I completely agree with Joyboy, Artemis and others who say that this arc lacks tension. We all know the Yonko are going down one way or another but now it does not feel like the victory is earned. Like Artemis posted before, I dont feel that the stakes are stacked against SHs so I dont feel them to be underdogs here. Its the author's duty to convey that tension of how the protagonists would overcome insurmountable odds, so I feel Oda failed in that.
Chapter 1,016: It's Me, Otama!!
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That idiot beating up the maid making her soak in her blood and then he justifies she's a clone made in a lab so it's okay
what's upsetting is that Sanji's anger got absorbed after he knew, isn't that so messed up ? is this type of content fitting for 12 year olds ?
I just don't agree no matter how much you okay it .
Cosette isn't a clone. Niji didn't say that.
Sanji's anger didn't fade away. He lashed out at Niji and when Zeff and the East Blue was mentioned, his assault lost steam and he got beat up.
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He took him to the laboratory right after the brawl, it's pretty obvious he doesn't have to utter it.
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That idiot beating up the maid making her soak in her blood and then he justifies she's a clone made in a lab so it's okay
what's upsetting is that Sanji's anger got absorbed after he knew, isn't that so messed up ? is this type of content fitting for 12 year olds ?
I just don't agree no matter how much you okay it .
Well now you're talking about if that content is okay for 12 year olds as if it would be okay for 24 year olds when what your main problem with what you're describing is that clones are depicted as less than as a message.
Two different things to me. The scene by itself is okay since you know clones as depicted in the story aren't a real thing yet.
The message being okay just comes down to your opinion. Now sure most ppl wouldn't agree but some would see nothing wrong. Whether its fit for a 12 year old or not is again a matter of opinion and judgement.
There's plenty of other stuff out there just as bad and worse in several other mediums for 12 year olds to consume that some see as totally fine cuz they're cartoons.
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He took him to the laboratory right after the brawl, it's pretty obvious he doesn't have to utter it.
After Sanji found Cosette beaten, Yonji offered to take him to Niji. Sanji was brought to the laboratory instead, where Yonji explained Germa's cloning tech. Ichiji and Niji arrived a little late, and the very first thing Sanji did was attack Niji. However, Niji grabbed Sanji from behind and threatened to attack the Baratie. Then the three siblings beat up Sanji.
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Tama is very obviously an emotional element that Oda introduced in the beginning of the arc lol
she was probably always meant to have a lot of screentime and is probably going to chance the pace of the raid in the next chapters. if you are having a hard time swallowing her buckle up cuz it's only going to get worse.
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He took him to the laboratory right after the brawl, it's pretty obvious he doesn't have to utter it.
That…thats the reason you thought she was a clone? Really?
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There was no point in this arc where you should've thought that Tama wasn't going to eventually take over the Gifters.
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@Joy:
This arc (climax of the entire post skip narrative) has the least amount of tension and stakes out of any arc in the entire series. Who would have thought that Odas writing would be so bad in the end of this arc
Huh? There was a lot of tension when the Scabbards went to the shore and there was no one there for starters. As well as showing that beating Kaido is not an easy feat, plus his soldiers keep getting up like Ulti shows how tough they are. I actually really like Wano, maybe it's because I binge read most of the arc, but I don't think it's bad at all!
@Sibersk:
There was no point in this arc where you should've thought that Tama wasn't going to eventually take over the Gifters.
Agreed, it was foreshadowed all the way in Act I where Tama got control of the centaur gifter that this was gonna happen.
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Tama is very obviously an emotional element that Oda introduced in the beginning of the arc lol
she was probably always meant to have a lot of screentime and is probably going to chance the pace of the raid in the next chapters. if you are having a hard time swallowing her buckle up cuz it's only going to get worse.
Its weird this has to be explained.
Its like ppl don't understand simple storytelling techniques or at least Oda's obvious ones.
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People do not say that Tama isn’t an emotional element of this arc. They say it’s a bad one. Stop acting like you are smart and like we don’t comprehend the story.
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@uniaka:
What are the shots that all 11 SHs have CoC. Roger's crew and rocks had 5-6, if luffy's crew will be the best all time, he needs to have more.
If CoC = how big the ambitious/dream then all of them, if it is an inherited thing, then like half/one third of them may have it.
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@Joy:
like we don’t comprehend the story.
LOL it doesn't come off that way in your posts.
