Chapter 417 "Asura" Discussion

[sabret00the]

@Buccaneer:

That seems a little biased as well. There was no acknowledgement of Bon or Wanze, and besides the principles of spinning and using fire, the technique is complete different. Sanji contains heat in his legs through his shoes, while Wanze just ignited a spark. And even if it was from the fire skates, that doesn't make his "stealing" any different than Zoro's. Despite the fact that Zoro always names his moves after animals and mythical creatures, and was clearly inspired by Asura and not Robin.

Whatever it was inspired by, i don't think there's anyone who would disagree that the Asura technique would be more inline with a robin ability over a Zoro ability, whipping two extra sets of arms and legs out of nowhere is incredibly cheap. And while you doubt the origin of Sanji's technique it's actually quite feasable, especially given that techniques like the __ pound cannon were just whipped out of nowhere without ever being demonstrated. I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that Sanji adapted the techniques of Wanze and Bon Clay and combined them, especially when we've seen Luffy adapt Croc's storm, Blueno's soru and other characters adapt other moods right before our eyes.

@Buccaneer:

Oh, and though Zoro said a bunch of swords doesn't make you better, he meant in effect. Not sure how to phrase it, but what he meant was that just having them wouldn't make Hachi better than him. Else he'd be a hypocrite, since he was originally a two sword fighter.

You're right, Zoro is a hypocrite, but he learn't the hard that that just because he had more swords it didn't mean he was a better fighter, it was about being a better fighting using the techniques of those swords and so he's kinda allowed to be a hyporcrite.

@Buccaneer:

Even up until that point. Like I said, unless it ends in a double KO, it wasn't even. A small margin is what allows someone to win, and until both have shown their best, you can't really say that.

We agree, it was Oda's writing over Zoro's ability to tip the scales. though to be honest, i'd say settle for saying that Kaku's swords weakened him. Either way they were EVEN up UNTIL a certain point.

[Leaf Cable]

Zoro's attack makes sense if you think about it: it involves his aura and 9 is a multiple of 3! Yes, I'm being simplistic about it. But, since Zoro is a tough and spiritual guy, it's understandable. He's still using his 3 sword style, he's just using his aura to give the illusion of 9 swords. If I remember correctly, Zoro meditates as well as exercises. I wouldn't hold it past him!
BTW, this is just my opinion so don't take it too seriously! I'm using a blade of my own: Occam's Razor! Nya ha!

[Refii]

Oh, and though Zoro said a bunch of swords doesn't make you better, he meant in effect. Not sure how to phrase it, but what he meant was that just having them wouldn't make Hachi better than him. Else he'd be a hypocrite, since he was originally a two sword fighter.

I'm sorry but that seems quite biased to me as well.
I always admired that Zoro had a logic to his 3 swords, he told Hatchi and all others using more swords that it was pointless. 3 swords were perfection, they created the perfect fit/mix to his fighting style. To change the amount of swords he uses is like changing the rules halfway into the game. I'm sorry but I was with him with the gorilla arms, I was with him with the bending swords, but the 9 swords I just refuse to support, just doesn't match the character.

[Itzal]

You guys…

Ever stopped to think that it could just be a visual metaphor for his stance/style?

I mean, I can't translate but it doesn't seem Kaku actually noticed he was physically holding nine swords.

Edit: To prove this further, he only used the ashura for 3 pages, to do a single attack. It didn't actually remain for an entire chapter or anything.

[Greg]

FOR EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO KNOW THE SECRET OF ASURA

! Just wait for a SBS in Volume 43. Whether it was the demon spirit of a sword or Zoro's own demonic soul manifesting itself, I'm sure Oda will come up with a complete lame-brained excuse that we can all laugh at and then continue to move on with our lives.

But for anyone complaining that it's not like Zoro to have such a move, please. While I can understand your feelings, it's also not like Luffy to shoot steam from his body or turn SD suddenly. Nor is it like Chopper to turn into a raging demon or Sanji's foot to catch fire.

