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Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
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@Cyan:
America is being run right now by Goku if you think about it.
They also both have a large group of fans who cling to a false characterization that dates back to the 90s and when faced with the actual reality of the man they reject it and just bury their heads in the sand. Uncanny.
One's a little lacking in the charm department though.
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"IF YOU’RE A MAN YOU DON’T CRY ABOUT IT. YOU TAKE LIFE THE UPS AND DOWNS. IF YOU’RE A REAL MAN YA NEVER GO DOWN YA JUST STAY UP"
- RIC FLAIR
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Her name is Cauliflowa
"IF YOU’RE A MAN YOU DON’T CRY ABOUT IT. YOU TAKE LIFE THE UPS AND DOWNS. IF YOU’RE A REAL MAN YA NEVER GO DOWN YA JUST STAY UP"
- RIC FLAIR
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Hahahaha, very Toriyama-esque.
Next week Tenshinan gets reintroduced, but I will eternally be salty over the forgetting of Lunch.
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Well this was the episode the entire Gohan fandom was waiting for. And I loved every second of it. Plus Vegeta doing dad stuff will never get old to me.
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So Piccolo pulled a Super Buu on Gohan, and Yamcha is being a post-Enies Lobby Usopp? I am okay with this.
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Again, good character stuff. I also thought the mention of his peace-loving characteristic - "not being a warrior" - was nice. It means he's a "good guy", but it hinders him to fight at his fullest when truly needed. The confidence he gained training as a kid is a double-edged sword. As a kid it was that he didn't have much confidence, now it's that he has too much.
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So they changed quite a bit from the opening already… Anyway
I love that Gohan is back and all but still the Ultimate concept is bothering me.
Why the others do not take the ritual as well... Same for god ritual but this is another topic.
Add I'm not talking about the effects on them power wise, even if it would still do wonders to Trunks/Goten, but for the simple fact that they do not need to transform into Super Saiyan and above, which wouldn't put a strain on the body anymore.
But currenlty I bet like with the god ritual that's just for the plot, even if it doesn't make sense.And now what's interesting to see... What would Ultimate Gohan get if he would master God Ki?
Episode 90 and Goku vs Gohan will be interesting with the "breaking the wall" title... Piccolo even mentioned it that's not the end for Gohan
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Gohan is finally back! I hope he unlocks SSJ Ikari or something else totally unique to himself within the next 9.5 hours. I'd like Blue to remain reserved for the pureblooded Saiyans. Kind of wonder why they in particular aren't using the RoSaT. Gohan kind of needs it more than anyone at this point with that amount of catchup he still has to do here. Buu and 17 should still above his Ultimate form.
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So, is that girl the long lost grandaughter of Master Tsuru?
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Her name is Cauliflowa
Subs call her Caulifla, so I assume that's going to be the official name going forward.
There's still no confirmation if she's the same character as female Broly, but with her being Cauliflower vs Broly's Broccoli, surely she must be.
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I just realized that Teishin is pretty much doing what Goku always wanted to do in his life.
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This was definitely a good episode. Vegeta being a good dad, Krillin 18 and Marron being a cute family, Piccolo being a good teacher amd Yamcha being a good joke. And the next looks pretty interesting. One satisfied fan sitting here.
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So from the Brassica genus we get
Universe 6: Cauliflower is "Flowers"
Universe 7: Broccoli is "Flowers"Does that mean Cabba is Universe 6 Nappa?:ninja:
Cabba is Leaves/Buds
Nappa is Leaves/buds (Cabbage) ??
or was Nappa "Roots" (Turnips)?? in which case I guess Cauli's bro Spinach was some sort of goof… it would help if we got an official spelling of his name :unsure:Also I just noticed that Goku's family follows a pattern (burdock, negi, radish, and carrot) but both Asparagus (which is really not similar to Broccoli.) and Spinach don't really fit with their family from what I can tell?
also other names I remember that we might see counterparts in U6 of: corn, potato, pumpkin, tomato, lettuce
I am spending way too much effort thinking about food vegetable names
As for the plot if Gohan actually learns from his training with Piccolo (why are they not in the ROSAT?:ninja:) and manages to get past his flaw I'll be happy with super. How much focus they gave it will make me kinda sad if they just drop it and go back to the status quo. Piccolo shooting Gohan in the back was the highlight of the episode for me.