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I kinda pitched this in the Greg thread too, but I think it wouldn't have taken a lot of little changes to improve the reception of Nami and Ulti. I don't want to rewrite the whole last 20 chapters to squeeze a complete dedicated fight in there. Oda decided he didn't want that, and it's his story. But I think a few small editorial changes to framing and dialogue (and one significant switcheroo) could make a big difference in how people expected things to go and how this sequence feels to read. This is how I would improve the Nami/Ulti reading experience without adding more chapters, or even more pages, to the story Oda's decided to tell about them:
The fight starts the same way it did before. Nami and Usopp draw the attention of Page One and Ulti in the Performance Floor melee, are cornered in the bathhouse and quickly overwhelmed, with the dinosaur siblings simply pushing through all their attacks with brute force. Nami has her moment of defiance before being rescued by Tama's group. I think all of that works fine the way it is.
But Oda set up too early that Zeus is going to be the solution. Lots of people, including myself, guessed it from Nami's "I need stronger lightning" line in chapter 1004. So obviously that has to go. Also in that chapter, change the moment where Ulti gets knocked down and expresses pain from Nami's Thunder Lance. We're not going to flag lightning as the solution this early by even letting it do minor damage. Ulti shrugs it off, and the dialogue needs to go more like "none of our best moves even penetrate their scales… just focus on slowing them down and keeping them away from Tama!!" Basically, we want to say that this isn't a stand-and-fight scene for Nami and Usopp. Protecting the girl while she slings dumplings is their new mission. They're not even thinking about beating the dinosaur siblings anymore. Maybe people speculate that someone else can pick up the slack and save them, like Sanji.
The first Nami/Usopp scenes in chapter 1011 are alright, with Usopp's big hits leaving Page One totally unfazed. It's from the end of this chapter through to the start of 1013 I think we need the biggest change.
The choreography of the scene needs to be rearranged so that Ulti gets punched out by Big Mom, whether or not she uses CoC coating for it. Page One fills Ulti's role in the next few chapters. He attacks Komachiyo and hits Tama. At the end of 2012, Nami can't "stay here and crush [him]," unfortunately. We need to keep up the feeling that fighting these guys head on isn't what Nami and Usopp are meant to do. Maybe a line more like "I know I can't beat you, but I can't let you get any closer to Tama!" would fit the mood better.
At this stage, we still think the dinosaurs are simply untouchable to Nami and Usopp, and all that can be done is buy time. Tama remains the focus. And then Big Mom nails Page One with the Maser Cannon and he goes down. Importantly, he stays down. We learn that Big Mom's lightning is strong enough the pierce dinosaur scales, fry them from the inside, and take them out of the fight once and for all. Nami expresses shock that any amount of lightning could actually manage that. Chapter 1013 continues as usual, with Zues reappearing and having his fakeout death.
Fast forward to 1016 and it's not as much of a shock when Ulti comes back again, because she was only punched out, not electrolasered to death. But because Page One has stayed down, we know that a thunderbolt that gets under the skin is an effective attack on a tough dinosaur. Instead of Zeus expositing that one more lightning blast should do it, we need to give Nami agency in the conflict and put her in the problem solving role. She asks Zeus if he could do something like what Big Mom did if she helped him get some more charge. Nami does some weather tricks to charge the air with static and give Zeus a boost (since he can't team up with Prometheus and Napoleon like Hera did for her big lightning) and tells Usopp to get Tama clear, which he easily does. The rest of the chapter proceeds as normal, with the blast and redirection.
I know that this version still isn't going to be what a lot of people were hoping for with a big, extended fight where Nami and Usopp solve problems for themselves and so on, but that's not my story to write. It couldn't be done without changing too many other things. I'm just trying to think of the best version of Oda's story. This way we downplay the idea of a direct fight early on. We add a bit of symmetry and consistency with both dinosaur siblings being taken down by supercharged lightning blasts rather than one being just punched and the other taking two finishing moves back to back. We make it feel like Nami saw what Big Mom did to KO one dinosaur and chose to team up with Zeus to imitate it on the remaining one, rather than have Zeus just tell her how to finish off one that was already injured. Little things, but they could make a big difference to what people expected the finale to be, setting it up to be what it actually is, and do so without dramatically changing the established length and pacing of the arc.
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I've had 0 issues with Otama, her ability was brought up at the beginning of the arc. Is she not supposed to use it?
