@Shiebs said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
The new trailer for The Marvels is the most disliked MCU trailer of all time
Because of course it is
The misogyny that exists in fandom spaces is simultaneously pathetically hilarious and scary.
Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs
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Looks like the MCU will be getting a "soft" reboot after Avengers 6.
https://screenrant.com/avengers-6-mcu-reboot-marvel-characters-return/?utm_campaign=TrueAnthem-SR&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1_cPqP3iKVFYofI9_bH0NPSjXwRBilBTF9lAWphPN-qJOoiThjEyRTyRYTruly learning from the comics.
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It would make it a lot easier to fold the X-Men into the mix.
Hope this doesn't lead to a whole slew of redone origin movies though. -
@Satsuki said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
Looks like the MCU will be getting a "soft" reboot after Avengers 6.
https://screenrant.com/avengers-6-mcu-reboot-marvel-characters-return/?utm_campaign=TrueAnthem-SR&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1_cPqP3iKVFYofI9_bH0NPSjXwRBilBTF9lAWphPN-qJOoiThjEyRTyRYTruly learning from the comics.
OMG I know every movie thus far hasnt set the world on fire but this is concerning. A reboot after so very few movies? This is seriously concerning.
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It’s been 15 years since Iron Man came out. By the time Avengers 6 comes out it’ll probably be 20 years. I know reboots and reviving old franchises have been the trend nowadays, but to have a franchise come out with so many movies in the same universe within such a small timeframe is pretty amazing.
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I think its a shame. They have a chance to legitimately boost newer characters and make them as big an iconic as the characters that have been around for 60 years. They managed it with Miles as Spiderman. With Guardians who were absolutely a C-string group, and the Black Panther crew. Daredevil, who is a classic character but never a big name in mainstream.
They didn't manage it with Ant-Man so much but that's because even in-universe they just kept going "yeah his name and his powers are dumb, we know". They're trying with Kamala and we'll see how that goes once she's in a full blown movie and not just a show. Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur is fun but hasn't gotten the real treatment yet.But they could do the same for young avengers, Squirrel Girl, Gravity, Hit Monkey, X-Men that aren't just the Claremont era group... having the old characters be retired or dead is great for pushing new ones,
I understand just doing a reboot and going back to the big names they know work but.. its a perfect time to actually grow the brands and franchises while they have a receptive audience.
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Guess it’s a question as to what “receptive audience” means. The new movies have been doing badly financially as of late (exception being Gunn’s last hurrah and Spider-Man), and I don’t even think a lot of them in phase 4 were bad. Burn out’s been real, and honestly quality needs to step up their game, and while this could happen without the soft reboot, giving movies the ability to breathe on their own might help instead of hurt. At least under the notion of a “soft reboot” they can move past the legacy they carried beforehand, and the rebranding can give the illusion of starting new and fresh.
Though this is coming from the person that hasn’t given secret invasion or Loki 2 a shot yet, so Iono.
Originally Posted by Nightwing
Stay focused, cause right now you have a decision to make. Are you a man perpetually looking back at what he’s lost, or a man looking forward, to what he might become?
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@Gizmo said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
Guess it’s a question as to what “receptive audience” means. The new movies have been doing badly financially as of late (exception being Gunn’s last hurrah and Spider-Man), and I don’t even think a lot of them in phase 4 were bad.
Have they, though? Thor 4 made about as much money as Thor 3, Doctor Strange 2 almost made a billion and thus a lot more than the first one, and while Black Panther 2 wasn't as successful as the first one, it almost made a billion as well. And in contrast to their predecessors, none of these films were released in China.
If your measure of success is that a movie has to make at least a billion dollars to be considered financially successful, than that's a) kinda crazy to expect every single movie in the MCU to make Avengers-like numbers b) and also would mean that both GotG Vol. 3 and a lot of the movies in Phase 1-3 have done poorly as well.
