Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

[Deicide]

@Ivotas This is the reason I think Yamato is not joining even at the end of the story. What's the purpose of becoming a crewmate if not for doing crewmate things? Especially interactions, seeing its dream fulfilled, getting match-ups, see the character developing?

With him left in Wano, I think we will see a cover story of his adventures there. Maybe he starts going to the regions and capturing former Beast Pirates that are causing trouble, and we see what happened to the Numbers and so, and eventually some of them befriend Yamato and change sides.

Then we go back to the main story when Blackbeard or whoever comes for Pluton. They fail to stop the threat, and then Yamato and the crew he gathered go to sea.

So, when it's time to battle that threat that got Pluton, Yamato and his crew join the fight.

[Ivotas]

@Deicide
Oh, this isn't just a Yamato thing. It applies to anyone's who in the "offboard crew".

Just take a look at Vivi. The goodbye seen always was a "until the day we all travel together again" sort of parting. And the time for her to come back draws nearer. But the way how things are framed it and how Oda is speeding things up, chances are high it will be an endgame thing too. Which again begs the question, what's the appeal?

Vivi wasn't there to see a ship fall from the sky, she didn't make up to sky island, she didn't join a sports event to keep the crew from being snatched away, didn't see the wonderous water city, didn't invade a government island, didn't go on a ghost adventure, didn't have an adventure on the sea floor, didn't step foot on islands inhabited by toys, anthropomorphic animals or animated everyday objects. She didn't journey through any of this, even though she's been an "offboard crewmember" through all of this. What's the point?

It's not about Yamato or Vivi or Carrot. It's about giving a new character time to actually have part in the exploration of the unknown if they become a Strawhat Pirate. Just coming back for a fight will always make them seem like lesser Strawhats. Neither of the three nor whoever else will be a candidate of equal caliber deserves that.

[Deicide]

@Ivotas One of the reasons I've stuck with Hancock is because she, like Jinbe, were there with Luffy in Impel Down and Marineford. I felt Yamato being friends with Ace kinda gave him a compensation for not being present in the war and suffered through the timeskip.

However, being an experienced captain like Jinbe, I think Hancock already has explored quite a lot of the Grand Line and does not need to be marveled at the wondrous world. So she can focus only in interaction with the crew.

If the crew pull off some conversation about Water 7 or some other place, Hancock and Jinbe can just pull a "Oh, that place! I visited it once!" or "Oh, that place! I heard a lot about it!"

That's something Yamato's would be lacking. Everyone would be talking about previous adventures or and he would feel like he missed everything.

[Ivotas]

@Deicide
I don't agree with the notion that being an experienced traveler doesn't need to be marveled at the unknown that lies ahead. No matter how many things you've seen and how many places you've visited, you've never seen it all and there's always the next unknown.

And in the One Piece world this holds especially truth as the further one progresses to Laugh Tale the lower the number of people that have gotten this far gets. Sure Jinbei might have navigated easily through Whitebeards and later through Big Moms territory. But did he really see all the islands within Kaido's and Shanks'. Possible but lesser likely. And we don't even know if Hancock travelled to the New World since her Warlord title would mean she enters enemy territory as soon as she's in Emperor waters. Plus Amazon Lily is in the Paradise side of the Grand Line/Calm Belt so I would expect she's undertaking expeditions closer to her home base.

So to wrap it all up. I think that even Jinbei and Hancock can still marvel at the unknown ahead of them. In the OP world there's only one crew that's seen it all. And neither Jinbei nor Hancock were part of it. So for Hancock I would apply the same argument I did for Vivi, Yamato and Carrot. If she's not with the crew to actually be part of the core elment of being a Strawhat Pirate ( = experiencing a romantic adventure) then the label of Strawhat Pirate would feel like an empty label.

[Deicide]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

I don't agree with the notion that being an experienced traveler doesn't need to be marveled at the unknown that lies ahead

It's not that they don't need to be marvelled at the unknown, it's that most of the things the crew has already seen they've already seen as well. It's about not making these "new" crewmates feel like they missed most of the stuff the crew has seen.

What lies ahead is another story. Making very experienced captains surprised at the things that are still to be seen would make those things appear even more amazing.

[Ivotas]

@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

I don't agree with the notion that being an experienced traveler doesn't need to be marveled at the unknown that lies ahead

It's not that they don't need to be marvelled at the unknown, it's that most of the things the crew has already seen they've already seen as well. It's about not making these "new" crewmates feel like they missed most of the stuff the crew has seen.

What lies ahead is another story. Making very experienced captains surprised at the things that are still to be seen would make those things appear even more amazing.

That's what I have been saying in the first place. Whoever joins, should be there and just feel as wonderously amazed as the rest of the crew. No matter who the 10th person is respectively if the "offboard crew" finally becomes "onboard crew".

But if we end up getting someone to join past that point and only for the battle portion, then it would be a letdown as they'd feel more like Strawhat allies and less like Strawhat Pirates.

[Deicide]

@Ivotas And I agree with that. My point was more about any new crewmate missing the things the crew has already seen.

I feel Yamato in particular would feel out of place because all he wanted was to see the world, and by joining late he'd essentially have missed most of the adventure.

Other more experienced crewmates, however, at least would come with the idea that they've been having adventures akin to the crew's. They may have missed stuff, but not so much stuff.

What lies ahead would be new to everyone, of course.

[King Cannon]

@Ivotas To be fair, Vivi doesn't need to be there for most of those things, the same way Brook and Jinbe missed going into a sky island or fighting through Enies Lobby.

Vivi also had her adventures. She adventured through Laboon, sailed through crazy weather in the Merry, escaped from assassins, met giants, almost died in an avalanche and took part in the effort to defeat a Warlord of the Sea. It may not be a significant chunk of the SH's adventures, but she was still there for nearly a 100 chapters in a central role.

[Ivotas]

@Deicide
As I said before, I'm not putting one character against each other with this specific aspect I'm talking about. I just feel that if someone joins or re-joins for that matter than it should be more than just to provide fighting support. No matter how experienced or inexperienced an explorer they are.

[Ivotas]

@King-Cannon
All the more reason that if she comes rejoins then it should be in as it was before. Don't just fight the big evil but also experience seeing things like dinosaurs being belittlted by dueling giants, Monthy Python rabbit squads and a 5000 meter tall icemountain turning into a cherry tree that paints snow pink (come to think of it, why isn't the snow in the Sakura Kingdom pink in the colored version of the manga?). At least mirror her previous journey where there were wonders before the big conflict in Arabasta. If it would just be the latter without the adventure before it would feel a bit cheap to have her rejoin so long for just that. Might aswell count her amongst the many allies of the Strawhats instead if that was the case.

[electricmastro]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

A completely different point I don't get, which is not an x vs. y character debate is: Why do people value the idea of a character joining the crew at the endpoint of the series so much? Let's say Vivi, Yamato and/or Carrot join either at the climax of the series or after the series conclusing in an "...and they all sailed together for many years to come" kind of way. What's the appeal? Isn't the whole point of them being a Strawhat Pirate for us to see them being part in the adventures of the main cast? I cannot see any value in someone joining this late other than bragging rights.

And no, I'm not pointing fingers at the Yamato supporters here. If for example Carrot would join at the end it would mean nothing to me. Sure it be nice to see her team up with the Strawhats again (as it would be nice to see Yamato and Vivi etc. again). But it would mean nothing to in the sense of witnessing her being part the voyages and adventures of the Strawhat Pirates. If she doesn't actually sail through various adventures which we readers can actually witness, the moniker of Strawhat Pirate is an empty husk. That's why I don't get the appeal of the "she will join much later for sure" argument.

For me, I guess I just don't short-sight myself so much to the point that I'll deny other people joining the crew "because it's too late." Understanding people want to see more, for me I've just never seen the crew as having a cut off point. Luffy can make friends with anyone anyone he wants, and any relationship he has with the others shouldn't feel any less relevant or less special because of time. One might as well say Brook or Jinbe don't feel as much like Straw Hats because they haven't been there as long as Zoro has and haven't been to Alabasta or Skypiea or Enies Lobby like how he has either.

I guess I don't see crewmates based on time or places or whatever, but ultimately on just how much enjoyment Luffy gets being around them and vice versa.

I agree that time spent with the crew should not be a factor in this. But that's not what I was takling about since time is a relative factor and we have arcs that last several years which is enough exposure to the audience.