Kind of random interjection here, but I think it's too early to call much about Wano. I can for example call the offscreening unsatisfying, that's fine. But to say it has no chance of being perceived as a masterpiece, it's just too early to say. I wouldn't have called Marineford one of the best arcs until the last 6 chapters. I also think it's illogical to assume Nami's fight is indicative of how the rest would be, when that's already been pretty much disproven with Franky.
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But Oda set up too early that Zeus is going to be the solution. Lots of people, including myself, guessed it from Nami's "I need stronger lightning" line in chapter 1004. So obviously that has to go.
Nami and Zeus being separated and given a stronger bond was setup once Zeus was taken the first time. It was a weak bond and obvious. Greed and fear was basically their contract. WCI arc was big on contracts/agreements/promises. So, I disagree and have to say that Nami and Zeus setup predates Onigashima. It span from Nami earning the Vivre Card from befriending Lola, to her testing out multiple Homies.
This is my issue with most of the rewrites. Many of them imply that some of you don't see how far Nami and Zeus relationship setup span. The scope of it is bigger than you make it. When you rewrite, this has to be taken into consideration. It's not just about increasing her power. It's her gaining a friend/soulmate whatever. They are an entity and Zeus was earned close to what a nakama would be like. Yeah, it resembles Zoro getting Enma or Sanji's Raid Suit, but there is more overt sentience in Zeus and it warranted Oda making this personal. So personal, Zeus gets his fight. They are a unit. Nami will make up for what Zeus lacks and vice versa going into the story for battles. I can easily see them struggling and needing to get on the same page in the future.
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I really don't think there's anything wrong with Tama. We have been shown in multiple ways, esp visually,how Smile fruits are imperfect and flawed. Not mention the evilness associated with them because of their side effects and how Orochi has abused it.Given that, Gifters being eliminated and actually conveniently switching sides because of a convenient fruit isn't all that concerning. It's just a consequence of depending on such a flawed product.
And concerning Kibi-Dango being "childish", well it is hardly the most childish thing in One Piece,and at this point it's too lt's too late to complain about it
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Nami and Zeus being separated and given a stronger bond was setup once Zeus was taken the first time. It was a weak bond and obvious. Greed and fear was basically their contract. WCI arc was big on contracts/agreements/promises. So, I disagree and have to say that Nami and Zeus setup predates Onigashima. It span from Nami earning the Vivre Card from befriending Lola, to her testing out multiple Homies.
This is my issue with most of the rewrites. Many of them imply that some of you don't see how far Nami and Zeus relationship setup span. The scope of it is bigger than you make it. When you rewrite, this has to be taken into consideration. It's not just about increasing her power. It's her gaining a friend/soulmate whatever. They are an entity and Zeus was earned close to what a nakama would be like. Yeah, it resembles Zoro getting Enma or Sanji's Raid Suit, but there is more overt sentience in Zeus and it warranted Oda making this personal. So personal, Zeus gets his fight. They are a unit. Nami will make up for what Zeus lacks and vice versa going into the story for battles. I can easily see them struggling and needing to get on the same page in the future.
Respectfully, I think the Whole Cake stuff is exactly why we don't need that one extra point of characterisation here. Everyone was surprised when Zeus stuck around into Wano in the first place, giving their relationship a lot more permanence than anyone would have expected when she was just distracting him with black balls during the escape. Mastering the stolen power and learning to work with this living weapon as a character are pretty logical through lines from there that didn't need more setting up on Onigashima. Big Mom taking him back raised the question of whether it was permanent after all, or how Nami would win him back if she even could. But a lot people were guessing it would happen one way or the other from the moment Big Mom recovered him. The fakeout death after he's replaced brought things back into a state of doubt. Doubt and uncertainty would be a good place for us to be in the middle of this kind of set piece, but "stronger lightning" gives the game away a little too hard, not just telling us that he'll be back, which we were already wondering about, but saying exactly how he'll be used too.
My feeling is that foreshadowing can work one of two ways. You can foreshadow to create anticipation for an event the audience wants to see happen, providing catharsis when it comes to pass. Or, you can foreshadow to set up a subversion, or at least the foreshadowed development happening in an unexpected way. The latter kind is usually more obvious in how it's written because people come to expect a switch-up if they feel too greatly like they're being led. "Stronger lightning" is so blatant a lot of us came to expect something more interesting than the pieces just lining up in the most obvious possible way.
But that's all subjective, of course, and even then it's a pretty fine line between the two ways to foreshadow, so I'm not trying to convince you my way's the only way to see it or anything. I'm just trying to understand and put into words why something that should have been a big moment has come up feeling so underwhelming to myself and so many others.