I am actually looking forward to this arc way more than I would have ever guessed.
are we going to wrap things up both Master Roshi and Tenshinhan in the next episode?
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they weren't in the room because that's piccolo's favorite trainin' wasteland
it's where he brought Gohan after he kidnapped him!
like bringin' your son to the ole fishin' hole after some years
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
they weren't in the room because that's piccolo's favorite trainin' wasteland
it's where he brought Gohan after he kidnapped him!
like bringin' your son to the ole fishin' hole after some years
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In DBS, any amount of training in any given period can get you to any level, so the hyperbolic time chamber became superfluous.
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@.access:
In DBS, any amount of training in any given period can get you to any level, so the hyperbolic time chamber became superfluous.
It was always the case though. They had three years to train for the androids and could have worked to get Gohan to Super Saiyan at any point during those three years. That they then suddenly needed another full year of training was all plot… but it didn't matter for Vegeta.
He trained in there just enough to get cocky against Cell and help him out. And then after Goku came out and showed the proper strat for going Super, Vegeta, Trunks and Piccollo spent another year but didn't improve in any significant way, while Goku and Gohan didn't do anymore training.Then during the Buu saga, Goten and Trunks got in a few hours of fusion practice that they probably wouldn't have been afforded otherwise, but they weren't there for long. The room bought them a few hours rather than a year... but they purely used the time to practice fusion dance, no actual training was involved.
Meanwhile, Gohan sat perfectly still for a day and got his best powerup ever.
And then there's potara fusions.
And meanwhile Goku had Super 3 which he didn't use after the first time because it was too draining...And of course back on Namek we had characters jumping by huge leaps by taking near fatal damage and having Dende heal it, the last time that Saiyan exploit was really abused.
And if you go back to classic dragonball Goku having a training period of 3 years with Kami, or 1 night climbing a tower, didn't make a difference, it was always enough.Training for the amount of time you have is always exactly enough. Using the room of spirit and time is only flavor for when they're REALLY written into a corner about how overly strong something is and a day's training seems silly even by dragonball standards to catch up.
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Besides, for them it would be like over leveling in a game, the point isn't to win, but to have a challenge.
The androids and cell they used the extra resources to catch up, not to crush them.
This time should have been used because it is to protect the world, but there was the number of persons/time in the room limitations (were those removed?)
Then it becomes a matter of who is going to use it? Logic points to gohan and picolo because the most you can get out of a power spike, but do you shore up your weakness or build up your strengths? But Robby is right, room or no room the results will be the same.
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Honestly, the best way to look at it is whether it makes for good story and just kinda has a logic behind it in broad strokes.
Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation worked because it was a big character moment for him. This episode kind of worked the same way for me, it's kind of like Gohan finding the fighting mindset again. Even the two parter with Gohan earlier this arc associated his transformation into Super Saiyan with his resolve to fight for his family.
Vegeta actually performs against enemies now because he isn't that arrogant anymore. All the moments when Goku goes Super Saiyan Blue? Simply a "reward" for the characters' resolves or the like. (Also Blue is about Ki control, Goku isn't gonna kill his allies and some of them have never faced God Ki before).
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All fights in Dragon Ball/all fiction come down to what would make interesting drama.
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Yep. Basically the same with all stories. The powerscaling has been a mess for a while now and I've accepted the flaws that might come with it and just go with the logic of whether it's a good story or not. Obviously some general stuff like in what place in the story and what purpose some things have and how that fits, too.
These are all sparring fights, that alone is what makes me okay with them - their purpose isn't showing the characters at their "best" story-wise.
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I'm just over here secretly hoping for a Gohan Piccolo fusion lol.
But the fact that there's even a bit of conversation about a tag team makes me happy. I feel like it's been forever since we've seen strategic planning happening.
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I don't aprove in-family fusions.
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Power leveleling went even further out the window when Beerus showed up, revealed he was only fighting at partial strength but still beat Goku, but that Whis was far stronger than even he was, and then there are a dozen guys as strong as Beerus and a dozen guys as strong as Whis, and then there's tougher guys then that, and then there are supeme kais that aren't pushoevers like ours is, and then there's omni king.
