Star Wars Universe - Resurrection F
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In 20 years time The Last Jedi will be either be forgotten or remembered as the one that dared to take risks and shake things up, and fell flat on its face in the process of doing so.
It will be remembered as the one where the director clearly didn't really care much and the writers burned through plot elements really quickly and boringly. And for squandering the really neat likable cast and set up of 7.
But yeah, forgotten is right. It was insanely bland rather than "risky". The risky elements with Luke were fine, but ended up not mattering much.Movie sucked a big one.
Though not for lots of the really stupid reasons people were complaining about.
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The Force Awakens took a lot more real risks than The Last Jedi did; most of Johnson's risky moves basically amounted to throwing away things Abrams set up and having all of the characters act like complete idiots for the sake of the plot.
This this this this this.
This movie just goddamn, it should have had a sense of unity and purpose with 7. But it really couldn't have given less of a shit about being part of something larger than itself. It even fucked over 9 with how many things it prematurely resolved.
Like there's zero mystery or unknown left lol. Just "Welp guess they'll have to deal with Kylo.". I am genuinely completely uninterested in seeing 9 now, which even the shitty prequels did better than to at least make me want to see them clownishly depict interesting happenings.Like I think I dislike it more than the prequels!!! It's technically a better movie than those turds, and they ARE turds. But at least…. at least they felt like space operas rather than one elongated chase between two tiny fleets that apparently represent the sum total of a galactic war... at least they gave me FEELING. I could get angry at them!
What best sums it up is the RLM review. The dudes aren't even mad, they're just... you can tell the spirit of truly caring has left them. And something about that taste is way way more sour.
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I do think TLJ took risks.
Now was some of that the director (and I fucking WEEP for Ryan Johnston who is going to have to spend the rest of his life explaining this movie) throwing stuff out that was maybe, sorta set up? Possibly. But others I thought were interesting creative choices. Taking Luke Skywalker and making him a bitter old Vietnam-era vet was a VERY ballsy move, and I thought it was a stark rebuke of the "everything worked out post ROTJ" expanded universe Luke people had for decades. I enjoyed it, it made sense to me, but I FULLY understand why some people did not like it. That's ok.
Why are you giving him credit for burned out Luke, that was like the one thing from 7 that he didn't throw in the trash.
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They absolutely did that, and you know why?
Because they had to fucking coddle the prequel haters who had dominated the Star Wars discussion among casual and non-fans for the last decade and a half. Making TFA a 2 and a half hour OT handjob was something they had to do to get them back on board. If you think the TLJ backlash is bad now, IMAGINE what it would have been like if that had come out first.
Hey were you the guy with the nonsense theory that the prequels were risk takers and that secretly this is why everyone hates them?
Because everything about that is complete bullshit lol. -
@Monkey:
Like I think I dislike it more than the prequels!!! It's technically a better movie than those turds, and they ARE turds. But at least…. at least they felt like space operas rather than one elongated chase between two tiny fleets that apparently represent the sum total of a galactic war... at least they gave me FEELING. I could get angry at them!
I don't know, the more I think about TLJ the more I think it's worse than at least Revenge of the Sith. I can't think of anything in that movie as dumb as the Poe/Holdo rebellion plotline.
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I feel like the ultimate deciding factor for peoples opinion on Last Jedi is: Did you enjoy Force awakens or not?
I personally enjoyed Last Jedi a whole lot, and acknowledge that it disregarded or dismantled a lot of the setup from Force Awakens.
However, I thought Force Awakens was shallow, cynical, disjointed nostalgia pandering of the highest order, and that it did an absolutely terrible job of setting up new a new and exciting storytelling direction. I can understand people being upset at Snoke being discarded if they were really invested in him in Force Awakens, but to me he was a crushingly boring Palpatine knoc koff, so I was happy to see him gone.Watching Force Awakens, I could almost see the boardroom meeting demanding stuff like "Death Star! But bigger! Plans hidden in a droid!", and it just took me right out of the movie. With Last Jedi, I was intrigued the second Luke discarded the lightsaber. This felt new. Different. Unexpected. Speaking as someone who skipped out on Rogue One and has no interest in Solo ("its like a tour of Han Solos wikipedia page" - a review) It was nice to feel that way about Star Wars again.