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Respectfully, I think the Whole Cake stuff is exactly why we don't need that one extra point of characterisation here. Everyone was surprised when Zeus stuck around into Wano in the first place, giving their relationship a lot more permanence than anyone would have expected when she was just distracting him with black balls during the escape. Mastering the stolen power and learning to work with this living weapon as a character are pretty logical through lines from there that didn't need more setting up on Onigashima. Big Mom taking him back raised the question of whether it was permanent after all, or how Nami would win him back if she even could. But a lot people were guessing it would happen one way or the other from the moment Big Mom recovered him. The fakeout death after he's replaced brought things back into a state of doubt. Doubt and uncertainty would be a good place for us to be in the middle of this kind of set piece, but "stronger lightning" gives the game away a little too hard, not just telling us that he'll be back, which we were already wondering about, but saying exactly how he'll be used too.
My feeling is that foreshadowing can work one of two ways. You can foreshadow to create anticipation for an event the audience wants to see happen, providing catharsis when it comes to pass. Or, you can foreshadow to set up a subversion, or at least the foreshadowed development happening in an unexpected way. The latter kind is usually more obvious in how it's written because people come to expect a switch-up if they feel too greatly like they're being led. "Stronger lightning" is so blatant a lot of us came to expect something more interesting than the pieces just lining up in the most obvious possible way.
But that's all subjective, of course, and even then it's a pretty fine line between the two ways to foreshadow, so I'm not trying to convince you my way's the only way to see it or anything. I'm just trying to understand and put into words why something that should have been a big moment has come up feeling so underwhelming to myself and so many others.
Based on this take, I think you're implying that since the initial weak bond and the official/permanent bond were inevitable, then all of it was more appropriate for WCI arc and not dragged out to Wano. If that is your point of view, I feel that is a just appraisal.
I can see how dragging something out can alter impact and engagement. I, myself, feel like the Supernova vs BM and Kaido was not only dragged out, but disrupting the usual flow and attention to other characters.
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Based on this take, I think you're implying that since the initial weak bond and the official/permanent bond were inevitable, then all of it was more appropriate for WCI arc and not dragged out to Wano. If that is your point of view, I feel that is a just appraisal.
I can see how dragging something out can alter impact and engagement. I, myself, feel like the Supernova vs BM and Kaido was not only dragged out, but disrupting the usual flow and attention to other characters.
I think we've gotten a little bit off topic with the Nami/Zeus stuff. I think this was as fine a time and place as any to finally lock in their partnership for good, but because it was set up so well by WCI and Big Mom's Onigashima scenes, we don't also need Nami essentially saying "the only way to do this with Zeus" during a section that maybe could have benefited from directing its energy toward setting up expectations for a chase rather than a fight. Nami and Ulti's whole bit didn't need to make it that obvious for Zeus's return to be a satisfying conclusion, in much the same way Chopper didn't need to think "I wish Sanji was here" for it to be enjoyable when Sanji leaps in to save the day. On that one point, we needed a bit more room to doubt or consider other conclusions.
Again, there's absolutely no accounting for taste in these kinds of things. I loved the rooftop fight, personally, but I wouldn't dream of telling you you're wrong about it.
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I think we've gotten a little bit off topic with the Nami/Zeus stuff. I think this was as fine a time and place as any to finally lock in their partnership for good, but because it was set up so well by WCI and Big Mom's Onigashima scenes, we don't also need Nami essentially saying "the only way to do this with Zeus" during a section that maybe could have benefited from directing its energy toward setting up expectations for a chase rather than a fight. Nami and Ulti's whole bit didn't need to make it that obvious for Zeus's return to be a satisfying conclusion, in much the same way Chopper didn't need to think "I wish Sanji was here" for it to be enjoyable when Sanji leaps in to save the day. On that one point, we needed a bit more room to doubt or consider other conclusions.
Again, there's absolutely no accounting for taste in these kinds of things. I loved the rooftop fight, personally, but I wouldn't dream of telling you you're wrong about it.
I don't see Zeus as a requirement for Ulti's defeat or what Nami was implying with stronger lightning. I understand that this is what the writer is definitively hinting at, but not the full context. If I am to believe that w/o Zeus, Nami doesn't have the Weatheria device or wits to produce enough lightning for Ulti to stay down, then I have to back that up and have definitive proof that Nami will not showcase anything else concerning lightning from her training. That means Zeus is not a complement to what she still has up her sleeve and he is purely a power up.
