I mean, leaving that aspect aside; would it feel good in the context of Croc's character that he would be so serious about that stuff to the point that Iva could claim to "take him out" by just disclosing the info or whatever? What, they're gonna laugh at him? Big deal. So even disregarding the meta reasons that make me think it'd be bad, there should be something more to it
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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I mean, leaving that aspect aside; would it feel good in the context of Croc's character that he would be so serious about that stuff to the point that Iva could claim to "take him out" by just disclosing the info or whatever? What, they're gonna laugh at him? Big deal. So even disregarding the meta reasons that make me think it'd be bad, there should be something more to it
Yeah, i've personally never liked the idea of that being his weakness, but it seems to be the obvious answer. I generally expect an Oda swerve though, so I hope it's something different or the reason for Croc originally being a women being his weakness is for an interesting reason.
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Imagine if the "weakness" Iva mentioned that was supposedly allowing them to keep Croc in check was something as idiotic and even problematic as "he used to be a girl lol!" though
Well… yeah. That's exactly the kind of thing Croc would want to keep secret and it would ruin his image, and its exactly the thing inside Iva's wheelhouse. And its exactly the sort of surprise reveal Oda would relish keeping in his pocket for 20 years that would surprise and twist everything.
Go back and look at the episode 0 image of Croc (seen from the back suspiciously) and the picture from childhood, they're both feminine tomboy looking. Now, the shot fromt he back may just be to hide the scar or lack therof, same as Shanks, but...
Several of those are really loaded with backstory details.
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Well… yeah. That's exactly the kind of thing Croc would want to keep secret and it would ruin his image, and its exactly the thing inside Iva's wheelhouse. And its exactly the sort of surprise reveal Oda would relish keeping in his pocket for 20 years that would surprise and twist everything.
Go back and look at the episode 0 image of Croc (seen from the back suspiciously) and the picture from childhood, they're both feminine tomboy looking. Now, the shot fromt he back may just be to hide the scar or lack therof, same as Shanks, but...
Several of those are really loaded with backstory details.
Yeah, I know the theory, and I wouldn't put it past Oda, but… would it feel good for that to be it? Imagine the scenario: Croc suddenly turning on them, about to kill Inazuma or 2 or even drain Luffy's water, or anything, and Iva going "did you know HE WAS A GIRL?!?!?" as if that's something that would unironically stop him in his tracks. The whole context where this exchange happened wasn't really gag-like either. I'm not even opposed to the whole genderbend thing, but if that was all there was to it then it would be pretty meh.
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Well sure, in the context of the war and the stakes involved that would have been a bad time for such a reveal…. and that's why it wasn't revealed then.
Iva wasn't saying "I have a specific kryptonite that will stop you cold", everyone in the group already knew his water weakness, (and anyone on the field that knew haki,) so it wasn't a weakness threat, that's redundant. Heck, Croc tried to attack Whitebeard when they first arrived at the war and Luffy stopped him cold, even without water. Physically they were all capable of stopping him, so its not a physical threat, it was a blackmail to keep him in line. "Don't cross us or else this embarrassing thing comes out" made as a threat in advance is more potent than if the same threat was made mid battle. (But yes, yelling that out loud would absolutely stop Croc in his tracks for a least a moment and make him lose composure.)
It being a secret that only Iva knows narrows it down a lot. Either it has someting to do with their history, or something to do with Iva's unique power set. And that power set just happens to be...
Also, OP at its heart is a fun series. It's absolutely willing to have someone stopped cold for the sake of a gag, even during a dramatic moment. Is it dramatic for Nami to steal Buggy's torso? Is it dramatic for Enel to have his eyes pop out when he discovers Luffy is rubber? Zoro wielding Usopp like a sword or then fighting a giraffe guy that turns into a cube? Beating Perona with a giant inflatable hammer? Beating SUgar with a scary picture of Usopp's face? Series is loaded with stuff that breaks up life threatening situations with a gag or a character flaw.
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That would certainly not help the "Oda is sexist" trend. Already last volume SBS have raised the issue again.
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See, even as part of the "Oda is sexist" crowd, I'm in support of transCroc and (depending on how exactly it was revealed and handled) don't think it would be anything problematic. And I think it is the best and most obvious option for the details we have about Crocodile so far. Even outside of concerns about image and the patriarchal world the story takes place in, it makes sense as blackmail material because revealing something like that would be unfathomably rude and damaging for a trans person, especially one who is passing flawlessly as/physically transissioned to their preferred gender. Yes, it wouldn't physically stop him from betraying anyone and would be impractical to just call out to the group if he started, but you have to consider what a deep personal blow that would be. It doesn't have to be a perfectly rational threat for that exact reason.
(And we can perhaps infer a further threat: "I know, and I can change you back." We've seen Ivan use gender changes as a punishment already, and I can only imagine it would be twice as bad on someone who had already experienced the pain and dysphoria of living in the wrong body and had thought they'd escaped it for good.)
At this stage Crocodile doesn't trip over any unfortunate sterotypes and isn't shown being any weaker than the rest of the cast because of his inferred trans-ness. He has plenty of history and personality to define him even without any kind of canon reveal, so it doesn't overwhelm his character as a trait. Oda's queer characters tend to be pretty loud and proud, like Ivan and his people, so I think it would be a good way to vary things to have Crocodile in there as a more low key trans representative. I'm for it, and I think it would be a positive addition to the series.
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We have seen Crocodile as female drawn by Oda as well.
however if that's all so, it likely means Crocodile's never been his/her real name.
I hope is called Karen.
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You also have to take the Romancing Saga 2 theory into consideration. I'm hard pressed to believe Oda would hardcore tribute any one thing that strongly, but it lines up really REALLY closely to the point coincidence is also hard to believe.
(At least going by people's summaries, I haven't played it myself The facts may be altered or simplified or exaggerated to suit the theory, but from what is presented it seems a credible theory.)
Aside from that, I think Croc being a woman would be awesome purely because it messes with macho asshole fanboys.
