Well i mean in perceived order his two established dreams in life are to find what is essentially the best food supplier in the world and getting away with looking at naked woman. His fighting style itself is build on a consideration for his true craft as a chef. So if one or some of his final great moments in the manga consisted of a cooking display that would be rather fitting in my estimation.
Chapter 955: ENMA
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I just said it was not a questionnof fight and you put them again as if it was the only issue. Anyway i think i will do like access timeco. If you are fine witj sanji doing the kitchen and be a pervert till the end of the manga, good for you
No I didn't. I asked you a question and you chose not to answer. I don't know what differences in "fairness" exist between Sanji and Zoro and have never heard of any that weren't based around power level. If there are other things, you're welcome to list them. I am also 100 percent ok with Sanji doing the kitchen and be a pervert.
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In terms of overall combat ability, yes, Zoro is indeed stronger….but he's also a lunkhead who is mostly good for combat only.
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I feel that Hiyori staying behind is another way of making her be captured by Orochi's forces (now that he knows she is alive and there) and be needing rescue in Onigashima rather than her being the traitor. But still, we are kept wondering about her and Kiyoshiro.
Watch Zoro use CoC in that case then.
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The character least likely to be a traitor is Kinemon. This is why I think he is the traitor.
If not Kinemon, then my top 2 are…
2 Inu
1 Kanjuro -
The character least likely to be a traitor is Kinemon. This is why I think he is the traitor.
If not Kinemon, then my top 2 are…
2 Inu
1 KanjuroInu didn't lose a leg just to be called a traitor
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Well i mean in perceived order his two established dreams in life are to find what is essentially the best food supplier in the world and getting away with looking at naked woman. His fighting style itself is build on a consideration for his true craft as a chef. So if one or some of his final great moments in the manga consisted of a cooking display that would be rather fitting in my estimation.
I get that, and I can tolerate him not having had any really stellar triumphs in combat since Fishman Island but we've only seen one of his 99 ultimate recipes from his 2 years training so if nothing else I would have expected to see at least a few more of them by now. Even if they weren't used only by him, if he was the source of something that could help empower his teammates in specific ways, that would be awesome but the hype behind that stuff isn't really living up to it. Zoro being trained by Mihawk is really showing in how much more of a beast he is now. Sanji learning new recipes gets us…that energy soup from the end of Punk Hazard and I guess maybe his Sim-Sim Cream, possibly his soba here but nothing that remarkable about either of those seems to have come from it. Let's see Sanji really show he's top chef and was the only one who mastered all of those recipes when the others could only do one, or a handful at best.
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Wow people really have a hard time understanding a rather simple thing, Sanji turned from being funny mostly pre-TS (though you can argue about that) to turning into the butt of the joke now all the time, coupled with Oda not giving him any victories that feel like they are actually that, victories, because they always come with lowering circumstances, whether it´s combat related, or him actually standing his ground based on his morals and ideas, and this is actually a stark contrast to the past. He never was the main star of the crew, but he had his own role to play, which he is not playing anymore, whether it´s Mr Prince or Silent Hunter, contrasted to the beast Zoro represents. And about the comparisons to Zoro, it is something Oda constantly perpetuates himself a lot, so to blame the fandom for that seems kind of ridiculous.
And it´s also not the same with the other Strawhats, some of them are also problematic in the sense of becoming second tier main characters that just support the main stars (Robin and Chopper especially, Brook and Franky not so much since they had their significant moments) but their depiction did not turn so negative. -
I'm a fan of all nine/ten Strawhats, and I have my fair share of criticism towards all of them too. The fact that the fandom is always complaining about Sanji in particular above all else shows what are the priorities when it comes to character portrayal. In general, there is no way to avoid the empirical fact that the current fandom is one that really puts an emphasis on "Ws" and "Ls", who thinks that the value of character comes from their successes rather than how they bounce off the story.
It's like Sanji's reputation can turn around when he kicks somebody's ass again. So after Sanji finally defeat his big foes once again maybe he will be awesome again, right? Great character, rawr! Not now though, too loser right now.
It's not that I can't criticize Sanji, since the writing for him has anoyed me in a lot of moments too. My personal gripe (that is also shared by many people) is that his pervert jokes are dominating too much of the his presence in any NW arc, with the exception of WCI where he finally felt like a relatable human being again. Fortunally, the bad comes with the good, because some of his jokes are still fine, and we can still see his other qualities shining too, and I enjoy the perspective that WCI brought back to his character after so long, and much of the writing was pretty good and sensible.
Hopefully, the fights will come too.
(ps: it is indeed ridiculous that Sanji didn't have a proper fight in the New World yet, but I can't really take it as bad as some people do, and this issue of lack of fights is far beyond Sanji, honestly)On the other end of the spectrum, this circunstance ends up having a curious effect on characters like Zoro. Nowadays many threads are dominated by comments hailing the fact that Zoro is the ultimate badass, and praising how much he is well portrayed by Oda compared to the likes of Sanji. However, there is the minority voice that argues that the writing for Zoro has become a little too lazy after the time skip. It got better now in Wano, thankfully, and I'm very interested in the direction the story is pointing out for him regarding the lore of the swords and the Shimotsuki family… but for the most part it feels like Oda is in autopilot mode and just needs to show Zoro in combat swinging his sword now and then to make "justice" to the character. It's a boring pattern, honestly.
