zoro was ready to deal with Monet, there comes Tashigi. She wanted a chance with Monet, so Zoro gave it to her because why not? When she was defeated, Zoro intefered and defeated Monet in one hit. Then Monet finally got up, which Zoro didn't expect, and tried to strike back, but Tashigi left her unconcious before Zoro could, and that was the end. So all that Zoro did, is what he always have been, even moreso after training with Mihawk. He goes easy on way weaker opponenets, regardless of gender. Don't ask why Zoro didn't immediately OHKO her, because i explained this already. He was waitiing for the others to get out, so he can be sure they won't get hurt, pretty much like it happened with Usopp and the Nyabin Brothers.
Also about the point that CCC made about Oda humiliating Monet after all the hype. I kind of agree with this, but i also do not to an extend. Let's see the scenario by Monets standpoint. She wanted to prevent as much people as going after the kids, this was her job. And if she didn't succeed she could be killed by Dofla as we all know. So she finds Zoro as an opponent, and at the beggining she realizes that he is stronger than her, so she is somewhat careful. But after a bit, with Zoro staying all passive and stuff, she starts to believe that she can win, which is a logical assumption to make. What's more is that when Tashigi comes in, she comments that Zoro cannot harm ladies, making Monet feel even more carefree. And then she loses, because Zoro is much much stronger, and in another level. This seems logical to me so far. The only part that i don't agree with is how easily Monet got immobilized by Zoro's look. As we all know this is the NW, and Monet should have seen plenty of ruthless frightening badass guys 'till now, yet she shits her pants immediately when seeing Zoro? It doesn't make sense for Zoro to be that strong, so much stronger than the level of pirates that Monet used to see. However this can be fixed if Zoro used CoC, or some kind of Haki in general, which would be logical and ok. So we have to wait to learn what was that Zoro did, before we judge this action of Oda.
But this is just my interpretation, which might be biased, as i love OP, and i always try to pick the explanation that fits me the best, when there are such controversial chapters as this one.
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I outright say if I don't like someone, but I always have liked your posts. So there's some feedback. I'm too busy to look for specific examples but I do specifically look for your posts when they pop in chapter threads, along with a decent number of people.
APForums can be kind of a cold machine when it comes to feedback so I figured I'd toss some your way. I laugh at a hell of a lot of things in the Bleachruto thread and never really say so.
Thank you for your kind words, even if we didn't always see eye-to-eye.
I was going to complain about the biased forum rules (can't bash another member, but coddling another is fine? That's irrational). However, starting a hate tirade will just create hostility, and hostility is worse than having a fan bandwagon. On the otherhand, forcing a completely praise-less, critic-less forum would create a really boring "business board room" environment.
I don't know. Aside from Karasugi posing victoriously in a bra and armored stilletos over Coribou who was heartlessly abandoned by Caribou, the chapter struck a bad chord with me. Technically, the chapter was excellent. It resolved the conflict in Zoro's character created last chapter in a totally masculine style. The art regarding the action seems to be steadily improving, rather than declining, which I appreciate. Tashigi's pouty face was strikingly Moe. Perhaps it's the focus of only one fight in the chapter, one in which Zoro expressed a disgusting amount of smugness for acting impulsively and succeeding, without actual concern for Tashigi's dignity. I mean he doesn't even have a shred of kindness. It pisses me off to the point where I'm obsessed about him.
And what was up with Luffy? He got caught by Monet, almost frozen by her, and got himself stuck during his fight with her. I have no doubt that his Haki is on par or greater than Zoro's, but he keeps goofing up too much. Well, he still has his flaws I guess, since he's otherwise completely overpowered for his experience level.
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[http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/687/8
s](http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/687/8)o uh somebody wanna explain zoro's disproportionate ears on the bottom *right
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[http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/687/8
s](http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/687/8)o uh somebody wanna explain zoro's disproportionate ears on the bottom left
isn't that zoro hand pointing towards tashigi or at least thats what it looks like to me.
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I'll say Oda didn't hype Monet. That was the people that instantly latched onto her that were going gaga over her. From the second Usopp saw her people seemed to be so enthused to see a pretty woman (this one has wings!). Whether that was because they liked her design, or her whatever, people have been over hyping her. She has silly glasses and reads the newspaper! They find out she's working for Doflamingo, pile on the extra hype and theories. Find out she's a snow Logia, holy balls, next Nakama! Honestly I feel like people brought on their own disappointment.
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Well, it’s rough after this chapter, but next time Zoro fights, we’ll learn that he’s actually been trained in “Hawkie.”
It’s not the same thing.
Wait, Hawkie… hockey?
NHL lockout... I somewhat depressed myself. =(
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Easily best damn panel or page in the last 100+ chapters is Tashigi's monologue regarding Zoro and the Strawhats as Zoro's back is turned walking away. As if he didn't look tight as hell destroying a logia user but her amazement at his power. SICK.
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…..?
igetowned is clearly being sarcastic.
He even made playful inconsistency in the same post, clarifying the intent.
Or is everyone who is mistakengly replying to the post just playing along, and I'm not seeing it? :wassat: -
My eyes aren't hazy with blood rage like I'm sure half this forum is right now, so I rather liked this chapter.
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Ok, the cover story caught me way off guard. Ahahaha. I wasn't sure last week's cover was necessary, but with this continuation it makes a lot more sense. Caribou is such a dick. I'm pleasantly surprised that G5 is as strong as it is. You know Caribou would love to bury them all alive if he could.
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I'm just going to start out with the elephant in the room that is sexism. I know it'll be a huge point of contention for people all week. There are two (or three) people to blame for this being an issue, and none of them are Zoro. The first person is Oda. I thought the characters actions and dialog were all fitting, so I have no issues there. Oda's the one who put Zoro against a woman who was far weaker than him, and then tossed Tashigi on top with all of her awful assumptions of Zoro. Had he crafted a different situation, then all of this would have disappeared. But the truth is that he had his reasons. The massively inescapable reason for Oda going this route is…
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Zoro's backstory. It's high time to advance the underlying issues behind Zoro's personal story beyond just his strength, especially as it relates to Tashigi, because it hasn't been addressed since East Blue. We have his one chapter flashback, and his confrontation with Tashigi back in Loguetown. That's about it. So color me actually happy to see the development of it get started back up again. This is a series long developmental story rooted in Kuina's death, and it's going to be painful for some people along the way due to the fact that sexism is designed to be a core issue, which isn't the fault of the character. This chapter was pretty much dedicated to Zoro, and provided us with a snapshot of his character. My take on this is simple. Zoro was greatly affected by Kuina's death, and the things she said before she died. It doesn't help that the entire thing stinks of suicide to this day. I'm not convinced that Zoro really believes that women are weak, because he spent his childhood getting whipped by one. I do believe that he doesn't like to hurt women, though, as supported by his line about having things he doesn't want to cut. He's willing to, though, if it comes down to that, unlike Sanji, but given the choice he'd prefer not to. Not liking to but being also being willing to if need be is really... pretty normal. He's also not hung up on the fact, as the simple truth is that Tashigi and Monet just aren't in his league. I saw this with surprising clarity on my first read through last week. But then I analyzed and reanalyzed to see if I could talk myself out of it for fear of the backlash if it was right, and doing that just seems silly now. It's not as if women are the only thing he doesn't like to cut, since he didn't want to cut Hyouzou either (in fact, the way he handled Monet was pretty much a mirror image of how he handled Hyouzou). But there are legitimate reasons for his character to shy away from it, and as long as he's willing to when it comes down to it, that's fine with me. Let the man have a little internal conflict. It certainly wasn't overplayed or a major factor by any means. Yes, it's probably an issue for him, but it's a tiny, fairly insignificant and easy to overcome issue that doesn't deserve the backlash that it will receive.