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We have seen Crocodile as female drawn by Oda as well.
however if that's all so, it likely means Crocodile's never been his/her real name.
I hope is called Karen.
Crocodile is farily gender-neutral as a name, but a change is pretty likely in the case of a transition. You have to wonder if the epithet "Sir" is something he pushed for himself, or just got coincidentally and was really happy about.
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My biggest issue with it has always been that it's by far the most obvious possible solution to what Iva was hinting at, which makes it likely for a swerve. Is there anything else it could have been and would anyone else who heard Iva say that imagine it to be anything else? To me, after so many years, it wouldn't be a satisfying answer.
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See, even as part of the "Oda is sexist" crowd, I'm in support of transCroc and (depending on how exactly it was revealed and handled) don't think it would be anything problematic. And I think it is the best and most obvious option for the details we have about Crocodile so far. Even outside of concerns about image and the patriarchal world the story takes place in, it makes sense as blackmail material because revealing something like that would be unfathomably rude and damaging for a trans person, especially one who is passing flawlessly as/physically transissioned to their preferred gender. Yes, it wouldn't physically stop him from betraying anyone and would be impractical to just call out to the group if he started, but you have to consider what a deep personal blow that would be. It doesn't have to be a perfectly rational threat for that exact reason.
(And we can perhaps infer a further threat: "I know, and I can change you back." We've seen Ivan use gender changes as a punishment already, and I can only imagine it would be twice as bad on someone who had already experienced the pain and dysphoria of living in the wrong body and had thought they'd escaped it for good.)
At this stage Crocodile doesn't trip over any unfortunate sterotypes and isn't shown being any weaker than the rest of the cast because of his inferred trans-ness. He has plenty of history and personality to define him even without any kind of canon reveal, so it doesn't overwhelm his character as a trait. Oda's queer characters tend to be pretty loud and proud, like Ivan and his people, so I think it would be a good way to vary things to have Crocodile in there as a more low key trans representative. I'm for it, and I think it would be a positive addition to the series.
What would your opinion be then if Crocodile's reason for having changed gender didn't involve any sort of gender dysphoria?
Maybe she wanted to "start a new life from scratch", desiring to leave behind her past relationships. Iva revealing that secret would reveal all of the problems that Crocadile had left behind.
Maybe, believing in an inherent weakness within femininity, Crocodile had asked Iva to become a man, to achieve a percieved advantage (or lose a percieved disadvantage) in the search for the One Piece.Both of these option lead to potential character arcs for Crocodile, with her confronting her past/ learning that women are not inherently weaker than men and that gender doesn't matter that much (which falls in line with Iva's and the newkamas' philosophy).
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What would your opinion be then if Crocodile's reason for having changed gender didn't involve any sort of gender dysphoria?
Maybe she wanted to "start a new life from scratch", desiring to leave behind her past relationships. Iva revealing that secret would reveal all of the problems that Crocadile had left behind.
Maybe, believing in an inherent weakness within femininity, Crocodile had asked Iva to become a man, to achieve a percieved advantage (or lose a percieved disadvantage) in the search for the One Piece.Both of these option lead to potential character arcs for Crocodile, with her confronting her past/ learning that women are not inherently weaker than men and that gender doesn't matter that much (which falls in line with Iva's and the newkamas' philosophy).
I would be disappointed if it was just one of the things you said, though the followthrough you suggested, making it into a character arc would help that a lot. But even so, I think I would interpret a transCroc from that. Because, like, changing your gender is a super extreme step for wanting to get stronger or start fresh. There are ways to do both of those things without undergoing a full-on sex change, so I think he wouldn't have taken that step if he hadn't felt at least a little like he should have been a man all along anyway. It all depends how it's executed, really.
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See, even as part of the "Oda is sexist" crowd, I'm in support of transCroc and (depending on how exactly it was revealed and handled) don't think it would be anything problematic. And I think it is the best and most obvious option for the details we have about Crocodile so far. Even outside of concerns about image and the patriarchal world the story takes place in, it makes sense as blackmail material because revealing something like that would be unfathomably rude and damaging for a trans person, especially one who is passing flawlessly as/physically transissioned to their preferred gender. Yes, it wouldn't physically stop him from betraying anyone and would be impractical to just call out to the group if he started, but you have to consider what a deep personal blow that would be. It doesn't have to be a perfectly rational threat for that exact reason.
(And we can perhaps infer a further threat: "I know, and I can change you back." We've seen Ivan use gender changes as a punishment already, and I can only imagine it would be twice as bad on someone who had already experienced the pain and dysphoria of living in the wrong body and had thought they'd escaped it for good.)
At this stage Crocodile doesn't trip over any unfortunate sterotypes and isn't shown being any weaker than the rest of the cast because of his inferred trans-ness. He has plenty of history and personality to define him even without any kind of canon reveal, so it doesn't overwhelm his character as a trait. Oda's queer characters tend to be pretty loud and proud, like Ivan and his people, so I think it would be a good way to vary things to have Crocodile in there as a more low key trans representative. I'm for it, and I think it would be a positive addition to the series.
I don't know. The issue here is that changing sex through Iva power is not really something inconvenient. The transformation is perfect and of no consequences. If Crocodile wanted to change sex, he couldn't be more happy than encountering Iva. Also, considering Iva philosophy, changing sex is not really a weakness so why would it be used as blackmail.
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Putting that much gender identity politics and nuance into it is probably well beyond Oda, so stop expecting "I was a man trapped in a woman's body" methaphor or a genuine look into a trans person's mindset. Given his history of how he handles okama characters, the Iva transformations in general, and his sort of sexist policies towards women (He's more forward than some Japanese authors but….) he's not going to get into the nitty gritty of transition or what that means for a person's psyche.... it'll just be "Yeah, Croc used to be a woman and felt too weak to survive in the world."
I give Oda all the credit in the world where its due, but that is decidedly one of his most glaring weak points.