I miss the old days when he used to speak his ideas and opinions and enjoyed his life instead of only looking grumpy and bloodthirsty. I remember that Zoro laughed too and interacted with the group. That's what made him such a compelling character to me at the beginning, because that was an interesting spin over the "stoic badass guy of the team" for shonen manga. But I'm wrong, apparently, because the majority thinks that Zoro is loved by the author because he gets all the Ws. The author receives the feedback and just keeps the trend.
All in all, I go against the majority wave and I claim that Oda is actually much more enthusiastic to write about Sanji than he is to write about Zoro, because Oda always shows more ideas for Sanji than for Zoro.
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Well it's not the fandom who coined the term "Monster Trio" or added Sanji to it.
Like I said before, fights are a big part of One Piece and more important characters tend to be fighters. Sanji is primarily a cook? His fighting skills had a lot more impact on the plot than his cooking skills did. That's just how it is. Don't need to spin his fighting skills being less important when the author himself established him as a fighter who can be relied on to protect the crew.
His dreams of finding food supply and spying on naked women were mentioned above. But didn't Oda also make him promise he'll be the most feared by marines? Does that promise hold the same worth as the promise he won't use the Raid Suit?
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A note + thoughts from me: all three translations have Hitetsu state that, if Zoro turns Enma black, that'll raise its "rank". That doesn't strike me, though, as saying that that would move it from the "21 Excellent Grade" to the "12 Supreme Grade"; I feel like he'd need to say that turning Enma black would "raise its grade" to have that meaning. Plus, otherwise you'd think there wouldn't be a set number of Skillful/Excellent/Supreme Grade swords if turning a blade black changed it from one to another. I'm guessing that, even in the same Grade, there are some swords that are "better" or more prestigious/strong than others (and Enma seems to be one such), so they're even "ranked" compared to each other, and so if Zoro turns Enma black, it'll be an even more prized and special Excellent Grade sword than it already is.
I guess the question then is what the difference between "rank" and "grade" is.
Oda uses the term 位列 in quotation marks:
The thing is, if this doesn't mean that the blade can achieve a higher "grade", then all Hitetsu is saying is that forging a blade into a black blade makes it more powerful, which we obviously knew already.
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Well it's not the fandom who coined the term "Monster Trio" or added Sanji to it.
So what? Let's suppose for argument's sake that Sanji is not part of the Monster Trio anymore, that the author's intention is that Sanji is now a medium fighter that didn't rise up to the same status as Zoro in the New World. So just like Oda made his a "monster" before, he is not a monster now. Then that means that Sanji is being poorly depicted now? Is he an inferior character now compared to before?
Just stating that Sanji was considered really strong doesn't mean anything, that's not an argument. As you said, the strength of the character is determined according to the will of the author, and that's really easy to manipulate in the story. Sanji is as strong as he is, whatever that means, and his struggles and feats are all what Oda wanted for his character.
And at the end of the day he will probably end up being hella strong again when he gets his 1x1.
Like I said before, fights are a big part of One Piece and more important characters tend to be fighters. Sanji is primarily a cook? His fighting skills had a lot more impact on the plot than his cooking skills did. That's just how it is. Don't need to spin his fighting skills being less important when the author himself established him as a fighter who can be relied on to protect the crew.
Impact on the plot happens in a lot of different ways other than fighting or cooking, and most of the time it happens precisely outside of combat or outside of the kitchen. Sanji has been on the spotlight in many occasions without fights or food, and WCI is a clear example of that.
It would be an argument to say that Sanji has not been relevant in ages, but that's not the case because Sanji was one of the main actors recently. The issue here is that he is not being relevant in the way you desire him to be.
It's okay to be unsatisfied when the story doesn't go in the direction we want, but you should still understand that there is something there.
His dreams of finding food supply and spying on naked women were mentioned above. But didn't Oda also make him promise he'll be the most feared by marines? Does that promise hold the same worth as the promise he won't use the Raid Suit?
I love how that cocky statement to allure Kuma to choose to kill Sanji over Zoro is always remembered as one of the main goals of the character. Anyway, if we take it as a serious promise (which will never be realized for obvious reasons), then we will have to wait until the end of the series, right? Whatever struggle Sanji is going through right now technically doesn't mean that he won't be the most feared man in the world by the end of One Piece.
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if we consider similarities between Roger Pirates and Straw Hat Pirates, perhaps we will see like this:
Roger = Luffy
Rayleigh = Zoro
Bullet = Sanjican we agree with this?
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So what? Let's suppose for argument's sake that Sanji is not part of the Monster Trio anymore, that the author's intention is that Sanji is now a medium fighter that didn't rise up to the same status as Zoro in the New World. So just like Oda made his a "monster" before, he is not a monster now. Then that means that Sanji is being poorly depicted now? Is he an inferior character now compared to before?
Just stating that Sanji was considered really strong doesn't mean anything, that's not an argument. As you said, the strength of the character is determined according to the will of the author, and that's really easy to manipulate in the story. Sanji is as strong as he is, whatever that means, and his struggles and feats are all what Oda wanted for his character.