My question was not refering to the "how long?" but rather to the "what?" aspect of having a Strawhat adventure. If we ask what they are doing, then there's a fundamental difference between the crew feeling "where do we go next and what will we encounter there?" and "let's go to X to stop Y from making Z happen!" The former is a romantic adventure facing the unknown. The latter is setting out with a clear objective and destination in mind.

At the end of the day One Piece is a romantic pirate adventure. And if a character finally joins the crew only to provide help in the final battle, then that character whoever it is, pretty much has been denied the exploration part of the voyage and just came to fighting an antagonist. And I wonder what the appeal of that is if we're talking about labeling them Strawhat Pirates.

Well in Yamato's case, it has been stressed she barely knows anything of the world and wants to explore it arguably as much as he did despite that Wano babysitting setback. So Oda has indeed set-up Yamato with the desire to explore, and that indeed it's up too I'm if he wants to give the satisfaction in fulfilling what he had set-up with Yamato's desire to explore. Maybe she can even explore some places we have already seen in addition to places we missed in Paradise.

So indeed, there's a good opportunity there, and Oda can expand on that as long as he's alive and willing, but if Oda doesn't grab it with Yamato, then I can safely say he has failed to satisfyingly follow-up on what he had set-up with Yamato's exploration.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. If just IF the point where Yamato joins is past the exploration phase, what would be the appeal of having her be called a Strawhat Pirate? I'm not saying it's set in stone it would be that late. I'm asking where the appeal is if. And if you say, that you'd feel Oda has failed in such a case then we pretty much agree that there's not really an appeal in having her labelled as a Strawhat Pirate.

I'd see appeal in her interactions and fights alongside the others, which could also satisfy me.

Appealing as this is, one does not need to be a Strawhat Pirate to do that. Many others have fought with and for the Strawhats without being part of the crew. At which point the question still remains what the appeal is to be labeled a Strawhat Pirate when all a character does is things that other non-Strawhat characters have done too.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with being in the Yamato or Carrot camp. This has to do with doing the character justice. And if Yamato is a Strawhat Pirate but we ever see her do under Luffy's flag, I'd consider it a huge slap to her face.

Well I hope what Oda ends up doing with Yamato doesn’t end up as a slap to the face then.

[electricmastro]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Deicide
As I said before, I'm not putting one character against each other with this specific aspect I'm talking about. I just feel that if someone joins or re-joins for that matter than it should be more than just to provide fighting support. No matter how experienced or inexperienced an explorer they are.

Oda isn’t just going to have people join at very last minute just to be fighters for Luffy. He already would have fleets to back him up on that. Oda wanting to embrace adventure as much as he’d want to would do the same as for characters like Yamato like he had for others, especially with Yamato wanting to adventure in the first place, so it will be fine.

[Ivotas]

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

A completely different point I don't get, which is not an x vs. y character debate is: Why do people value the idea of a character joining the crew at the endpoint of the series so much? Let's say Vivi, Yamato and/or Carrot join either at the climax of the series or after the series conclusing in an "...and they all sailed together for many years to come" kind of way. What's the appeal? Isn't the whole point of them being a Strawhat Pirate for us to see them being part in the adventures of the main cast? I cannot see any value in someone joining this late other than bragging rights.

And no, I'm not pointing fingers at the Yamato supporters here. If for example Carrot would join at the end it would mean nothing to me. Sure it be nice to see her team up with the Strawhats again (as it would be nice to see Yamato and Vivi etc. again). But it would mean nothing to in the sense of witnessing her being part the voyages and adventures of the Strawhat Pirates. If she doesn't actually sail through various adventures which we readers can actually witness, the moniker of Strawhat Pirate is an empty husk. That's why I don't get the appeal of the "she will join much later for sure" argument.

For me, I guess I just don't short-sight myself so much to the point that I'll deny other people joining the crew "because it's too late." Understanding people want to see more, for me I've just never seen the crew as having a cut off point. Luffy can make friends with anyone anyone he wants, and any relationship he has with the others shouldn't feel any less relevant or less special because of time. One might as well say Brook or Jinbe don't feel as much like Straw Hats because they haven't been there as long as Zoro has and haven't been to Alabasta or Skypiea or Enies Lobby like how he has either.

I guess I don't see crewmates based on time or places or whatever, but ultimately on just how much enjoyment Luffy gets being around them and vice versa.

I agree that time spent with the crew should not be a factor in this. But that's not what I was takling about since time is a relative factor and we have arcs that last several years which is enough exposure to the audience.

My question was not refering to the "how long?" but rather to the "what?" aspect of having a Strawhat adventure. If we ask what they are doing, then there's a fundamental difference between the crew feeling "where do we go next and what will we encounter there?" and "let's go to X to stop Y from making Z happen!" The former is a romantic adventure facing the unknown. The latter is setting out with a clear objective and destination in mind.

At the end of the day One Piece is a romantic pirate adventure. And if a character finally joins the crew only to provide help in the final battle, then that character whoever it is, pretty much has been denied the exploration part of the voyage and just came to fighting an antagonist. And I wonder what the appeal of that is if we're talking about labeling them Strawhat Pirates.

Well in Yamato's case, it has been stressed she barely knows anything of the world and wants to explore it arguably as much as he did despite that Wano babysitting setback. So Oda has indeed set-up Yamato with the desire to explore, and that indeed it's up too I'm if he wants to give the satisfaction in fulfilling what he had set-up with Yamato's desire to explore. Maybe she can even explore some places we have already seen in addition to places we missed in Paradise.

So indeed, there's a good opportunity there, and Oda can expand on that as long as he's alive and willing, but if Oda doesn't grab it with Yamato, then I can safely say he has failed to satisfyingly follow-up on what he had set-up with Yamato's exploration.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. If just IF the point where Yamato joins is past the exploration phase, what would be the appeal of having her be called a Strawhat Pirate? I'm not saying it's set in stone it would be that late. I'm asking where the appeal is if. And if you say, that you'd feel Oda has failed in such a case then we pretty much agree that there's not really an appeal in having her labelled as a Strawhat Pirate.

I'd see appeal in her interactions and fights alongside the others, which could also satisfy me.

Appealing as this is, one does not need to be a Strawhat Pirate to do that. Many others have fought with and for the Strawhats without being part of the crew. At which point the question still remains what the appeal is to be labeled a Strawhat Pirate when all a character does is things that other non-Strawhat characters have done too.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with being in the Yamato or Carrot camp. This has to do with doing the character justice. And if Yamato is a Strawhat Pirate but we ever see her do under Luffy's flag, I'd consider it a huge slap to her face.

Well I hope what Oda ends up doing with Yamato doesn’t end up as a slap to the face then.

I hope so too. But after everything he's pulled lately I can't really say that I have much hope in Oda that he wouldn't disappoint us again.

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Deicide
As I said before, I'm not putting one character against each other with this specific aspect I'm talking about. I just feel that if someone joins or re-joins for that matter than it should be more than just to provide fighting support. No matter how experienced or inexperienced an explorer they are.

Oda isn’t just going to have people join at very last minute just to be fighters for Luffy. He already would have fleets to back him up on that. Oda wanting to embrace adventure as much as he’d want to would do the same as for characters like Yamato like he had for others, especially with Yamato wanting to adventure in the first place, so it will be fine.

Same argument as above. I wouldn't hope so but I've lost faith in the man. Especially with him wanting to wrap up things quickly there is a chance that he will do that not out of intention but out of necessaty.

[SeaOfHope]

This post is deleted!

[electricmastro]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

A completely different point I don't get, which is not an x vs. y character debate is: Why do people value the idea of a character joining the crew at the endpoint of the series so much? Let's say Vivi, Yamato and/or Carrot join either at the climax of the series or after the series conclusing in an "...and they all sailed together for many years to come" kind of way. What's the appeal? Isn't the whole point of them being a Strawhat Pirate for us to see them being part in the adventures of the main cast? I cannot see any value in someone joining this late other than bragging rights.

And no, I'm not pointing fingers at the Yamato supporters here. If for example Carrot would join at the end it would mean nothing to me. Sure it be nice to see her team up with the Strawhats again (as it would be nice to see Yamato and Vivi etc. again). But it would mean nothing to in the sense of witnessing her being part the voyages and adventures of the Strawhat Pirates. If she doesn't actually sail through various adventures which we readers can actually witness, the moniker of Strawhat Pirate is an empty husk. That's why I don't get the appeal of the "she will join much later for sure" argument.