It goes all the way back to Zoro's childhood with Kuina... her entire point was "A woman can't be strong in this world"... even though its a world full of devil fruits, haki, Rokushiki, Fishman karate, etc. So there's always been a sort of flawed message and tragedy in there. "Women are physically weaker than men" is what it boils down to, and I'd love it if Oda went back and properly challenged his own assertions after all this time, but given how he handles Nami and Robin getting fights, and the kinds of jokes he makes when he genderbends any of the characters in SBS, well...
He's gotten better in some respects, you look at a character like Koala or Carrot for instance... rough and tumble girls... (but still without any real fight wins to their credit) but then you look at Rebecca who was explicitly set up as a warrior... that never hurt anyone. Even Hancock, strongest woman in the world and dedicated fighter with full Haki control.... makes hearts and has love sickness feminine things. Or the old lady in the marines that turns people into laundry....
So no, Croc isn't going to be THAT nuanced. Just "hey, this big strong macho guy used to be a hot woman. Isn't that neat?" ANd... maybe will be again for the end of the series.
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It goes all the way back to Zoro's childhood with Kuina… her entire point was "A woman can't be strong in this world"... even though its a world full of devil fruits, haki, Rokushiki, Fishman karate, etc. So there's always been a sort of flawed message and tragedy in there.
I don't mind the Kuina backstory because East Blue was the weakest sea, all the seas are closed off from one another so only Marines/pirates/exceptions can travel between them, and plenty of people there thought Devil Fruits were just a myth (the only people we saw with Devil Fruits there were Luffy, Buggy, Smoker, and Alvida, and at least the former two presumably got theirs from being the Grand Line or someone from there).
You can chalk the whole "a woman can't be strong in this world" thing to East Blue being the Bible Belt of the One Piece world, with a bunch of hicks who have never tried to go beyond their own traditional repressed cultural sphere to expand their knowledge on individuality and tolerance. Even if they know people like Alvida might exist, they'll treat those cases as exceptions or accuse her of playing in a man's game behind her back.
But even then, that whole defense goes out the window since we know Kyoshiro interacted with the Revolutionaries, including Ivankov. And then there's the livestreaming technology being introduced to the One Piece world during the Marineford War.
So yeah, it's stupid.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Don't get me wrong. It's fine that Kuina didn't know about those things, and the tragedy of her dying before going out in the world to find out there is more IS a tragedy. Its a little difficult to reconcile that with Kyoshiro, but maybe he hadn't picked up on Kuina feeling that way… it was something she told Zoro in private after all, and then she died shortly after.
So that's not really the issue, but more that Oda continues to have those values permeate. Sure you get counter examples like freak of nature Big Mom, and characters like Bonney, but the whole "it's a man's world and only men should do the fighting, women are for babies and laundry and cooking thing" is just... there.
Even Tashigi, the obvious stand in for Kuina in Zoro's life, who will have some role in his stuff by the end, is by far his inferior in combat. Before the timeskip and even moreso after.... while Coby gets to keep getting stronger and powering up.
And then the whole Nami/Robin don't get real fights thing. They get skirmishes, they get their hands dirty and have some wins, but they don't get into combat the way Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Franky, and Usopp constantly do. Even during the fishman island showcase they only got fodder. (To be fair, Chopper and Brook don't get a lot of fights either, but...)
Kuina being wrong about the world would be fine if there was something SHOWING that she was wrong. And we've seen what the world has to offer and how a woman can be strong in it. And yet...
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@Count:
I don't mind the Kuina backstory because East Blue was the weakest sea, all the seas are closed off from one another so only Marines/pirates/exceptions can travel between them, and plenty of people there thought Devil Fruits were just a myth (the only people we saw with Devil Fruits there were Luffy, Buggy, Smoker, and Alvida, and at least the former two presumably got theirs from being the Grand Line or someone from there).
You can chalk the whole "a woman can't be strong in this world" thing to East Blue being the Bible Belt of the One Piece world, with a bunch of hicks who have never tried to go beyond their own traditional repressed cultural sphere to expand their knowledge on individuality and tolerance. Even if they know people like Alvida might exist, they'll treat those cases as exceptions or accuse her of playing in a man's game behind her back.
But even then, that whole defense goes out the window since we know Kyoshiro interacted with the Revolutionaries, including Ivankov. And then there's the livestreaming technology being introduced to the One Piece world during the Marineford War.
So yeah, it's stupid.
umm…...i don't get it.
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.”
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Zoro's master was giving supplies to the revolutionaries.
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Putting that much gender identity politics and nuance into it is probably well beyond Oda, so stop expecting "I was a man trapped in a woman's body" methaphor or a genuine look into a trans person's mindset. Given his history of how he handles okama characters, the Iva transformations in general, and his sort of sexist policies towards women (He's more forward than some Japanese authors but….) he's not going to get into the nitty gritty of transition or what that means for a person's psyche.... it'll just be "Yeah, Croc used to be a woman and felt too weak to survive in the world."
I give Oda all the credit in the world where its due, but that is decidedly one of his most glaring weak points.
It goes all the way back to Zoro's childhood with Kuina... her entire point was "A woman can't be strong in this world"... even though its a world full of devil fruits, haki, Rokushiki, Fishman karate, etc. So there's always been a sort of flawed message and tragedy in there. "Women are physically weaker than men" is what it boils down to, and I'd love it if Oda went back and properly challenged his own assertions after all this time, but given how he handles Nami and Robin getting fights, and the kinds of jokes he makes when he genderbends any of the characters in SBS, well...
He's gotten better in some respects, you look at a character like Koala or Carrot for instance... rough and tumble girls... (but still without any real fight wins to their credit) but then you look at Rebecca who was explicitly set up as a warrior... that never hurt anyone. Even Hancock, strongest woman in the world and dedicated fighter with full Haki control.... makes hearts and has love sickness feminine things. Or the old lady in the marines that turns people into laundry....