This is just another step in their growth. Look at their progression up until now and as a whole you really have to step back and say, "Holy Fuck Oda, you roxorz." We knew going into this from chapter 347 and 348 that no one would be coming out of this the same person (reindeer) they were before. It also makes sense that at this point of their journey they're gaining abilities that truly put them on a path to be the best of their respective positions in the world.

So Zoro can cut steel and perform projectile moves. Great. How does that help him if his opponent is too fast or able to overwhelm him? Conjur up 6 more swords and become a concentrated one-man whirling dervish of death and destruction.

I'm VERY happy to see this kind of crazy shit. I think too often we look to real world physics or 'explanations' in detail of every move or event in a comic. But it's good to see that Oda can just relax and draw the awesome shit he wants to draw sometimes. Don't forget folks, this is a character concept he's been holding back since Little Garden where in CW2 we can see a rough sketch of a villain-like creature with a topknot and a strikingly similar 8-armed pose with swords. Just see zero's excellent quote in my sig for my thoughts on finding realism in manga. Because something is fantastic or unexplained, it doesn't make the story weak, it just boosts the fun your imagination can have with it. Stop thinking about the physics and just enjoy the fights. Even if you don't enjoy the fights I think we can all appreciate Oda's humor sprinkled throughout.

I mean come on. A swordsman who holds a sword is his mouth is fighting a giant giraffe-man who's antics with his neck would have caused a snake to shatter every bone in its body.

Great fight, VERY funny and loving the double-meanings on the attacks. Oda hasn't lost it. I dunno why I ever doubt his awesome power to come up with something out of left field to smash us all in the heads.

Oh, and I would be VERY surprised if it was straight-up Luffy VS Lucci from here on. Considering how many times he fought Croc and got turned away by Ener that is. Or maybe it will be a battle of comparable length to the others and the real villain has yet to show his/her face.

I mean even though I think he's fundamentally a 'good guy' wouldn't it be sweet to see Ao Kiji come crashing through a wall. That would make a beautiful bookend for the entire saga.

I mean, I can't translate but it doesn't seem Kaku actually noticed he was physically holding nine swords.

Not only does he see them, he compliments Zoro on it.

[Bounty1Berry]

Immediate aftermath of reading:

Worst titlepage in a long time… the bears just don't have a spark of life to them, and Usopp looks strange too.

Pasta Machine Kaku = love.

Ashura: I like it when Zoro gets all philosophical, but there'd better be a gpod explanation of what's going on.

[Voodzik]

Why does everyone want an explanation? I've never asked for a serious explanation in a fighting manga. Everyone did this with Firebird Star too. Who cares how? It's cool!

[Vanessa]

I just thought it ended up being 9 swords to overwhelm that hydra looking move Kaku busted out against him. Not gonna make any theories or whatnot, just going to say: Great end to a great fight.

Greg, for some reason reason I read that "Secret of Asura" as "Secret of Pasta". Don't know why, don't ask. :blink:

[Green Hair]

Taken from Stephen's translation:

@Stephen's:

Zoro: I may have three swords, but yours aren't as heavy as mine!!!

(Note: His use heavy also implies importance or dignity.)

Zoro didn't say a thing that three swords are better than six. He was simply refering to Hatchi's skill and the fact that he was a reckless swordsman. That hardly makes Zoro a hypocrite.

Also, from the same chapter:

@Stephen's:

Zoro: {In order to beat the one who isn't normal (Mihawk), I can't be normal myself!!!}

And with that, Zoro's Asura technique makes perfect sense.

Now, can we please cut this OOC crap and enjoy the rest of the story?

[Voodzik]

Let's hear it for greenhair.

Actually, I'd rather speculate wildly about Usopp's fight. He's got Kabuto. He HAS to get a serious fight, because he got the new awesome weapon (on top of all the character development stuff.) Chances are he'll fight before Luffy does, so he's gotta be gettin into it soon…

[onemoment]

This thread is depressing.

This is OP, why are so many people going "impossible," instead of thinking up reasonable explainations? This is a fantasy based story.

I personally think it's speed, others says its aura, meanwhile too many people are calling 'BS.' Hell, it will proably be explained in the next chapter.

If his arms just disappear, it's speed.

If they submerge into his body, he suddenly grew more arms and materialized 6 more swords!