And at the end of the day he will probably end up being hella strong again when he gets his 1x1.
What I'm saying is you can't say the fans have their own warped expectations of the character when the author himself has set it all up.
Really, the only reason Sanji doesn't get that much fighting spotlight is because Oda added too many characters that steal the light. The current protagonists are expanded and panel space, as well as Oda's own time are limited.
The problem is some of you are arguing that we shouldn't have any problems with it. Please…
Impact on the plot happens in a lot of different ways other than fighting or cooking, and most of the time it happens precisely outside of combat or outside of the kitchen. Sanji has been on the spotlight in many occasions without fights or food, and WCI is a clear example of that.
It would be an argument to say that Sanji has not been relevant in ages, but that's not the case because Sanji was one of the main actors recently. The issue here is that he is not being relevant in the way you desire him to be.
It's okay to be unsatisfied when the story doesn't go in the direction we want, but you should still understand that there is something there.
WCI is a clear and only example of it. Again, not the way I desire him to be, but the way Oda set him up in the first half. Again, he's often sidelined in favor of new characters. And then those new characters are sidelined in favor of other new characters…
There's something there, but it isn't really shown properly.
I love how that cocky statement to allure Kuma to choose to kill Sanji over Zoro is always remembered as one of the main goals of the character. Anyway, if we take it as a serious promise (which will never be realized for obvious reasons), then we will have to wait until the end of the series, right? Whatever struggle Sanji is going through right now technically doesn't mean that he won't be the most feared man in the world by the end of One Piece.
It's still a promise and real men don't make empty promises. :ninja:
But aren't you now just assuming it was a simple bluff instead something Sanji really meant at the moment. Especially at that moment.
Some of you keep putting it as I'm criticizing Sanji, while I'm really doubting choices Oda made with the character.
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if we consider similarities between Roger Pirates and Straw Hat Pirates, perhaps we will see like this:
Roger = Luffy
Rayleigh = Zoro
Bullet = Sanjican we agree with this?
Not at all. Bullet is a non canonical character, which will bring Oda to not give similarities between him and another SH. Plus, Bullet and Sanji are like day and night, when it comes to characterization, life' goals and ambitions. So they don't share even trait.
If, and always if, Sanji will stay as the number 3 of the crew, we could probably see some common trait with Scopper Gaban, who was probably the 3rd strongest of Roger's Crew.
If we are to get anything about him, just like Rayleigh.Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
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What I'm saying is you can't say the fans have their own warped expectations of the character when the author himself has set it all up.
The fans can have their expactations, but they should also be willing to accept other outcomes. Obviously, nobody is obliged to like anything, but frustration sometimes warps the justification.
Furthermore, there are all kinds of complaints, and most of them are not so timid. Most of the time, the wording of the complaints makes explicit that Sanji's struggles is a bad depiction of the character as if that's what matters the most. As I said before, you can observe a culture of exaltation of victories and power that goes beyond Sanji, but which makes him a natural victim given his current state. It is only logical according to this mindset that Oda dislikes Sanji because he has not been kicking ass lately.
Really, the only reason Sanji doesn't get that much fighting spotlight is because Oda added too many characters that steal the light. The current protagonists are expanded and panel space, as well as Oda's own time are limited.
The problem is some of you are arguing that we shouldn't have any problems with it. Please…
My opinion is that Sanji and the rest of non-Luffy Strawhats need more fights yes. For my enjoyment too, but also for the sake of making the evolution of the crew to make sense in the long run. That said, once again, the negativity towards Sanji goes deeper than that (and the perv gag stuff). It's just the winner-loser mentality.
The problem of too many characters stealing the Strawhats' spotlight is real, but I don't think that's the only reason why Sanji didn't get any fights. In WCI, I believe that Oda wanted to make a point out of the fact that Sanji didn't have a 1x1 in order to highlight his intentions for the character in the arc. Apart from that, the New World doesn't have that many arcs unfortunately, and Sanji was not around during Dressrosa.
WCI is a clear and only example of it. Again, not the way I desire him to be, but the way Oda set him up in the first half. Again, he's often sidelined in favor of new characters. And then those new characters are sidelined in favor of other new characters…
There's something there, but it isn't really shown properly.
WCI is not the only example of it. For instance, Sanji had an impact on the plot when he decided to help Kinnemon back in Punk Hazard, since that's when we brought the samurai to the party. Their initial relationship was cool, and I wish Kinnemon will pay back the favor to Sanji during Wano.
Btw, fights are flashy moments that we care about a lot because we like it, but that's not what makes the story move in general. Most fights could be easily subtracted without changing anything relevant, especially fights featuring secondary characters like the boss' goons. That's why we shouldn't argue that the impact of one character on the plot is based on his strength feats, or that Sanji is less impactful on the plot now because he is not living up to his "monster trio" status.
It's still a promise and real men don't make empty promises. :ninja:
But aren't you now just assuming it was a simple bluff instead something Sanji really meant at the moment. Especially at that moment.
Some of you keep putting it as I'm criticizing Sanji, while I'm really doubting choices Oda made with the character.