For me, I guess I just don't short-sight myself so much to the point that I'll deny other people joining the crew "because it's too late." Understanding people want to see more, for me I've just never seen the crew as having a cut off point. Luffy can make friends with anyone anyone he wants, and any relationship he has with the others shouldn't feel any less relevant or less special because of time. One might as well say Brook or Jinbe don't feel as much like Straw Hats because they haven't been there as long as Zoro has and haven't been to Alabasta or Skypiea or Enies Lobby like how he has either.

I guess I don't see crewmates based on time or places or whatever, but ultimately on just how much enjoyment Luffy gets being around them and vice versa.

I agree that time spent with the crew should not be a factor in this. But that's not what I was takling about since time is a relative factor and we have arcs that last several years which is enough exposure to the audience.

My question was not refering to the "how long?" but rather to the "what?" aspect of having a Strawhat adventure. If we ask what they are doing, then there's a fundamental difference between the crew feeling "where do we go next and what will we encounter there?" and "let's go to X to stop Y from making Z happen!" The former is a romantic adventure facing the unknown. The latter is setting out with a clear objective and destination in mind.

At the end of the day One Piece is a romantic pirate adventure. And if a character finally joins the crew only to provide help in the final battle, then that character whoever it is, pretty much has been denied the exploration part of the voyage and just came to fighting an antagonist. And I wonder what the appeal of that is if we're talking about labeling them Strawhat Pirates.

Well in Yamato's case, it has been stressed she barely knows anything of the world and wants to explore it arguably as much as he did despite that Wano babysitting setback. So Oda has indeed set-up Yamato with the desire to explore, and that indeed it's up too I'm if he wants to give the satisfaction in fulfilling what he had set-up with Yamato's desire to explore. Maybe she can even explore some places we have already seen in addition to places we missed in Paradise.

So indeed, there's a good opportunity there, and Oda can expand on that as long as he's alive and willing, but if Oda doesn't grab it with Yamato, then I can safely say he has failed to satisfyingly follow-up on what he had set-up with Yamato's exploration.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. If just IF the point where Yamato joins is past the exploration phase, what would be the appeal of having her be called a Strawhat Pirate? I'm not saying it's set in stone it would be that late. I'm asking where the appeal is if. And if you say, that you'd feel Oda has failed in such a case then we pretty much agree that there's not really an appeal in having her labelled as a Strawhat Pirate.

I'd see appeal in her interactions and fights alongside the others, which could also satisfy me.

Appealing as this is, one does not need to be a Strawhat Pirate to do that. Many others have fought with and for the Strawhats without being part of the crew. At which point the question still remains what the appeal is to be labeled a Strawhat Pirate when all a character does is things that other non-Strawhat characters have done too.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with being in the Yamato or Carrot camp. This has to do with doing the character justice. And if Yamato is a Strawhat Pirate but we ever see her do under Luffy's flag, I'd consider it a huge slap to her face.

Well I hope what Oda ends up doing with Yamato doesn’t end up as a slap to the face then.

I hope so too. But after everything he's pulled lately I can't really say that I have much hope in Oda that he wouldn't disappoint us again.

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Deicide
As I said before, I'm not putting one character against each other with this specific aspect I'm talking about. I just feel that if someone joins or re-joins for that matter than it should be more than just to provide fighting support. No matter how experienced or inexperienced an explorer they are.

Oda isn’t just going to have people join at very last minute just to be fighters for Luffy. He already would have fleets to back him up on that. Oda wanting to embrace adventure as much as he’d want to would do the same as for characters like Yamato like he had for others, especially with Yamato wanting to adventure in the first place, so it will be fine.

Same argument as above. I wouldn't hope so but I've lost faith in the man. Especially with him wanting to wrap up things quickly there is a chance that he will do that not out of intention but out of necessaty.

Well if it’s really about losing your faith, then I’m not sure what I could do about that.

That said, the sooner he’s wanting to wrap things up, then I suppose the sooner we’ll have to see Caribou’s contact after Caribou contacts whomever wants Pluton, and then lead to this whole scenario of Yamato possibly failing to help Wano because that contact is too overwhelming and thus needing someone else to take over, and leave Yamato with less worry.

I’d also suppose this would happen before the Straw Hats go to Laugh Tale too, since Oden also went to Laugh Tale a year after before Roger went there, assuming the parallel goes that far, and that Yamato would also be there for when Luffy decides to revisit places like Roger did with Water 7, in addition to places we missed out the first time around.

[Shin10 Bukuro]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

Oh, this isn't just a Yamato thing. It applies to anyone's who in the "offboard crew".

Just take a look at Vivi. The goodbye seen always was a "until the day we all travel together again" sort of parting. And the time for her to come back draws nearer. But the way how things are framed it and how Oda is speeding things up, chances are high it will be an endgame thing too. Which again begs the question, what's the appeal?

Vivi wasn't there to see a ship fall from the sky, she didn't make up to sky island, she didn't join a sports event to keep the crew from being snatched away, didn't see the wonderous water city, didn't invade a government island, didn't go on a ghost adventure, didn't have an adventure on the sea floor, didn't step foot on islands inhabited by toys, anthropomorphic animals or animated everyday objects. She didn't journey through any of this, even though she's been an "offboard crewmember" through all of this. What's the point?

It's not about Yamato or Vivi or Carrot. It's about giving a new character time to actually have part in the exploration of the unknown if they become a Strawhat Pirate. Just coming back for a fight will always make them seem like lesser Strawhats. Neither of the three nor whoever else will be a candidate of equal caliber deserves that.

I agree entirely. Any Strawhat crew member who joins this late is going to struggle to really feel like they "fit" based simply on overall lack of adventures and panel-time.

So, the question becomes: Is there going to be an 11th crewmate? If so, who's the best candidate?

I don't know if there's ever going to be an 11th Strawhat crewmate. But I think the best option is Vivi because she's sailed with them a bit, is on the Youtube banner/etc, and is rejoining the plot right in time for the final arc. That edges out other options as far as I can tell.

I think it all boils down to 3 options: Either Jinbe is the final crewmate, a previously-established character is the final crewmate, or a brand-new character will become the final crewmate.

[Ivotas]

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

A completely different point I don't get, which is not an x vs. y character debate is: Why do people value the idea of a character joining the crew at the endpoint of the series so much? Let's say Vivi, Yamato and/or Carrot join either at the climax of the series or after the series conclusing in an "...and they all sailed together for many years to come" kind of way. What's the appeal? Isn't the whole point of them being a Strawhat Pirate for us to see them being part in the adventures of the main cast? I cannot see any value in someone joining this late other than bragging rights.

And no, I'm not pointing fingers at the Yamato supporters here. If for example Carrot would join at the end it would mean nothing to me. Sure it be nice to see her team up with the Strawhats again (as it would be nice to see Yamato and Vivi etc. again). But it would mean nothing to in the sense of witnessing her being part the voyages and adventures of the Strawhat Pirates. If she doesn't actually sail through various adventures which we readers can actually witness, the moniker of Strawhat Pirate is an empty husk. That's why I don't get the appeal of the "she will join much later for sure" argument.

For me, I guess I just don't short-sight myself so much to the point that I'll deny other people joining the crew "because it's too late." Understanding people want to see more, for me I've just never seen the crew as having a cut off point. Luffy can make friends with anyone anyone he wants, and any relationship he has with the others shouldn't feel any less relevant or less special because of time. One might as well say Brook or Jinbe don't feel as much like Straw Hats because they haven't been there as long as Zoro has and haven't been to Alabasta or Skypiea or Enies Lobby like how he has either.

I guess I don't see crewmates based on time or places or whatever, but ultimately on just how much enjoyment Luffy gets being around them and vice versa.

I agree that time spent with the crew should not be a factor in this. But that's not what I was takling about since time is a relative factor and we have arcs that last several years which is enough exposure to the audience.

My question was not refering to the "how long?" but rather to the "what?" aspect of having a Strawhat adventure. If we ask what they are doing, then there's a fundamental difference between the crew feeling "where do we go next and what will we encounter there?" and "let's go to X to stop Y from making Z happen!" The former is a romantic adventure facing the unknown. The latter is setting out with a clear objective and destination in mind.

At the end of the day One Piece is a romantic pirate adventure. And if a character finally joins the crew only to provide help in the final battle, then that character whoever it is, pretty much has been denied the exploration part of the voyage and just came to fighting an antagonist. And I wonder what the appeal of that is if we're talking about labeling them Strawhat Pirates.

