there must not exist a lot of well written shonens in the world with such rules.
Hero power up by willpower or friendship is the most common trope ever. One Piece has used it a lot already. How does it become bad writing for Kaidou ?
This cannot be! Or any derivative of that is like the number one thing a shounen villain says when he starts to get his asskicked
@Kaido:
Good authors set up villains who are "invincible" in order for the main characters to find a way to make them not invincible. Anything else doesn't make the story work.
That's exactly the problem with Kaido. A good major villain needs to have this kind of "aura of invincibility". Actually I don't really care anymore whether the scabbards inflict a wound because that aura was destroyed long ago.
To clarify, there are two types of One Piece main villains. Those who are main villains of something bigger than an arc (like Crocodile, Enel, Lucchi) and those who are not (like Mr. 3, Wapol). The latter doesn't that aura, the former however has to have it at all costs. Some cases may be debatable, but we can agree that Kaido is one of these major bosses and therefore needs this aura, right?
However, now comes the big problem with Kaido, that is, the crucial key point narrative-wise is: It's perfectly fine to beat the shit out of that enemy power-level wise, as long as you as author somehow manage to leave that aura intact.
In his intro, Kaido is portrayed as someone who gets beaten and overpowered all the time. On a power level standpoint, Kaido isn't anything that special in his introduction. However, there's still the aspect of him being unkillable, and thus making suicide his hobby, as well as the 1 vs 1 remark - which is crucial as instead of tarnishing the aura, it actually helps increasing it. The "hype through defeat" trope executed masterfully.
Contrast that to the Oden vs. Kaido battle. Kaido losing really is no problem BY ITSELF. However, the scene itself is just poorly written. It completely lacks anything to keep the aura of invincibility intact. Instead we got characters like the old hag whose sole narrative purpose is to blatantly cover up Oda's poor writing. Oda wants to brute-force into us, what an honorable warrior Kaido is by killing the hag offscreen later on, but it just doesn't work at all on a narrative level. Compare that to Luffy vs. Katakuri. Show, don't tell. Unlike Kaido we are actually shown that Katakuri IS a honorable person.
Kaido is piss-weak!
Not because of powerlevel stuff, but because of the poor choice of actions he himself had chosen. Well-written characters are made by their motivation and desire and, that's the important point, the willpower, strength and resolve they are going to muster in order to achieve that goal (or these goals as motivation and desire may vary). That's why Kaido is weak. Because despite claiming to seek a fair and honorable battle, he showed little to no resolve to actually reach that goal in the case of Oden. If his words are supposed to be more than a lip service, why didn't Kaido demand Oden to deliver his second blow instead of suckerpunching him.
Because Kaido is a weak-minded piece of shit, lacking any needed aura of invincibility, which completely does not deserve this major villain role at all.
Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
lacking any needed aura of invincibility
May I ask, how long have you had this feeling about Kaido?
Even though I disagree with Joy Boy and find his weird, almost tribal-ish "this is how it should be" act silly I do find it cool how differently people can react in this fandom.
For me, the past couple two chapters has showed some of the best writing/art/everything from Oda.
He has made me like both Scabbards and Kaido a whole lot more.
Personally, I have no issue with Kaido, in fact, I'm far more fascinated about what goes on in his head now.
Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship
Personally, I have no issue with Kaido, in fact, I'm far more fascinated about what goes on in his head now.
Yeah totally! He seems much more 3 dimensional now.
May I ask, how long have you had this feeling about Kaido?
My feelings of that aura started to crumble at the time Kaido showed his dragon form, albeit very slowly. Because I felt the form was a little bit wasted. (kouch explains it more detailed somewhere in the spoiler or chapter topic.)
Really and irretrievably gone were they at the Oden vs. Kaido battle.
My feelings of that aura started to crumble at the time Kaido showed his dragon form, albeit very slowly. Because I felt the form was a little bit wasted. (kouch explains it more detailed somewhere in the spoiler or chapter topic.)