So no, Croc isn't going to be THAT nuanced. Just "hey, this big strong macho guy used to be a hot woman. Isn't that neat?" ANd... maybe will be again for the end of the series.
Oh yeah, it's a given that whatever Oda comes up with won't be that deep of a trans experience piece, and it certainly won't be presented in the western queer culture terms I'm using to talk about it here, and I'm more expecting something basic from which I can infer the deeper stuff. Though, there was that guy from Impel Down whose father apparently got a sex change just because he wanted it, so it's not impossible that could be the whole story where as well.
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I don't know. The issue here is that changing sex through Iva power is not really something inconvenient. The transformation is perfect and of no consequences. If Crocodile wanted to change sex, he couldn't be more happy than encountering Iva. Also, considering Iva philosophy, changing sex is not really a weakness so why would it be used as blackmail.
To Iva, it's not a weakness, but it's not about what makes him weak, is it? He doesn't have to be hurt by it himself to use it against Crocodile if it seems Crocodile would be hurt by it.
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But why would Crocodile be hurt by it ? That's what I don't get.
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Crocodile will never get as much focus as alabasta, or even marineford impel down. Why not reveal it when he had his own arc but many years later when he will be far from the arc main villain, and already had arc as ally after that.
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I can only imagine the shitstorm that will come if Oda decided to tackle the gender and transgender topic regardless of how he views them simply because the discussion on these topics are prohibited unless you want to mindlessly repeat the trendy words without the mob taking you out.
I do find it strange how Oda doesn't really get enough credit for at least not boiling his female characters down to simple token romance interest that MANY shonen series end up doing with its female cast. Well, that or "she is SUPER STRONG and IMPORTANT" role that the writers beat you over the head with. Oda does try to give them personalities, an actual characterization, and arc, regardless of the actual execution.
Just look at Uraraka from MHA if you want an example of how modern shonen series end up boiling down its major female character into… a generic romance tool simply because the writer couldn't really figure out anything better. Or Winry from FMA, series written by a female writer, who simply exist because you need a female character to be in the main cast.
People always complain about Oda's lack of fights when it comes to female characters but forget how he is able to keep both Nami and Robin in the main cast without making them into some shitty romance tool. Pudding was maybe the first character in the entire series that had actual romance stuff and it actually made the character more interesting because of her inner conflict. But aside from that, Oda has avoided one of the biggest tropes that even female shonen writers eventually start embracing.
Oda's female cast is not perfect by any means but compared to other shonen series, it's definitely not the worst.
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I think the main issue is that the treatment of his main female characters has decline in quality. There was a time when they were taken equally as males.
It's true that Oda is not interested in Romance. I don't know if he should be given some merits for it. There are other mangakas who have dealed the subject well so it is not an impossible task. -
Or Winry from FMA, series written by a female writer, who simply exist because you need a female character to be in the main cast.
Winry had a ton of personal agency and contributed to the story constantly. She was't a fighter, and that wasn't her role, and it never was. She didn't go from a fighter to a sideliner…. she went from an emotional support and a mechanic, to.... an emotional support and a mechanic. There's no betrayal of her character there. Other girls WERE fighters though, and they fought plenty. Hawkeye and Armstrong and Mei are all fighters and got constant chances to show it. Plus one of the main villains was Lust.
People always complain about Oda's lack of fights when it comes to female characters but forget how he is able to keep both Nami and Robin in the main cast without making them into some shitty romance tool.
This ignores that Nami's boobs keep getting bigger and bigger and her current default outfit style is a bikini with low drooping pants.
Or that in the first part of the series Nami got plenty of action. She wasn't a monster in East Blue and the early grandline, but she held her own, got fights, was crucial to winning some, got a 1 on 1 fight against a tough opponent in Alabasta and Water 7. Robin easily manhandled Pell and fought Yama and went for the kill on guys like Moria and Crocodile and Spandam.
But post time skip? For the last ten years? Not a single named fight for either of them. A little bit of assisting, but no spotlight. Even during the Fishman Island entire crew showcase Nami got… three fodder guys. After Luffy had taken out 50,000.
Nami's been a wedding abduction victim and not had a single named fight in ages. Robin... hasn't fought anyone but fodder, mostly nameless, since Skypeia.
It's not a case of "mah fights!", they don't need to being constant battle to prove themselves, but they HAVE moved far far away from it. East Blue Nami is a vastly different creature than current Nami.
You then combine that with characters like Rebecca or SHirahoshi? And you get devil fruit powers like "Makes soap bubbles" "folds laundry" and "makes big hearts", and well... Look at the jokes he makes whenever he genderbends characters in SBSNo, Oda's not the worst at knocking down his female characters. Especially among Shonen writers. But it's absolutely a weakness he has.
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I can only imagine the shitstorm that will come if Oda decided to tackle the gender and transgender topic regardless of how he views them simply because the discussion on these topics are prohibited unless you want to mindlessly repeat the trendy words without the mob taking you out.
I do find it strange how Oda doesn't really get enough credit for at least not boiling his female characters down to simple token romance interest that MANY shonen series end up doing with its female cast. Well, that or "she is SUPER STRONG and IMPORTANT" role that the writers beat you over the head with. Oda does try to give them personalities, an actual characterization, and arc, regardless of the actual execution.
Just look at Uraraka from MHA if you want an example of how modern shonen series end up boiling down its major female character into… a generic romance tool simply because the writer couldn't really figure out anything better. Or Winry from FMA, series written by a female writer, who simply exist because you need a female character to be in the main cast.
People always complain about Oda's lack of fights when it comes to female characters but forget how he is able to keep both Nami and Robin in the main cast without making them into some shitty romance tool. Pudding was maybe the first character in the entire series that had actual romance stuff and it actually made the character more interesting because of her inner conflict. But aside from that, Oda has avoided one of the biggest tropes that even female shonen writers eventually start embracing.
Oda's female cast is not perfect by any means but compared to other shonen series, it's definitely not the worst.