(And then toss in old filler powerhouses like Pikuhan and whatnot.)
Like really, why was Frieza such an uncheckable tyrant? Why was Buu such a threat again? I understand not being able to use Beerus or Omni King but… there were clearly others out there up to the task. And now the humans are keeping up with androids and Super Saiyan Gods? Friza came back and caught up to a god with a couple weeks of training?
It really boils down to what Ubiq has been saying, the only way it makes ANY sense is if the power leveling hasn't been quite as extreme as we were once led to believe. That it wasn't really a x50 x50 x50 multipliers going on but something smaller scale. Like scouters are good and accurate up to about 100,000 but after that they're worthless and power is so potent and condensed it just reads as millions. Considering the hard "multipliers" were always given in databooks and not the actual source, and we never got powerlevels again beyond Frieza "1 million at second form" and eventual "only been using 1/3 of my final form." which gets it to 5 or 6 million total but...
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Or power levels are an inverse logarithmic scale, as in the difference between 1 and 10 is enormous but the diference between 1m and 10m is meaningless.
y is actual destructive power and combat power, while x is power level
But kids, this is just headcanon, the true reason is that Toriyama is bad at math.
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Power leveleling went even further out the window when Beerus showed up, revealed he was only fighting at partial strength but still beat Goku, but that Whis was far stronger than even he was, and then there are a dozen guys as strong as Beerus and a dozen guys as strong as Whis, and then there's tougher guys then that, and then there are supeme kais that aren't pushoevers like ours is, and then there's omni king.
(And then toss in old filler powerhouses like Pikuhan and whatnot.)
Like really, why was Frieza such an uncheckable tyrant? Why was Buu such a threat again? I understand not being able to use Beerus or Omni King but… there were clearly others out there up to the task. And now the humans are keeping up with androids and Super Saiyan Gods? Friza came back and caught up to a god with a couple weeks of training?
It really boils down to what Ubiq has been saying, the only way it makes ANY sense is if the power leveling hasn't been quite as extreme as we were once led to believe. That it wasn't really a x50 x50 x50 multipliers going on but something smaller scale. Like scouters are good and accurate up to about 100,000 but after that they're worthless and power is so potent and condensed it just reads as millions. Considering the hard "multipliers" were always given in databooks and not the actual source, and we never got powerlevels again beyond Frieza "1 million at second form" and eventual "only been using 1/3 of my final form." which gets it to 5 or 6 million total but...
Neither Freeza nor Cell were threats anywhere close to a universal scale, in the sense than they threatened to destroy the whole universe. They weren't even worth the Supreme Kai's intervention.
Buu has been taken care of by U7's inhabitants during his first coming. Looking at how the Zamasu situation was resolved in the end, U7 would probably simply have been deleted if Buu killed the Supreme Kais during the second. And even if not, have we seen any Kais or generally gods of any universe interfering with threats to a single other universe so far? Zamasu was still U7, just in the future.
Also, non-Saiyan characters catching up with the Androids after 10 years honestly doesn't seem far-fetched at all.
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Freeza, who blew up and conquered and enslaved countless worlds, for decades, wasn't a universal threat? Maybe he wasn't going to destroy literally everything, but he was making things pretty miserable for all sentient beings.
And Cell was going to go around and start destroying the universe once he proved himself agains Earth. But given that he was only around for like a week I'll let his threat pass.
And yes, the Saiayans were able to handle Buu this time around, barely and after a lot of shenanigans and luck, and intervention from the gods and copious dragonball spamming, but apparently last time he went around and wrecked all the Kais and was viewed as basically unstoppable, and was barely sealed away. The impression given at the time was that all the Kais were weaker than the Super Saiyans and that they were crazy powerful (especially fused).
Also, non-Saiyan characters catching up with the Androids after 10 years honestly doesn't seem far-fetched at all.
Including Roshi? And catching up with the androids is one thing… but the androids were at SS1 level. The Saiyans and Piccollo far outclass them at this point. No one is going to match to Goku and Vegeta for reasons, but there is a wiiiiiiide gap between the Saiyans and the next down the line.
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Not trying to get too into this discussion, but wasn't Freeza more of a galactic threat. And considering that Beerus was talking about exterminating him, it would seem that if he had kept going on to become a universal threat Beerus would have intervened.