The only stinker at the box office so far has been Ant-Man 3 (and some of the movies released in the midst of the pandemic that were simultaneously released on Disney+, so it feels kinda unfair to count those). None of the Ant-Man movies were particularly impressive financial successes, and the recent one in particular got abysmal reviews.
That said, I agree the MCU needs to do something because I also feel interest is overall waning. But I'm not sure a soft reboot is the right way to go here. The problem imo right now is that MCU feels swarmed with disconnected characters. During the first three phases there was a feeling of having a clear main cast of characters - namely, the Avengers, particularly the Big 3 - that served as a connecting thread throughout all films. I often hear people say that the MCU lacked focus during phase 4 and wasn't building to anything, but I don't think that is completely true. I feel like the multiverse served as a common thread throughout a lot of the recent movies and shows.
I think the feeling of a lack of focus comes from a lack of clear main characters at the moment. It used to feel like we were following Iron Man, Captain America and co. on their journey, from beginning to end. Now that they are gone, nobody seems to have taken their place. During Phase 1-3, you basically had these characters pop up in a new movie every two or three years. Between 2012 (first Avengers film) and 2019 (Endgame) Iron Man appeared in movies in 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Captain America appeared in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2018. Thor appeared in 2013, 2015, 2017 and 2018. See what I mean? We constantly spent time with these characters.
So to me, the real solution is not to just be lazy and do a reboot, but to find new main characters as replacement. It's not like there aren't contenders. Spider-Man and Doctor Strange come to mind first, but right now there aren't even any new movies in production featuring those characters. Same goes for newcomers like Shang-Chi, Kate Bishop or Moon Knight. I like all of those characters well enough, but why care if it takes such a long time to see them again, if ever?
There are too many characters and projects right now to really give strong focus on any character in particular, and I think people are starting to feel exhausted by that.
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@Gizmo said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
the new movies have been doing badly financially as of late
and honestly quality needs to step up their game,
These two things are related. But it's also a misconception based on... covid era films, the DC movies, and the reception to Ant Man.
Black Widow, Eternals and Shang Chi all got hit by limited covid theater time and going straight to streaming and shouldn't really be in any fair analysis, and even then all three made 400 million+ anyway, better than any phase 1 or 2 first outings aside from Guardians.
Spiderman 3 made almost 2 billion. Guardians, Doctor Strange 2, and Panther 2 made about a billion, and considering Panther lost its star? Thor 4, despite its negative reception still made 760 million, and yeah that's down a bit from Thor 3, but its also not as good a film as Thor 3, and still several hundred million ahead of the first two films.
And even Ant Man 3, for allll the shit it got, still made 480 million, which is only slightly under the other Ant Man films.
The first one made 520, and the second made 510. That's just Ant Man, because they decided the "this character sucks and you should laugh at him" he's stuck with doesn't resonate.The tv shows are a mixed bag and definitely need a quality check and they need to slow it down some, but the writers strike is actually forcing that issue. SOmehow they DIDN'T have showrunners before? That's insane.
But the box office is still pretty solid on these things. How the Marvels does (and it's actual quality) will be telling. Deadpool 3 will almost certainly do well but its such an oddity its hard to classify till we see it. If the strikes go any longer its probably not making its May release date.
(Also the awful venom movies made a lot of money. Kraven won't, but...)
Now the DC films on the other hand... those are a mess and are flop after flop but thats because audiences really don't like the Snyderverse and they've all been bad.
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as someone who dropped it after hawkeye (which was good and my favorite out of the batch), I think this was largely expected. They did too much too fast and gambled heavily on the marvel brand to get audience investment on the newer series/characters. It would have worked if the writing was consistent all around but it wasn't. If this was an anime, there were just too many damn filler arcs to get through. They likely believe that people desire more so content churning through tv show was a thing but people also desire quality and sure, its fine if you slip off here and there but eventually it'll catch on. There's only so much you can do with superhero plots and even if there's more that you can do, it is pointless if the writers can't be overly experimental about it so as not to fuck with the "grand scheme of things".