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The second person to blame for sexism being an issue is Tashigi (and the borderline third would be Kuina). She makes such a big stink about it while being relatively weak, and she has a history of making large assumptions that aren't accurate. As a result, the things she says can confuse us. I, for one, will not take anything she claims to know about Zoro as fact after all of her poor assumptions of him. She was also never on his level before, and she wasn't going to magically catch up to him while he trained, and it's not because she's a woman. But in truth, she's integral to Zoro's story and she's the driving force behind the sexism debate in OP. Her and Kuina are how Oda acknowledges sexism as an issue in the story. And because the author acknowledges it, it's also fair for us to expect a resolution that redeems the strength of women by the end. Big Mom will shatter the concept that women are weak sooner than later, by herself, and I doubt she'll do it alone. So exercise patience. Monet and Tashigi simply aren't that strong, just like a lot of male characters, and we knew this last week. Even together they'd be no match for Zoro at all. I don't really know how the end will play out, but it's always seemed like Tashigi was designed to be desperate to chase and catch up throughout the story. That leans towards an eventual conclusion of some type of redemption for her in the end, but it might be too much to assume that means defeating Zoro, because he's not really evil and she could come to realize that. I didn't want to delve so deeply into this topic, but I feel like Zoro's backstory, which is more relevant now than ever since entering the Grand Line, sort of demands it for once, since sexism is an integral part of it. And now I can do the rest of this post without worrying about this aspect.
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I'm absolutely loving Sanji in his role of leading G5. It just doesn't get less amusing to me from chapter to chapter, like I would expect. It's going to be hard to view these guys as serious enemies in the future, much to Smoker's dismay. And listen up, because when Sanji says something positive about Zoro, it has as much credibility as anything said in the entire manga. Because he won't say something like that if it's not 100% accurate. I am quite pleased with the way Sanji handled this situation. I expected painful drama about hurting women, but no, that's the job of Tashigi and the fanbase.
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I rather enjoyed the other dynamics between Zoro and Tashigi. Tashigi tries to make a fool out of Zoro, so Zoro puts her in a situation to make a fool out of herself. And it fit with his attitude of "as long as I get my job done it's fine." I tend to strongly believe Zoro's words over Tashigi's, especially when it's about him. I sensed a lot of truth in what he was saying throughout the chapter. I don't think he was kidding himself like Tashigi would like to believe. The end of the chapter seemed like it would have been a repeat of how the Hyouzou fight ended, but Tashigi stepped in instead and pretended she saved the day. So Zoro spent the final panels mocking her for it. That made me laugh.
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Even if Tashigi is still a ways behind, she still got to do more than ever before. She actually inflicted damage on someone with a name. Shocking, eh? A logia user even! She proved she could use both haki and rokushiki techniques. She was also used to show off Monet's ability when she gets serious. And with Zoro there and the rest of the crew not wanting to fight her, that was probably the best way, since she wasn't going to land another hit on them. And Tashigi even managed to fulfill that role without just being fodder. Not letting Monet take her shoulder after getting bit was a nice touch. She fought admirably given her relative strength, while remaining consistent to her character. I'm good with that.
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I'm marking this as the official reveal of Zoro's kingbition (color of the conqueror/haoushoku), which I've been anticipating for this arc for quite a while now. And a chapter devoted to Zoro would be the right time for it. Yeah, he proved to the doubters that he could use armor haki, which is good, but I was taking that for granted anyway. Zoro scared Monet to the point of her being unable to move. According to Rayleigh, the color of the conqueror is basically the power of overwhelming through intimidation. So if it's not kingbition, then it's basically the same thing but nameless, which seems silly. He also only cut her cheek, and I'm sure that's not enough to make her freeze by itself. I'm just glad that we saw what I believe is likely to be another application of kingbition beyond knocking fodder out. The ability was bound to have some sort of merit against strong opponents, and it was clearly going to be tied to an intimidation factor, so this was the logical progression whether it was revealed or not. Against a strong opponent it might not be more than a moment of hesitation or panic, but even that can change a fight. I'm also a fan of how Zoro followed it up. He used a move I don't think we've ever seen before, so the fact that it's really strong should be a given. By not using armor haki with it, Monet got to experience the power of it without really being hurt by it, and it shattered her mentally. But she was so shaken that she couldn't even control her own fruit power anymore. Maybe that particular aspect wasn't kingbition related, but I tend to think it was, since he froze her leading into it and I have a tough time believing that she's always so mentally fragile. I like how Zoro compared himself to a wild animal because it makes sense to me. Since he said it, it's something we should probably take to heart.
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I'll say Oda didn't hype Monet. That was the people that instantly latched onto her that were going gaga over her. From the second Usopp saw her people seemed to be so enthused to see a pretty woman (this one has wings!). Whether that was because they liked her design, or her whatever, people have been over hyping her. She has silly glasses and reads the newspaper! They find out she's working for Doflamingo, pile on the extra hype and theories. Find out she's a snow Logia, holy balls, next Nakama! Honestly I feel like people brought on their own disappointment.
I kinda agree with the fanbase hype vs manga hype. Really all we saw of Monet was her heavy snow huts and that she was smarter than CC. Since she did tail Law without him noticing. She did get overconfident in that battle because she thought she had Zoro's number and saw a way to win.
I think if she hadn't believed Zoro would never cut her she would have found a way to get stall/get rid of him the same way she did Luffy.That said. This week's chapter didn't fill my hunger for One Piece at all. I don't know why, maybe it was the fact that it was just one scene (and a half) from start to finish but that's how matchup chapters go usually. So I don't know.
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I'm going to go against popular opinion here and say that I don't have a problem with how Tashigi has been handled. Like someone else said, Zoro has always been miles ahead of her, and had constantly been spending all of his available time training before he spent two years with the best swordsman in the world. So she shouldn't be anywhere close to him. I think her being saved by Zoro and Sanji is just another way for her to see their strength after coming back. The Strawhats were her and Smoker's big motivator to get stronger after seeing them fix injustices that they were incapable of fixing themselves. So having another incident which they're unable to fix themselves will serve to push them harder yet again. As it stands she's weak for the New World, but compared to the first half of the grand line she'd probably be considered a monster. I expect her to always be in Zoro's shadow as far as strength and accomplishments until the end of the series where she might start catching up a little bit.
Edit- Spent a long time on this post trying to get my thoughts out without being retarded, and Urouge's post put me to shame. :(
Can see the criticism in there not being any high level females who have played a big role in the series so far though.
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Dude did you forget about Big mom? or you think that ugly women don't have boobs?
She will be the weakest and first Yonko to be defeated.You heard it here first.
And Zoro will kill her,because she is ugly and weak.And the forum will explode,because of sexist Zoro.