Plus, strong thematic focus, and a denouncement of Chosen One narratives is always welcome. Last Jedi had plenty of narrative shortcomings, but I felt like I was watching a movie about something - something beyond "Hey! Remember STAR WARS?", like with Force Awakens.
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I really go back and forth on TLJ. On one hand it feels a lot fresher than TFA, which was comptetently made but a painfully uninspired step-by-step rehash of A New Hope with a full-on Mary Sue protagonist. TLJ's plotlines with Luke, Rey, and Kylo Ren were fascinating and easily the best part of the movie.
On the other hand, the 'main' plot of TLJ is horribly contrived and reflects the lack of understanding and respect for the franchise that permeates the entire movie. Everything from different physics to being too clever with the franchise traditions to casually destroying Abrams's plot points shows that Johnson had his own vision pretty distinct from established Star Wars. That can be good sometimes (aka the most redeeming thing about Rogue One) but probably hurt TLJ more than it helped it. And a strong third act can't redeem the previous idiocy of the characters and utter nonsense of all those plots.
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Say what you will about the prequels but they definitely benefited a thematically unified vision that felt very distinct from the original trilogy. The new movies really lack that.
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Being different from The Force Awakens and not being another retread was one of the reasons I liked TLJ when I saw it. But once that novelty wore off I realized the only parts that I liked were the stuff with Luke, Kylo Ren, and I guess Rey. The Finn/Rose plotline, while not as bad as I was told it would be (seriously everyone told be the Canto Bight stuff was this huge tumor on the whole movie, but it's only like 10-15 minutes in a 2.5 hour movie) is was passable at best, and the Poe/Holdo plotline is genuinely dumb.
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So basically
I cracked up at that one. But no, more like it’s bland and forgettable but not offensive.
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I don't know, the more I think about TLJ the more I think it's worse than at least Revenge of the Sith. I can't think of anything in that movie as dumb as the Poe/Holdo rebellion plotline.
I aggressively didn't care about Poe in 7, so I was just right ecstatic that they chose to have a big part of the movie revolve around that strange forced conflict with some lady we didn't know at all.
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@Daz:
I personally enjoyed Last Jedi a whole lot, and acknowledge that it disregarded or dismantled a lot of the setup from Force Awakens.
However, I thought Force Awakens was shallow, cynical, disjointed nostalgia pandering of the highest order, and that it did an absolutely terrible job of setting up new a new and exciting storytelling direction. I can understand people being upset at Snoke being discarded if they were really invested in him in Force Awakens, but to me he was a crushingly boring Palpatine knoc koff, so I was happy to see him gone.I wasn't excited in the least about Snoke from 7, but hey, that was 8's job. To actually introduce the character formally and do something interesting with him.
The solution 8 came up with wasn't a solution, they just crumpled up the paper and tossed it in a wastebin. No matter how much you liked or disliked Snoke that isn't anything other than bad lazy writing.
Also the least they could have done was fill in his space with some other antagonistic element, but uh whoops. No. Now we're headed into the trilogy's finale with even less threat and foe than we started with. Which is absolutely backwards as heck and really contributive to my total lack of interest in seeing 9.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I really go back and forth on TLJ. On one hand it feels a lot fresher than TFA, which was comptetently made but a painfully uninspired step-by-step rehash of A New Hope with a full-on Mary Sue protagonist. TLJ's plotlines with Luke, Rey, and Kylo Ren were fascinating and easily the best part of the movie.
On the other hand, the 'main' plot of TLJ is horribly contrived and reflects the lack of understanding and respect for the franchise that permeates the entire movie. Everything from different physics to being too clever with the franchise traditions to casually destroying Abrams's plot points shows that Johnson had his own vision pretty distinct from established Star Wars. That can be good sometimes (aka the most redeeming thing about Rogue One) but probably hurt TLJ more than it helped it. And a strong third act can't redeem the previous idiocy of the characters and utter nonsense of all those plots.
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Say what you will about the prequels but they definitely benefited a thematically unified vision that felt very distinct from the original trilogy. The new movies really lack that.
One of the worst parts of TLJ was the smallness of it all.
To be fair 7 had already been really sloppy and unclear on the exact nature and status of the factions, their sizes and all that. But 8 just full on swallowed that shit rather than attempt a fix or elaboration.Look at the original trilogy. You had Rebels, you had Empire.