Either way, Zoro used a move to KO Kaku. Let's get ready for chapter 418.

[valiantt]

A little late, but thanks for the chapter ^^

[Greg]

and Usopp looks strange too.

He does doesn't he ^O^ I'm glad I wasn't alone in that! But…I kinda like how it looks strange.

Greg, for some reason reason I read that "Secret of Asura" as "Secret of Pasta". Don't know why, don't ask.

Yes don't you see! The secret of pasta is really just a metaphor for the secret of the Asura. Like so many strands of pasta, such is the Asura with its so many arms and….yeah this isn't going anywhere but it was fun while it lasted.

Okay, back to work! Time to get kids out of a giant bounce house and fold it up!

[CosmicDebris]

@Voodzik:

Actually, I'd rather speculate wildly about Usopp's fight. He's got Kabuto. He HAS to get a serious fight, because he got the new awesome weapon (on top of all the character development stuff.) Chances are he'll fight before Luffy does, so he's gotta be gettin into it soon…

There's two threads about that, the Demise of Buster Call and Usopp's potential upgrades, might as well use them instead of the chapter thread.

[Chubbychez]

Someone else brought up this point, which I agree with. Asura isn't this random new technique that came out of nowhere. Don't forget that Kaku turned himself into an 8-headed hydra using speed. I think Zoro's Asura was just his way of saying to Kaku, "sure I can do that too, and I can do it better."

Finally let me just add that I really like that not everything in One Piece is explained, and that some things are left to the reader's imagination to figure out. And they can be figured out. The things that are left unexplained aren't just random. The clues are there. Readers just need to pick them out, then decide things for themselves.

It's great that Oda doesn't treat his readers like idiots, unlike in some other manga series (cough Naruto cough) where every motive, every action, every move is ridiculously explained ad nauseum either by the main characters themselves or by bystanders. When crap like that happens sometimes you're left asking, why would they freaking do that? They're in the middle of a freaking fight. Why would they take the time to stop in the middle of fight, and to tell the other(s) their next move, their motives, how a move works or some other crap like that? I swear, it's like some of these characters from those other manga lack common sense or something. ahem Apologies for the ranting. Just had to get that off my chest . Anyways, it's really a breath of fresh air to find a shonen manga author that actually respects his readers and their intelligence.

[Senshi Mizaka]

Zoro's "Transformation" was a bit of a WTF moment for me, but it's still awesome.

[Ashen]

@Senshi:

"Yo; I was a reindeer livin' out in 'da snow! But then this old geeza' doctor brought me into his home! After healin' my wounds, I felt real phat. Then, old docta' Hiruk gave me this blingin' hat! My family beat me, shunt me, but it's all tight. Because I'm doin' my doctor remedies all night. I look like freak with my Human Human fruit. But now I'm with some gangsta' pirates who like to steal loot! All the girls like my blue nose. Yeah; it's the way that I get the Record scratching. Usopp's the guy with all 'da glory. He's my main man with all his tight stories. Zolo's Santoryu skills are on ice. You betta' watch out, or you gonna get sliced! Sanji's the cook servin' up the main dish. Don't mess with him, unless that's your wish. Luffy's 'da captain with the straw hat! His Gum Gum skills are real real tight. Vivi's the princess of Alabasta. Now we gotta head there, and we betta' do it faster!"

Where.the.hell.did.you.get.this! It rocks!! :)

[Zongcai]

@Chubbychez:

Someone else brought up this point, which I agree with. Asura isn't this random new technique that came out of nowhere. Don't forget that Kaku turned himself into an 8-headed hydra using speed. I think Zoro's Asura was just his way of saying to Kaku, "sure I can do that too, and I can do it better."

BINGO. Well said, dude. Oda also gave us a pretty clear visual clue letting us know that's what was going on. Check it out:

So Kaku's swiping at him really fast there, and in the third panel, you see that silhouette of the Asura stance - except notice all the motion blur happening there. Basically (like someone said earlier) Zoro's moving his head and arms so fast it looks like they're hardly moving at all. In a way, you could kinda compare this to his fight with Mr. 1, in that Zoro was pushed to his absolute limit and forced to adapt, learning to cut steel in the process. So here with Kaku, he's being forced to adapt again to keep up with Kaku's crazy speed. That seems like a pretty plausible explanation, especially when you step back and remember that this is a comic about superpowered pirates who are currently fighting animal-themed secret agents on a perpetually-daylit island suspended over a hole in the ocean.