It's precisely because it was that moment that I always read it as a bluff. To be fair, I'm not sure if "bluff" is the right word, but what I mean is that he was just making up on the spot a generic improvised reasoning to justify why Kuma should leave Zoro alone for him.
Btw, I also criticize Sanji and Oda's writing for the character… for other stuff.
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Let's not forget that what made Luffy decide to recruit Sanji was feeding Gin. It wasn't his combat prowess or even his cookin skills: it was the fact that he's such a nice guy. So no wonder that's what Oda decided to focus on. Come to think of it, Sanji's role in Baratie was pretty similar to WCI. I'm trying to imagine the discussions back then. 'Sanji is a loser, can't even beat a fodder like Pearl.' 'Meanwhile, Zoro gets praise from the world's strongest swordsman'.
That is an excellent observation. I've go nothing to add to this, just felt that it was too good of a post to be lost in the background noise.
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The monster trio will switch to jimbei sanji and zoro, to be honest i think jimbei and zoro just became equal with his new upgrade.
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The fans can have their expactations, but they should also be willing to accept other outcomes. Obviously, nobody is obliged to like anything, but frustration sometimes warps the justification.
Furthermore, there are all kinds of complaints, and most of them are not so timid. Most of the time, the wording of the complaints makes explicit that Sanji's struggles is a bad depiction of the character as if that's what matters the most. As I said before, you can observe a culture of exaltation of victories and power that goes beyond Sanji, but which makes him a natural victim given his current state. It is only logical according to this mindset that Oda dislikes Sanji because he has not been kicking ass lately.
Of course I can accept other outcomes, but won't do so without discussing what bothers me with fellow fans. You don't get to tell me there isn't a clear difference in Sanji's treatment now as opposed to Zoro and Luffy's, doesn't matter that fighting is their only real role in the crew.
is not the only example of it. For instance, Sanji had an impact on the plot when he decided to help Kinnemon back in Punk Hazard, since that's when we brought the samurai to the party. Their initial relationship was cool, and I wish Kinnemon will pay back the favor to Sanji during Wano.
Btw, fights are flashy moments that we care about a lot because we like it, but that's not what makes the story move in general. Most fights could be easily subtracted without changing anything relevant, especially fights featuring secondary characters like the boss' goons. That's why we shouldn't argue that the impact of one character on the plot is based on his strength feats, or that Sanji is less impactful on the plot now because he is not living up to his "monster trio" status.
But helping Kinemon is not something only Sanji could do. I first brought up the matter while contrasting 2 of Sanji's skills; cooking and fighting. I see users pointing out he's a SH because he cooks and I can point out there might not be SH any more if he wasn't such a good fighter. Or such an intelligent individual.
Like it or not, grand majority of problems in OP are solved with fighting. And if they aren't, our protagonists proceed to fight harder.
I feel Sanji has less impact on the plot not only because he's not fighting. Both Luffy and Zoro have had quest lines in this arc. Sanji doesn't have one as of yet. He's just participating, like rest of SH.
One more thing I'm missing are little Sanji gems like this one:
!
!It's precisely because it was that moment that I always read it as a bluff. To be fair, I'm not sure if "bluff" is the right word, but what I mean is that he was just making up on the spot a generic improvised reasoning to justify why Kuma should leave Zoro alone for him.
Btw, I also criticize Sanji and Oda's writing for the character… for other stuff.
Well it felt completely random, but Oda isn't one to trivialize such claims. But then again Sanji's own claim of not using the suit was trivialized, so what the hell do I know.
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if we consider similarities between Roger Pirates and Straw Hat Pirates, perhaps we will see like this:
Roger = Luffy
Rayleigh = Zoro
Bullet = Sanjican we agree with this?
Scopper = Sanji in canon
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@LordEnel:
The monster trio will switch to jimbei sanji and zoro, to be honest i think jimbei and zoro just became equal with his new upgrade.
No it won't… And I bet for anything you or anyone else want
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So maybe this is swearing in the church since it is such an established notion. But has Zoro really been given that much more quality screentime? More battle focused sure, but is it excessive in a comparison of quantity and characterization?
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So maybe this is swearing in the church since it is such an established notion. But has Zoro really been given that much more quality screentime? More battle focused sure, but is it excessive in a comparison of quantity and characterization?
His family scene with Hiyori and Toko was one of very few giving him some characterization since long IMO…
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Btw: Does someone know if this whole "let's meet after the war" is a cultural thing? In western mythology/literature it's rather the "let's say goodbay before the war" (e.g. Hector and Andromache).
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So maybe this is swearing in the church since it is such an established notion. But has Zoro really been given that much more quality screentime? More battle focused sure, but is it excessive in a comparison of quantity and characterization?
He's gotten some very impressive moments as far as action goes, no complains on that front for sure.
But his inner life as a character with ambitions, struggles and emotions ? I'm looking for it, and not finding very much (up to Wano, that is. Recent chapters have shown him reacting to stuff like Yasu's death, caring for Hyori/Toko, showing respect for Ryuma, …A bit of an improvement, at least). Maybe a thorough read of all post-timeskip arcs would prove me wrong, but I've been under the impression that Zoro's characterization post-TS has remained mostly confined to stoic badassism. He did show some emotion when confronting Tashigi and Monet in Punk Hazard, but even that remained ambiguous and didn't get any follow-up. Then in both Dressrosa and Wano, one of his first noticeable moves was to get lost, which should be to him what pervert gags are to Sanji: the easy option, except it doesn't offend readers and so goes under the radar.I may not like a lot of what Sanji went through in WCI, but it did flesh him out as a character far more than any of Zoro's recent fight scenes.