Or…
Big Mom will have really sad backstory,Luffy will save her from something and she will become the new nakama.But after she eat the beauty-beauty fruit and become pretty of course. -
Zoro and Tashigi acting like a bickering old married couple just made that chapter for me!
Also, two cents on the whole "Zoro won't cut women" thing. Personally don't think it's related to gender at all. The fact simply stands that every woman opponent he's come across hasn't really been worth the time. And how often is it that we even get female opponents? Like 1 per Arc, maybe 2? Looking at the last arcs, we got none in FI (unless you add Big Mam who wasn't fought), and then the 1 of Monet in PH. Backtracking a bit still gives the same percentages, and not many went against Zoro. Overall we just get dudes, and so does he. That's low odds for 1. getting a female opponent, and 2. having that opponent match up to Zoro out of the nine other members of the Straw Hats.
Tashigi meanwhile is another matter completely. He just doesn't want to deal with her because of how she looks like Kuina, and that bothers him. That was stated when he first met her and reiterated in this chapter. Now I'm probably biased as I like Tashigi - she reminds me of like a female Usopp in that she is always trying, yet has many flaws to overcome - but I don't get why everyone else is criticizing how she is being handled. As I just said, she doesn't and hasn't from the beginning stuck me as someone who is going to end up really powerful, at least not in comparison with the high tier Straw Hats.
Anyway, backing up, if Zoro does end up with a female opponent that he sees as either a challenge or worth his time - pretty or not? - he's going to fight. Same as if he were fighting some dude. I don't see him processing anything more thought than that for how he chooses his battles.
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I'm sorry but this shit got me all confused.
so zoro does't like to fight agaist women but will
he'll fight them but not go all out
and I wanna know i missed some but zoro does haveCoA haki ? right
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@RPG:
I'm sorry but this shit got me all confused.
so zoro does't like to fight agaist women but will
he'll fight them but not go all out
and I wanna know i missed some but zoro does haveCoA haki ? rightYou should read Urouge's post. I think it answers your questions nicely.
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Zoro was a badass this chapter, and I liked how Sanji handled the situation between Zoro and Monet
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If you're ugly girl, you will get defeated by a guy; if you're an pretty girl, you'll get into a cat fight and be beaten by a another pretty girl. #OdaHasSPOKETH! :blink::getlost:
:ninja:My only complaint is that ALL tashigi seems to have gotten over the past 2 years is haki and somewhat soru (she couldn't dodge more than once when it's been shown luffy can just keep moving after the first soru). Her fighting abilities besides those two seem the same, just from her previous "fights" and this one.
And Zoro seems SO much more powerful than Sanji, which I'm not happy about. I wished he fared better against Vergo.
Didn't hate the chapter, it was decent. BUT to all the ppl crying about ppl crying about sexism: b/c it is sexist. The point still stands and biatching about ppl b*tching about sexism won't change the fact that they're right.
edit: lastly I thought it was strange, I think it's obvious Zoro could've killed monet at anytime so when she stabbed Robin I think it was inexcusable that he didn't deal a finishing blow, no matter how weak/pretty she is. Nakama before ho's.
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Heh, like Mihawk said: "Only idiots go all out when hunting a small (snow) rabbit." Unfortunatly, Zoro really did NOT have a smaller knife on him at the time.
At least he's not quoting Mihawk like with the frog in the well thing.
EDIT: Also correct me if I'm wrong but one of the things Zoro doesn't like to cut are boogers right? I think he wasn't proud of cutting them. Now I want to see Zoro cut feces. XD
Fans make the fandom. What is your fandom made of?
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I wonder if Oda forgot his consistency, or did he troll us the whole time? Zoro is clearly and seriously a BAMF, to the point a Logia using, martial art using assassin can't even keep herself together (literally) in his presence.
Just a few chapters ago, Luffy looked like he was having trouble against Monet.
BTW, if Zoro is a wild animal, Luffy is an even more wild primal existence, with a big heart. I say that because he instinctively toned down his power to honor and acknowledge his opponents. If he wanted to, he could have simply used CoC to knock out both CC and Monet. It seems he can't pass judgment until he learns the truth, so he "plays" around. He didn't even think about what he should do, or what consequences his decision would give. Wait, hasn't he always done that? Is Luffy some kind of enlightened being? Maybe one should fathom upon it.
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I wonder if Oda forgot his consistency, or did he troll us the whole time? Zoro is clearly and seriously a BAMF, to the point a Logia using, martial art using assassin can't even keep herself together (literally) in his presence.
Just a few chapters ago, Luffy looked like he was having trouble against Monet.
BTW, if Zoro is a wild animal, Luffy is an even more wild primal existence, with a big heart. I say that because he instinctively toned down his power to honor and acknowledge his opponents. If he wanted to, he could have simply used CoC to knock out both CC and Monet. It seems he can't pass judgment until he learns the truth, so he "plays" around. He didn't even think about what he should do, or what consequences his decision would give. Wait, hasn't he always done that? Is Luffy some kind of enlightened being? Maybe one should fathom upon it.
I don't see how he's being inconsistent. Luffy wasn't having trouble, but he was being Luffy. Which means he wasn't really thinking. He seemed to run into the same issue as Zoro. He didn't know what Monet's powers were and didn't sense her as an immediate threat. He was slow to react and didn't have a real interest in fighting her, he was looking for CC originally, she didn't really seem to factor in at the time for him.
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Goodbye, Monet, we hardly knew ye
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Zoro was a badass this chapter, and I liked how Sanji handled the situation between Zoro and Monet
Big step for Sanji as well, in the past he would've attacked Zoro and shouted things like: this is not how you treat a rrrrady.
Sanji knew very well what Zoro could/would do to Monet as soon as he left the building. Indirectly he's saying: go ahead as long as I'm not watching.
So where Zoro gained some of his principles during the timeskip, Sanji toned them down a bit.
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One thing I disliked in this chapter was her Snowball bunnies.
Sad to see there were inanimate is all forms. They basically just looked like bunnies. Wanted to see them like BOUNCE or HOP off the ground in some way. Otherwise why not make them be Snow CHIC's instead. you know being she is a harpy. Baby chics would make more sense than bunnies.
Not really when you remember Drum arc, the Lapans were those big rabbits living on a winter winter island. So OP does have snow rabbits but we've not seen snow 'baby chics'. One panel of a nest of snow birds? yeah but not chicks
If you're ugly girl, you will get defeated by a guy; if you're an pretty girl, you'll get into a cat fight and be beaten by a another pretty girl. #OdaHasSPOKETH! :blink::getlost:
:ninja:My only complaint is that ALL tashigi seems to have gotten over the past 2 years is haki and somewhat soru (she couldn't dodge more than once when it's been shown luffy can just keep moving after the first soru). Her fighting abilities besides those two seem the same, just from her previous "fights" and this one.
You forgot she can cut steel same as Zoro now, first time we saw her after timeskip she cut a cannonball in half. While many fans thinks "not impressive", it is to other chracters in OP where only upper level swordsmen can accomplish that. Oda's shown marines & govt workers (CP ?5? and others on board that car) to be utterly shocked when Zoro cut that rail car in half on their way to Ennies Lobby. And they were close to the end of the first half of the Grand Line, if a large chunk of people can cut steel then they would have experienced it before and not be shocked.