Well in Yamato's case, it has been stressed she barely knows anything of the world and wants to explore it arguably as much as he did despite that Wano babysitting setback. So Oda has indeed set-up Yamato with the desire to explore, and that indeed it's up too I'm if he wants to give the satisfaction in fulfilling what he had set-up with Yamato's desire to explore. Maybe she can even explore some places we have already seen in addition to places we missed in Paradise.

So indeed, there's a good opportunity there, and Oda can expand on that as long as he's alive and willing, but if Oda doesn't grab it with Yamato, then I can safely say he has failed to satisfyingly follow-up on what he had set-up with Yamato's exploration.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. If just IF the point where Yamato joins is past the exploration phase, what would be the appeal of having her be called a Strawhat Pirate? I'm not saying it's set in stone it would be that late. I'm asking where the appeal is if. And if you say, that you'd feel Oda has failed in such a case then we pretty much agree that there's not really an appeal in having her labelled as a Strawhat Pirate.

I'd see appeal in her interactions and fights alongside the others, which could also satisfy me.

Appealing as this is, one does not need to be a Strawhat Pirate to do that. Many others have fought with and for the Strawhats without being part of the crew. At which point the question still remains what the appeal is to be labeled a Strawhat Pirate when all a character does is things that other non-Strawhat characters have done too.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with being in the Yamato or Carrot camp. This has to do with doing the character justice. And if Yamato is a Strawhat Pirate but we ever see her do under Luffy's flag, I'd consider it a huge slap to her face.

Well I hope what Oda ends up doing with Yamato doesn’t end up as a slap to the face then.

I hope so too. But after everything he's pulled lately I can't really say that I have much hope in Oda that he wouldn't disappoint us again.

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Deicide
As I said before, I'm not putting one character against each other with this specific aspect I'm talking about. I just feel that if someone joins or re-joins for that matter than it should be more than just to provide fighting support. No matter how experienced or inexperienced an explorer they are.

Oda isn’t just going to have people join at very last minute just to be fighters for Luffy. He already would have fleets to back him up on that. Oda wanting to embrace adventure as much as he’d want to would do the same as for characters like Yamato like he had for others, especially with Yamato wanting to adventure in the first place, so it will be fine.

Same argument as above. I wouldn't hope so but I've lost faith in the man. Especially with him wanting to wrap up things quickly there is a chance that he will do that not out of intention but out of necessaty.

Well if it’s really about losing your faith, then I’m not sure what I could do about that.

That said, the sooner he’s wanting to wrap things up, then I suppose the sooner we’ll have to see Caribou’s contact after Caribou contacts whomever wants Pluton, and then lead to this whole scenario of Yamato possibly failing to help Wano because that contact is too overwhelming and thus needing someone else to take over, and leave Yamato with less worry.

I’d also suppose this would happen before the Straw Hats go to Laugh Tale too, since Oden also went to Laugh Tale a year after before Roger went there, assuming the parallel goes that far, and that Yamato would also be there for when Luffy decides to revisit places like Roger did with Water 7, in addition to places we missed out the first time around.

The losing faith thing is completely my personal outlook on Oda's skills as a writer. But that's a different discussion alltogether. My original question, which was at the beginning of this conversation, was what the appeal of having a character join at the endgame is. I didn't say that such a scenario is set in stone and bound to happen. Just asking in case if.

And so far none have really provided an answer to that. Sure you guys made all good points on why you think they would join earlier or what good interactions we would get out of them if they joined just for the fight. But so far there hasn't been any point made about why the label Strawhat Pirate is so appealing for the endgame. So I take it that there is none.

@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

Oh, this isn't just a Yamato thing. It applies to anyone's who in the "offboard crew".

Just take a look at Vivi. The goodbye seen always was a "until the day we all travel together again" sort of parting. And the time for her to come back draws nearer. But the way how things are framed it and how Oda is speeding things up, chances are high it will be an endgame thing too. Which again begs the question, what's the appeal?

Vivi wasn't there to see a ship fall from the sky, she didn't make up to sky island, she didn't join a sports event to keep the crew from being snatched away, didn't see the wonderous water city, didn't invade a government island, didn't go on a ghost adventure, didn't have an adventure on the sea floor, didn't step foot on islands inhabited by toys, anthropomorphic animals or animated everyday objects. She didn't journey through any of this, even though she's been an "offboard crewmember" through all of this. What's the point?

It's not about Yamato or Vivi or Carrot. It's about giving a new character time to actually have part in the exploration of the unknown if they become a Strawhat Pirate. Just coming back for a fight will always make them seem like lesser Strawhats. Neither of the three nor whoever else will be a candidate of equal caliber deserves that.

I agree entirely. Any Strawhat crew member who joins this late is going to struggle to really feel like they "fit" based simply on overall lack of adventures and panel-time.

So, the question becomes: Is there going to be an 11th crewmate? If so, who's the best candidate?

I don't know if there's ever going to be an 11th Strawhat crewmate. But I think the best option is Vivi because she's sailed with them a bit, is on the Youtube banner/etc, and is rejoining the plot right in time for the final arc. That edges out other options as far as I can tell.

I think it all boils down to 3 options: Either Jinbe is the final crewmate, a previously-established character is the final crewmate, or a brand-new character will become the final crewmate.

I still think that Oda wants to go through with the "I want ten people" statement by Luffy. So whoever joins it should be sooner rather than later to experience at least a bit of the adventure.

Also a different question on the 11th. Didn't some one (perhaps Greg?) say something several years ago that Oda made a statement about the 9th and 10th crewmate (AKA 10th and 11th Strawhat) would join in quick succession? Also even long before that wasn't there something along the lines of "it might be more than the expected ten"? I seem to remember reading something along the lines but at this point I'm really not sure if my memory serves me well here. Anybody have any idea what I'm talking about?

[Deicide]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

My original question, which was at the beginning of this conversation, was what the appeal of having a character join at the endgame is. I didn't say that such a scenario is set in stone and bound to happen. Just asking in case if.

I think it has to do with the process of becoming a Straw Hat. The idea of getting an arc about your favorite, to see its backstory expanded and other readers starting to like it more. Also, since the character gets elevated to "protagonist", he will stick around and get more chances to shine, and he will be interacting with the rest of the crew regularly.

The character also gets merch, gets to be featured in movies (which will keep coming)

I think being near the end of the story has very little impact in that. We still have 5-ish years ahead. And, since this is a new saga, it may be totally different from the endless ally-fest that was the last one. I feel it's very likely we will get more of the crew in this last journey, and thus getting one more character in the journey is very appealing.

Obviously, for someone to be the 11th, it must happen sooner than later. The more it takes for the character to be (re)introduced and fleshed out, the less likely it becomes.

[Deicide]

Since we have surprisingly little to talk about lately, I'll bring back this subject:

This image always intrigued me. It's the crew as planned just before the series started. Brook was called Skirt and was the 8th. Franky had another name as well.

You can see lines erased on Franky's arm indicating at least one character was hidden. Another sign of erasure from the sketch is that the lines marking heights disappear in the left half, exacly where more characters could fit. Proto-Jinbe was likely there, but even adding him behind Luffy/Zoro/Sanji, it feels somewhat empty.

Plus, with Jinbe there, the image still feels uneven, with 6 characters on the right and only 4 to the left.

Was there an 11th character as well?

Another point is that there's an older sketch that had Jinbe erased when this same picture was published.

Later, when Jinbe joined, the older sketch was presented with everyone, revealing the old fishman helmsman character design that was hidden initially.

But that first image, the sketch from just before the series began, never got updated. Is there someone we are not allowed to see yet?

(Notice how the earlier sketch gets balanced with 5 crewmates to each half. Why would the later one have 4/6 and not 5/5? Wouldn't 5/6 make more sense?)

My guess is that proto-Jimbe was meant to be behind Zoro/Luffy, and a tall character was meant to be behind/between Sanji/Zoro. More or less like this:

Of course, even if there was an 11th character there, it could have evolved into something else, like Brook, Franky and Jinbe evolved from that sketch. Or it could have been dropped, who knows?

Anyway, I hope one day we get to see the real original sketch.

[Ivotas]

That actually makes a lot of sense. Considering group shot composition it's really uneven. And since it happened with the fishman helmsman I see no reason why the 10th shouldn't have been treated the same.