Thank you
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Winry had a ton of personal agency and contributed to the story constantly. She was't a fighter, and that wasn't her role, and it never was. She didn't go from a fighter to a sideliner…. she went from an emotional support and a mechanic, to.... an emotional support and a mechanic. There's no betrayal of her character there. Other girls WERE fighters though, and they fought plenty. Hawkeye and Armstrong and Mei are all fighters and got constant chances to show it. Plus one of the main villains was Lust.
This ignores that Nami's boobs keep getting bigger and bigger and her current default outfit style is a bikini with low drooping pants.
Or that in the first part of the series Nami got plenty of action. She wasn't a monster in East Blue and the early grandline, but she held her own, got fights, was crucial to winning some, got a 1 on 1 fight against a tough opponent in Alabasta and Water 7. Robin easily manhandled Pell and fought Yama and went for the kill on guys like Moria and Crocodile and Spandam.
But post time skip? For the last ten years? Not a single named fight for either of them. A little bit of assisting, but no spotlight. Even during the Fishman Island entire crew showcase Nami got... three fodder guys. After Luffy had taken out 50,000.
Nami's been a wedding abduction victim and not had a single named fight in ages. Robin... hasn't fought anyone but fodder, mostly nameless, since Skypeia.
It's not a case of "mah fights!", they don't need to being constant battle to prove themselves, but they HAVE moved far far away from it. East Blue Nami is a vastly different creature than current Nami.
You then combine that with characters like Rebecca or SHirahoshi? And you get devil fruit powers like "Makes soap bubbles" "folds laundry" and "makes big hearts", and well... Look at the jokes he makes whenever he genderbends characters in SBSNo, Oda's not the worst at knocking down his female characters. Especially among Shonen writers. But it's absolutely a weakness he has.
This, I don't get why bring up Winry even from the beginning Nami and Winry have different roles and for awhile Nami been moving more into a different role/dynamic since really W7. One thing I will at least say since Nami has gotten Zeus and her new clima tact she has gotten more dynamic/intuition to fight back in the new world which we haven't seen from Nami in a long awhile which I do appreciate but it can be better and leaves me hopefully she will.
Wano still hasn't given Robin much opportunity and she still the same overall to me which is a shame, I don't know if its just her power or just Oda not knowing what to do with her (I guess in the end its all Odas fault but I guess where it stems from could leave us other avenues to look at).
Rebecca will never stop being a disappointment to me and shit while Dressrosa has less females and shit compared to WCI I would say that arc (Dressrosa) is easily Odas worst arc when it comes to handling females in the series, WCI was an improvement for characterization with Pudding (easily one of Odas best female characters),Big Mom and such Oda still has a problem giving his female cast more battle time.
I don't know why we are bringing up MHA? True honestly its treatment of the female cast is worse then what Oda does not only from characterization, but also from a battle sense and sexualization/exploitation for the Male audience (I mean even if you look at Japan and other places they are still under aged) it shouldn't have much barring in this discussion of Odas handling of his female characters.
@blissed could say more about MHA
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The reason I brought up those examples is to show how the writers, instead of giving the characters their own sense of identity and character, end up making the female the typical love interest character which is ALWAYS downright boring and predictable.
I'm not really talking about the "actions" of the character here or whether they have some major fights since neither Nami or Winry are fighters. The difference is that Winry has ALWAYS been that annoying one-note love interest character who ONLY exist in the series to give Edward and Scar's conflict some personal weight. But even without Winry, think about FMA's female cast. Notice how they have strict stereotypical roles that restrict character writing. Armstrong's sister is supposedly this great leader that people will follow but there is literally no real exploration or moments given to that. Instead, it's just a cheap "SHE STRONG" that the writer consistently beats over your head. Strong female fighter doesn't make for a good or great character. It can be part of the character amongst other aspects but simply that aspect alone doesn't make for good female characters. Otherwise, FT would be one of the finest examples of female fights were the only thing that you needed to make interesting and diverse female characters.
If you have seen ANY Hayao Miyazaki films then I think you might understand my point.
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Winry had a ton of personal agency and contributed to the story constantly. She was't a fighter, and that wasn't her role, and it never was. She didn't go from a fighter to a sideliner…. she went from an emotional support and a mechanic, to.... an emotional support and a mechanic. There's no betrayal of her character there. Other girls WERE fighters though, and they fought plenty. Hawkeye and Armstrong and Mei are all fighters and got constant chances to show it. Plus one of the main villains was Lust.
None of them are interesting characters though. They are different in terms of "concept" or idea but the approach is still the same. They are all stereotypical one-note characters. They don't have much of a personality, identity or their own stories. They aren't interesting characters that I personally would like to see or learn about because there isn't much thought.
Nami didn't fight in Arlong Park arc yet her character, her behavior, her backstory, and the general story was interesting, emotional and had weight to it. Whereas Winry also didn't fight but her character was never interesting so even giving her fights wouldn't have made the character any less piss poor. Hell Winry and Nami even have similar types of stories except Winry lacks any real sort of impact and weight to it.
I only brought up FMA because it's written by a female writer, who more than any male writer, could've created multifaceted female characters with their own individual stuff and broken established cliches.
This ignores that Nami's boobs keep getting bigger and bigger and her current default outfit style is a bikini with low drooping pants.
Or that in the first part of the series Nami got plenty of action. She wasn't a monster in East Blue and the early grandline, but she held her own, got fights, was crucial to winning some, got a 1 on 1 fight against a tough opponent in Alabasta and Water 7. Robin easily manhandled Pell and fought Yama and went for the kill on guys like Moria and Crocodile and Spandam.
But post time skip? For the last ten years? Not a single named fight for either of them. A little bit of assisting, but no spotlight. Even during the Fishman Island entire crew showcase Nami got… three fodder guys. After Luffy had taken out 50,000.
I'm not really denying any of that. Nor am I saying that Oda doesn't have sexist views and the series doesn't have sexist outlook. It's been discussed to death and I agree with most of it.