With the Rebels you always got the feel that they were scattered in hiding all over the place, with a constantly shifting headquarters, and that they were growing in size with each movie.
With the Empire you always knew there was this massive galaxy ruling army, that we only ever saw fractions of. Even the fleet in Empire was clearly some sort of personal fleet for Vader. You knew they had a capital somewhere with an Emperor.In the new Trilogy we never got much a clear sense of any of this, partly because they were so desperate to mimic the rebel/empire thing even if it made no sense. And yes this was a sin of 7. But 8 decided to pretty much literally boil down that down to "here are all the rebels, and here are all the bad guys including their leader" and the conflict was literally one chase sequence in the middle of space somewhere.
Literally everything both sides possessed sitting in two opposing camps. -
It'd be cool if any Star Wars villain ever had some actual ideology behind them and their armies besides just "authoritarian!" but that might dilute how Evulz they are. With an evolving antagonist like Kylo they actually had a chance, but nahhhh
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@Monkey:
It will be remembered as the one where the director clearly didn't really care much and the writers burned through plot elements really quickly and boringly. And for squandering the really neat likable cast and set up of 7.
But yeah, forgotten is right. It was insanely bland rather than "risky". The risky elements with Luke were fine, but ended up not mattering much.Movie sucked a big one.
Though not for lots of the really stupid reasons people were complaining about.
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This this this this this.
This movie just goddamn, it should have had a sense of unity and purpose with 7. But it really couldn't have given less of a shit about being part of something larger than itself. It even fucked over 9 with how many things it prematurely resolved.
Like there's zero mystery or unknown left lol. Just "Welp guess they'll have to deal with Kylo.". I am genuinely completely uninterested in seeing 9 now, which even the shitty prequels did better than to at least make me want to see them clownishly depict interesting happenings.Like I think I dislike it more than the prequels!!! It's technically a better movie than those turds, and they ARE turds. But at least.... at least they felt like space operas rather than one elongated chase between two tiny fleets that apparently represent the sum total of a galactic war... at least they gave me FEELING. I could get angry at them!
What best sums it up is the RLM review. The dudes aren't even mad, they're just... you can tell the spirit of truly caring has left them. And something about that taste is way way more sour.
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Why are you giving him credit for burned out Luke, that was like the one thing from 7 that he didn't throw in the trash.
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Hey were you the guy with the nonsense theory that the prequels were risk takers and that secretly this is why everyone hates them?
Because everything about that is complete bullshit lol.That wasn't me. I like prequels, but those are flawed movies from top to bottom.
And burned out Luke may have started with JJ, but Rian Johnston took the idea and actually made something out of it. Credit where it is due.
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That wasn't me. I like prequels, but those are flawed movies from top to bottom.
And burned out Luke may have started with JJ, but Rian Johnston took the idea and actually made something out of it. Credit where it is due.
He took the idea and did it. That's pretty much the basic expectation.
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@Monkey:
He took the idea and did it. That's pretty much the basic expectation.
Absolutely, but he didn't throw that out to play it safe with the fans by doing an EU type of Luke. So that in itself was a risk.
Whether that worked for fans is a matter of preference. I loved it, though many didn't and I get that.
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@Monkey:
Like I think I dislike it more than the prequels!!! It's technically a better movie than those turds, and they ARE turds. But at least…. at least they felt like space operas rather than one elongated chase between two tiny fleets that apparently represent the sum total of a galactic war... at least they gave me FEELING. I could get angry at them!
I actually like Revenge of the Sith more than TLJ. It has obvious faults that TLJ doesn't have but - and granted, ROTS was the concluding chapter of a trilogy so it had that going for it - I like the overall story. I can get onboard with that. I can get on board with a man wanting to do anything to save his wife, a crazy emperor executing his master plan to create an empire and all that, despite the faulty execution.
With TLJ (and this fault belongs to TFA as well) the overarching story does not interest me in the slightest.
@Daz:
However, I thought Force Awakens was shallow, cynical, disjointed nostalgia pandering of the highest order, and that it did an absolutely terrible job of setting up new a new and exciting storytelling direction. I can understand people being upset at Snoke being discarded if they were really invested in him in Force Awakens, but to me he was a crushingly boring Palpatine knoc koff, so I was happy to see him gone.