That said Brooks original name was great. Skirt might have been the prototype to what would later become the panties joke.^^

[electricmastro]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

A completely different point I don't get, which is not an x vs. y character debate is: Why do people value the idea of a character joining the crew at the endpoint of the series so much? Let's say Vivi, Yamato and/or Carrot join either at the climax of the series or after the series conclusing in an "...and they all sailed together for many years to come" kind of way. What's the appeal? Isn't the whole point of them being a Strawhat Pirate for us to see them being part in the adventures of the main cast? I cannot see any value in someone joining this late other than bragging rights.

And no, I'm not pointing fingers at the Yamato supporters here. If for example Carrot would join at the end it would mean nothing to me. Sure it be nice to see her team up with the Strawhats again (as it would be nice to see Yamato and Vivi etc. again). But it would mean nothing to in the sense of witnessing her being part the voyages and adventures of the Strawhat Pirates. If she doesn't actually sail through various adventures which we readers can actually witness, the moniker of Strawhat Pirate is an empty husk. That's why I don't get the appeal of the "she will join much later for sure" argument.

For me, I guess I just don't short-sight myself so much to the point that I'll deny other people joining the crew "because it's too late." Understanding people want to see more, for me I've just never seen the crew as having a cut off point. Luffy can make friends with anyone anyone he wants, and any relationship he has with the others shouldn't feel any less relevant or less special because of time. One might as well say Brook or Jinbe don't feel as much like Straw Hats because they haven't been there as long as Zoro has and haven't been to Alabasta or Skypiea or Enies Lobby like how he has either.

I guess I don't see crewmates based on time or places or whatever, but ultimately on just how much enjoyment Luffy gets being around them and vice versa.

I agree that time spent with the crew should not be a factor in this. But that's not what I was takling about since time is a relative factor and we have arcs that last several years which is enough exposure to the audience.

My question was not refering to the "how long?" but rather to the "what?" aspect of having a Strawhat adventure. If we ask what they are doing, then there's a fundamental difference between the crew feeling "where do we go next and what will we encounter there?" and "let's go to X to stop Y from making Z happen!" The former is a romantic adventure facing the unknown. The latter is setting out with a clear objective and destination in mind.

At the end of the day One Piece is a romantic pirate adventure. And if a character finally joins the crew only to provide help in the final battle, then that character whoever it is, pretty much has been denied the exploration part of the voyage and just came to fighting an antagonist. And I wonder what the appeal of that is if we're talking about labeling them Strawhat Pirates.

Well in Yamato's case, it has been stressed she barely knows anything of the world and wants to explore it arguably as much as he did despite that Wano babysitting setback. So Oda has indeed set-up Yamato with the desire to explore, and that indeed it's up too I'm if he wants to give the satisfaction in fulfilling what he had set-up with Yamato's desire to explore. Maybe she can even explore some places we have already seen in addition to places we missed in Paradise.

So indeed, there's a good opportunity there, and Oda can expand on that as long as he's alive and willing, but if Oda doesn't grab it with Yamato, then I can safely say he has failed to satisfyingly follow-up on what he had set-up with Yamato's exploration.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. If just IF the point where Yamato joins is past the exploration phase, what would be the appeal of having her be called a Strawhat Pirate? I'm not saying it's set in stone it would be that late. I'm asking where the appeal is if. And if you say, that you'd feel Oda has failed in such a case then we pretty much agree that there's not really an appeal in having her labelled as a Strawhat Pirate.

I'd see appeal in her interactions and fights alongside the others, which could also satisfy me.

Appealing as this is, one does not need to be a Strawhat Pirate to do that. Many others have fought with and for the Strawhats without being part of the crew. At which point the question still remains what the appeal is to be labeled a Strawhat Pirate when all a character does is things that other non-Strawhat characters have done too.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with being in the Yamato or Carrot camp. This has to do with doing the character justice. And if Yamato is a Strawhat Pirate but we ever see her do under Luffy's flag, I'd consider it a huge slap to her face.

Well I hope what Oda ends up doing with Yamato doesn’t end up as a slap to the face then.

I hope so too. But after everything he's pulled lately I can't really say that I have much hope in Oda that he wouldn't disappoint us again.

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Deicide
As I said before, I'm not putting one character against each other with this specific aspect I'm talking about. I just feel that if someone joins or re-joins for that matter than it should be more than just to provide fighting support. No matter how experienced or inexperienced an explorer they are.

Oda isn’t just going to have people join at very last minute just to be fighters for Luffy. He already would have fleets to back him up on that. Oda wanting to embrace adventure as much as he’d want to would do the same as for characters like Yamato like he had for others, especially with Yamato wanting to adventure in the first place, so it will be fine.

Same argument as above. I wouldn't hope so but I've lost faith in the man. Especially with him wanting to wrap up things quickly there is a chance that he will do that not out of intention but out of necessaty.

Well if it’s really about losing your faith, then I’m not sure what I could do about that.

That said, the sooner he’s wanting to wrap things up, then I suppose the sooner we’ll have to see Caribou’s contact after Caribou contacts whomever wants Pluton, and then lead to this whole scenario of Yamato possibly failing to help Wano because that contact is too overwhelming and thus needing someone else to take over, and leave Yamato with less worry.

I’d also suppose this would happen before the Straw Hats go to Laugh Tale too, since Oden also went to Laugh Tale a year after before Roger went there, assuming the parallel goes that far, and that Yamato would also be there for when Luffy decides to revisit places like Roger did with Water 7, in addition to places we missed out the first time around.

The losing faith thing is completely my personal outlook on Oda's skills as a writer. But that's a different discussion alltogether. My original question, which was at the beginning of this conversation, was what the appeal of having a character join at the endgame is. I didn't say that such a scenario is set in stone and bound to happen. Just asking in case if.

And so far none have really provided an answer to that. Sure you guys made all good points on why you think they would join earlier or what good interactions we would get out of them if they joined just for the fight. But so far there hasn't been any point made about why the label Strawhat Pirate is so appealing for the endgame. So I take it that there is none.

@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

Oh, this isn't just a Yamato thing. It applies to anyone's who in the "offboard crew".

Just take a look at Vivi. The goodbye seen always was a "until the day we all travel together again" sort of parting. And the time for her to come back draws nearer. But the way how things are framed it and how Oda is speeding things up, chances are high it will be an endgame thing too. Which again begs the question, what's the appeal?

Vivi wasn't there to see a ship fall from the sky, she didn't make up to sky island, she didn't join a sports event to keep the crew from being snatched away, didn't see the wonderous water city, didn't invade a government island, didn't go on a ghost adventure, didn't have an adventure on the sea floor, didn't step foot on islands inhabited by toys, anthropomorphic animals or animated everyday objects. She didn't journey through any of this, even though she's been an "offboard crewmember" through all of this. What's the point?

It's not about Yamato or Vivi or Carrot. It's about giving a new character time to actually have part in the exploration of the unknown if they become a Strawhat Pirate. Just coming back for a fight will always make them seem like lesser Strawhats. Neither of the three nor whoever else will be a candidate of equal caliber deserves that.

I agree entirely. Any Strawhat crew member who joins this late is going to struggle to really feel like they "fit" based simply on overall lack of adventures and panel-time.

So, the question becomes: Is there going to be an 11th crewmate? If so, who's the best candidate?

I don't know if there's ever going to be an 11th Strawhat crewmate. But I think the best option is Vivi because she's sailed with them a bit, is on the Youtube banner/etc, and is rejoining the plot right in time for the final arc. That edges out other options as far as I can tell.

I think it all boils down to 3 options: Either Jinbe is the final crewmate, a previously-established character is the final crewmate, or a brand-new character will become the final crewmate.

I still think that Oda wants to go through with the "I want ten people" statement by Luffy. So whoever joins it should be sooner rather than later to experience at least a bit of the adventure.

Also a different question on the 11th. Didn't some one (perhaps Greg?) say something several years ago that Oda made a statement about the 9th and 10th crewmate (AKA 10th and 11th Strawhat) would join in quick succession? Also even long before that wasn't there something along the lines of "it might be more than the expected ten"? I seem to remember reading something along the lines but at this point I'm really not sure if my memory serves me well here. Anybody have any idea what I'm talking about?