That's the tv series side of things but the movies were also lackluster and passable at best. Spider 3 anjd GotG 3 was really good but almost everything else just exists and Ant Man 3 was built up and marketed to deliver something but then does completely nothing except for the most minute thing that you really don't want to waste your time on the internet arguing for.
It's the same problem with the comics. The soft reboot, if they really do it, won't help and will go down the same sorry state as the comics. I'm sorry but that's just what is going to happen if you don't step all the way back and take a hard look at why the superhero fatigue is a thing. It's not just about bringing Captain America or Iron Man back.
I love Loki's first season but honestly can't find it in me to watch Loki 2. I wish I could say it's superhero fatigue but it's more of a what's the damn point. Phase1 to 3 was the golden age and it will have to pass at some point so this was inevitable. Whatever is ahead is and should be unknown territory because no, you can't just whack crossovers and create superhero groups and expect them to keep winning at the box offices because the comics tried that and it was lackluster. No other franchise has such a huge ass catalogue of characters and movies under their belt that they have to find a way to deal with. You can obviously cut the loose ends out and get out of the sunken cost and then backtrack and do the same thing over again (introduce new heroes) but at a slower pace but you might find yourself at the same spot if you can't handle it well. In addition, your other actors who are now beloved will age and move on to other projects so you might have to reboot them too if you sit on your ass long enough.
They spun themselves into this mess DESPITE the precedent that the comics have shown that it will be an inevitable failing to try to do too much too fast. So really, good luck with that.
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Forgot/didn’t realize Thor 4 and Black Panther were as successful as they were financially. I recall Thor 4 feeling like the turning point for Marvel given its mixed reception. It’s on the lower end of Marvel films critically; despite some high points I agree it was a middling film. Black Panther 2 is so overshadowed by the loss of Boseman that everything else about it feels mute. Can’t believe they were just released last year too, their releases feels like forever ago.
I feel bad for the Marvels because there seems to be a vocal minority that has irrational hate for Brie Larson and Captain Marvel’s character, and given the first film made over a billion it’ll always be compared to that and be considered a flop if it doesn’t make that much, but it seems like even for a superhero film standard it’s not doing great at the box office according to previews, worse than Ant Man 3. I’m expecting the quality to be solid, but we’ll see. It’s also the first real film to bring tv characters to the big screen so it’ll be perceived as the precedent for how much of an impact the tv shows have on films. But yeah, also think DC flops and the superhero genre are impacting things, definitely mixed in their failures in with Marvel’s when I made the post.
https://screenrant.com/the-marvels-early-box-office-projections/
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Do note that for all the doom and gloom, an opening weekend of 75 million would put it on track with Doctor Strange, Guardians 1, Winter Soldier...
On the other hand, that notorious flop Oppenheimer was projected to make 50 million opening weekend so that could be a bad sign.
If the movie is any good it'll have legs and the opening week doesn't matter. If it sucks, it sucks, and it deserves to not do well. Tracking predictions only tell you anything when a movie is going to be a super mega hit and everyone is buying tickets in advance, it doesn't say anything about casual interest or what happens after reviews come out.
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The lukewarm tracking for the marvels movie reflects my own attitude towards it, in that theres just really nothing about it that grabs me as a "must see". A big part of that is not having a real strong handle on these characters and their personalities, which is a problem when the hook of the movie is them teaming up - thats where you want the fun character dynamics to shine! Like Avengers being Boy Scout meets Broody Angst Man meets Grandiose God meets quippy Snarkster. But as someone who hasn't bought into the MCU TV shows, I know nothing about "Photon" (I think thats what she's called?) except that she exists, and don't feel the trailers sell her as particularly distinct. I can suss out Miss Marvels general vibe, but didn't we just have a spunky young sidekick in the Doctor Strange movie? Wasn't MCU Spideys whole thing being a Young MCU fan? And I think Hawkeye and Black Panther has some as well? And as for Capt. Marvel herself, I actually have seen her in a movie but...she really left no impression. Previously the MCU was very good at selling me on particular character archetypes specific vibes, I'm just not really getting that here.