Really and irretrievably gone were they at the Oden vs. Kaido battle.
Okay. Because I knew that I felt that way in 2015 when he first appeared and had a giant-ass X scar on his chest.
The whole thing was so satisfying. Kaidos confidence in his toughness, the scabbards putting their entire beings into that one moment and channeling the will of Wano into their blade points and Kaido slowly realizing what is about to happen. Like realistically they did little beyond pierce the skin, but the symbolic weight of drawing any blood from Kaido is so huge. You feel it in your heart how welldeserved that small win was, that they got to start of Kaidos fall with that little show of will
Instead we got characters like the old hag whose sole narrative purpose is to blatantly cover up Oda's poor writing.
I'm not even going to bother with the rest of the post, since everyone else is already discussing that and it's a matter of personal interpretation. But when you throw a statement like this out there, you better back it up properly. Otherwise, tone down your smug literary critic persona. The old couple was introduced to explain Orochi's origins and drive. To help this weak little piece of crap rise from misery to power through the use of trickery and previously known devil fruit powers (which was pretty cool for me, seeing powers we are familiar with being used by other characters in different ways!). So, care to explain how the old hag's "sole narrative purpose is to blatantly cover up Oda's poor writing"? Because I have no idea what you are talking about.
If his words are supposed to be more than a lip service, why didn't Kaido demand Oden to deliver his second blow instead of suckerpunching him.
Because it was a split second distraction on Oden's part that led to him getting knocked out. I don't know what you want Kaido to do there. Using that fight/moment when someone else intervenes to say Kaido is weak-minded doesn't make any sense to me.
The whole thing was so satisfying. Kaidos confidence in his toughness, the scabbards putting their entire beings into that one moment and channeling the will of Wano into their blade points and Kaido slowly realizing what is about to happen. Like realistically they did little beyond pierce the skin, but the symbolic weight of drawing any blood from Kaido is so huge. You feel it in your heart how welldeserved that small win was, that they got to start of Kaidos fall with that little show of will
Fuck yes! It was straight from some awesome and trippy samurai movie.
Another absurd theory,like always from me. But hey,i like to dream big!
We know that Oda is using many japanese legends in this arc: like Gyukimaru who is a fox,and the demon of rage changing Denjiro's face.
Now,is there maybe a Japanese legend where the soul of a dead man possesses the body of someone alive? What if Yamato was a totally different person before she saw Oden's execution,but then Oden's soul got inside her body,and now she hosts him? So there is more than just admiration for Oden in Yamato,she is actually really partially him! And maybe Oden's soul will leave her body at the end of the arc,because its purpose on the Earth is accomplished now,and he can rest in peace (if such legends exist,maybe thats the meaning of the legend 
)
Yeah totally! He seems much more 3 dimensional now.
I've been interested in how Kaidou thinks since clubbed down Luffy. He ordered his minions to block the info of Luffy being from the outside, which told me he was mindful. And these little tid bits throughout the arc up to this point makes me want a flashback so bad lol
Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship
I think both sides should take a leeway here.
I came in reading with the point of view that whoever is against Oda's writing of Kaidou is overdoing it.
But now that I read through the posts and really think about it, yeah Oda did messed up a little.
And that's fine because as you write a character, how he turn out could be different from how you initially intended him to be.
In this case, I have to agree that Kaidou at his core is just a huge douche.
All that honourary and respecting his opponent crap flies out the window when you look at his actions during dire moments.
He's a dragon and he's been hyped up but he's not supposed to be honourable. The samurais are supposed to be honourable and they are his foil.
The reason why he so desire for chaos and to fight someone strong is because he has been on an ego trip for as long as he can remember.
I think any discussion is only possible if people acknowledge that he is in no way supposed to be a Katakuri or heck even a Rob Lucci villain in terms of honourable or respectability or just for the "fight"..