It's easily One Piece's greatest weakness. And you would think that Oda might question his own views given that the dude has daughters.
My point is also that Oda, while being bad at creating a diverse female cast, STILL has managed to avoid the worst shonen female trope which is to simply make them love interest and have girls talk about the boys while the male characters have a crap ton of other stuff going on personal or otherwise.
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Maybe the issue is also that Oda fails to make evolve his characters. Most of them get their character growth during an arc dedicated to them and a flashback then it is almost the statu quo. Even Sanji who had a second arc did not get better treatment.
And let's not speak about Chopper. -
Well, yea, since One Piece is not character driven narrative nor the focus is on SH's themselves undergoing some massive changes. Adventure stories like One Piece usually aren't big on the characters undergoing massive changes. It isn't really the point as the story, events, and the world-building are the primary focus. Luffy, for example, isn't going to suddenly change and become more serious or whatever. He will grow as a leader but that doesn't involve him being completely different. His base personality isn't going to change. That applies to the rest of the cast too.
That and it's also hard to bring fresh stuff for the already established characters 20 years into the series. Hence why every arc has its own set of characters and plotlines or Oda having to split the crew and such.
These types of things are bound to happen given One Piece's scale. Oda has to sacrifice something to maintain the other stuff.
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I think you read a different Full Metal Alchemist than I did.
That and it's also hard to bring fresh stuff for the already established characters 20 years into the series. Hence why every arc has its own set of characters and plotlines or Oda having to split the crew and such.
These types of things are bound to happen given One Piece's scale. Oda has to sacrifice something to maintain the other stuff.
Naw. That's not the case at all. Obviously Oda can't give every single character growth moments every arc, that much has to be sacrificed, but there's zero reason he has to sacrifice ALL character growth. Luffy's declaration at the timeskip of I am Weak! Nami's change from someone who didn't trust the Strawhats enough to save hr at Arlong Park, to someone that trusted them implicitly in Strong World. Zoro's willingness to give up his dream for Luffy's sake. Usopp's slow growth into someone who isn't scared by much of anything… or how he dropped the "I'm Captain Usopp" joke cold after Water 7 because his experiences changed him. Robin's slow and gradual opening up, making jokes, and even having facefaults. When Jinbe switched from calling him Luffy-kun to Luffy-san (a detail lost in the english translation) and then Jinbe's decision to follow his own heart and join the strawhats instead of being a slave to Duty. The big blank spot still there on Brook's backstory. There's places and room for the characters to grow, and Oda has a little of it already in broad terms, Oda just chooses not to dwell on it.
Like Sanji just had a an entire arc full of growth, where he could have among other things, given up smoking and changed his attitudes towards always hitting on women. But in order to not deal with that growth, Oda literally erased his memory so he wouldn't have to deal with it for a few more years and he could keep having flirting with Nami jokes. All that growth and character stuff that could and should have come from Sanji dealing with his family? Sidelined and shoved aside to wait until... whenever the show up again. There was a moment for some real character exploration when Sanji went with using that suit... and nothing, just a throwaway line of dialogue. These are all things Oda actually had IN THERE, already did the work and setup for, and then chose to ignore.
Character growth doesn't have to be a focus to BE there, it's not a mysterious piece of story attribute juggling that must be sacrificed at the altar of pure adventure. It's there already. Just... also not.
If the man can stop and take time to give Senor Pink a chapter long flashback to flesh his story out, he can keep developing his lead characters too.
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I'm going to have to address the elephant in the room when it comes to the dialogue about women in One Piece looking similar.
This statement is almost always about "beautiful women" and yet characters like Lola, Chiffon, Kureha, Kokoro, Tsuru, Miss Merry Christmas, and Big Mom, to name a few, are treated like they don't exist. I would even add Perona because she is unconventional looking, but she's way more popular than the ladies I listed.
I get it. Ugly and unconventional women are outnumbered by the standard beauty look Oda goes for, but they still shouldn't be ignored whenever this topic comes up.
I'm not disagreeing with what's already been said. I'm just saying that, for the handful of unconventional looking women, there's a surprising amount of variety there that gets overlooked.
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Like Sanji just had a an entire arc full of growth, where he could have among other things, given up smoking and changed his attitudes towards always hitting on women. But in order to not deal with that growth, Oda literally erased his memory so he wouldn't have to deal with it for a few more years and he could keep having flirting with Nami jokes. All that growth and character stuff that could and should have come from Sanji dealing with his family? Sidelined and shoved aside to wait until… whenever the show up again. There was a moment for some real character exploration when Sanji went with using that suit... and nothing, just a throwaway line of dialogue. These are all things Oda actually had IN THERE, already did the work and setup for, and then chose to ignore.
I was under the impression that Pudding only erased the memory of the kiss. If you look at the panel the first frame in the film is Pudding in the same garb as what she's wearing at the moment. Maybe that's the last frame though.
And I guess if it's just the memory of the kiss that was erased it probably makes it worse that he remembers everything and hasn't necessarily grown from it.
https://imgur.com/nUzdHzS
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I was under the impression that Pudding only erased the memory of the kiss. If you look at the panel the first frame in the film is Pudding in the same garb as what she's wearing at the moment. Maybe that's the last frame though.
I'm not saying she erased his memory of the entire experience. But she erased enough that he wouldn't remember she was actually interested in him, so he'd keep thinking she just went along with everything for survival.
If Sanji doesn't know he has a fiance in love with him and waiting for him, Sanji can keep being the same old Sanji and harass random women for another decade rather than grow and change his shtick even a little.
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I'm going to have to address the elephant in the room when it comes to the dialogue about women in One Piece looking similar.
This statement is almost always about "beautiful women" and yet characters like Lola, Chiffon, Kureha, Kokoro, Tsuru, Miss Merry Christmas, and Big Mom, to name a few, are treated like they don't exist. I would even add Perona because she is unconventional looking, but she's way more popular than the ladies I listed.
I get it. Ugly and unconventional women are outnumbered by the standard beauty look Oda goes for, but they still shouldn't be ignored whenever this topic comes up.