I think if anything an 11th crewmate would potentially showcase how far Luffy has come. All of Luffy’s crew mates so far and know him from before the time skip, but still making someone apart of the crew even if they haven’t known him for that long goes to show that anyone can join anytime, and how Luffy being the accepting guy he is accepting someone from far into the New World and having that person feel just as much as part of the crew but still feeling at home would really showcase how special it is in how close Luffy can get people like that.

Sorry if it doesn’t make sense. If you don’t have an answer know, then I hope you find it.

[electricmastro]

It’s interesting how Shanks, Ace, Sabo, Yamato, and Luffy’s crew are the only ones who’ve been shown to know what Luffy’s dream is, and suggests as if Yamato is just as relevant to Luffy as his role model, brothers, and crew are, even though Yamato is just a Wano babysitter. Regardless of how people view Yamato, one has to wonder why Oda framed things this way if he’s not even going to wait for Vivi to be part of this special moment of just now getting to know Luffy's overall dream, or is the moment not meant to be special in the first place?

[theackwardstation]

In my opinion, Carrot's chances to join the crew have ended this chapter. Days have passed since they left Wano, Carrot's nowhere in sight, it doesn't make sense for her to still be inside a barril, so that's it.

And I subscribe to the notion that the revelation of Luffy's dream to his crewmates gives off the vibe of the SH crew being finally complete. It's not only the fact itself in vacuum, but the timing in general, happening just as Jimbe's finally aboard the Sunny for his first travel, just as the final saga starts, and how sacred this moment feels after more than a thousand chapters to land.

There's an argument that Yamato's chances to comeback are still intact though, and I agree that his chances to rejoin the group are still good due to chapter 1000.

[electricmastro]

@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

In my opinion, Carrot's chances to join the crew have ended this chapter. Days have passed since they left Wano, Carrot's nowhere in sight, it doesn't make sense for her to still be inside a barril, so that's it.

And I subscribe to the notion that the revelation of Luffy's dream to his crewmates gives off the vibe of the SH crew being finally complete. It's not only the fact itself in vacuum, but the timing in general, happening just as Jimbe's finally aboard the Sunny for his first travel, just as the final saga starts, and how sacred this moment feels after more than a thousand chapters to land.

There's an argument that Yamato's chances to comeback are still intact though, and I agree that his chances to rejoin the group are still good due to chapter 1000.

You're right. Luffy didn't even say what his overall dream is in Chapter 100 when he and the others were voicing their dreams near the barrel just before getting to the Grand Line, so to just let the others into the know now is noteworthy all things considered.

[Ivotas]

Yep, Carrot's officially out with this chapter. There's no two ways about it. I'd be lying if I'd say i'm not disappointed that she didn't join. But still I have no problems accepting that that's the way Oda wants it.

What I'm having a huge problem however is Oda taking a huge dump on the character. If he just would have had her part ways with the Strawhats at the beginning of the raid and be with the Minks from the get go it would have been a better choice as she ended up back with Wanda after all.

But nope, we get her continuing to tag along with the Strawhat, only to not play a role in the Nami/Usopp vs Ulti/Pahe One fight. Rather we have an Emperor do the heavy lifting. Then we get Carrot in a handicap fight against who we could call her nemesis from the previous arc. She loses having the opponent claim they would have won if the moonlight wasn't blocked off. Then Neko who takes over also nearly loses for the same reason. But he wins because the Haki airsplit gives him a second chance. If that's the deciding factor then Oda could have just given the wins to the girls.

But we're not done yet. Carrot achieved ultimately nothing and to top it all of she get's "rewarded" with being made the new ruler of the Minks. Why? Because apparently Neko and Inu can't be rulers if they are away to protect Momo. So they figured they make Carrot - the one Mink that wants to go out adventuring and see the world - be the new ruler? They literally retire because they know they can't keep ruling if they want be with Momo and yet they have no problems chaining the young inexperienced free spirited rabbit with exactly the same responsibility.

But wait, there's still more. Of all the characters that sailed with the Strawhats Carrot is the only character that didn't get a 'goodbye' moment. Even Johnny and Yosaku got one. It might be nothing spectacular but at least it happened on screen. But Carrot's 'goodbye' get's just off screened. What the actual hell Oda?

I know Yamato fans are rightfully disappointed on how things turned out. But at least Yamato got a) to chose for herself, b) can leave whenever she feels the time is right and c) she already has more to explore in Wano than when she was cuffed in Onigashima. Carrot in comparison just got chained by responsilibilty she didn't ask for and she never expressed any interest in. Utterly disappointing. This rant has nothing to do with the crewmate discussion.

[electricmastro]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

I know Yamato fans are rightfully disappointed on how things turned out. But at least Yamato got a) to chose for herself, b) can leave whenever she feels the time is right and c) she already has more to explore in Wano than when she was cuffed in Onigashima.

Like I mentioned, I've gotten the suspicion it may possibly take a turn for the worse in case Yamato is repressing her dream and forcing herself to be happy with something that goes against her heart's desire, even if it's with good intentions.

But of course, I could be completely wrong, and am willing to be proven as such.

[Ivotas]

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

I know Yamato fans are rightfully disappointed on how things turned out. But at least Yamato got a) to chose for herself, b) can leave whenever she feels the time is right and c) she already has more to explore in Wano than when she was cuffed in Onigashima.

Like I mentioned, I've gotten the suspicion it may possibly take a turn for the worse in case Yamato is repressing her dream and forcing herself to be happy with something that goes against her heart's desire, even if it's with good intentions.

But of course, I could be completely wrong, and am willing to be proven as such.

The point I was trying to make is that even though Yamato got dumped on by Oda she still ended up much better than Carrot who pretty much got the Golgathan sent after her.

[electricmastro]

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Ivotas said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

I know Yamato fans are rightfully disappointed on how things turned out. But at least Yamato got a) to chose for herself, b) can leave whenever she feels the time is right and c) she already has more to explore in Wano than when she was cuffed in Onigashima.

Like I mentioned, I've gotten the suspicion it may possibly take a turn for the worse in case Yamato is repressing her dream and forcing herself to be happy with something that goes against her heart's desire, even if it's with good intentions.

But of course, I could be completely wrong, and am willing to be proven as such.

The point I was trying to make is that even though Yamato got dumped on by Oda she still ended up much better than Carrot who pretty much got the Golgathan sent after her.

Well, I'll go on with complete speculation once again by saying that the fact that Carrot hasn't shown up on the ship at this point could possibly mean that she did accept to help Zou out of her own will, despite what we thought about her never wanting accept, because she can either choose to run away or not run away.

But if there's a scenario where she can't run away from the Minks at all, then maybe this is meant to tell us that the the Minks are willing to treat Carrot like their own slave who's not allowed to run away from them as their own makeshift ruler.

Luffy and the others could have possibly intervened in case things got that heated between Carrot and the Minks, so until it becomes clear to me that the Minks were forcing Carrot to serve them, then I'll presume for the time being that Carrot choose to help them somehow out of her own will, like how Yamato chose to help Wano out of her own will, whether as a ruler or another way, as jarring as this all is.

[Galleon Panthera]

@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

In my opinion, Carrot's chances to join the crew have ended this chapter. Days have passed since they left Wano, Carrot's nowhere in sight, it doesn't make sense for her to still be inside a barril, so that's it.

And I subscribe to the notion that the revelation of Luffy's dream to his crewmates gives off the vibe of the SH crew being finally complete. It's not only the fact itself in vacuum, but the timing in general, happening just as Jimbe's finally aboard the Sunny for his first travel, just as the final saga starts, and how sacred this moment feels after more than a thousand chapters to land.

There's an argument that Yamato's chances to comeback are still intact though, and I agree that his chances to rejoin the group are still good due to chapter 1000.

Nah...after the stuff with Carrot, I'm absolutely not putting any faith in any ideas for a new Crewmate anymore. That also includes Yamato. In fact, given how there was a reaction shot to the Sunny, and how the ship is also considered a crewmate, pretty much already tells me that the crew is complete.

I will say it here and now, and this will be my easiest prediction yet....there will no new crewmate at all anymore. We are in the Endgame now, so all the pieces have to be complete now and have been put in their right places.

So no Yamato, no Hancock, no Bonney, no Urouge, absolutely no one is joining anymore. This is pretty much it. People can disagree with me if they want, that is fine, but this is where I stand, pretty much.

[theackwardstation]

The crew being finished with Jimbe is totally plausible, and I agree that I see no chances for Hancock, Bonney, Carrot, Smoker, etc. I just think Yamato feels like an weird exception (not in the sense that it's guaranteed that he'll join) because he already knows Luffy's dream and that scene in chapter 1000 was kind of a big deal.