[Gadus]

Zoro's speedy deeds make Kaku bleed.

As story proceeds will we see Funkfried stampede?

…

Or perhaps Spandam's fight will become completely irr-elephant! Harhar. :getlost:

[CosmicDebris]

@Ashen:

Where.the.hell.did.you.get.this! It rocks!! :)

He wrote it himself. ^^

BTW, regarding Usopp looking strange on the title page, maybe Oda is getting out of practice drawing Usopp's face after drawing Sogeking for so long. XD

[joekido the Second]

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[joekido the Second]

@CosmicDebris:

He wrote it himself. ^^

BTW, regarding Usopp looking strange on the title page, maybe Oda is getting out of practice drawing Usopp's face after drawing Sogeking for so long. XD

Can someone post the large pic of that please because the OP MSN site is down and I don't have my desktop computer right now.

Yeah, since last year Oda's been drawing Usopp with a Sogeking's mask. This explains why Oda had his mask fell off and why he had him take it off while talking to Oimo and Karsee, and why he did a split-panel to show half of Usopp's bare face. He is sure having problems drawing Usopp now. Time to take off the mask Oda

[Bounty1Berry]

OT: New funny 417-related avatar. Just wanted to share. The concept makes him so much more deadly, yet hilarious… he's deadlarious!

[thesamuraipanda]

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[thesamuraipanda]

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[thesamuraipanda]

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[tony-kun]

zoros does not have a power-up, but something interesting brought up was his eyes having legendary decent, by kaku, but his eyes always get this way when he gets serious. but if u think about it, zoro already got his power-ups in the alabasta arc.

the ashura was just another one of zoros techniques, but kaku got extremely shaken by zoros eyes.

and I thought everyone knew zoro was moving his arms reall fast(a smooth waving motion)

If sanjis technique was foreshadowed by his spinning attack on blueno, than this was foreshadowed by the ebima yonenzu onigiri. Hes just moving his arms(and head) in a fast fluid motion.

I hope people didnt think he grew four arms and 2 faces(with a sword in each)

…..and if that is what oda meant, one piece is dead to me.:getlost:

[Voodzik]

@Ashen:

Where.the.hell.did.you.get.this! It rocks!! :)

Sounds like he wrote it himself. In a good way. Of course, i can't let that slide without responding with my OWN original chopper-based musical piece:

Chopper the blue-nosed reindeer
Knew how to write a doctor’s note
If you found yourself hurtin’
he could come and set your bones
But all the other reindeer,
used laugh and call him names,
They never let poor chopper
join his herd in reindeer games
Then one day when things looked bleak
Luffy came to say
Chopper with your reindeer might,
Let’s kick Wapol’s ass tonight
So Wapol got a beatin’
And they shouted out with glee
Chopper the blue nosed reindeer,
You’ve joined Monkey D. Luffy!

[ElZacko]

@Voodzik:

Sounds like he wrote it himself. In a good way. Of course, i can't let that slide without responding with my OWN original chopper-based musical piece:

Chopper the blue-nosed reindeer
Knew how to write a doctor’s note
If you found yourself hurtin’
he could come and set your bones
But all the other reindeer,
used laugh and call him names,
They never let poor chopper
join his herd in reindeer games
Then one day when things looked bleak
Luffy came to say
Chopper with your reindeer might,
Let’s kick Wapol’s ass tonight
So Wapol got a beatin’
And they shouted out with glee
Chopper the blue nosed reindeer,
You’ve joined Monkey D. Luffy!

That made me laugh thats a pretty good job.

[Senshi Mizaka]

@Ashen:

Where.the.hell.did.you.get.this! It rocks!! :)

I wrote it myself. On the 4Kids thread, we were talking about what Chopper would sound like. Someone mentioned how they hoped they wouldn't make him sound ghetto. So then, I made up that 4Kids would turn him into a rapper.

edit: Whoops, looks like Cosmic already beat me to the explanation.