I think that was one of the things that made me sad about Dragonball and that was how dependent they all become on the Saiyans. It is nice to see that some recognition is being thrown at Krillin and the rest, I still hope to see them overcome some of the more powerful fighters through tactics. I still remember Krillin vs Piccolo very vividly on how resourceful that fight was.
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The ability to destroy a single planet, while insignificant next to the power of the Force, is pretty powerful when there's only about two dozen of them in the entire universe.
Really though, like I said back when Resurrection of F came out, making Super Saiyan and subsequent transformations just a 0.5 multiplier makes the scale sort of work where Freeza is concerned.
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Power leveleling went even further out the window when Beerus showed up, revealed he was only fighting at partial strength but still beat Goku, but that Whis was far stronger than even he was, and then there are a dozen guys as strong as Beerus and a dozen guys as strong as Whis, and then there's tougher guys then that, and then there are supeme kais that aren't pushoevers like ours is, and then there's omni king.
(And then toss in old filler powerhouses like Pikuhan and whatnot.)
Like really, why was Frieza such an uncheckable tyrant? Why was Buu such a threat again? I understand not being able to use Beerus or Omni King but… there were clearly others out there up to the task. And now the humans are keeping up with androids and Super Saiyan Gods? Friza came back and caught up to a god with a couple weeks of training?
I may be off since I skipped two arcs, but does any of those characters care?
I mean, sure, there was a lot of people in the multiverse stronger than threats like Freeza or Cell, but would they do anything to stop them? Beerus and Whys clearly don't give a damn and all the angels/gods from other universes also don't seem to care about what happens in other universes. Even Zen, the king of all universes, is about to destroy over half of them on a whim. The reason why Freeza was threat is not because there wasn't anyone stronger than him in the multiverse, it is more like there wasn't anyone stronger than him who would move a finger to stop him.
Apart from the Supreme Kai (and U7's one is not really impressive), it's up to the mortals to defend the life in their universes.
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Isn't it canon now that Freeza was actually a planet-destroying employee of Beerus, or something?
I mean, its a friggin garbage idea, but I think I saw mentioned it on the Wikia somewhere
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@Daz:
Isn't it canon now that Freeza was actually a planet-destroying employee of Beerus, or something?
I mean, its a friggin garbage idea, but I think I saw mentioned it on the Wikia somewhere
I thought Beerus was aware of Freeza, but didn't do anything about it as Freeza was kind of doing his work for him. More a case of tolerance coming from Beerus than obedience coming from Freeza.
Not sure though, would have to rewatch some stuff.
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_Beerus: By the way, Whis, while I was asleep, did Freeza leave Planet Vegeta destroyed for me?
Whis: Yes, without a trace.
Beerus: Oh, yeah? I could have given the folks on that planet an eternity, but they'd still be nothing but trouble. And that King Vegeta was especially hard-fisted. I would have been happy to destroy them, too, but their world is so far away, you know? It was too much trouble. I have to admit, though, Freeza is a bad apple, too. He's so self-important. The next time I see him, I think I might destroy him, too._
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Wait, Beerus hired Freezer to destroy planet Vegeta!? I know Dragonball continuity is wafer thin, but holy crap is that a shitty retcon.
That said, as a semi-follower of DBS, I do appreciate a lotof the callbacks they're making - like remembering #17 existed, the Mafuba technique, or Piccolo having extendo-arms. A lot of stuff fell by the wayside as the series progressed, so its neat to see it (uncharacteristically) remembered.
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It's more like he saw that was coming and let it happen because it would save him work. But even though he knows what Freeza was doing was convenient for him, Beerus was still thinking about killing him one day because he didn't like Freeza anyways.
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Pretty sure Beerus is also the reason why Buu was a problem considering he was asleep during all of buu's rampaging
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
Poor Yamcha always the butt of the joke and never getting any time to shine, I mean picking Roshi over him is just sad….
Member of Beelzebub is Freakin' Awesome Group
what I'm catching up on currently: Gintama, lone wolf & cub, Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, and lost in poem (by our very own AP member GEPPETTOSMONSTER)
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It isn't considering Yamcha lost every major fight he has been in.