[Johnny B. Decent]

I'm in the camp of we have the full assembled crew now. Also, probably because I think it will take at least 2 or 3 people to handle Wolf, anyways.

[electricmastro]

@Galleon-Panthera said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

In my opinion, Carrot's chances to join the crew have ended this chapter. Days have passed since they left Wano, Carrot's nowhere in sight, it doesn't make sense for her to still be inside a barril, so that's it.

And I subscribe to the notion that the revelation of Luffy's dream to his crewmates gives off the vibe of the SH crew being finally complete. It's not only the fact itself in vacuum, but the timing in general, happening just as Jimbe's finally aboard the Sunny for his first travel, just as the final saga starts, and how sacred this moment feels after more than a thousand chapters to land.

There's an argument that Yamato's chances to comeback are still intact though, and I agree that his chances to rejoin the group are still good due to chapter 1000.

Nah...after the stuff with Carrot, I'm absolutely not putting any faith in any ideas for a new Crewmate anymore. That also includes Yamato. In fact, given how there was a reaction shot to the Sunny, and how the ship is also considered a crewmate, pretty much already tells me that the crew is complete.

I will say it here and now, and this will be my easiest prediction yet....there will no new crewmate at all anymore. We are in the Endgame now, so all the pieces have to be complete now and have been put in their right places.

So no Yamato, no Hancock, no Bonney, no Urouge, absolutely no one is joining anymore. This is pretty much it. People can disagree with me if they want, that is fine, but this is where I stand, pretty much.

Well I guess there should be no more threads about crewmates ever again then. lol

[Shin10 Bukuro]

I'm of the opinion that all the "official" crewmates are done with. That is, all the ones who are shown on merchandise/color spreads/etc, have a specific role on the ship, and get recognized as one of Luffy's "commanders."

However, I also think having a character "tag along" with the crew is a long-held tradition that will continue on in the final saga, and said character will be recognized by the community as "the de facto 11th crewmate" even if they do not appear on color spreads/etc. Similar to how the Grand Fleet are not officially recognized by Luffy, yet are understood to be his fleet.

I think it's the easiest route Oda can take, and with so much work hanging over his head, he will settle for it rather than shoehorning another character in.

[electricmastro]

@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

The crew being finished with Jimbe is totally plausible, and I agree that I see no chances for Hancock, Bonney, Carrot, Smoker, etc. I just think Yamato feels like an weird exception (not in the sense that it's guaranteed that he'll join) because he already knows Luffy's dream and that scene in chapter 1000 was kind of a big deal.

I personally think it would have been more plausible had all that freedom/dream narrative not have happened with Yamato, and yet it did, so if Yamato won't be a crewmate and Vivi joining back up too late to bond with Franky, Brook, or Jinbe also gets in the way of that for that matter, then what are we left to think anyway?

[Galleon Panthera]

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Galleon-Panthera said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

In my opinion, Carrot's chances to join the crew have ended this chapter. Days have passed since they left Wano, Carrot's nowhere in sight, it doesn't make sense for her to still be inside a barril, so that's it.

And I subscribe to the notion that the revelation of Luffy's dream to his crewmates gives off the vibe of the SH crew being finally complete. It's not only the fact itself in vacuum, but the timing in general, happening just as Jimbe's finally aboard the Sunny for his first travel, just as the final saga starts, and how sacred this moment feels after more than a thousand chapters to land.

There's an argument that Yamato's chances to comeback are still intact though, and I agree that his chances to rejoin the group are still good due to chapter 1000.

Nah...after the stuff with Carrot, I'm absolutely not putting any faith in any ideas for a new Crewmate anymore. That also includes Yamato. In fact, given how there was a reaction shot to the Sunny, and how the ship is also considered a crewmate, pretty much already tells me that the crew is complete.

I will say it here and now, and this will be my easiest prediction yet....there will no new crewmate at all anymore. We are in the Endgame now, so all the pieces have to be complete now and have been put in their right places.

So no Yamato, no Hancock, no Bonney, no Urouge, absolutely no one is joining anymore. This is pretty much it. People can disagree with me if they want, that is fine, but this is where I stand, pretty much.

Well I guess there should be no more threads about crewmates ever again then.

I'm not saying no one is allowed to have other choices. If you want, you can keep continuing on the discussion. That is fine. But for me, personally, I'm done with the theorizing or whatever. That is why I'm saying no one is joining anymore. The crew is final in my eyes.

If you still think Yamato is joining or someone else entirely, more power to you. For me, I'm pretty much done.

At this point, I just want the story's mysteries getting revealed one after the other, rather than thinking about something like "the next crewmate". Hell, how long are we going to wait until we FINALLY see Vegapunk's design and his character shine instead of all these vague hints we have been getting?

To me, that is more important now than anything else. Give me the answers to the yet-to-be-solved mysteries of the OPverse.

[electricmastro]

@Galleon-Panthera said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Galleon-Panthera said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

In my opinion, Carrot's chances to join the crew have ended this chapter. Days have passed since they left Wano, Carrot's nowhere in sight, it doesn't make sense for her to still be inside a barril, so that's it.

And I subscribe to the notion that the revelation of Luffy's dream to his crewmates gives off the vibe of the SH crew being finally complete. It's not only the fact itself in vacuum, but the timing in general, happening just as Jimbe's finally aboard the Sunny for his first travel, just as the final saga starts, and how sacred this moment feels after more than a thousand chapters to land.

There's an argument that Yamato's chances to comeback are still intact though, and I agree that his chances to rejoin the group are still good due to chapter 1000.

Nah...after the stuff with Carrot, I'm absolutely not putting any faith in any ideas for a new Crewmate anymore. That also includes Yamato. In fact, given how there was a reaction shot to the Sunny, and how the ship is also considered a crewmate, pretty much already tells me that the crew is complete.

I will say it here and now, and this will be my easiest prediction yet....there will no new crewmate at all anymore. We are in the Endgame now, so all the pieces have to be complete now and have been put in their right places.

So no Yamato, no Hancock, no Bonney, no Urouge, absolutely no one is joining anymore. This is pretty much it. People can disagree with me if they want, that is fine, but this is where I stand, pretty much.

Well I guess there should be no more threads about crewmates ever again then.

I'm not saying no one is allowed to have other choices. If you want, you can keep continuing on the discussion. That is fine. But for me, personally, I'm done with the theorizing or whatever. That is why I'm saying no one is joining anymore. The crew is final in my eyes.

If you still think Yamato is joining or someone else entirely, more power to you. For me, I'm pretty much done.

At this point, I just want the story's mysteries getting revealed one after the other, rather than thinking about something like "the next crewmate". Hell, how long are we going to wait until we FINALLY see Vegapunk's design and his character shine instead of all these vague hints we have been getting?

To me, that is more important now than anything else. Give me the answers to the yet-to-be-solved mysteries of the OPverse.

Well, then I suppose we won't being you around this thread then, based on what you're saying, I guess?

If that's the truth, then see ya later. lol

[Zin Magala]

Geez, where to start.....

Luffy's Dream: I agree with others that this was a big deal. I wouldn't go as far as saying close the thread, but it makes no sense for Oda to do this now if a new crew member is around the corner. You can remove this scene from the chapter and it changes nothing. This was definitely a statement on Oda's part and I don't see Luffy revealing his dream until he is mid confrontation with one of the remaining antagonists. This was a pretty big loss for most of the candidates.

Carrot: She's done. I can't see how anyone can be on the Carrot train after this chapter. It has been days since Wano and Luffy just revealed his dream to the crew with no Carrot in sight. I'm sorry, Carrot fans, Oda did you all dirty and you deserve a goodbye scene.

Bonney: I never believed she was crewmate material and with her showing up after the Luffy's dream part, I stand by that opinion. lol

Vivi: This chapter points to us not reuniting with Vivi for a while. Vivi is going to be off doing her own thing and will reunite with the crew when it's Final War time. I'm excited to see what Oda has plan for her.

Yamato: I feel like Yamato got a win this week. Maybe even multiple ones? Yamato now shares something with the entire crew in Luffy's dream. That something no other candidates can say. Caribou being on the ship means his contact coming for Wano is in play and if Imu does have Uranus, that means someone is coming for Pluton. If someone attacks Wano then the SHs are obligated to come back for aid, otherwise their flag has no meaning. We'll see what happens when Caribou's contact is revealed.