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Every time I think I’m out, I get pulled back in…(series will be TV-MA)
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I still question the need for a Echo series, but that looks quite good.
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Given the recent pre/post mortem on some of Marvel’s most recent projects they had better hope this can do some good.
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Return of the Netflix-verse.
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@Daz said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
I can suss out Miss Marvels general vibe, but didn't we just have a spunky young sidekick in the Doctor Strange movie?
I know you made this comment three weeks ago and I'm just now seeing it but...
That is a direct result of the fact that the comics realized 20 years ago that outside of the X-Men, there was a real imbalance in gender and ethnicity among... basically all the Marvel characters. So they started taking steps to rectify that and in many many many cases, that involved "different ethnicity teen version of established male character, often female."
Which is a GOOD thing, it needed to be done in the 60's, but what can you do.
So you get the Young Avengers, and X--23, and Iron Hear and Ms. Marvel, and America Ferrera and Gwenpool (who despite the name has no connection to Gewn Stacey or Deadpool) and Falcon Captain America and Amadeus Cho Hulk and Miles SPiderman and... Dozens and dozens of young versions of existing heroes that are a bit more diverse. And again, that's a good thing.
And that's nothing new, She-Hulk and Spider-Woman happened decades ago, and building a new character off an established one tends to work better than introducing an entirely new character like say, Gravity, who you have probably never heard of and I only know existsbecause I colored the comic he premiered in.
The trick is, comics are constantly throwing this stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks,,, and they introduced these characters over a couple decades and inbetween thousands of comics and dozens of events.
When the movies just do it in every single movie sequentially because the old actors have burned through their 10 year contracts, the "forced new blood namesake takeover character" is a lot lot more obvious... especially since they'll never actually be side by side with the original. (ANd then Thor ALSO doing it with a wholly new character not even from the comics...)
Ms. Marvel is one of the weird one because Captain Marvel actually has a super convoluted history in the comics and multiple names, power sets, and people with that identity, and Photon was one of those. The problem is in the comics she had a multi-year stint as Captain Marvel, while here she had the C story in the background of the final episode of someone else's show... AND the actor was aged up and replaced because the original was set in the 80's... so the history and connection just isn't there.
In a different world where Captain Marvel was a proper legacy character with a big audience and multiple movies and shows, this would be the big Spiderman crossover that united Toby and Andrew and Holland plus all their enemies and it being a reuinion event would be implicitly understood.
But instead in this world, Brie Larson understandably doesn't want to play the role any longer than she's contracted to because internet trolls made her life hell, Black Panther lost its lead actor unexpectedly, and they overplayed the tv miniseries card making viewers burn out, so no one really cares about revisiting Wandavision now, and they have to push the replacement actors faster than they expected.
So it's kind of a big payoff reunion of all the women with the Captain Marvel name... but without 50 years of comic history to make it any sort of actual event.
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@Robby Oh I absolutely have nothing against the idea of "diverse younger maybe female Legacy Characters" (though I think its a shame they need to be saddeled with pre-existing monikers rather than carving their own from scratch, but thats just risk-averse businessmaking), I'm more just perplexed that the vibe of this new crop of characters seems so similar, at least to me.
I'm admittedly not up-to-date on the MCU as is, it just feels like if you did a "Young Avengers" style teamup of America Chavez, Tom Holland Spidey, Ms Marvel, Cassie Lang, Ironheart etc. it'd feel a lot more homogenous personality wise than the OG Avengers, where the distinct personalities used to be one of the MCUs main draws (and I'd argue, one of the main reasons the Guardians movies could stand firm as their own successful little thing)
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@Daz I wouldn't call America spunky at all. She is more reserved and grew up knowing her parents, then ripped away from them to bouncing from untrustworthy "protector" to the next.