Not every swordsman can do that, heck 75% of marines (there is always a buttload of grunts compared to comanding ranks) so that's why I said 'upper level', to differ from the 'average joe'. Still in that 'upper rank' would still be segemented, with Mihawk at very top, Zoro a little lower and Tashigi at bottom….but she's improved enough to be above that average joe
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You forgot she can cut steel same as Zoro now, first time we saw her after timeskip she cut a cannonball in half. While many fans thinks "not impressive", it is to other chracters in OP where only upper level swordsmen can accomplish that.
Cannon balls are typically made of iron. I don't feel that's a good example unless somewhere it stated steel cannon ball.
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Caribou is a cock hole. Monet melts. Next chapter Vergo bites the smoke.
That is all.
.. Well, not really. I get the feeling we've not seen the last of Monet. My personal theory is that once the Strawhats leave the island with Caesar, we'll get a quick look-back to Baby 5 and Buffalo arriving (a la post Skypeia Jaya), and they'll deal with her and Vergo as their master sees fit. Either way, Monet is screwed. Or a potential future comeback! Who knows.
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I like how every time she interacts with zoro, tashigi finds out how most of her assumptions about him are wrong. The interaction between them didn't feel wrong to me, and I felt tashigi's presence was practical because I believe, contrary to what he says, that zoro probably wouldn't have dealt the finishing blow to monet if he didn't consider her a threat. Tashigi on the other hand, as most of one piece's female cast, was very pragmatic about it.
I also appreciated how zoro was honest about their difference in power levels, without being a jerk about it (well, maybe he was, very subtly though). -
Cannon balls are typically made of iron. I don't feel that's a good example unless somewhere it stated steel cannon ball.
I knew when I typed that that sayign "steel" may be taken literally. I wanted to type 'cut metal' but used steel instead because I seem to remember (which can be wrong) the scene of Zoro's flashback talkign with his teacher then when he finally figured out how to use the technique they called it 'cutting steel' so I went that wording but meant metal in general.
Do you think I should just go edit it to say metal so no one else gets confused…or more confused -
Oh god, the thread became unreadable.
What people have to realize is that the woman has to be stronger than Sanji or near him in order for it to matter.
Someone said 50% of the population could kill Sanji. Not true. He showed against Califa that while not attacking he can still defend himself without hurting her. And i bet there aren't that many woman in the world stronger than her.
Marines that could bite Sanji in the ass later on? Hmm…. I really can't think of a female marine that is strong enough to face Sanji and be able to hurt him. Again he can defend himself. Zoro showed this chapter that Tashigi isn't near his league. So if Sanji is anywhere near Zoro's league, then that eliminates her. Who else is a female marine? The old grandma. prolly retired by now, if not I doubt they ever fight.
That leaves what Smokers woman, and the giant woman. I can see smokers woman (hina, right?) being at Sanji's level, since I see her being at/around Smokers level. And I see him around monster trio's level.
SO maybe at some point it will be
1. Luffy vs. Smoker
2. Sanji vs. Hina
3. Zoro vs. Tashigi (she needs to up her game big time)I'd like to say I like this theory. It's a good one.
The sad thing is that it continues to make Tashigi seem weaker and until she overcomes that feeling that Kuina overcame because of Zoro, Tashigi will never grow as a swordsman.
She believes she is weaker because she is a woman, and thus she is.
If this is Oda's intent or not, I don't know. But at some point she has to stop thinking that Zoro or other men are looking down at her.
To be fair, I'm sure that she's come across plenty of people who don't think that women can be good at physical combat. Even Zoro's beloved master, Koushiro, used to think the same way, although he came around. It happens that Zoro is not one of them, but then the issues isn't so much some internal struggle as it is the fact that she's quick to leap to assumptions. Understandable, but yeah, there's definitely room for improvement there.
The end of the chapter seemed like it would have been a repeat of how the Hyouzou fight ended, but Tashigi stepped in instead and pretended she saved the day. So Zoro spent the final panels mocking her for it. That made me laugh.
Agree with most of your post, but I interpreted "You lose" as words to Zoro, not Monet. As in, he lost because he wouldn't deliver the finishing blow, at least in Tashigi's mind. After all, "you won't lose, but you won't win either" was ALSO directed towards him, and it seems like a natural follow-up.
Don't know what his rationale was behind him delivering the finishing blow was. Get her more confident? Toy with her? It feels in character for him, but heck if I know why.
Originally Posted by CCC
Man, woman, who cares!? Sure, they love show tunes, but who doesn't?
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I knew when I typed that that sayign "steel" may be taken literally. I wanted to type 'cut metal' but used steel instead because I seem to remember (which can be wrong) the scene of Zoro's flashback talkign with his teacher then when he finally figured out how to use the technique they called it 'cutting steel' so I went that wording but meant metal in general.
Do you think I should just go edit it to say metal so no one else gets confused…or more confusedEr I dunno. Up to you if you wanna change it. But now that you explained it in this post it makes more sense. Tashigi I can't recall doing anything note worthy since she usually lost pathetically. So I sorta glossed over her actually doing something that I take for granted because Zoro does it all the time as part of the normal defense of the ship with ease.
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Er I dunno. Up to you if you wanna change it. But now that you explained it in this post it makes more sense. Tashigi I can't recall doing anything note worthy since she usually lost pathetically. So I sorta glossed over her actually doing something that I take for granted because Zoro does it all the time as part of the normal defense of the ship with ease.
True, and with the metal cutting, we've only seen Tashigi do it once whereas we've seen Zoro do it a lot…and a score of other techniques. While I think Tashigi is a good swordswoman, I know she's nowhere near Zoro's level.
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Oh Oda, why must you make likeable female characters, and then abuse every single one of them so?
How did Tashigi survive this far in the New World, and become 2nd to Smoker with the way Oda keeps presenting her anyway? Is Zoro just messing with her because she looks like Kuina but lacks her strength (as remembered by a very young Zoro)?
Also Zoro are you trying to be mysterious? Not fighting enemies who are not worth your time?
Serious New World is Serious Luffy! > Leave the fighting to the rest of the team until Robin gets stabbed
Gets ass kicked consistently by childhood female friend > You can be strongest swordsman even if you are a girl! > Suddenly STAIRS! > Hit women > Won't hit women > Hit women > She is a woman rage @ Enel > Beautiful Lady Swordsman wake-up call > Won't hit women without good reason > But will cut her in half with good reason> But won't really kill her anyway > You were going to cut her down anywayOda you better explain more later. This never really came up before with Zoro. Why now? Is it to only give Tashigi a chance to have a half-assed fight? Because it looks to be that way to me right now…
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Agree with most of your post, but I interpreted "You lose" as words to Zoro, not Monet. As in, he lost because he wouldn't deliver the finishing blow, at least in Tashigi's mind. After all, "you won't lose, but you won't win either" was ALSO directed towards him, and it seems like a natural follow-up.
First, I disagree. Tashigi admitted he wouldn't lose to her early in the chapter, and was amazed that a fight could be won in such a way in her monologue afterwards (this is after Monet got back up and couldn't control her power). She could try to claim that he didn't win, but to imply that he lost would be silly. No matter how I look at it, Tashigi viewed Monet as the loser because she was so scared that she could hardly stand (not to mention Tashigi put the finishing blow on her). But more importantly, it doesn't really matter. Tashigi has proven that she doesn't get the final say on this stuff. She's wrong about Zoro far too often.