Right now I'm sticking with the "No One Joining" train, mostly because the idea of someone joining right before the Final War starts sounds terrible to me. If we do end up going back to Wano, I'll probably hop over to the Yamato train. I'm not going to be happy though because Oda clearly chose surprise over spending time with the crew. If someone new joins, I think fans should get to see at least one adventure with the completed crew, outside of war stuff.

[Cockycent]

Carrot may still join the SH crew. I don't see a closed door. Caribou was not a discussion when 1059 came out. Now he's in a barrel.

[electricmastro]

@Zin-Magala said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

Geez, where to start.....

Yamato: I feel like Yamato got a win this week. Maybe even multiple ones? Yamato now shares something with the entire crew in Luffy's dream. That something no other candidates can say. Caribou being on the ship means his contact coming for Wano is in play and if Imu does have Uranus, that means someone is coming for Pluton. If someone attacks Wano then the SHs are obligated to come back for aid, otherwise their flag has no meaning. We'll see what happens when Caribou's contact is revealed.

Right now I'm sticking with the "No One Joining" train, mostly because the idea of someone joining right before the Final War starts sounds terrible to me. If we do end up going back to Wano, I'll probably hop over to the Yamato train. I'm just not going to be happy because Oda clearly chose surprise over spending time with the crew. Regardless who joins, I think fans should get to see at least one adventure with the completed crew, outside of war stuff.

Assuming Yamato's narrative wasn't meant to waste our time, and thinking about her relationships again, I think this is what makes the most sense to me for now.

[Galleon Panthera]

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Galleon-Panthera said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@Galleon-Panthera said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

@theackwardstation said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

In my opinion, Carrot's chances to join the crew have ended this chapter. Days have passed since they left Wano, Carrot's nowhere in sight, it doesn't make sense for her to still be inside a barril, so that's it.

And I subscribe to the notion that the revelation of Luffy's dream to his crewmates gives off the vibe of the SH crew being finally complete. It's not only the fact itself in vacuum, but the timing in general, happening just as Jimbe's finally aboard the Sunny for his first travel, just as the final saga starts, and how sacred this moment feels after more than a thousand chapters to land.

There's an argument that Yamato's chances to comeback are still intact though, and I agree that his chances to rejoin the group are still good due to chapter 1000.

Nah...after the stuff with Carrot, I'm absolutely not putting any faith in any ideas for a new Crewmate anymore. That also includes Yamato. In fact, given how there was a reaction shot to the Sunny, and how the ship is also considered a crewmate, pretty much already tells me that the crew is complete.

I will say it here and now, and this will be my easiest prediction yet....there will no new crewmate at all anymore. We are in the Endgame now, so all the pieces have to be complete now and have been put in their right places.

So no Yamato, no Hancock, no Bonney, no Urouge, absolutely no one is joining anymore. This is pretty much it. People can disagree with me if they want, that is fine, but this is where I stand, pretty much.

Well I guess there should be no more threads about crewmates ever again then.

I'm not saying no one is allowed to have other choices. If you want, you can keep continuing on the discussion. That is fine. But for me, personally, I'm done with the theorizing or whatever. That is why I'm saying no one is joining anymore. The crew is final in my eyes.

If you still think Yamato is joining or someone else entirely, more power to you. For me, I'm pretty much done.

At this point, I just want the story's mysteries getting revealed one after the other, rather than thinking about something like "the next crewmate". Hell, how long are we going to wait until we FINALLY see Vegapunk's design and his character shine instead of all these vague hints we have been getting?

To me, that is more important now than anything else. Give me the answers to the yet-to-be-solved mysteries of the OPverse.

Well, then I suppose we won't being you around this thread then, based on what you're saying, I guess?

If that's the truth, then see ya later. lol

Pretty much, given its a very reasonable stance to take at this point. We are at the Endgame after all. At this point, I'm more excited at getting any old and new mysteries revealed about the series, rather than theorizing who the next crewmate is going to be.

Luffy revealing his crew his dream in this chapter even strengthens my position more. I mean...Im happy to admit defeat if someone does end up joining....I just don't think its in the cards anymore. So take it how you will.

[danie]

@Cockycent Err, their was no Caribou discussion because no one thinks or wants him to join the crew, but who is really surprised that he is in a barrel on the ship again? I think no one.

Plot twist: Caribou got thrown in the barrel Carrot was in and he swallowed her up!

[Cockycent]

@danie I will be honest, barrelgate has entertained me. Less than traitorgate, but more than Nami face.

There was Caribou talk throughout the arc, but mostly from me thinking there can possibly be some hate/love relationship with him and Kid. It went no where.

This can possibly be a way to reunite Caribou with his brother and Gaburu's grandmother. Would be some wholesome content.

[danie]

@Cockycent I was starting to doubt it, but Luffy and Caribou's interaction in Udon pretty much confirmed that he would be on the ship again.

[SeaOfHope]

I guess I was wrong on 2 accounts. Jinbe's toast being offscreen or jumbled with the grand Wano party and Carrot stowing away. Though the barrel theory ended up being correct, it just wasn't my choice of preference.

Well, I'll still reserve my judgement till the next island, but still miffed we have no resolution with Carrot, but I'll hold to what I swore.

[Shin10 Bukuro]

@Deicide I think there's something else to take from those sketches you posted: Each Strawhat crewmate had a designated role before they had a finalized design or name.

[electricmastro]

Actually, seeing as how Zou isn’t under Government protection and what Jack did to it, maybe it would be in Carrot’s better interest to stay behind at Zou and help it out any way she can.

Because if she doesn’t, then that would probably make Carrot the selfish one then, since partying anytime she wants with Luffy at sea instead of helping out her own people who recently had their home massively destroyed certain wouldn’t paint Carrot in a better light.

[Deicide]

My opinion on Chapter 1060's development:

Luffy's dream "reveal"

I don't see this as closing the door any new crewmates. The scene does not carry even a hint of subtext in that direction. There's no finality in it. It doesn't come in the trail of any conversation about the crew itself. It carries no implication that this is a decisive moment. There's not even a hint that this is the final crew.

Heck, even Caribou was there hearing it. Oda made a point in showing his barrel at the corner of the panel after the crew's reactions. He was there, he will bring Luffy's dream to whoever he's selling information.

Also, because the dream wasn't really revealed, the subject can still come up in a multitude of ways in the future. Next crewmate could learn the dream through another crewmate, or by Luffy making the real revelation to us readers, or by having a dream that is similar or complementary that Luffy instantly feels kinship toward him/her.

So no, the "revelation" carries no weight to the next crewmate discussion, in my opinion.

Carrot

This chapter did not end Carrot's chances, and I hate it. I don't think Carrot stowed away, but as long as the story does not clearly reduces the chances to zero, the indefinition will remain.

How can Carrot be in the ship and not have shown herself after days? Simple. She was in the barrel that they put Caribou in. She's now trapped inside his swamp body, and she may be freed at any moment after Caribou escapes. So, as long as Caribou remains in the story, the chance is there. It's ever-diminishing, but, like Luffy's chances of surviving in Marineford, it never reaches zero.

Oh, sounds absurd? Oda has a penchant for the absurd. I don't know if this intentional on his part (I don't think so), but the problem is there all the same.

Bonney

It's of course too early to judge Bonney right now. However, she is sure to be featured a lot and have at least some level of character exploration ahead, so keep your eyes open for any signs of candidacy.

---

@Shin10-Bukuro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

I think there's something else to take from those sketches you posted: Each Strawhat crewmate had a designated role before they had a finalized design or name.

Indeed, that's another important point.

[Shiebs]

I know it’s not going to happen but I would personally love it if Jewelry Bonney joined the crew

[electricmastro]

@Shiebs said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

I know it’s not going to happen but I would personally love it if Jewelry Bonney joined the crew

Well, this just happened, so maybe Bonney does have a better chance to join the crew now that she’s near them and isn’t in bad terms with them to begin with.

I guess this is the true start of opening up Bonney crewmate discussions then.

[Shiebs]

@electricmastro I mean she’s got a different attitude than the other women on the crew, already has a bounty, doesn’t have her own crew that needs her anymore (I assume, when’s the last time we saw her with them) definitely has a sad backstory and could fill both the little sister and the grandma role

Also I want to see her reaction to Sanji’s cooking, and how she’ll treat him after