First, i'm not of the belief that Nami has show her full results of training. I understand that many see the story as ending in 4-5 years or whatever and there isn't much room to keep delivering "what you learned over the 2 years". It's the exact reason why I initially wasn't a fan of the statement that is obviously a move to comfort impatient fans.
Oda has proven that the way he delivers what they've learned post timeskip, comes with things that stay true to their growth. I would have to believe that Luffy pulled out all he had against Hody, Doffy and Caesar and the other G4 forms didn't exist. Or Usopp has shown all of his Pop Green and Sanji has displayed everything he learned at Ivankov's residence. Why didn't Zoro use Asura against Pika? Too many glaring points where an enemy could take a stronger, but not the best effort you have, but it's not meant for that moment.
This is the full context i'm referring to. This isn't exclusive to Nami. Most of the Straw Hats have received some kind of exterior nudge based on their ability to retain allies. If Luffy doesn't rub off on Kata, the time allowed to "train" his CoO doesn't take place. Does this mean he doesn't have Snake Man? No. I believe Nami has other devices not displayed yet based on a pattern and you're taking it at face value as you should.
I believe we understand fully where we disagree here and this was fruitful.
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I've had 0 issues with Otama, her ability was brought up at the beginning of the arc. Is she not supposed to use it?
What she has done in Udon was perfect, But to play a major role in the big crucial war? I just don't accept it
I like Otama but her ability is making the alliance so lucky is just a dumb fucking scenario.
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@Joy:
People do not say that Tama isn’t an emotional element of this arc. They say it’s a bad one.
Look, when we have this "The kibi dango bullshit. Someone tells him that his audience are not bunch of children in a kindergarten who would love to hear this type of fantasy. a child taming monsters in a crucial war" followed by "Oda obsession with Tama has killed this arc. Oda has focused more on her than other important characters. PLus her dumb ability that is only useful for dealing with the SMILE of Kaido" which are pretty simplistic and limited takes on how Oda handled a character, what I stated is miles away from trying to sound smart, if anything I'm maybe checking if your opinions are grounded in basic understanding of what was showed to us in the manga.
@Joy:
Stop acting like you are smart and like we don’t comprehend the story.
Man, that's rich coming from you. I'll leave at that.
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What she has done in Udon was perfect, But to play a major role in the big crucial war? I just don't accept it
I like Otama but her ability is making the alliance so lucky is just a dumb fucking scenario.
I find it quite charming. The good guys are heavily outnumbered in numerous ways, they needed something to turn the tide. Even just Kaido and Big Mom alone are wrecking them, not to mention some of them are outmatched in their fights like Nami/Usopp. Sorry, but I just have no issue with some fodder getting converted.
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Look, when we have this "The kibi dango bullshit. Someone tells him that his audience are not bunch of children in a kindergarten who would love to hear this type of fantasy. a child taming monsters in a crucial war" followed by "Oda obsession with Tama has killed this arc. Oda has focused more on her than other important characters. PLus her dumb ability that is only useful for dealing with the SMILE of Kaido" which are pretty simplistic and limited takes on how Oda handled a character, what I stated is miles away from trying to sound smart, if anything I'm maybe checking if your opinions are grounded in basic understanding of what was showed to us in the manga.
Man, that's rich coming from you. I'll leave at that.
Ok let me put it simple. I'd expect something more in the climax of the entire post skip narrative against the strongest creature in the world than deal with his forces because some 8 year old girl magically happened to have a dango fruit that can deal with the SMILEs which were hyped up since PH. Sorry but what I actually expected was some grand spectacle that would push the side of the protagonists to the hell since Kaido is the biggest enemy ever. Instead everyone survives, an 8 year old negates a big force of the opposing side because of dangos and you have a climax that's more akin to a casual stroll that actually facing immeasurable odds. Its also extremely annoying because Oda simply created a fruit just to deal with the SMILEs.
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sorry buddy…but all that is entirely on you, not Oda.
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@Joy:
I'd expect something more in the climax of the entire post skip narrative against the strongest creature in the world than deal with his forces because some 8 year old girl magically happened to have a dango fruit that can deal with the SMILEs which were hyped up since PH
Who seriously cares about the Gifters or Pleasures? Those are fodder through and through.
If somone like Black Maria or WhoisWho wins their match, they can easily deal with them.