Don't know what his rationale was behind him delivering the finishing blow was. Get her more confident? Toy with her? It feels in character for him, but heck if I know why.
I take what Zoro said at face value. He was about to cut her up for daring to attack again. That's exactly how his fight with Hyouzou went down. Not only did he break all of the guy's swords, he cut them the long way as well. He proved to both Hyouzou and Monet that they were absolutely no match for him in any way. And he had the resolve to use a finishing blow if that proof didn't cause them to stand down.
The difference in this case is that Tashigi interfered when she saw an opening. I don't think Zoro cared if she did one way or the other, other than it freeing him of a minor hassle.
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Coribou's "hair" being shocked was one of the greatest parts of the chapter to me :P
Also, I'm ready for Franky's triumphant return. Anytime now Oda…
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Meh. Still not buying it.
It's clear that nearly everyone is fine with it, in part thanks to Robby's and Urouge's well-written and well-thought-out arguments, but I've got one more piece to say after having calmed down and sorted my thoughts. I'm sorry if you don't like it. I really am. I'm also sorry that one of my favored arguing techniques ended up being the snarky rhetorical question.! First, concerning Zoro's motivations… We've got Sanji implying Zoro's [relatively mild] sexism (not word of God, but close enough), G-5 commenting on how stupid [Sanji's] sexism is, Monet and Tashigi suspecting that Zoro is sexist, a flashback to remind us that Tashigi thought Zoro was sexist way back when (but appeared to be wrong…), and Zoro tip-toeing around the question and never answering it directly, instead going with "There are some things I don't like to cut" and "Every wild animal will bite sooner or later." Will bite... what? Weak enemies? Does he not like to cut weak enemies because they're not worth his time or because they don't deserve the honor? Is that some great sign of maturity after two years with Mihawk? Maybe it would be, if it were true.
! Mihawk destroys ships because he's bored or because someone woke him up from a nap. He cut down Daz Bones and a bunch of Okamas like so much fodder while calling them weak. And Mihawk had no personal stake there; no good friends who would be hurt if Daz somehow rushed through the defenses. He probably couldn't care less about the government's problems and Ace's execution, but he was merciless. He doesn't toy with them or try to buy time just because he can, neither did he do that with Zoro. He was making a point to Zoro, because he recognized him as someone with great potential who needed a good lesson in humility.
! So it's no wonder that his pupil's first act post-TS was to destroy a ship on its way to the New World (a clear parallel), just because he screwed up and fell asleep in the wrong place (again, a parallel with Mihawk's nap). Zoro took down Neptune like it was nothing, destroyed tons of weak fishman fodder without hesitating, and jumped in to face Hyouzou after Hyouzou merely threatened Robin- first destroying his weapons, and then giving him the honor of actually being cut by his blades. The accusation that fans would have no problem if Monet were a big, scary, people-eating, children-poisoning male? I disagree. Such an abomination as Monet, with or without boobs, needed to be taken down posthaste. All it would have taken was an attack similar to Tashigi's- a light slash across the back. If she really were male and Oda wrote the fight the same way, the course of events would seem very strange, and I would still definitely be questioning Zoro's decisions. Repeatedly defending against a dangerous enemy's attacks while gritting your teeth and rushing to make sure your friends don't get hurt, and then (twice) dodging the direct question of why you didn't fight back is not convincing.
! I would next cite wolfwood's point that Zoro's choice to toy with Monet (because she's weak?) was incredibly foolish. She'd shown herself to be quite dangerous (if not to him, then at least to, uh, everyone else), had gotten off a sneak attack on Robin, taken a chunk of fodder shoulder, and nearly ate Chopper's head. What if she had sent a snow clone through the vents and killed Nami while Zoro was busy being an arrogant asshole? And right after his big New-World-warning to Luffy? That line is now completely trivialized. This is out of character, or at the very least, demonstrating a very negative and relatively unprecedented aspect of his character. If this eventually leads to some great tragedy as a direct result of his cockiness, which by all means it should, then it will have been worth it (because everyone loves foreshadowing/build-up). This point isn't proof of sexism, but concerns the possible consequences of it, no matter what it's masquerading as.
! If one part of the argument is the Zoro-usually-has-a-handicap thing, well, I'm not seeing it. Seems like grasping for straws when the Occam's Razor explanation is simply about sex/gender. The one time when he has no noticeable handicap (except zero depth perception m i rite?) and is therefore supposedly just taking it easy on the opponent is also the one time that his [important to the arc as a whole] opponent happens to be a woman? Does Oda expect his 12-year old readers, without so much as a hint via some dialogue, to be so damn observant and say to themselves "Ah ha! If I think back over the last 686 chapters, this is the first major fight where Zoro doesn't have a handicap! That's the key explanation here!" Nah. Adding insult to injury, even without a handicap he beats her with a non-damaging attack, sheer intimidation, and by outsourcing his work to another woman.
! Cabaji, Hachi, Mr. 1, Braham (the crucial non-swordsman exception), Ohm, T-Bone, Kaku, Ryuuma, Hyouzou, and countless piss-poor-worthless fodderlings got the honor of giant bleeding slashes across their bodies, delivered by Zoro via his blade or an XX Pound Hou (sure, Ryuuma actually caught on fire…). Ms. Monday got a head crush, the nun got the back o' the sword, and Monet's souvenir is a tiny scratch on the cheek. Were Monet male, that would be the lightest punishment Zoro has ever dealt to a male. Want to blame Oda for not creating strong females for Zoro to fight, so that he can still hide behind the weak/strong in-world excuse? Fine. Still, that is what it is, and I don't think Hyouzou was somehow leagues above Monet. Robby said it himself: "Zoro doesn't care to fight women." That's the unfortunate truth. At least he's a different flavor of chivalrous buffoon than Sanji, you say? Working off of bushido and arrogance (disdain, even?) instead of white-knighting and lust? The subtle, hierarchical Eastern brand to Sanji's flamboyant, romantic Western one? Somehow that's still not very satisfying.@Urogue's final point: Would Zoro have dealt the final blow to Monet? Maybe. No way to know (so all we can really do is take him at his word), because Oda decided to not make it happen that way. This is as much about the author's decision re: plotting/character development as what we assume are the characters' motivations themselves, and about how those decisions by the author reflect on the tone of the story on the whole.
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I started reading this thread and had to stop and comment because I was surprised to see so many comments about how Zoro won't fight a girl, as I didn't get that at all.
First of all, him not fighting a woman, because they're a woman is an insult to Kuina. One of the very last things she said to him is how she can't be the best because she's a girl, which flat out pissed Zoro off. So why in the hell would he do that to her memory, it goes against Zoro's characterization from the very start.
Second, Zoro will take down a woman if they're a threat, but he won't kill anyone (not just a woman) unless he absolutely has to. Obviously he was going to fight her, which is why he told Tashigi to leave as well. He also explicitly says he would have cut her had Tashigi not.
This poster puts it best:
@DynamiteShikoku:i guess zoro made it clear. he acts like a wild animal would. if you stay away, you wont get bite. he will only fight back if he is threatened. so he wont cut monet unless his life or the crew's life is in danger. clearly that's not the case so he wont cut her. he just intimidate her just like a wild animal would do before start attacking.