With TFA, despite the repetition, I could enjoy the introduction to Finn, Rey and all that unfolded there. It didn't matter as long as the character were good, and they good.
@Monkey:
The solution 8 came up with wasn't a solution, they just crumpled up the paper and tossed it in a wastebin. No matter how much you liked or disliked Snoke that isn't anything other than bad lazy writing.
Also the least they could have done was fill in his space with some other antagonistic element, but uh whoops. No. Now we're headed into the trilogy's finale with even less threat and foe than we started with. Which is absolutely backwards as heck and really contributive to my total lack of interest in seeing 9.The Snoke bit is what people lauded as "subverting expectations."
The dude reforged the Empire and he's a force-lighting-using-Sith that has clearly been around for a while. If he wasn't a Sith I wouldn't care. But he is one. And this series based on the battle between Jedi and Sith needs to explain where the bastard came from!
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The Snoke bit is what people lauded as "subverting expectations."
lol, lazy writing is often abrupt and surprising when first encountered yes.
The dude reforged the Empire and he's a force-lighting-using-Sith that has clearly been around for a while. If he wasn't a Sith I wouldn't care. But he is one. And this series based on the battle between Jedi and Sith needs to explain where the bastard came from!
They also need to explain what the New Order is exactly, because (and again this was a 7 problem, but one that got worse when I realized they had no explanation) seriously. What is it.
-The Rebel Alliance is a motley hodge podge of revolutionaries. That will operate secretly, with whatever equipment and location they can find.
-The Galactic Empire is a huge mega authoritarian state with endless soldiers and starships. And it controls most of the universe or whatever.OK…so...
The Resistance is... what is it? They tried explaining it as like the unofficial hush hush way that the New Republic is fighting the Order.... or maybe it was supposed to be New Republic people who got sick of the cold war situation going on and went and started their own army? I think? Ok, but why is it called the "resistance"? What is it a resistance against? That name implies well... the same thing as "Rebels". What is it a rebellion against? It ... isn't right?
What is a New Order? Well ok, that would be a pretty standard name that some sort of evil fascist government would call itself. But wait though it's not a evil fascist government... it's um... well pretty sure they're actually the rebels in this situation. Reactionary rebels, but rebels nevertheless. And ones in like a default outside-of-mainstream-society sense. Ok so that's cool. What would that look like? Well it would be like the good guy rebels! Motley, hodge podge, rough around the edges. Secretive. Elusive. Not actually capable of having a straight ahead battle and winning.
But then uh... in the movies they're big, flashy, professional looking, and apparently after a single Death Star attack thing they possess the largest most powerful army in the galaxy. ......... huh???And what is their big plan? Was? If they truly toppled the Republic nearly off screen in 7, wouldn't their next move be to I dunno, take over important cities/planets and declare their rule? And maybe THEN mobilize a force to chase after the resistance?
Hell man that could have been the backdrop to 8. The Order has awkwardly but nevertheless pulled a coup, and yes, now the resistance really is what their name implies. And that would be a movie more about sneaking around and trying to regroup amid that backdrop. Rather than endless chase scene for the duration.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@TLC:
What if….and bear with me here, Rey actually joined Kylo Ren to end the war and the Dark and Light side alike. Only that didn't involve killing all the rebels (because why would it?) but actually brokering a peace treaty between both sides. The challenges would involve dealing with the extremist elements from both sides as well as trying to soothe years if not decades of animosity. It'd be an intriguing idea with clear thematic relevance to current socio-political events.
ahahahaha whoaaa WHOAAA, I think we all missed this hot take where (unsurprisingly) TLC thinks a movie about compromising with literal space Nazis is a good powerful message for the current times.
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How about instead writing them like Nazis, they were written as….an actual three dimensional group with an identity and agenda outside of let's spread evil and take over the galaxy? What do they even want? How do they fit into the political structure of the galaxy? Like aren't they technically the rebels in this story and the Republic was supposed to be the current regime in power? I'm just saying for a movie that's supposed to be so risque and original, the fact that it boils down back to David vs Goliath is boring af. A story about fighting Nazis has been done to death in the original trilogy. A different tale with more nuanced sides and less clean solutions than killing the evil emperor would be more interesting.