I'm not disagreeing with what's already been said. I'm just saying that, for the handful of unconventional looking women, there's a surprising amount of variety there that gets overlooked.Old hags, tall skinny hags, and fat blobs. They may be easier to tell apart, but they still tend to fit into the same few molds. What would impress me is to see Oda draw a prominent average looking girl.
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I think you read a different Full Metal Alchemist than I did.
I read it a few months back and I didn't find any female characters in the series that didn't fit the shonen generic female template. Though I also do admit that I fully closed my brain whenever female showed up in the manga since they were practically annoying as fuck in the Brotherhood anime.
Naw. That's not the case at all.
That was my point as well. All those moments happened over the course of years and hundreds of chapters apart. Like Luffy claiming himself to be "weak" after Marineford didn't really change his base personality. He seems to have grown but it's just more subtle, which was demonstrated in Whole Cake arc, then say Luffy going from being himself pre-time skip to being like Naruto after a time skip.
Like Sanji just had a an entire arc full of growth, where he could have among other things, given up smoking and changed his attitudes towards always hitting on women. But in order to not deal with that growth, Oda literally erased his memory so he wouldn't have to deal with it for a few more years and he could keep having flirting with Nami jokes. All that growth and character stuff that could and should have come from Sanji dealing with his family? Sidelined and shoved aside to wait until… whenever the show up again. There was a moment for some real character exploration when Sanji went with using that suit... and nothing, just a throwaway line of dialogue. These are all things Oda actually had IN THERE, already did the work and setup for, and then chose to ignore.
I don't understand what would lead Sanji to change his attitude about hitting women in Whole Cake arc? I understand the part about the kiss and knowing that someone is waiting for him would stop Sanji from being his usual self and I still think that it will come back again later (hence the point about character growth being minimal and apart).
But I don't see how that arc translates to Sanji dealing with his not hitting women trait. Could Oda have used the arc to explore that trait more? Sure but I don't think it was part of whatever he planned.
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I don't understand what would lead Sanji to change his attitude about hitting women in Whole Cake arc?
Try reading that again.
Like Sanji just had a an entire arc full of growth, where he could have among other things, given up smoking and changed his attitudes towards always hitting on women. But in order to not deal with that growth, Oda literally erased his memory so he wouldn't have to deal with it for a few more years and he could keep having flirting with Nami jokes
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I'm not a fan of Crocodile being a woman because it is a validation of Kuina's fear. But maybe since then Oda did a 180 and Kuina was totally right and she was lucky to die before she became weak.
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Is it a validation? Or does it just show that Crocodile is also wrong?
I don't think so. The guy has became one of the pillar of the world order after changing his sex. Does he have a female rival he knew that went farther than him or some other thing that prove him that becoming a man didn't help him? Let's not start getting Oda more credit than he deserve.
It's like arguing that Tashigi is actually making progress toward her goal of not being a burden despite always being the hype tool she was.
In a manga where our hero Zoro was mad you could attack a woman and the villain was the one to point out that sex shouldn't matter in a fight(Enel zapping Robin) the manga doesn't have the context for it not to be another point against Kuina.
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None of them are interesting characters though. They are different in terms of "concept" or idea but the approach is still the same. They are all stereotypical one-note characters. They don't have much of a personality, identity or their own stories. They aren't interesting characters that I personally would like to see or learn about because there isn't much thought.
…...............................
I only brought up FMA because it's written by a female writer, who more than any male writer, could've created multifaceted female characters with their own individual stuff and broken established cliches.Really?! Man, that Nausicca signature is wasted on you….......
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.”
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I don't think so. The guy has became one of the pillar of the world order after changing his sex. Does he have a female rival he knew that went farther than him or some other thing that prove him that becoming a man didn't help him? Let's not start getting Oda more credit than he deserve.
It's like arguing that Tashigi is actually making progress toward her goal of not being a burden despite always being the hype tool she was.
In a manga where our hero Zoro was mad you could attack a woman and the villain was the one to point out that sex shouldn't matter in a fight(Enel zapping Robin) the manga doesn't have the context for it not to be another point against Kuina.
The only reason you would set up that reveal would be so you could eventually change him back after having learned whatever lesson needs learning. Because its not interesting to see that Croc was a woman and is stronger now. It's interesting to see this badass BECOME a woman, and still be strong, and challenge your notion of him having been a tough guy. Otherwise its an extremely shallow weird bit of backstory with no payoff.
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SImilarly, the X mark farewell to Vivi, one of the most iconic moments in the series, set up way in advance... that actual resolution was a last minute addition.
There's a LOT Oda makes up as he goes. And other things like Garp and Rayleigh and Brook that he plans way the hell in advance. That it fits naturally and seems like it was planned all along is part of why he's so amazing at this.
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Aside from that, I think Croc being a woman would be awesome purely because it messes with macho asshole fanboys.Sry for the late Response. I just think it's fascinating from a creative Point of view that Oda sometimes plans as he goes and sometimes he plans from scratch of the char. And speaking of Croc, I have to think, that Oda didn't really have a huge backstory for him @ Arabaster. When we were in ID, Oda was like "Yeah, Croc has a past, but I won't tell you the whole Thing right now." And in the case of Jinbe, who was planned as a villain originally (like Sanji assumed), Oda decided to take him to a total different route.
But I guess, that even if the SNs were thrown in "the last Minute", you can be sure that Oda designed them beforehand to introduce them later. They're just too "diverse and good" in design (like if we compare them to WB's commanders 5-16).
I'd also like if Croc was female back then (even though I am a Croco-Fanboy). Would add to his char being a bit of a d***, if he was a Sexist. If not, Oda tricked us for good back at chapter 0. -
I guess, that even if the SNs were thrown in "the last Minute", you can be sure that Oda designed them beforehand to introduce them later. They're just too "diverse and good" in design.
Not the case, actually!