All in all, I believe a close scrutiny of the whole crew sans Luffy would point similar issues for everyone, which all boil down to a single problem : too many side characters competing with the main cast over limited panel time. When I see Straw Hats talking together for more than a page these days, I feel like I've been given a rare treat, and we haven't even seen all of them gathered since the end of Punk Hazard. The crew set forth on an adventure that has become far bigger than them, and in a way the storytelling reflects this as well.
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The toad oil worked, zoro doesn't even have scar from that nasty wound. Doctor Usopp> Doctor chopper confirmed.
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So maybe this is swearing in the church since it is such an established notion. But has Zoro really been given that much more quality screentime? More battle focused sure, but is it excessive in a comparison of quantity and characterization?
Zoro needs something else besides swords, like hobby or something. All other straw hats have something besides their main thing, just not zoro.
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Zoro and Sanji are the guys on the crew that get screen-time more consistently after Luffy. So it's odd to bring them examples of Straw Hats getting shafted when Chopper or Robin are way worse off in that regard. The East Blue people in general have always felt like the most mainest characters within the crew if that makes sense, and that has been fairly consistent even since before the timeskip I'd say.
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@uniaka:
Zoro needs something else besides swords, like hobby or something.
Drink, sleep, train, repeat.
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Drinking is like the worst and most stupid hobby, if you can even call it that. Even akainu does gardening, afukinkainu.
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@uniaka:
Drinking is like the worst and most stupid hobby. Even akainu does gardening, afukinkainu.
That's Zoro's lifestyle, has been, will ever be.
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Zoro is being rayleighfied for some time now, some might even say he got Law'ed. It's not a very exciting development, but it's development. It came with a heavy price since he's now lacking that fun and carefree attitude he had pre-TS (remember Tarzan Zoro?), but the plans for him are obvious.
That said, I'm locking in my prediction that Zoro will face and beat King in this arc. At this point taking down someone of that calibre is simply needed to keep his role as the feared tough guy of the crew, and it actually has to happen before Jinbe joins and before we're heading into the endgame. It's not so much about taking down a powerful opponent, but someone with a mega fat bounty known to the world. There may be other enemies of similiar strength in Wano (like Foxface) but they don't have the necessary world-wide street cred.
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Been genuinely thinking Sanji might not deserve to defeat a Calamity.
Thankfully Perospero came around tho.
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Zoro is being rayleighfied for some time now, some might even say he got Law'ed. It's not a very exciting development, but it's development. It came with a heavy price since he's now lacking that fun and carefree attitude he had pre-TS (remember Tarzan Zoro?), but the plans for him are obvious.
That said, I'm locking in my prediction that Zoro will face and beat King in this arc. At this point taking down someone of that calibre is simply needed to keep his role as the feared tough guy of the crew, and it actually has to happen before Jinbe joins and before we're heading into the endgame. It's not so much about taking down a powerful opponent, but someone with a mega fat bounty known to the world. There may be other enemies of similiar strength in Wano (like Foxface) but they don't have the necessary world-wide street cred.
Zoro tends to take guys like monet, hyozo, pica. Even luffy had to take on the warlords and cracker before he moved on to katakuri that is the equivalent of king in the big mom pirates in the previous arc. And rayleigh looks more like a combination of nami, sanji, jimbe rather then zoro. And the black blades show shanks and rayleigh are not proper swordmen like mihawk. Like how some fans used to think rayleigh was previous WSS or something. He even uses legs like sanji. And now we also know bullet was above rayleigh from the former roger pirates, at least in terms of strength. Maybe even Oden.
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Zoro is being rayleighfied for some time now, some might even say he got Law'ed. It's not a very exciting development, but it's development. It came with a heavy price since he's now lacking that fun and carefree attitude he had pre-TS (remember Tarzan Zoro?), but the plans for him are obvious.
That said, I'm locking in my prediction that Zoro will face and beat King in this arc. At this point taking down someone of that calibre is simply needed to keep his role as the feared tough guy of the crew, and it actually has to happen before Jinbe joins and before we're heading into the endgame. It's not so much about taking down a powerful opponent, but someone with a mega fat bounty known to the world. There may be other enemies of similiar strength in Wano (like Foxface) but they don't have the necessary world-wide street cred.
Zoro finally gets to the country of swords and he is not fighting a swordsman? Doubt it.
Unless King is a hybrid sword user like Kaku was (and even then, Oda does not get to his version of samurai fight)…--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@uniaka:
Zoro tends to take guys like monet, hyozo, pica. Even luffy had to take on the warlords and cracker before he moved on to katakuri that is the equivalent of king in the big mom pirates in the previous arc. And rayleigh looks more like a combination of nami, sanji, jimbe rather then zoro. And the black blades show shanks and rayleigh are not proper swordmen like mihawk. Like how some fans used to think rayleigh was previous WSS or something. He even uses legs like sanji. And now we also know bullet was above rayleigh from the former roger pirates, at least in terms of strength. Maybe even Oden.