Now for what I really want to get into: Tashigi being saved again.
I think it's completely different now than it was with Sanji. Tashigi wasn't beaten yet. She was still fighting, and I imagine she would have made away from Monet and given her a good fight. I think Zoro interfered just because he could. Tashigi was obviously still okay, and finished Monet off, which, by the way, let's not forget that Monet took absolutely no damage from Zoro's attack and had reformed by the time Tashigi cut her, so she was still going strong, which means Tashigi didn't just get Zoro's left overs.
The whole point of this chapter was not to make Tashigi look weak, no Oda wants us to think she is strong, that way it makes Zoro look even stronger and more bad ass.
So yeah, that's my two cents on what I'm sure has spurned the rest of the discussion in this thread.
Sorry I'm so late to the party.
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@CCC:
Meh. Still not buying it… ...This is as much about the author's decision re: plotting/character development as what we assume are the characters' motivations themselves, and about how those decisions by the author reflect on the tone of the story on the whole.
Thank you so much for putting into words what bothered me the most about this chapter.
The choices Oda made here, instead of further developing his characters, really made me scratch my head. Hopefully more will be explained later, before more people try to explain it via the generalization of sexist shonen mangaka. -
First, I disagree. Tashigi admitted he wouldn't lose to her early in the chapter, and was amazed that a fight could be won in such a way in her monologue afterwards (this is after Monet got back up and couldn't control her power). She could try to claim that he didn't win, but to imply that he lost would be silly. No matter how I look at it, Tashigi viewed Monet as the loser because she was so scared that she could hardly stand (not to mention Tashigi put the finishing blow on her). But more importantly, it doesn't really matter. Tashigi has proven that she doesn't get the final say on this stuff. She's wrong about Zoro far too often.
I take what Zoro said at face value. He was about to cut her up for daring to attack again. That's exactly how his fight with Hyouzou went down. Not only did he break all of the guy's swords, he cut them the long way as well. He proved to both Hyouzou and Monet that they were absolutely no match for him in any way. And he had the resolve to use a finishing blow if that proof didn't cause them to stand down.
The difference in this case is that Tashigi interfered when she saw an opening. I don't think Zoro cared if she did one way or the other, other than it freeing him of a minor hassle.
Eh. Not lose as in "he lost the fight," but as in he lost honor or any respect that Tashigi had for him. He lost the metaphorical fight, even if he beat Monet physically, in Tashigi's mind. She seems like the sort of person to think like that.
I think for myself, CCC, and a few others, it really comes down to Oda, not Zoro. If Oda really wanted the fact that Zoro is willing to cut down women just as equally as men (Monet v. Hyouzou) to come clear, and that it's their strength that Zoro cares about, then Oda really shouldn't have brought up gender at all or wasted time with Zoro's borderline condescending dialogue. Or if he was just toying around with Monet, it was weird to wrap that in the context of Tashigi's assertions (or have Tashigi pop in at all). If Oda wants Zoro to go easier on women unless he can't otherwise, then it is what it is even if it's dumb. I'm hoping one or the other is made more explicit in the next chapter.
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! My eyes aren't hazy with blood rage like I'm sure half this forum is right now, so I rather liked this chapter.
! - Ok, the cover story caught me way off guard. Ahahaha. I wasn't sure last week's cover was necessary, but with this continuation it makes a lot more sense. Caribou is such a dick. I'm pleasantly surprised that G5 is as strong as it is. You know Caribou would love to bury them all alive if he could.
! - I'm just going to start out with the elephant in the room that is sexism. I know it'll be a huge point of contention for people all week. There are two (or three) people to blame for this being an issue, and none of them are Zoro. The first person is Oda. I thought the characters actions and dialog were all fitting, so I have no issues there. Oda's the one who put Zoro against a woman who was far weaker than him, and then tossed Tashigi on top with all of her awful assumptions of Zoro. Had he crafted a different situation, then all of this would have disappeared. But the truth is that he had his reasons. The massively inescapable reason for Oda going this route is…
! - Zoro's backstory. It's high time to advance the underlying issues behind Zoro's personal story beyond just his strength, especially as it relates to Tashigi, because it hasn't been addressed since East Blue. We have his one chapter flashback, and his confrontation with Tashigi back in Loguetown. That's about it. So color me actually happy to see the development of it get started back up again. This is a series long developmental story rooted in Kuina's death, and it's going to be painful for some people along the way due to the fact that sexism is designed to be a core issue, which isn't the fault of the character. This chapter was pretty much dedicated to Zoro, and provided us with a snapshot of his character. My take on this is simple. Zoro was greatly affected by Kuina's death, and the things she said before she died. It doesn't help that the entire thing stinks of suicide to this day. I'm not convinced that Zoro really believes that women are weak, because he spent his childhood getting whipped by one. I do believe that he doesn't like to hurt women, though, as supported by his line about having things he doesn't want to cut. He's willing to, though, if it comes down to that, unlike Sanji, but given the choice he'd prefer not to. Not liking to but being also being willing to if need be is really... pretty normal. He's also not hung up on the fact, as the simple truth is that Tashigi and Monet just aren't in his league. I saw this with surprising clarity on my first read through last week. But then I analyzed and reanalyzed to see if I could talk myself out of it for fear of the backlash if it was right, and doing that just seems silly now. It's not as if women are the only thing he doesn't like to cut, since he didn't want to cut Hyouzou either (in fact, the way he handled Monet was pretty much a mirror image of how he handled Hyouzou). But there are legitimate reasons for his character to shy away from it, and as long as he's willing to when it comes down to it, that's fine with me. Let the man have a little internal conflict. It certainly wasn't overplayed or a major factor by any means. Yes, it's probably an issue for him, but it's a tiny, fairly insignificant and easy to overcome issue that doesn't deserve the backlash that it will receive.
! - The second person to blame for sexism being an issue is Tashigi (and the borderline third would be Kuina). She makes such a big stink about it while being relatively weak, and she has a history of making large assumptions that aren't accurate. As a result, the things she says can confuse us. I, for one, will not take anything she claims to know about Zoro as fact after all of her poor assumptions of him. She was also never on his level before, and she wasn't going to magically catch up to him while he trained, and it's not because she's a woman. But in truth, she's integral to Zoro's story and she's the driving force behind the sexism debate in OP. Her and Kuina are how Oda acknowledges sexism as an issue in the story. And because the author acknowledges it, it's also fair for us to expect a resolution that redeems the strength of women by the end. Big Mom will shatter the concept that women are weak sooner than later, by herself, and I doubt she'll do it alone. So exercise patience. Monet and Tashigi simply aren't that strong, just like a lot of male characters, and we knew this last week. Even together they'd be no match for Zoro at all. I don't really know how the end will play out, but it's always seemed like Tashigi was designed to be desperate to chase and catch up throughout the story. That leans towards an eventual conclusion of some type of redemption for her in the end, but it might be too much to assume that means defeating Zoro, because he's not really evil and she could come to realize that. I didn't want to delve so deeply into this topic, but I feel like Zoro's backstory, which is more relevant now than ever since entering the Grand Line, sort of demands it for once, since sexism is an integral part of it. And now I can do the rest of this post without worrying about this aspect.