We all know that King or Queen will also both win their respective fights and then they can join the fun as well.It doesnt matter how many of the lower ranks have defected or are influenced by Tamas ability. In the end the success of the war rests solely on the alliance dealing with the two Emperors, and here they have failed spectacularly. Yes, yes, we will probably get a bunch of chapters of Kaido vs Yamato and her wounding him when her devil fruit is revealed, but he will still come out on top like always. But Luffy will have healed/recovered by then, you say? Great, he can be taken down a third (fourth?) time, no problem. And BigMom will have finished by then as well.
Really, if Tama is the greatest asset on the good guys side, than they have a problem.
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sorry buddy…but all that is entirely on you, not Oda.
In all fairness; Oda does strike me as the type of person that likes to have his cake and eat it too.
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sorry, I don't get this proverb in this context
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I find it quite charming. The good guys are heavily outnumbered in numerous ways, they needed something to turn the tide.
It would've been a much better narrative if he stated something like " A single soldier of the alliance is worth ten foes "
Instead he made the alliance vastly outnumbered and simply weak, it cannot take down two emperors with their forces, so Oda was like oh yeah that's the right spot to bring a magical child who can turn the tide of war by herself !
You and others may like it. But i simply find it an utter garbage of writing and i wouldn't be this disappointed if it wasn't for the war that had +9 years of build up.
Story wise this war will change the course of the one piece world, and yeah a magical child played a major role in it because the audience are babies so who the fuck cares .
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sorry, I don't get this proverb in this context
Sorry, maybe that didn't put it well. What I meant was: Oda really built up the Wano arc but it looks to be the usual One Piece arc; everything will turn out fine, the heroes won't pay for their victory.
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Sorry, maybe that didn't put it well. What I meant was: Oda really built up the Wano arc but it looks to be the usual One Piece arc; everything will turn out fine, the heroes won't pay for their victory.
I wonder how many ppl thought this during Marineford before Ace died.
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What she has done in Udon was perfect, But to play a major role in the big crucial war? I just don't accept it
I like Otama but her ability is making the alliance so lucky is just a dumb fucking scenario.
Mind control, if its used by "good guys" its alright. But Doffy used the same thing and everybody think he is the worst guy in the world!!
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I wonder how Skypea would had turn out if Luffy had ate any DF that wasn't the one that turns him into a rubber man.
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I wonder how Skypea would had turn out if Luffy had ate any DF that wasn't the one that turns him into a rubber man.
I imagine Luffy would have felt compelled to speed himself up to dodge his attacks in time and hit him fast enough, even if it would have taken weeks. In contrast, I wonder if it’s possible for Enel to enhance his Devil fruit in such a way, like with awakening or science, that he manages to bypass Luffy’s rubber protection.
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@Zik:
I wonder how many ppl thought this during Marineford before Ace died.
In all honesty; I did think Ace would survive. Him and Whitebeard's death came to me as a surprise. Can you blame me considering how things had played out until that point? I didn't know the first half of the story was about to end. I'm inclined to think that's the reason it happened, so I can't help but also think that their won't be deaths like that until the story is in its final phase. I'd love to be wrong but the way things have been going don't encourage me.
Right now I'm just looking forward to what will happen with Luffy and Momo, and Kaido's flashback.
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In all honesty; I did think Ace would survive. Him and Whitebeard's death came to me as a surprise. Can you blame me considering how things had played out to that point?
No, but that fuels the idea that Oda had Pell and Pagaya live partially to make Ace and Whitebeard’s death seem more out of nowhere, which he seems to have accomplished in your case.
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It would've been a much better narrative if he stated something like " A single soldier of the alliance is worth ten foes "
Instead he made the alliance vastly outnumbered and simply weak, it cannot take down two emperors with their forces, so Oda was like oh yeah that's the right spot to bring a magical child who can turn the tide of war by herself !
You and others may like it. But i simply find it an utter garbage of writing and i wouldn't be this disappointed if it wasn't for the war that had +9 years of build up.
Story wise this war will change the course of the one piece world, and yeah a magical child played a major role in it because the audience are babies so who the fuck cares .
The Momotaro legend reference was also 9+ of build up.
In said legend, the hero uses kibidango to befriend animals. There was a huge animal army in this arc, at no point they were planned to be taken out by brute force. Oda didn't make up a random child character because he though "Oh no, how will the heroes ever defeat such an army", he made an animal army because there was going to be a character with the power to turn them over.No, but that fuels the idea that Oda had Pell and Pagaya live partially to make Ace and Whitebeard’s death seem more out of nowhere, which he seems to have accomplished in your case.