[stephen]

I put up my script.
There is a "fun" "surprise" for those who recognize it.

[taboo]

This chapter's been out for two days and I didn't even notice. o__o

Zoro is awosme.

[Phlemingo]

As always, nice to read your trans'. But..
@stephen:

Kaku: {What was that…?!! I could have sword for an instant…
He looked like a demon god with three faces and six arms!!!}

Spelling mistake?

[taboo]

returns after reading much of the thread Good golly miss molly… why do I read these things...

[KamenRiderNeko]

drool
hottest. spread. ever.

[stephen]

@Phlemingo:

As always, nice to read your trans'. But..

Spelling mistake?

Okay… two fun surprises!

[Shitsunen]

I'm pretty sure the "Asura" is just an illusion. Kaku jumped into the air and started spinning to gain more power for his Amanedachi and while Kaku was boasting about his attack Zoro started to move his swords faster and faster to create a barrier to block the Amanedachi and the illusion of having so many swords and limbs. Zoro charged forward, broke through the Amanedachi and attacked Kaku who was defenseless and stood triumphantly as he slowed his swords down..

You can see when he introduces the technique his swords are in no stance.

It seemed like a way to end the battle with a bang. After having to appear being a multi-limbed demon just to block Kaku's random barrage of sword attacks, it would be lame if Zoro blocked his attack without something big to go out on. It just wouldn't be stylish if Zoro dully ran through Kaku's most powerful attack and killed/KO'ed Kaku in the One Piece fashion spread.

Instead he did it seeming like he sprouted more limbs and heads, like a badass, heh heh…

Besides this wouldn't be the first time Zoro appeared to have more then two arms even in this battle. When he does single sword style to cut through Kaku's tekkai, he spins the sword and he has three arms, three sleeves, and no blur just like the this chapter ends... except less arms and sleeves.

That's my opinion anyway.

[Zede05]

Of course it's an illusion. Kaku said that it's an illusion created by Zoro's ki/chi/aura/spirit. It was even in the original text spoiler, so why are some of you still indecisive about it now?

And for the few of you saying "oh no, that ki thing's impossible and stupid!" Keep in mind that this idea has been embedded in Asian martial arts literature for a long time. If people in Crouching Tiger can fly and people in Shaolin Soccer can do all that crazy stuff by using their spirit/ki, what's wrong with Zoro doing Asura? It's called fiction for a reason.

[MasterDee]

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[MasterDee]

After having digested the chapter for a bit, and after having read stephen's script, I’m beginning to doubt that the Ashura technique is speed based (even though I initially believed that it was based on speed :unsure: ). Though there’s some evidence present for it being speed based, when you think about it, it does seem a little ridiculous to imagine Zoro shaking his head and flapping his arms up and down while running towards his opponent***. It just doesn’t seem very swordsman-like. Aside from the humorous images it conjures up, creating speed-based illusions to fool your opponents with seems like such a waste of energy, when really a quick unseen strike would have sufficed. On the other hand, I really like the idea that others brought up, of Zoro beating Kaku at his own game by ‘out-speeding’ him.

Still, I think there’s stronger evidence pointing towards the technique being ‘spirit’ based. We have Zoro himself calling his own technique a ‘Demon Aura’ or ‘Demon Spirit’ technique. Then we have Kaku questioning whether ‘spirit’ is the cause behind the illusion. Two very strong pieces of evidence IMHO.

Even though I’m leaning towards a ‘spirit’ explanation behind the technique, that doesn’t mean I don’t have misgivings about. I still feel uneasy with the possible repercussions of the presence of fighter ‘spirit’ on the story. Hopefully it’s only limited to projecting illusions, and does not become a source for new “jutsus.” I also hope it’s not Zoro’s spirit alone that’s projecting these illusions, but a combination of his spirit with the spirit of one of his swords that’s the cause behind the illusions. That way it’s something that’s unique only to swordsmen. I’d rather not see other Straw Hats like Sanji or Luffy projecting spirits too. Having just one Straw Hat doing it is enough for me.