! - I'm absolutely loving Sanji in his role of leading G5. It just doesn't get less amusing to me from chapter to chapter, like I would expect. It's going to be hard to view these guys as serious enemies in the future, much to Smoker's dismay. And listen up, because when Sanji says something positive about Zoro, it has as much credibility as anything said in the entire manga. Because he won't say something like that if it's not 100% accurate. I am quite pleased with the way Sanji handled this situation. I expected painful drama about hurting women, but no, that's the job of Tashigi and the fanbase.
! - I rather enjoyed the other dynamics between Zoro and Tashigi. Tashigi tries to make a fool out of Zoro, so Zoro puts her in a situation to make a fool out of herself. And it fit with his attitude of "as long as I get my job done it's fine." I tend to strongly believe Zoro's words over Tashigi's, especially when it's about him. I sensed a lot of truth in what he was saying throughout the chapter. I don't think he was kidding himself like Tashigi would like to believe. The end of the chapter seemed like it would have been a repeat of how the Hyouzou fight ended, but Tashigi stepped in instead and pretended she saved the day. So Zoro spent the final panels mocking her for it. That made me laugh.
! - Even if Tashigi is still a ways behind, she still got to do more than ever before. She actually inflicted damage on someone with a name. Shocking, eh? A logia user even! She proved she could use both haki and rokushiki techniques. She was also used to show off Monet's ability when she gets serious. And with Zoro there and the rest of the crew not wanting to fight her, that was probably the best way, since she wasn't going to land another hit on them. And Tashigi even managed to fulfill that role without just being fodder. Not letting Monet take her shoulder after getting bit was a nice touch. She fought admirably given her relative strength, while remaining consistent to her character. I'm good with that.
! - I'm marking this as the official reveal of Zoro's kingbition (color of the conqueror/haoushoku), which I've been anticipating for this arc for quite a while now. And a chapter devoted to Zoro would be the right time for it. Yeah, he proved to the doubters that he could use armor haki, which is good, but I was taking that for granted anyway. Zoro scared Monet to the point of her being unable to move. According to Rayleigh, the color of the conqueror is basically the power of overwhelming through intimidation. So if it's not kingbition, then it's basically the same thing but nameless, which seems silly. He also only cut her cheek, and I'm sure that's not enough to make her freeze by itself. I'm just glad that we saw what I believe is likely to be another application of kingbition beyond knocking fodder out. The ability was bound to have some sort of merit against strong opponents, and it was clearly going to be tied to an intimidation factor, so this was the logical progression whether it was revealed or not. Against a strong opponent it might not be more than a moment of hesitation or panic, but even that can change a fight. I'm also a fan of how Zoro followed it up. He used a move I don't think we've ever seen before, so the fact that it's really strong should be a given. By not using armor haki with it, Monet got to experience the power of it without really being hurt by it, and it shattered her mentally. But she was so shaken that she couldn't even control her own fruit power anymore. Maybe that particular aspect wasn't kingbition related, but I tend to think it was, since he froze her leading into it and I have a tough time believing that she's always so mentally fragile. I like how Zoro compared himself to a wild animal because it makes sense to me. Since he said it, it's something we should probably take to heart.i agree with most of your points.except the coc part.coc has no relation with someone physically attacking someone.she was only intimidated when zoro started attacking.also,it was pointed out by tashigi what zoro used.it will become more clear with ccc's translation.if he had used coc,tashigi would have noticed.as it is pointed out by tashigi directly,i don't think there is any doubt that it is not haki.
@ccc; i want to present some counter argument to you.
1)you have the impression that zoro did not attack monet at all,as you are disregarding his ittouryu attack like the others.the fact that he did not use haki does not mean his attack was useless.the attack was strong enough that monet couldn't even move properly.if the attack was useless,how could tashigi defeat her in a single strike whereas she was losing before?she was no match for monet.so he did attack her badly.he just didn't kill her.and he didn't kill miss monday.or any other person for that matter.
2)if he had attacked monet when everyone else was still around,as some others have pointed out that would have been more careless.she didn't want to fight him in the beginning.so she would have used some trickery or other to harm the others.he was more concerned about them,so he let them get away first.it could also be a fault of oda,as he wanted this situation to be there. -
@ccc; i want to present some counter argument to you.
1)you have the impression that zoro did not attack monet at all,as you are disregarding his ittouryu attack like the others.the fact that he did not use haki does not mean his attack was useless.the attack was strong enough that monet couldn't even move properly.if the attack was useless,how could tashigi defeat her in a single strike whereas she was losing before?she was no match for monet.so he did attack her badly.he just didn't kill her.and he didn't kill miss monday.or any other person for that matter.
2)if he had attacked monet when everyone else was still around,as some others have pointed out that would have been more careless.she didn't want to fight him in the beginning.so she would have used some trickery or other to harm the others.he was more concerned about them,so he let them get away first.it could also be a fault of oda,as he wanted this situation to be there.- Didn't say it was useless. But it wasn't the final blow that it could have been, the way all of Zoro's big amazing attacks always are (obviously I'm not suggesting that Zoro should have killed her. His fight-enders have never involved actually cutting someone in half…). It's the first time where an attack of his was not meant to damage but just to intimidate. That's the entire point of this chapter. Zoro, for whatever reason, left the finishing hit to Tashigi, trusting that she would take care of it.
- She was "using trickery to harm the others" anyway, regardless of Zoro's procrastinating. Zoro was just doing his best to run around and stop anything that would have actually been lethal. I personally think Oda got the other ladies out of the room first so that he wouldn't have to deal with thinking about how they would react to this situation. I wouldn't fault him for that, anyway. Just makes his life a bit easier to limit the necessary interactions.
Thank you, though, for trusting that this will somehow become easier to understand with my translation. I'm honored that you think that, and I'll do my best.
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Aww CCC, I love ya and it's not as if I think you're wrong. Don't hide.
@CCC:
Meh. Still not buying it.
It's clear that nearly everyone is fine with it, in part thanks to Robby's and Urouge's well-written and well-thought-out arguments, but I've got one more piece to say after having calmed down and sorted my thoughts. I'm sorry if you don't like it. I really am. I'm also sorry that one of my favored arguing techniques ended up being the snarky rhetorical question.I seriously doubt that 2 posts can quell this storm.
Will bite… what? Weak enemies? Does he not like to cut weak enemies because they're not worth his time or because they don't deserve the honor? Is that some great sign of maturity after two years with Mihawk? Maybe it would be, if it were true.
Mihawk destroys ships because he's bored or because someone woke him up from a nap. He cut down Daz Bones and a bunch of Okamas like so much fodder while calling them weak. And Mihawk had no personal stake there; no good friends who would be hurt if Daz somehow rushed through the defenses. He probably couldn't care less about the government's problems and Ace's execution, but he was merciless. He doesn't toy with them or try to buy time just because he can, neither did he do that with Zoro. He was making a point to Zoro, because he recognized him as someone with great potential who needed a good lesson in humility.
So it's no wonder that his pupil's first act post-TS was to destroy a ship on its way to the New World (a clear parallel), just because he screwed up and fell asleep in the wrong place (again, a parallel with Mihawk's nap). Zoro took down Neptune like it was nothing, destroyed tons of weak fishman fodder without hesitating, and jumped in to face Hyouzou after Hyouzou merely threatened Robin- first destroying his weapons, and then giving him the honor of actually being cut by his blades.