She is less outgoing than Kamala. Kamala is very wide eyed.
If America met Carol, she would probably be more reserved and analytical of the situation for her safety.
Kamala is a fan girl, fast talking, spunky, troublemaker.
2 very different people.
On a side note, Monica is compassionate and willing to hear others out and at times harsh when needed. I won't be going to see this film like any film, but I want to watch off how Monica and Carol's relationship transforms.
It was last shown that Monica looked up to Carol like Kamala does, but now there is something off where Carol's engagements and duty to matters in space have possibly soured that.
Also, it is said to never meet your idols. Does Kalama stan behavior remain after finally meeting Carol?
The most interesting part is in the trailer really and what I questioned at the end of the 1st film. The Kree aren't the type to give up. Carol destroyed probably 100s of Kree in those ships. They must have loved ones.
Is this antagonist 1 of them? Carol was the one to get payback in the 1st film, now this lady looks like she is the one looking for revenge this time.
To me, all 3 relationships are decent foils.
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Am I the only one upset they changed Ms Marvel’s powers?
I thought they fit her perfectly in the comics
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@Shiebs said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
Am I the only one upset they changed Ms Marvel’s powers?
I thought they fit her perfectly in the comics
No, everyone's annoyed by that.
The general assumption is they did that because stretchy powers are hard to make look good in live action and energy stuff just looks better on screen what with all the glowies, and it harmonizes her with Captain Marvel more.
But recent comments from Feige make it seem like it might also be because the MCU hasn't had the fantastic four yet and they don't want a stretchy hero before Mr. Fantastic. (Or maybe at all if they want him to be THE one)
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Them changing Kamala’s stretching and size changing powers looks funny in retrospect when you see how the people involved in the One Piece adaptation said “hey this is going to look dumb, but fuck it let’s make a series where the main characters stretches”.
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I was drunk enough so the Marvels was okay. I didn't want to finish my alcohol because I thought I remembered I paid for this but I couldn't take it anymore somewhere around the 90th deadpan joke. This is obviously a biased opinion seeing how I'm like 3 movies and 6 series behind and was obligated to catch the film because of my company but that was painful. Action scenes and Ms Marvel was pretty much the only time I let the alcohol not take over.
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Better than I expected but my expectations were super low coming in given reviews I’ve listened to. I thought tonally it’d be more uneven but it wasn’t that bad; honestly think it could have used a more consistent lighter tone, but I think I’m the minority in thinking that the jokes and funny scenes worked for the most part.
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Not particularly interested to see The Marvels but Loki Season 2 was amazing imo
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The Marvels was great!
Not the best Marvel movie, it didn't have the emotional weight or depth for that, but certainly the one I had the most consistent FUN at in a long time. It's the first one in ages I feel like I might actually rewatch at some point. It hit its fun tone immediately and then kept it the whole time.
It's the movie Kamala Khan would want to be in, so it 100% succeeded at that.
It goes without saying, but make sure to stay for the mid credits. My audience actually gasped at this one.
That 100 minute run time was exactly right. There's some spots where I feel like there was probably some extra exposition or an extra cutaway or something, that then wisely got cut in the editing room. The movie could have easily been 30 minutes longer and worse for it.
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Rottentomatoes seems to agree that it is "funny and refreshingly brief", so that's a good quality.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_marvelsFor what it's about and all that's led up to it, 62% isn't bad.
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Yep, The Marvels was definitely a fun movie. All those who are saying this is one of if not the worst movie, I don't know what they're talking about.
And yes, thank you Disney for putting out an MCU movie under 2 hours.
Oh, and did anyone else notice that the villain's plan is taken from Spaceballs?
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I really enjoyed The Marvels though I still think Captain Marvel has been handled oddly by the MCU from the start. Her first film needed to have been a year or two earlier than Endgame and there really was enough material in flashbacks that I think could have been used for an entire film in its own right.