I can throw a few examples off my head why but this is going to be longer.
But let's not downplay the samurais and over hype Kaidou's strength too.
The things that have been stated about him has been factual thus far and the power levels were mostly consistent.
In the argument of how come they can hurt him but Luffy can't, well Luffy wasn't actually punching the scar was he?
And you can't say that a few punches from Luffy is stronger than Nine of the scabbards.
The Samurais have been said to be very very strong. So I really don't see the issue here.
Striking an already established wound is completely different from overwhelming him.
Anyway, I feel that the inconsistency in his character and his power level is largely because of Oden(and to a certain extend the samurais) wank.
My unpopular opinion has always been that I've never really enjoyed Oden as a character and could find a list of flaws in his writing and his character.
If Oda could just write it as Oden had lost as it is, this entire problem could be avoided and Kaidou character would have felt a lot more organic.
And no, I don't disagree that the old witch and the barrier barrier guy was not plot devices. They were in every sense of the definition of plot device.
Okay. Because I knew that I felt that way in 2015 when he first appeared and had a giant-ass X scar on his chest.
Really ? All I felt from the scar back then is that who could possibly do that to this badass. He was still invincible. But then the Oden fight happens. And then this.
As I've repeatedly said there was nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with Oden scarring Kaido. It's how the fight concluded that leaves a sour taste. But the thing with the scabbards is that, they have never been shown to be capable of doing what they did. They couldn't even put down Jack. Kinemon was dumb founded at Zoro's strength. Kiku likes to act more like a weak woman than fight. The list goes on.
I've been interested in how Kaidou thinks since clubbed down Luffy. He ordered his minions to block the info of Luffy being from the outside, which told me he was mindful. And these little tid bits throughout the arc up to this point makes me want a flashback so bad lol
And his alcoholism! I mean the dude is clearly in a lot of emotional pain.
And his alcoholism! I mean the dude is clearly in a lot of emotional pain.
Ah I can't forget about the alcoholism and wanting a glorious death part either!
Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship
Ah I can't forget about the alcoholism and wanting a glorious death part either!
Yeah the dude is fascinating
Didn't Dog and Cat take turns fighting Jack and got nuked by poison gas instead of tag teaming him?
How is that weak? I could easily place them above Franky level.
Also, didn't Ashura Dohji held his own against Jack and was nerfed because he was having a sentimental pstd or something?
I think Kiku intentionally cutting that one sumo guy's hair off cleanly was supposed to be a moment where you go "oh that could be his head..".
Why is her character quirk somehow an alarming call that she is weak?
I got nothing against the Kinemon example except for maybe cutting down a colossal bigger-than-giants monster is at least worthy of a reaction.
Didn't Dog and Cat take turns fighting Jack and got nuked by poison gas instead of tag teaming him?
How is that weak? I could easily place them above Franky level.
Also, didn't Ashura Dohji held his own against Jack and was nerfed because he was having a sentimental pstd or something?
I think Kiku intentionally cutting that one sumo guy's hair off cleanly was supposed to be a moment where you go "oh that could be his head..".
Why is her character quirk somehow an alarming call that she is weak?I got nothing against the Kinemon example except for maybe cutting down a colossal bigger-than-giants monster is at least worthy of a reaction.
Inu was clear. They couldn't do shit to Jack. Jack just got pissed and used the gas. It wasn't like he was losing.
I'm not saying Ashura or cat and dog are weak. I'm saying they are not enough to cut Kaido.
Because Kiku was also never hyped as a strong scabbard like some others.
Kinemon has been around Oden, legendary samurais all over and he got awed by Zoro. How is that good ?