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To be fair, Roshi was not chosen because of his power, but because they are betting he can come up with some strategies due to his long experience. That's something only he can offer out of all the options. Yamcha, on the other hand, would just be another strong guy in a team with already 9 of them, except he doesn't measure up to any of the others.
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Roshi was chosen so he could have a rematch with Broccoli, I mean Cauliflowa~
He has enough power to destroy the moon, he qualifies as a contender even in strength. Turtle school for life
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@Daz:
Wait, Beerus hired Freezer to destroy planet Vegeta!? I know Dragonball continuity is wafer thin, but holy crap is that a shitty retcon.
That said, as a semi-follower of DBS, I do appreciate a lotof the callbacks they're making - like remembering #17 existed, the Mafuba technique, or Piccolo having extendo-arms. A lot of stuff fell by the wayside as the series progressed, so its neat to see it (uncharacteristically) remembered.
I mean it is pretty dumb, but I can buy it. Beerus wanted the Saiyans gone, there was Freeza running around doing his thing and employing the Saiyans, and he already knew of the Super Saiyan legend. I imagine once he was asked he jumped at the chance. Even without Beerus, he likely would have offed them once he thought they fulfilled their usefulness anyway, so it doesn't bother me as much.
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Power leveleling went even further out the window when Beerus showed up, revealed he was only fighting at partial strength but still beat Goku, but that Whis was far stronger than even he was, and then there are a dozen guys as strong as Beerus and a dozen guys as strong as Whis, and then there's tougher guys then that, and then there are supeme kais that aren't pushoevers like ours is, and then there's omni king.
(And then toss in old filler powerhouses like Pikuhan and whatnot.)
Like really, why was Frieza such an uncheckable tyrant? Why was Buu such a threat again? I understand not being able to use Beerus or Omni King but… there were clearly others out there up to the task. And now the humans are keeping up with androids and Super Saiyan Gods? Friza came back and caught up to a god with a couple weeks of training?
It really boils down to what Ubiq has been saying, the only way it makes ANY sense is if the power leveling hasn't been quite as extreme as we were once led to believe. That it wasn't really a x50 x50 x50 multipliers going on but something smaller scale. Like scouters are good and accurate up to about 100,000 but after that they're worthless and power is so potent and condensed it just reads as millions. Considering the hard "multipliers" were always given in databooks and not the actual source, and we never got powerlevels again beyond Frieza "1 million at second form" and eventual "only been using 1/3 of my final form." which gets it to 5 or 6 million total but...
The power levels have never made much sense. Who are you referring to that could have stopped Freeza and also cared, though?
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The power levels have never made much sense. Who are you referring to that could have stopped Freeza and also cared, though?
Supreme Kai and Kibito at the very least. Filler character Pikuhan. And for all the Beerus is lazy, Whis seems like the sort to get involved to fix things if there's a problem.
Beyond that, I'm less concerned about why Frieza was a problem, and why BUU was. An actual galactic level threat that DID draw the attention of the kais and apparently decimated the upper ranks…. even though theres tough guys that could have easily handled him apparently.
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We all know Toriyama hadn't thought up the Gods of Destruction or the other beings that make up the current upper echelon of power in Dragonball at that time. If you need an in story reason really they aren't any beings besides Whis and Beerus who could stop Buu in universe 7. Apparently there are only 20 some odd inhabited planets in universe 7.
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Supreme Kai and Kibito at the very least. Filler character Pikuhan. And for all the Beerus is lazy, Whis seems like the sort to get involved to fix things if there's a problem.
Beyond that, I'm less concerned about why Frieza was a problem, and why BUU was. An actual galactic level threat that DID draw the attention of the kais and apparently decimated the upper ranks…. even though theres tough guys that could have easily handled him apparently.
Whis is explicitly neutral and can't majorly interfere in galactic matters. He can train others and do little cheats like his time reverse, but stopping freeza directly? he'd be out of a job.
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
The issue of Beerus and Whis ignoring Buu is made even worse by the decision that the Gods of Destruction and Supreme Kais were linked in life.
Complicating things since 2009.
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They forgot about the multiple Kaioshins. Beerus' life being linked to East Kaioshin (and not Dai Kaioshin) is too random.