And crush them, not struggle and get stronger in the process like Luffy does, so false comparison.
Rayleigh is Zoro with smarts, but it is clear Oda is drawing painfully obvious parallels.
I would hold my horses on that, it´s apparent Zoro is going to turn Enma black this arc, it will not mean he will surpass Shanks, not even in swordsmanship alone.
Bullet is non-canon, and Oden apparently stood no chance against Kaidou more than 20 years ago, Garp literally called Rayleigh a legend, who in his old age could still match an Admiral. -
Stop bringing Bullet in.
BTW Sanji will be scopperfielded
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King is a swordsman. His sword is even clearly very detailed, so it's not just for show like Queen's generic looking swords.
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And crush them, not struggle and get stronger in the process like Luffy does, so false comparison.
Rayleigh is Zoro with smarts, but it is clear Oda is drawing painfully obvious parallels.
I would hold my horses on that, it´s apparent Zoro is going to turn Enma black this arc, it will not mean he will surpass Shanks, not even in swordsmanship alone.
Bullet is non-canon, and Oden apparently stood no chance against Kaidou more than 20 years ago, Garp literally called Rayleigh a legend, who in his old age could still match an Admiral.
It still shows what level of enemies oda gives to zoro, struggle or not. We don't really know how the battle was, all we know is that oden wounded kaidou. If it was a battle of kaidou, calamities, orochi surprised attack oden when he and his men were not ready, like how luffy and allies plan to surprise attack beast pirates at fire festival and get them drunk first, idk. Not like it's implied rayleigh would stand a shot with kaidou, getting tired after a few minutes with admiral -
Of course I can accept other outcomes, but won't do so without discussing what bothers me with fellow fans. You don't get to tell me there isn't a clear difference in Sanji's treatment now as opposed to Zoro and Luffy's, doesn't matter that fighting is their only real role in the crew.
Of course there is a difference in treatment. The whole debate here is about how much should anyone bother with it… and that's why I made that argument about supposing that Sanji is not a "monster trio" anymore and blablabla. Actually, all my arguments are about it, lol, like pointing out how he still makes his way into being relevant to the story despite the lack of remarkable strength feats. I even recall talking about the my opinion that the writing for Zoro has become lazy since the time skip, but that many people doesn't care as long as he is still kicking ass, which just helps to point out the current priorities of the majority of the fandom.
But helping Kinemon is not something only Sanji could do. I first brought up the matter while contrasting 2 of Sanji's skills; cooking and fighting. I see users pointing out he's a SH because he cooks and I can point out there might not be SH any more if he wasn't such a good fighter. Or such an intelligent individual.
So it was something that not only Sanji could do?! The way I see it that was an attitude that fits Sanji more than most other Strawhats, but whatever. Are we now disregarding what the characters do in the story because others could have done it instead? That doesn't make any sense to me, because what matters is what happened. And fights are mostly just as arbitrary, btw.
Like it or not, grand majority of problems in OP are solved with fighting. And if they aren't, our protagonists proceed to fight harder.
I feel Sanji has less impact on the plot not only because he's not fighting. Both Luffy and Zoro have had quest lines in this arc. Sanji doesn't have one as of yet. He's just participating, like rest of SH.
Like it or not, a lot of problems in OP are actually solved without fighting all the time. Furthermore, most of the secondary fights are not relevant for the plot, and exist only as self-purpose standout moments for the side characters.
We should not predetermine a restrictive list of ways that characters can have an impact on the plot, since this will only blind our ability to see beyond that. We constantly see them interacting with the story in different ways, or helping with different narrative demands, or fleshing out the colors of a conflict with their ideals, and it's up to us to pick up on those moments instead of dismissing them. WCI is a good example of that once again, not only because Sanji was at the center of the drama from beginning to end, but because he was constantly helping with different obstacles that were in the way… and yet all that some people can see is that he didn't have a big fight to show off.
Not all characters will be at the forefront of the story each arc (with the exception of Luffy). Sanji was a huge part of WCI, so there is no need to have a side quest of his own in Wano too. That said, Sanji got more attention than most other Strawhats because of his clashes againts Page One and Drake and the entire raid suit stuff. The guys who deserved more attention now were Robin, Franky, Usopp, Chopper, but unfortunately the Strawhats are being sidelined. Zoro obviously is set to be one of the stars of Wano.
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We should not predetermine a restrictive list of ways that characters can have an impact on the plot, since this will only blind our ability to see beyond that. We constantly see them interacting with the story in different ways, or helping with different narrative demands, or fleshing out the colors of a conflict with their ideals, and it's up to us to pick up on those moments instead of dismissing them. WCI is a good example of that once again, not only because Sanji was at the center of the drama from beginning to end, but because he was constantly helping with different obstacles that were in the way… and yet all that some people can see is that he didn't have a big fight to show off.
I felt like I was dangerously close to having a similar mindset before WCI happened. That arc really helped serve as a firm reminder for me that the crew can contribute and stand out in big ways without having 1v1 fights. Like for example, this is the arc that made a lot of people appreciate Brook a lot more, even calling him the MVP of the arc, despite not having a proper fight.