@zeltrax225, the only ones trying to say he should be like Katakuri are the ones criticizing the fight to begin with. I agree that Kaido is not Katakuri, nor has Oda ever tried to write him as much. Despite having his own personal code when it comes to his fights, he clearly has no issue being cruel and/or cunning when the situation calls for it. But at the same time, there's clearly a nuance there, where he didn't end up being the big brute most thought he was. We see it in how he treats Momo. We see it in how he states that he'd respect any of Orochi's samurai that would dare to fight him and his crew. And so on.
@Joy:
I'm saying they are not enough to cut Kaido.
Kaido was actually wondering the same thing! It's in the story! Wild!
Joyboy,
Since you keep bringing up Jack.
I mean if 2 scabbards roughly equals to one Jack.
There were 4 jacks stabbing Kaidou at one weak spot at the very same time.
Even if it isn't a critical hit, it will likely hurt.
Does the math not add up here.
Also I'll give it to you that 4 jacks combined can't beat Kaidou but can they hurt Kaidou if they attack the same place at the same time?
How's that not possible
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@zeltrax225, the only ones trying to say he should be like Katakuri are the ones criticizing the fight to begin with. I agree that Kaido is not Katakuri, nor has Oda ever tried to write him as much. Despite having his own personal code when it comes to his fights, he clearly has no issue being cruel and/or cunning when the situation calls for it. But at the same time, there's clearly a nuance there, where he didn't end up being the big brute most thought he was. We see it in how he treats Momo. We see it in how he states that he'd respect any of Orochi's samurai that would dare to fight him and his crew. And so on.
So we are in agreement he is a piece of shit but the rest of the thread does not agree that he is not invincible.
Look, how is a scum ever invincible in anyway possible?
If a scum has to resort to other methods to be the "strongest" then most likely the title of the strongest is flawed in the first place.
Or it's a perception that he gained through scummy means.
THAT is kaidou.
Joyboy,
Since you keep bringing up Jack.
I mean if 2 scabbards roughly equals to one Jack.
There were 4 jacks stabbing Kaidou at one weak spot at the very same time.
Even if it isn't a critical hit, it will likely hurt.
Does the math not add up here.
Also I'll give it to you that 4 jacks combined can't beat Kaidou but can they hurt Kaidou if they attack the same place at the same time?
How's that not possible–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So we are in agreement he is a piece of shit but the rest of the thread does not agree that he is not invincible.
Look, how is a scum ever invincible in anyway possible?
If a scum has to resort to other methods to be the "strongest" then most likely the title of the strongest is flawed in the first place.
Or it's a perception that he gained through scummy means.THAT is kaidou.
4 Jack level characters would absolutely wreck the scabbards. And the scabbards don't have Jack level characters.
Power levels are fun and cool!
Okay I'm done good talk. Maybe we'll find other agreement other chapters or somewhere else.
@Joy:
Inu was clear. They couldn't do shit to Jack. Jack just got pissed and used the gas. It wasn't like he was losing.
I'm not saying Ashura or cat and dog are weak. I'm saying they are not enough to cut Kaido.
Because Kiku was also never hyped as a strong scabbard like some others.
Kinemon has been around Oden, legendary samurais all over and he got awed by Zoro. How is that good ?
I think there's some other factor in their sudden and unexpected ability to stab Kaido that we're missing.
He mentioned that his wound was hurting and asked if the scabbards used Oden's Ryuo, so maybe there's some sort of connection between them putting their lives on the line to exercise the will they inherited from Oden and the scar left by the physical manifestation of Oden's will (Haki literally means willpower).
Why did Stephen translate "dawn" as "daybreak" in Kinnemon's speech?
I think because he’s only referring to Wano in general
The Dawn/Daybreak for Wano is different to the Dawn of the world
beware
So we are in agreement he is a piece of shit but the rest of the thread does not agree that he is not invincible.
Look, how is a scum ever invincible in anyway possible?
If a scum has to resort to other methods to be the "strongest" then most likely the title of the strongest is flawed in the first place.
Or it's a perception that he gained through scummy means.
THAT is kaidou.