I don't think so.
Oda likes/liked to use those moments as great shock value, and when the arc was over and the bad guy defeated he would show us that turns out they were still alive and all is good. Happy ending all around.
With Ace and Whitebeard, he didn't want to tell a story with such an happy ending, he finally had to actually kill the characters. I'd argue that he saved Pell and Pagaya just because he knew he would kill Ace and Whitebeard and wanted to keep the story as happyh as possible before that. Not because he wanted to shock the readers when they finally died but because he felt the scenes would be so sad that they needed to be preceeded by the maximum amount of happy endings. -
I don't think so.
Oda likes/liked to use those moments as great shock value, and when the arc was over and the bad guy defeated he would show us that turns out they were still alive and all is good. Happy ending all around.
With Ace and Whitebeard, he didn't want to tell a story with such an happy ending, he finally had to actually kill the characters. I'd argue that he saved Pell and Pagaya just because he knew he would kill Ace and Whitebeard and wanted to keep the story as happyh as possible before that. Not because he wanted to shock the readers when they finally died but because he felt the scenes would be so sad that they needed to be preceeded by the maximum amount of happy endings.Oda could've easily been doing both though.
Shocking the reader with permanent deaths and keeping the story as happy as possible until the super sad ending of Marineford.
Besides that's exactly what happened anyway.
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If Oda's only concern was to keep the story happy until Marineford, and then the gloves were off, that'd be a thing.
But its not the case and he started undermmining that immediately. From it firstly being super obvious Sabo was actually alive, to Hody not-killing ships of humans because "he preferred to send them to the surface and scare them." to the ultimate death weapon in Punk Hazard having a 3 day leniency period, to there not being a single known casualty in all of Dresserossa despite the giant cage of cutting death..
Oda started backpeddling on deaths meaning anything immediately after putting in the first two that stuck. It wasn't any sort of master plan or surprise twist… he just prefers to not kill characters if the story doesn't absolutely demand it.
Which does serve the purpose of keeping the tone intact, which is a strength, but weakens the overall drama and stakes which is definitely a weakness.
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Who seriously cares about the Gifters or Pleasures? Those are fodder through and through.
Waiters and Pleasures are indeed fodders
Gifters are NOT !
and you will know their value once they convert soon.
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If Oda's only concern was to keep the story happy until Marineford, and then the gloves were off, that'd be a thing.
But its not the case and he started undermmining that immediately. From it firstly being super obvious Sabo was actually alive, to Hody not-killing ships of humans because "he preferred to send them to the surface and scare them." to the ultimate death weapon in Punk Hazard having a 3 day leniency period, to there not being a single known casualty in all of Dresserossa despite the giant cage of cutting death..
Oda started backpeddling on deaths meaning anything immediately after putting in the first two that stuck. It wasn't any sort of master plan or surprise twist… he just prefers to not kill characters if the story doesn't absolutely demand it.
Which does serve the purpose of keeping the tone intact, which is a strength, but weakens the overall drama and stakes which is definitely a weakness.
Well, I don't mind that Oda keeps the number of deaths to a minimum so that each of them will be meaningful.
In fact, the real thing that's upsetting to me at this time, is that Pedro seems to have died for no particular reason. -
In fact, the real thing that's upsetting to me at this time, is that Pedro seems to have died for no particular reason.
Which is why I don't think he's actually dead.
In the short term, his dying makes the emperors more dangerous, but in the long term it doesn't do anything UNLESS it's for Carrot's development (which has been woeful for 100 chapters.)
But once this is all done and the badguys are beaten? We don't need their threat cred anymore, so he can be alive then.
He wasn't even the only sacrifice, or the final one in that arc, he was just one of dozens, so it was extra meaningless.
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@Zik:
Oda could've easily been doing both though.
Shocking the reader with permanent deaths and keeping the story as happy as possible until the super sad ending of Marineford.
Besides that's exactly what happened anyway.
And having past deaths like Bellemere’s and Saul’s there might have also played a factor in the way Oda handled present day deaths, because a death happening in the past doesn’t make the world feel less uncomfortable and cruel, at least not from Oda’s viewpoint anyway, and didn’t want to overburden the reader in the process he probably thought.
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Pound is the worse one imo. Pedro's "death" has meaning because it is shown that against Yonko you must be prepared for anything even laying off your life for a chance of victory. Therefore his "death" has such an effect.