I still want and expect them, especially for this particular arc since fighting is the whole point compared to WCI, but I'm certainly no longer as pressed about it these days overall.
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Zoro finally gets to the country of swords and he is not fighting a swordsman? Doubt it.
Unless King is a hybrid sword user like Kaku was (and even then, Oda does not get to his version of samurai fight)…How does your version of a Samurai fight look like? Does it stop being a Samurai fight if the swordfighter is half dinosaur? Or if he uses other weapons apart from the sword (like a fire breath or something)?
Like, imagine he would be fighting Fujitora. Would that be a Samurai fight despite Fuji summoning meteors left and right with some gravity crushes here and there? My first reaction would be: hell no, what has that to do with swordsmanship. But then again, Fujitora is literally Zatoichi, who was technically not a samurai, but still a swordsman through and through.And with all that said, Zoro's options would be narrowed down to Kioshirou. No other high ranking sword guy around as far as I can tell. So it's either him or King, considering that he wears a fancy looking Katana.
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Personally, I want to see more of the other crew members fight more then Zoro or Sanji. Like could Franky handle someone like Page One? I mean, we're getting damn close to the main stage and I worry the other crew members can't handle Yonkou elites.
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How does your version of a Samurai fight look like? Does it stop being a Samurai fight if the swordfighter is half dinosaur? Or if he uses other weapons apart from the sword (like a fire breath or something)?
Like, imagine he would be fighting Fujitora. Would that be a Samurai fight despite Fuji summoning meteors left and right with some gravity crushes here and there? My first reaction would be: hell no, what has that to do with swordsmanship. But then again, Fujitora is literally Zatoichi, who was technically not a samurai, but still a swordsman through and through.And with all that said, Zoro's options would be narrowed down to Kioshirou. No other high ranking sword guy around as far as I can tell. So it's either him or King, considering that he wears a fancy looking Katana.
! also denjiro if he joined kaidou and is not kyoshiro
So far zoro's story in wano is with shogun, komurasaki/daughter of oden, yasu, the sword he got from komurasaki that said she would kill orochi if she could, but gave her sword to zoro instead because she… can't. -
I think at the apex there will be some plan to distract/weaken Kaido (which will be primarily Luffy's task, and potentially the other supernova), and that the only way to actually kill him (or maybe they don't actually kill him, but can incapacitate him, at least… since he's been beaten many times before, just not killed) will be a suped-up final attack from Zoro and Enma that does more than just scratch Kaido this time. Maybe even during the battle, in desperation, Enma awakens as a black blade.
The involvement of Big Mom in all of this throws a real wild-card into everything, though. I could see her doing potentially anything, considering her pragmatic nature. She's 100% in this to get Luffy, and will manipulate Kaido however she wants (and already has).
I don't know why, but I don't see the Zoro and King fight being any more likely than him vs. anyone else. Oda has purposefully been somewhat subverting our expectations turn after turn since Whole Cake Island. I mean, Luffy and Zoro vs Hawkins? Uh? Luffy wielding sword (poorly)? And I don't think he HAS to fight another swordsman... but goddamn is it getting frustrating that we haven't had a high-level swordsman fight with Zoro yet in the land of swordsmen... But I must be patient... Even if seeing Asura make Jack his beetch briefly was neat, I'm ready for the climax to hit, and it looks like it's coming pretty soon.
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Zoro vs Kaidou and Luffy vs Big Mom
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Remember when OJ announced they were going to close and we worried their users would come here and turn every thread into Zoro x Sanji discussions? The irony.
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I don't know why, but I don't see the Zoro and King fight being any more likely than him vs. anyone else. Oda has purposefully been somewhat subverting our expectations turn after turn since Whole Cake Island. I mean, Luffy and Zoro vs Hawkins? Uh? Luffy wielding sword (poorly)? And I don't think he HAS to fight another swordsman… but goddamn is it getting frustrating that we haven't had a high-level swordsman fight with Zoro yet in the land of swordsmen... But I must be patient... Even if seeing Asura make Jack his beetch briefly was neat, I'm ready for the climax to hit, and it looks like it's coming pretty soon.
Aside from Luffy fighting the big bad, the only other Strawhat that has a semblance of consistency regarding who they fight is Zoro. As in, he typically is the one to fight whoever the 2nd strongest opponent is, or the swordsman of the antagonist group. Sometimes they're one and the same (Kaku), as we're seeing with King. (I'm not counting Big Mom)
What makes things a little tricky is that he's been given setup to fight Orochi and/or Kaido. For Orochi, Zoro says he can't forgive him and that he will definitely avenge Yasu. For Kaido, Enma is hyped up as the only sword that has wounded/scarred Kaido.
But IMO King is still seemingly the most appropriate choice for a full-fledged 1v1 fight. He's presumably Kaido's right hand, he's a swordsman, it works. The only other potential alternative as some have pointed out is Kyoshiro, but that's a big question mark given how we don't have a good grasp on how strong he is, or what his true allegiance is just yet. It's also entirely possible that Zoro does fight King, but also finds the time to play a role in fighting Kaido and/or Orochi as well.
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I am more interested who Law and Kidd will fight.
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If King is a highly skilled swordsman, then I'm all for him vs Zoro.