Of course he's not invincible, he was literally introduced with the narrator telling us that. That's why I never got the whole fuss in the first place. To each their own at this point…
As for him being the strongest through potential scumminess, that would be pure conjecture. At the very least, I certainly wouldn't look at the Oden fight as an example of that given that someone intervened without his permission.
I think there's some other factor in their sudden and unexpected ability to stab Kaido that we're missing.
He mentioned that his wound was hurting and asked if the scabbards used Oden's Ryuo, so maybe there's some sort of connection between them putting their lives on the line to exercise the will they inherited from Oden and the scar left as a physical manifestation of Oden's will (Haki literally means willpower).
This is something Oda has to explain instead of us arguing that it might be this "factor" that played a role in hurting Kaido. Which I doubt he will.
While I don't think scabbards hurting Kaido ruined anything because I understand Oda's intent behind it is explained with the ryuo thing , this is also a reason why I'm not fond of haki.
A furious G4 Luffy couldn't even scratch Kaido after a long beating but the likes of Kinemon (who never looked impressive) can pierce him because of "better" haki. Meh
I understand that it isn't because A > B and B > C that A > C but haki is too convenient imo
Here is my hope. First the animal patrol and Kawa go hard on him, using sulong to really beat his ass. Then the brothers and raizo get to to their thing shooting, stabbing and ninjaing him a bit. Then Kaido gets angry and starts to build up his breath beam, which Kinemon slices into nothing with his fire cutting. Then the three samurai dudes lay into him hard with their slashes. After or during Kaido can club smash any of them
I hope Kinemom slices it in two just to be able to protect the others than outright slicing it to nothing. I think that would downplay Kaidos dragon blast too much maybe. If Kinemon slashes through enough to save and protect the others the beam still does damage to the surroundings creating a quite visceral double spread
Why the hell are you guys still continuing this argument? It's pointless.
Just wait for next chapter.
@Joy:
Jack could take on Inu and Neko and the entire minks and he was perfectly fine. What’s impressive about that ? Kin’emon was shitting himself when Zoro was cutting Pica. Kiku was just 10 chapters ago someone who couldn’t even cut a fat guy. And so on and so forth
Oda failed with this shit again. I don’t understand why you guys defend bad writing
Except in this case there's 8 of them. Or 9? Unimportant…
There's a number of problems with this arc, but this skirmish now isn't one. Certainly not a disaster you make it seem.
While I don't think scabbards hurting Kaido ruined anything because I understand Oda's intent behind it is explained with the ryuo thing , this is also a reason why I'm not fond of haki.
A furious G4 Luffy couldn't even scratch Kaido after a long beating but the likes of Kinemon (who never looked impressive) can pierce him because of "better" haki. Meh
I understand that it isn't because A > B and B > C that A > C but haki is too convenient imo
I mean what Luffy did was like punching a guy wearing a bike helmet in the head. Nothing of that connected with the actual Kaido.
Power scalers are the worst thing in the one piece fandom.
We all know that without Ashura Doji, the scabbards couldn't have hurt Kaido in that chapter.
Also possibly Denjiro and Kawamatsu who got way stronger too.
Ashura Doji is stronger(or same level) than Jack.
You can tell it's break week.:ninja:
@Joy:
And Luffy who’s stronger than any of the scabbards failed to hurt Kaido but the scabbards somehow did
Nonsense
You can't do math, can you?
The 9 Scabbards together is probably too much for Luffy since it includes the likes of Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Izo, Denjiro and Ashura Doji, who can all fight people like Zoro and Jack to an extent. One is even an Emperor Commander.
So yeah, the 9 Scabbards together hurting Kaido is not a problem due to the shonen principle of power of friendship allowing group attacks to be stronger. More than half are at or near the level of Emperor Commanders too, so it adds up.
Again, amateur.
@Joy:
This is something Oda has to explain instead of us arguing that it might be this "factor" that played a role in hurting Kaido. Which I doubt he will.