All in all, I must say, I can’t help but feel a little disappointed with this new technique of Zoro’s. Even though I tried liking it at first by exploring all possible explanations behind the technique, in the end, I guess I just have too many problems with it. Maybe I’ll feel better about it once I see this thing animated. Perhaps it’s something that’s better appreciated, and better explained when seen animated.

That’s all I really have to say on the matter. I’ll just have to be patient with this, and see how Oda handles Zoro’s future development. That is to say we really don’t know how large a role ‘spirit’ will play, that is if it plays any role at all, in Zoro’s progression towards becoming the ultimate swordsman.

*** In the middle panel on the second to last page, is that really Zoro keeping the illusion stable while running towards Kaku? Or is just Zoro making quick work of the Amanedachi, and what we see are just after images of Zoro’s arms from slicing and dicing the Amanedachi into mist. Perhaps things will become clear once this move is animated.

[Shitsunen]

MasterDee, it wouldn't be him flapping his arms and head around randomly. The idea would be that he'd create a barrier and encircle himself with his swords so he could run through Amanedachi and attack Kaku. And if it were speed base, that would just be like a non-blurred still image of him running towards Kaku I guess….

[sabret00the]

Well Stephen proves it, go go gadget arms or maybe all those fanstory things are true of him having an affair with Robin, because he seems to be able to do what no man can do.

@Stephen's:

Zoro: Hahh.
Idiot…
Hahh.
You're the one who ought to give up.
Demon Spirit...!! "Nine-Sword Style"
"Asura"

@Stephen's Ch417 Trans:

Zoro: Suffering is welcome
on the path of carnage.
"ASURA"
"ICHIBUGIN"!!!! (One Mist Silver)

Basically Oda made it up as he went along for Zoro.

[Welkin]

Someone before asked for a rejoin of the last 2 pages, and I rejoined them for myself and for fun anyways, and I decided why not share if anyone wants my rejoin using the MQ pages. Putfile would not let me upload files (kept having cgi errors) and photobucket resizes the images, but I figured smaller is better then nothing if noone minds. I did not clean it, just joined the pages.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h133/akuwelkin/zororules.jpg

If anyone knows a way other then putfile to share full sized images please let me know if you want the full sized version (1664x1200 instead of 832x600).

[Kuroneko]

Wow, when I saw the last scene I thought "What the…?" and I'm still thinking it. I guess it's just a surrealistic moment thanks to Oda's wild imagination.

BTW Senshi, I like the Chopper rap.

[Cr4zy]

I have a little theory for how Oda gave Zoro this move. I was looking through Color Walk 2, and I found this sketch picture of a guy with 6 arms. I'm just thinking he probably just went back through his sketches to give any ideas of a Zoro move.
Here's the .jpg pic: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/zapetou/Zoronewmovetheory.jpg

[Greg]

I was looking through Color Walk 2, and I found this sketch picture of a guy with 6 arms. I'm just thinking he probably just went back through his sketches to give any ideas of a Zoro move.

http://apforums.net/showpost.php?p=295352&postcount=151

[Mog]

@stephen's:

(Note: Asura is the name of a race of deities in Hinduism, Buddhism and even Zoroastrianism (as Ahura).

What the…. Jesus. Your level of research is insane, stephen.

What's even more insane is the mere thought of that being an intentional reference by Oda.

[Voodzik]

@stephen's:

(Note: Asura is the name of a race of deities in Hinduism, Buddhism and even Zoroastrianism (as Ahura). In Japanese the word is often spelled "Ashura.")

I hate to be nitpicky, but I seem to remember reading that they were "demons of battle" and the great enemies of the gods; actually I take it back, you could call a demon a "diety."

[CHiZZoPs]

Mr. Bushido is following the way of the sword, a path more spiritual than physical. What is so hard to accept? Moves like these give us a perfect window into his inner development as a swordsman. Of course this only applies to him.

Luffy's not going to do any gomu gomu no soul–unless you count his "Afro Luffy" moment.

[Raoul]

I just tought of something:

Think about Luffy's gomu gomu no gatling gun and gomu gomu no storm…