@Monkey:
I'm atheist, and have never even been Christian let alone religious lol.
I never said you were religious. I actually assumed most of the people in this thread who were riding the New Pope wave were atheist who were impressed by him not being an asshole.
@Monkey:
Except elements of the organization have also been as rebellious as the flock against the topline.
Elements that in no way reflect the whole. Some have been defrocked. Given time rebellions may start a movement but right now they're just tiny pieces against the whole. Just elements, parts, if you will.
@Monkey:
None of which is your business to pass judgement on in terms of their relationship with the thing.
Long story short, the only people who want to enforce this world view that non-hardliners are lazy or not really into it are actual hardliners and obnoxious outsiders. It's a wonderful cool false dichotomy that helps two different kinds of idiots validate their world views.
That's the way religion works, especially Catholicism. Either you believe it or don't. There are no agnostic Catholics. So either you believe the bible, both of it's testaments, and take lessons and teachings as the word of God or you don't. I don't see how that is obnoxious. The thing about religion is if you start deciding that some parts are true and other parts are not true then the entire thing unravels. To say a part is not true is to say it's not the word of God, if that's not the word of god then what makes the part that you like the word of God. That's not a dichotomy that's the only logical line of thinking you can draw. If you have doubt's you're not actually a practicing Catholic.
@Monkey:
It's almost like that's why people like this current guy lol.
Again you don't get brownie points for doing things you ought to have been doing in the first place. New Pope isn't that great. He's just not an asshole. You don't get a star next to your name if you're pro-gay. You don't get stickers for thinking a woman's body is her own business. You don't get applause for treating poor people like they're still people. Why is that so hard to understand.
@Monkey:
Hey if I'm remembering who you are right, you're the guy who had a really terrible short sighted view of revolutions and government processes.
I'm noticing a pattern here where you have a really broken rudderless understanding of systems and how they change.
You don't see the movements in the direction, you just see the goal. And worse yet you attack the movements because they are not the goal.
I wish I could say you were a rare specimen.
You have your own patterns of discrediting a poster in order to discredit their argument. You attack people frequently and sadly your ostensible replies are enough to silence even the thought that you could possibly be wrong. If you want to make a comment that i'm failing to understand how systems of change work than make that argument in the context of this discussion, not a reference to a previous one.
However, with this particular topic you are not completely wrong. I see the church as reactive rather than proactive. If enough of their followers change their opinions the opinions of the church will also eventually change. But the opinion of the church is supposed to come with the Authority of God and they wield it as such. I am highly skeptical of any group that claims to know the intentions of a higher power, the sole creator and moral authority of the entire planet, that changes their opinions even slowly. A change means they were wrong. God can't be wrong. So even if tiny voices dissent from the whole the fact that they are saying the Church is wrong is more proof that the organization is a charade to me than a sign of progress.
@Monkey:
Nope that's American Evangelicals you're thinking of.
Are you operating under the false belief that only one religious organization can occupy a certain stance in a certain part of the world at time. There are many religious groups guilty of these actions, but the one on topic is Catholic.
@Monkey:
Is it? I've learned a lot on internal European prejudices recently.
I am not from Europe. I don't know why you think that. You can stop acting like you know where I'm from and therefore know how I think or what influences my thoughts because you don't and you don't.
@Monkey:
The pope is not literally infalliable.
Depends on the Pope in question according to the Pope in question but the Pope is supposed to be the successor to St. Peter who was tasked with leading the "one true" church. So basically he's supposed to be jesus's rep on earth. So if not infallible the idea is basically held that he speaks for the church and church is supposed to be repping God. I don't think the leaps from one idea to the other are that great.
@Monkey:
It's discussing a giant institution that isn't going anywhere and having massive influence getting better at a thing that would therefore positively impact shit you claim to care about.
Do.You.Possess.ANY.Perspective.
Again you're giving brownie points for them not being assholes. They were assholes from the get go. You know history better than most, they were atrocious. So now they're less monstrous. That doesn't stop them from being monsters. This is concept that is if you haven't already seen is a core part of my ideas of religion. It is a matter of perspective and we will not see eye to eye on it but since we're not debating facts and just opinions you can have yours and I can have mine.
@Monkey:
Christopher Hitchens is the patron saint of obnoxious college atheists. I'm gonna skip this one thank you!
And I think organized religion is one of the most idiotic things that humanity still clings to but that didn't stop me from listening to what those catholics had to say.