Complicating things since 2009.
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I wasn't expecting that much, and I only watched it because we were in another city with some hours to spare, but I really enjoyed the film (on the other hand, my wife, that loved the first one, did not like this one as much).
Of course it has its problems, for example I recon it would have really benefited from being 20 minutes longer. But, overall, I think its better than a lot of the latest movies/tv series.
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@Cockycent said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
@Ubiq I think that 1st film was released at a decent time.
They were doing 2-3 films max at that point. Which film are you taking out, so her movie can be released in any of those previous year?
I wouldn't take anything out; just move Captain Marvel in between Black Panther and Infinity War with the latter moving to Ant-Man and Wasp's place while the latter moves to Captain Marvel's spot.
In an ideal situation, Black Widow also would have come out before Endgame or even Infinity War itself. Well, that and Disney wouldn't have sabotaged it and their entire future theatrical lineup with the Disney+ premium releases.
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@Nonsh said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
Of course it has its problems, for example I recon it would have really benefited from being 20 minutes longer. But, overall, I think its better than a lot of the latest movies/tv series.
This is one where you can just tell stuff got cut because it didn't do well with test audiences. Little bits and pieces where there was probably some extra exposition to clear things up.
It works for the film, it keeps the pace brisk and up tempo with no time to drag with useless C plots (looking at you, Martin Freeman in Panther 2) but you do feel the missing 15 minutes.
Like it's really, really obvious that the
was originally much longer and got cut down after test screenings because audiences probably found it too weird.
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Oh man. That's one the schlockiest things I've seen in a while. Love it.
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Bad news for the next Avengers movie
https://deadline.com/2023/11/marvel-destin-daniel-cretton-avengers-kang-dynasty-exits-1235612901/
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@Shiebs said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
The only Madam Web I know is from the old 90's Spiderman cartoon, so this doesn't do much for me.
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To be fair the Madame Web from the 90’s cartoon was more or less the same Madame Web from the 1980’s comic minus the blindfold.
And that character has long been dead in the comics.
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The line delivery about her mother made it really camp. I think it'll be middle ground reception wise, between Venom's comercial success and Morbius cultural and economical failure (didn't really say much here, did i?)
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Sony's strategy of trying to build movies around Spider-Man villains/characters that aren't Doc Ock, Venom, or Green Goblin is just weird to me and I'm not even sure about Green Goblin when it comes down to it.
Especially when they go to things that are moderately obscure even for people who are actually familiar with Spider-Man. At the very least, they should go completely ridiculous with it and give us a Big Wheel film.
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Yeah, I can kinda understand Venom, since he's really popular and has become more of an anti-hero anyway...but there is a reason these guys are villains and not main characters with their own comic book series. It's just a bad idea in general and an especially bad way to try and emulate the MCU's success by building their own shared universe of Spider-Man villains (that don't even get to meet or interact with Spider-Man in these films). Where are movies centered around characters like Morbius or Madame Web supposed to go, really?
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Isn't Madame Web more of a neutral character than a villain?
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@Ubiq said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
Especially when they go to things that are moderately obscure even for people who are actually familiar with Spider-Man. At the very least, they should go completely ridiculous with it and give us a Big Wheel film.
You really do love Big Wheel huh?
@Riddler said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
Where are movies centered around characters like Morbius or Madame Web supposed to go, really?
Morbius could always be a he who fights monster type of story which even then would have a short shelf life I honestly don’t know about Madame Web where even Marvel and their various branches can’t figure out what to do with the character.
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@Time-Control-Magician said in Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs:
You really do love Big Wheel huh?
How can anyone not? Big Wheel is a prime example of a villain that feels like they should be from a parody series and not an actual Spider-Man character.
Plus you can't just go straight for The Wall movie; that's one you build up to.
Complicating things since 2009.