How can you have read almost a thousand chapters of One Piece and not understand how they were able to pierce him. He doesn't need to explain it and shouldn't.
4 Jack level characters would absolutely wreck the scabbards. And the scabbards don't have Jack level characters.
Except for the fact that Nekomamushi and Inuarushi and Ashura Doji clearly are meant to be seen as being at his level. If he has anything obvious over them it's his insane endurance, which we can attribute to being an Ancient Zoan user.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
While I don't think scabbards hurting Kaido ruined anything because I understand Oda's intent behind it is explained with the ryuo thing , this is also a reason why I'm not fond of haki.
A furious G4 Luffy couldn't even scratch Kaido after a long beating but the likes of Kinemon (who never looked impressive) can pierce him because of "better" haki. Meh
I understand that it isn't because A > B and B > C that A > C but haki is too convenient imoI think the scene was framed pretty great. This is their moment. Luffy literally stepped aside to let them have this moment against an opponent he wants to beat too, because he understands (having heard Oden's story) how much more getting this first blow and having this opportunity means to them. That they actually pierced his skin is the proof of it. For me this is recontextualizing some of the things we know about Haki in a positive way, rather than a negative one. I'm not as positive on this, but I think there's an argument to be made that the surprise of the situation and the truth of the prophecy and what Oden's will showing up means to Kaido maybe made him vulnerable for just a second, just like Oden was vulnerable when Momo was captured.
I think because he’s only referring to Wano in general
The Dawn/Daybreak for Wano is different to the Dawn of the world
Well, the world "dawn" has been used in Wano thus far, like in Toki's speech.
The moon is still not destroyed?
Ok, I'll come back later.
The moon is still not destroyed?
Ok, I'll come back later.
Why are you named after an Australian insecticide?
Why are you named after an Australian insecticide?
Roughly 15-16 years ago I was playing some game in a pc gaming place, and I named myself Mortein so that when I got several kills in a row I would write Multi Insect Killer.
Which would look like this:
Mortein: Multi Insect Killer
Which was also what they would say on the commercial for Mortein on the TV back then.
So I liked the name and decided to keep it.
Well, the world "dawn" has been used in Wano thus far, like in Toki's speech.
I guess this translation does only create confusion
beware
Except in this case there's 8 of them. Or 9? Unimportant…
There's a number of problems with this arc, but this skirmish now isn't one. Certainly not a disaster you make it seem.
Yup i agree. Scabbards are hella strong guys.
Neko inu were never defeated by jack, we know that. And they fighting in turn were due to the limit of time, you know the day and night silly rule.
Kinemon was never a higher level swordsman than zoro. If zoro is an 8, kin is 6.5.not a bad swordsman too of course.
While denjiro, ashura and kawa, we know them as the scabbards strongest. They're about the same level with inu neko, i think.
Almost all the stronger scabbards were the ones that did not cross the time gate, obviously, the reason for it is more training years, just as another shounen would.
I guess this translation does only create confusion
Yeah, they should stick to dawn.
It makes perfect sense that dawn would come to the land of the rising sun first, before the rest of the world.
Roughly 15-16 years ago I was playing some game in a pc gaming place, and I named myself Mortein so that when I got several kills in a row I would write Multi Insect Killer.
Which would look like this:
Mortein: Multi Insect Killer
Which was also what they would say on the commercial for Mortein on the TV back then.
So I liked the name and decided to keep it.
Oh yeah, classic AP forums stuff during manga breaks.
Quite interesting actually.
Im happy now Kaido can have legendary battle. He had been lost to Yonko and Marine but no one can hurt him (meaning no single of them have AdCoA). But now he will get legendary fight with Raizo, Kiku and Kinemon, an individual who stronger than Yonko and Marine combined and have AdCoA just like super Oden :wub:
Btw the art this is beautiful, espesially the rooftop scen with moon in the background