Zoro hasn't been tested at all since the 2 year time skip. Pica was barely a challenge for him. Hyouzou was a joke.
Zoro needs a serious challenge, and King would be that challenge.
Though it raises the question if Oda wants him to face a top tier yonko commander, before he faces Shiryuu who is clearly someone for Zoro to face 1 day.
I am more interested who Law and Kidd will fight.
Kidd vs Queen imo
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@uniaka:
Zoro tends to take guys like monet, hyozo, pica. Even luffy had to take on the warlords and cracker before he moved on to katakuri that is the equivalent of king in the big mom pirates in the previous arc. And rayleigh looks more like a combination of nami, sanji, jimbe rather then zoro. And the black blades show shanks and rayleigh are not proper swordmen like mihawk. Like how some fans used to think rayleigh was previous WSS or something. He even uses legs like sanji. And now we also know bullet was above rayleigh from the former roger pirates, at least in terms of strength. Maybe even Oden.
Not having a black blade doesn't mean anything.
Shanks was a rival to Mihawk, and Shanks is of the 4 Emperor's.
Whitebeard's weapon was of the 12 supreme grade blades, it wasn't black.
Rayleigh was clearly a skilled swordsman, but he wasn't exclusively a swordsman it'd seem unlike Oden.
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Kidd vs king that tortured kamazo, queen plague doctor vs death surgeon Law. And sanji vs perospero sure fits well, based on how he was interested in the RS and was the one that captured germa but sanji saved them. BM maybe has now all the raid suits but not the best one, sanji's stealth black. And if pedro died because of peropero and makes sanji look guilty because he was there to rescue him, now at least sanji will avenge pedro. And getting like 800milion Bounty for beating peropero is more likely then beating calamity that all have billion or more and would make sanji jump into 5th yonkou's bounty range.
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As long as Jack will be fought by Sulong Neko and Inu I'm fine
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But who will fight Smoothie? And Big Mom?
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@uniaka:
! https://i.imgur.com/wVAZoub.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/xjOtuDf.pngalso denjiro if he joined kaidou and is not kyoshiro
So far zoro's story in wano is with shogun, komurasaki/daughter of oden, yasu, the sword he got from komurasaki that said she would kill orochi if she could, but gave her sword to zoro instead because she… can't.Oh yeah, Smoothie vs. Zoro. How could I forget that possible and very likely pairing.
Smoothie: Pirate Hunter Zoro! I've heard of your exploits. Mama wants your head for some yet to be revealed reason!
Zoro: Is that so licks sword
Smoothie: Such killing intent! Are you actually one of those people who dare to hit a woman? That would be a super rare personality trait, especially among New World pirates!
Zoro: What can I say, I don't like to slap a bitch, but I will she gets out of line
Exposition mooks: Woaahh!
Smoothie: Well then, draw your weapons (This is bad….!)Smoothie: Juicy-fruit flying slash!
Zoro: Sunatchiii!!
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@uniaka:
It still shows what level of enemies oda gives to zoro, struggle or not. We don't really know how the battle was, all we know is that oden wounded kaidou. If it was a battle of kaidou, calamities, orochi surprised attack oden when he and his men were not ready, like how luffy and allies plan to surprise attack beast pirates at fire festival and get them drunk first, idk. Not like it's implied rayleigh would stand a shot with kaidou, getting tired after a few minutes with admiral
No, it shows the level of opponents the Strawhats were confronted with period until now, which is why this arc is an escalation of that.
Zoro has always fought the second strongest when the Strawhats are granted straight individual fights, even in Dressrosa that was not different, or Fishman Island, only that the second strongest did not challenge him at all.
They were onesidedly massacred, as Kinemon put it, so it´s pretty obvious if you ask me.
He also did not stand a chance against Kizaru, but at old age he could stand his ground and implied he could do much more, now after not having fought for 20 years…
It´s pretty clear, the dude who fought against Roger equally, Garp, emphasized how special Rayleigh was and still is, no need to dillydally around it.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
How does your version of a Samurai fight look like? Does it stop being a Samurai fight if the swordfighter is half dinosaur? Or if he uses other weapons apart from the sword (like a fire breath or something)?
Like, imagine he would be fighting Fujitora. Would that be a Samurai fight despite Fuji summoning meteors left and right with some gravity crushes here and there? My first reaction would be: hell no, what has that to do with swordsmanship. But then again, Fujitora is literally Zatoichi, who was technically not a samurai, but still a swordsman through and through.And with all that said, Zoro's options would be narrowed down to Kioshirou. No other high ranking sword guy around as far as I can tell. So it's either him or King, considering that he wears a fancy looking Katana.
Oda assimilating the traditional samurai fights in OP version, similarly to how he did it with Zoro vs Ryuuma.
So yeah, Zatoichi with extra moves is fine since we do not know and understand about the techniques anyway, but he brings everything else to the table (personality, cane, appearance, behavior), a half dinosaur feels out of place in that, at least that´s my sentiment.With Oda really pushing Zoro as a Ronin/Vagabond type dude, and the emphasis on swords and samurai ethics, i think it leads to him fighting an opponent who fits exactly that, might be totally wrong though and Oda does not care about it.