This might surprise you, but I agree. To suggest that Zoro holds back on people because they're weak seems like a bunch of nonsense to me, and you illustrate a lot of the reasons I feel that way. I will say that he'll stick to the appropriate force that he needs to win, and not go too far overboard.
My take on it is more that Zoro embraces any challenges that come his way as opportunities to get stronger. Fodder represents zero challenge for him, so chop chop, whatever, leave me alone. Hyouzou and Monet might not be strong enough to pose a serious threat to him, but they are strong enough to potentially present their own unique challenges. So I feel like it would be in his character to force their trump cards out of them for the experience. The result is apparent preferential treatment. Unfortuntately I'm feeling too lazy to dig up supporting evidence for this, but I might bother with it tomorrow if I get contested.
The accusation that fans would have no problem if Monet were a big, scary, people-eating, children-poisoning male? I disagree. Such an abomination as Monet, with or without boobs, needed to be taken down posthaste. All it would have taken was an attack similar to Tashigi's- a light slash across the back. If she really were male and Oda wrote the fight the same way, the course of events would seem very strange, and I would still definitely be questioning Zoro's decisions. Repeatedly defending against a dangerous enemy's attacks while gritting your teeth and rushing to make sure your friends don't get hurt, and then (twice) dodging the direct question of why you didn't fight back is not convincing.
Again I'll point back to Hyouzou. These type of arguments were nearly as relevant with him (ironically he also started by attacking Robin), except that he was content to keep Zoro as an opponent once the fight started. The thing is, I don't recall it being that big of a deal, or anything of a deal at all. The only complaints I remember were that people wanted Hyouzou to be more of a threat. There's clearly an element of sexism within the fanbase as well, but that much has always been obvious.
I would next cite wolfwood's point that Zoro's choice to toy with Monet (because she's weak?) was incredibly foolish. She'd shown herself to be quite dangerous (if not to him, then at least to, uh, everyone else), had gotten off a sneak attack on Robin, taken a chunk of fodder shoulder, and nearly ate Chopper's head. What if she had sent a snow clone through the vents and killed Nami while Zoro was busy being an arrogant asshole? And right after his big New-World-warning to Luffy? That line is now completely trivialized. This is out of character, or at the very least, demonstrating a very negative and relatively unprecedented aspect of his character. If this eventually leads to some great tragedy as a direct result of his cockiness, which by all means it should, then it will have been worth it (because everyone loves foreshadowing/build-up). This point isn't proof of sexism, but concerns the possible consequences of it, no matter what it's masquerading as.
Zoro has faith in his own strength as well as the strength of the crew. The crew has always been expected to be able to take care of themselves. Between Nami and Robin, they should rightfully be able to defend themselves as a group from whatever threat Monet poses to them. Defeating her is a different story though, that's Zoro's job.
Now, if it were someone like Camie trying to escape alone, that'd be a different story. The moment he acts that way in a situation like that, I expect some sort of backlash as a result. But to count on the crew to take care of themselves? That's a running theme.
Cabaji, Hachi, Mr. 1, Braham (the crucial non-swordsman exception), Ohm, T-Bone, Kaku, Ryuuma, Hyouzou, and countless piss-poor-worthless fodderlings got the honor of giant bleeding slashes across their bodies, delivered by Zoro via his blade or an XX Pound Hou (sure, Ryuuma actually caught on fire…). Ms. Monday got a head crush, the nun got the back o' the sword, and Monet's souvenir is a tiny scratch on the cheek. Were Monet male, that would be the lightest punishment Zoro has ever dealt to a male. Want to blame Oda for not creating strong females for Zoro to fight, so that he can still hide behind the weak/strong in-world excuse? Fine. Still, that is what it is, and I don't think Hyouzou was somehow leagues above Monet. Robby said it himself: "Zoro doesn't care to fight women." That's the unfortunate truth. At least he's a different flavor of chivalrous buffoon than Sanji, you say? Working off of bushido and arrogance (disdain, even?) instead of white-knighting and lust? The subtle, hierarchical Eastern brand to Sanji's flamboyant, romantic Western one? Somehow that's still not very satisfying.
Had Hyouzou escaped Zoro's finishing blow like Monet did, then he wouldn't have even gotten a scratch on the cheek. Monet got cut up in the end all the same, it just wound up coming from a different source. I don't think it's fair to blame Zoro's actions for that. But blaming Oda or Tashigi? That's fair game.
I also believe that Zoro doesn't like to cut women, and I have no problem with that because he doesn't take it to ridiculous extremes. If it comes down to it, he'll do it anyway. He doesn't have to like it. He should be allowed that much. Would you or I be any different?
@Urogue's final point: Would Zoro have dealt the final blow to Monet? Maybe. No way to know (so all we can really do is take him at his word), because Oda decided to not make it happen that way. This is as much about the author's decision re: plotting/character development as what we assume are the characters' motivations themselves, and about how those decisions by the author reflect on the tone of the story on the whole.
It's true that there's no way to be 100% sure about what would have happened in a hypothetical situation. But why wouldn't we take him at his word? Has he ever lied before? He's failed before, but it wasn't due to a lack of effort or some sort of dishonesty. Zoro has earned the right to be taken at his word based on however many hundreds of chapters he's been involved in. Tashigi is the opposite, especially when it comes to analyzing Zoro. She might even have a 100% failure rate in that regard.
Eh. Not lose as in "he lost the fight," but as in he lost honor or any respect that Tashigi had for him. He lost the metaphorical fight, even if he beat Monet physically, in Tashigi's mind. She seems like the sort of person to think like that.
I still disagree, though. It seems blatantly aimed in Monet's direction to me, but we can agree to disagree.
I think for myself, CCC, and a few others, it really comes down to Oda, not Zoro. If Oda really wanted the fact that Zoro is willing to cut down women just as equally as men (Monet v. Hyouzou) to come clear, and that it's their strength that Zoro cares about, then Oda really shouldn't have brought up gender at all or wasted time with Zoro's borderline condescending dialogue. Or if he was just toying around with Monet, it was weird to wrap that in the context of Tashigi's assertions (or have Tashigi pop in at all). If Oda wants Zoro to go easier on women unless he can't otherwise, then it is what it is even if it's dumb. I'm hoping one or the other is made more explicit in the next chapter.
Oda's at fault here, but Tashigi is at fault just as much. She's the one who's making such a huge deal out of it. Look, we weren't ever going to see the Tashigi subplot get any development without her/Oda making a big deal out of gender equality. That's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned. This was an inevitable eventuality ever since they first fought in Loguetown. Considering the fact that it had to happen somehow, I thought it went fine for the most part.
i agree with most of your points.except the coc part.coc has no relation with someone physically attacking someone.she was only intimidated when zoro started attacking.also,it was pointed out by tashigi what zoro used.it will become more clear with ccc's translation.if he had used coc,tashigi would have noticed.as it is pointed out by tashigi directly,i don't think there is any doubt that it is not haki.
That's nice that you feel that way I guess, but I don't really see your point. Anything about kingbition beyond intimidation and knocking out fodder is pretty much unknown. I don't see why Tashigi should be some sort of expert in it, nor do I see where she pointed out what Zoro used beyond some level of threat/intimidation/fear.