Pound… is alive despite such a good build up. Like, what??? I was moved when I read that scene, now I really hate that filler. What a waste of panels. Another one meaningless scene in WCI.
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Pound is the worse one imo. Pedro's "death" has meaning because it is shown that against Yonko you must be prepared for anything even laying off your life for a chance of victory. Therefore his "death" has such an effect.
Pound… is alive despite such a good build up. Like, what??? I was moved when I read that scene, now I really hate that filler. What a waste of panels. Another one meaningless scene in WCI.
I guess in that moment, Pound's panels, it did it's job to build the emotion and all…he's not a character, we're gonna see again or going to have an impact so doesn't really matter if he was alive or not.
Oda made the moment awesome of him dying and Pez crying at the same time. Pretty cool. and they still got a happy ending / family reunion which is also nice.
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Pound is the worse one imo. Pedro's "death" has meaning because it is shown that against Yonko you must be prepared for anything even laying off your life for a chance of victory. Therefore his "death" has such an effect.
Pound… is alive despite such a good build up. Like, what??? I was moved when I read that scene, now I really hate that filler. What a waste of panels. Another one meaningless scene in WCI.
I never got the feeling I was meant to believe outright that Pound got killed with how the panels were displayed, so I don't feel as if Oda tried to trick me and feel stupid or anything like that. I suppose I feel glad Pound got reunited with Lola and Chiffon, in light of how garbage and destructive of a dad Judge chose to be to Sanji, though I imagine many other people feel different, which is fair enough.
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Well, I don't mind that Oda keeps the number of deaths to a minimum so that each of them will be meaningful.
In fact, the real thing that's upsetting to me at this time, is that Pedro seems to have died for no particular reason.Pedro was a dreaming fool who got caught in the winds of the era and his adoration for Gol D. Roger’s adventures. He wanted everything that was Roger including his end. He went out to sea to accomplish his dreams and got beat up into reality or maybe I should say that his will and luck to accomplish his dreams were not strong enough.
He saw in Luffy someone whose will was strong enough to accomplish all that he couldn’t and it seems Pedro still driven by the Roger mystique decided to go out in big time death while at the same time pushing Luffy forward.He was a fool, an old dreaming fool caught in Roger’s web.
Look at Shishilian, alive and well. You don’t see him dreaming fool hardy stories and the likes. He’s a lion with a good head on his shoulder.
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Pedro was a dreaming fool who got caught in the winds of the era and his adoration for Gol D. Roger’s adventures. He wanted everything that was Roger including his end. He went out to sea to accomplish his dreams and got beat up into reality or maybe I should say that his will and luck to accomplish his dreams were not strong enough.
He saw in Luffy someone whose will was strong enough to accomplish all that he couldn’t and it seems Pedro still driven by the Roger mystique decided to go out in big time death while at the same time pushing Luffy forward.He was a fool, an old dreaming fool caught in Roger’s web.
Look at Shishilian, alive and well. You don’t see him dreaming fool hardy stories and the likes. He’s a lion with a good head on his shoulder.
Yep, Pedro got called the Nox Pirates for a reason that relates to the dawn of the world, which he was willing to die for. Even if it's not a reason you agree with, it would be pretty big to say that's not a reason at all.
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Pound is the worse one imo. Pedro's "death" has meaning because it is shown that against Yonko you must be prepared for anything even laying off your life for a chance of victory. Therefore his "death" has such an effect.
Pound… is alive despite such a good build up. Like, what??? I was moved when I read that scene, now I really hate that filler. What a waste of panels. Another one meaningless scene in WCI.
Look at the bright side, Pound managed to survived to be reunited with his long lost daughters and meet his grandson.
The love of a father against certain death.
Pedro was a dreaming fool who got caught in the winds of the era and his adoration for Gol D. Roger’s adventures. He wanted everything that was Roger including his end. He went out to sea to accomplish his dreams and got beat up into reality or maybe I should say that his will and luck to accomplish his dreams were not strong enough.
He saw in Luffy someone whose will was strong enough to accomplish all that he couldn’t and it seems Pedro still driven by the Roger mystique decided to go out in big time death while at the same time pushing Luffy forward.He was a fool, an old dreaming fool caught in Roger’s web.
Look at Shishilian, alive and well. You don’t see him dreaming fool hardy stories and the likes. He’s a lion with a good head on his shoulder.
100% agree.