That was always my assumption too, for years, because the story of "Oda made up this chapter loaded with these story important, diverse characters entirely on the spot" always rang really false for me. There was no way anybody, even him, could make that many important characters on the fly.
And because of HOW they were introduced, in a huge, prominent unique way that the series hadn't done again before or since, with the giant bold English names and the declared equal notoriety to Luffy, they SCREAMED important, and no matter what Oda's plans, or lack therof, were, they were bound to be important after that introduction. And you'd just assume a big bold intro like that meant plans.
SO for years my assumption was "he designed the characters beforehand, but them appearing at that point in the story wasn't planned." But nope. In more recent interviews, he doubled down on the fact that he made them up on the spot… but that he had no idea they were going to be important.
So, that's why that story of their creation feels weird. Oda DIDN'T create story important, visually diverse characters that fast. He just created visually diverse characters, and made them important later. And that's actually easier in some ways, because with no restraints he could cut loose and do literally anything he wanted as a one off because they only needed to be truly interesting for a couple pages each in that arc, and to that extent, it was okay to have a voodoo tarrot guy, or a generic mobster guy.
The power of their introduction makes you assume their "Made up in half an hour" origin is wrong because that just doesn't feel right, but the actual reason it doesn't feel right is different than expected. Same result on the overall conclusion, wrong way to get there.
Meanwhile you go back to something like the Thriller Bark General zombies... I'm almost certain the opposite happened. Oda introduced them with the intent of giving them fights, but then realized that would extend the arc ridiculously... so he just had Oars smash the lot of them, even after their big prominent unique designed intros.
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Really?! Man, that Nausicca signature is wasted on you….......
.. Ok, so what makes the female characters in FMA interesting? This place is an open forum for discussion. I assume you would be willing to go a bit more in-depth then whatever this post is supposed to be….
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.. Ok, so what makes the female characters in FMA interesting? This place is an open forum for discussion. I assume you would be willing to go a bit more in-depth then whatever this post is supposed to be….
All sorts of women- efficient woman, headstrong efficient independent woman, family type woman, villainous woman, adventurous woman; women of FMA are the most realistic bunch( in terms of interactions) i ever read in a popular mainstream shounen manga. Add to that minimalist fan-service and perversion. Also in terms of design and behaviours they were least repetitive.
No contemporary shounen managaka matches Arakawa when it comes down to the concept of 'necessary and sufficient'.
Of course I don't know what is the definition of 'interesting' to you…...“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.”
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All sorts of women- efficient woman, headstrong efficient independent woman, family type woman, villainous woman, adventurous woman; women of FMA are the most realistic bunch( in terms of interactions) i ever read in a popular mainstream shounen manga. Add to that minimalist fan-service and perversion. Also in terms of design and behaviours they were least repetitive.
No contemporary shounen managaka matches Arakawa when it comes down to the concept of 'necessary and sufficient'.None of the characters are really fleshed out beyond their shonen templates though.
I mean try explaining to me what makes the characters themselves interesting in their characterization.
Since you mentioned Nausicaa, let me explain it this way; both Olivier from FMA and Kushana from Nausicaa follow a similar type of base character idea. But whereas Miyazaki took the basic idea and created such an intriguing, interesting and complex character out of it, while also making the gender as an actual character piece, Arakawa simply went with "She woman. She strong. She smart. She beat men. She demands respect." cliched character whose character is never explored or explained. She is a great leader because the text says so. She is a strong female because the text says so. Characters respect her because the text says so. She can beat/abuse Alex because the text says so. Instead of her character being actually explored to add a level of depth and understandability, Arakawa simply chooses the laziest method of TELLING then really SHOWING.
That level of simplicity isn't exclusive to Olivier either. All the female characters are simple and cliched characters where Arakawa basically seems afraid to break the traditional shonen tropes. It says a lot about the characters when you can simply boil them down to mere words and lose nothing substantial.
Also in terms of design and behaviours they were least repetitive.
It depends on your standards of female characters, I guess. They were practically predictable and repetitive as shit for me. None of them were dynamic characters who were fleshed out and had relevant character arcs. They were simple, and same from the moment they appeared to the moment the series ended.
No contemporary shounen managaka
How? Arakawa literally used every cliched shonen female template and literally did nothing with them. Just because the characters aren't exposing their tits every five seconds, or the characters are different on paper, doesn't mean that Arakawa did anything special, or mind-blowing to break the tropes. Especially when she has to rely upon cliched romance sub-plots to make the female character stand out, who otherwise wouldn't be relevant, isn't worthy of any praise in my book.
Of course I don't know what is the definition of 'interesting' to you
Any competently written character that has their own sense of identity, personality, individuality, and their own story is what I consider to be interesting regardless of male or female.
So basically none of the female characters that Arakawa has written.
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It depends on your standards of female characters, I guess. They were practically predictable and repetitive as shit for me. None of them were dynamic characters who were fleshed out and had relevant character arcs. They were simple, and same from the moment they appeared to the moment the series ended.
How? Arakawa literally used every cliched shonen female template and literally did nothing with them. Just because the characters aren't exposing their tits every five seconds, or the characters are different on paper, doesn't mean that Arakawa did anything special, or mind-blowing to break the tropes. Especially when she has to rely upon cliched romance sub-plots to make the female character stand out, who otherwise wouldn't be relevant, isn't worthy of any praise in my book.
Any competently written character that has their own sense of identity, personality, individuality, and their own story is what I consider to be interesting regardless of male or female.
So basically none of the female characters that Arakawa has written.First of all, i like Nausicaa as a story very much and own special box set.
Secondly, it baffles me how did you miss all those characteristics in the women of FMA. They were fantastic in the regard that all of them had strengths and weaknesses.Also i don't need long ass story/backstory of a character to enjoy it properly, little touch of softness and humility can make a character fit in it's own place; why does it need to be a 'complex' one?
Also purpose of a character is to fit in the story, not other way around. Cliche is very overrated word.But you want perfect heroine. That's boring to me…....