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Yep, that bothered me all the time. The Resistence is down to one Aluminum Falcon. How the F does that happen? The Order destroys some core planets and the whole galaxy is just: Whelp they killed the new Death Star thankfully, let's do nothing about it.
Let's ignore the Order's fleets and don't fund the Resistance at all…
Why??? I sense a typical Star Wars trope, but up to eleven. -
I don't know if Force Awakens is a good movie. I know I freaking hated the leads(black comic relief and Mary sue), Didn't care for Poe, didn't like the context(erase the ending of the 6 movies), and found the plot just ok.
The stormtrooper had no reason to be the usual black comic relief and I hated how Rey was Mary Sue that was hugged by Leia instead of Chewie when Solo died and made the force way to easy. I definitely hated the whole idea of going back to the underdog rebel forces figthing the bad empire/First Order. 6 movies telling the stories of the fall of the jedis and the road to reconquering freedom and first time you are back it's pretty back to square one. It kinds of send the trilogy ending to the trash as far as I am concern.
Last Jedi I think is full of problems but since I loved the relationship between Rey and Kylo and the triple flashback I liked a lot. This single plot thread I like in this movie to me is enough to enjoy it more than Force Awakens.
Did Last Jedi trash a lot of Force Awakens? Probably. Did I liked force Awaken enough to care? Nope. But I will say the force Awakens has an awesome moment when Kylo stops the beam and I hated Poe humorous discussion at the beginning of last Jedi.
I actually think what would have been interesting is have TLJ plot for the first movie. The Reublic isn't struggling and the first Oder is the underdog struggling to get on top. Leia secede and sends after Luke not because the FO is in the brink of winning but because her son has defected to the bad guys and the republic refuse to show any mercy and will crush this growing threat without regard.
The movie is then more a personal stake story for the Skywalker and when is someone to far gone rather than a rehash of the rebels trying to overthrow the Super powerful empire.
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Maybe my memory is hazy or something and I might have glossed over Force Awakens since I caught by chance on Starz but I don't recall Finn being comic relief in that movie.
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I don't understand why people give TFA flack for being a rehash of ANH but are perfectly fine with TLJ being a badly botched Cliff Notes version of ESB.
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Maybe my memory is hazy or something and I might have glossed over Force Awakens since I caught by chance on Starz but I don't recall Finn being comic relief in that movie.
The easisest thing I can think off is everything in the ship from the manerism when talking to BB8, asking about a Rey's possible boyfriend or funnily falling when Rey pass him BB8. Classic of a comedy relief.
It usually doesn't bother me because it make sense in the movie universes or with the character. But the whole tragic storm trooper that suddenly reveals himself to be a lovable klutz filled with comedic timing and expressionism once the mask is off really took me out of the character. And I really fill it was influence by the black guy being usually a good comic relief(which I enjoy in different movies but seemed out of place there).
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It's becoming more and more clear to me now that people really didn't want more Star Wars despite saying for years they did.
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I get the impression a shitload of people went to see both movies. And a great number of people seems to like at least one of the movies.
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Uh, Finn definitely isn't 'black comic relief character' and it's pretty racist to relegate him to that. Everyone cracks some jokes, but you wouldn't call Han or Leia just comic relief. Finn might take the backseat in the second movie but he's arguably more prominent in TFA than either of those two were in ANH.
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Uh, Finn definitely isn't 'black comic relief character' and it's pretty racist to relegate him to that. Everyone cracks some jokes, but you wouldn't call Han or Leia just comic relief.
He doesn't just crack jokes, he is the character you suppose to get laugh because of his actions and expressions also. He is a comic relief and a main character. To me it clashed with the upbringing and tragedy presented at the begenning about this stormtrooper and made it hard to take his character seriously. If those opinions makes me a racist concerning this movie I accept that.
If I had to choose a stereotype for Han and Leia it would "Shady smuggler" and "damsell in distress".
Finn might take the backseat in the second movie but he's arguably more prominent in TFA than either of those two were in ANH.
He is a main character in that the force awakens. I acknowledged that. My point was that while I appreciate the choices for the leads/main characters I didn't enjoy the actual characters. One for being a Mary sue the other being a comic relief. Both were definitely the main characters.
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It's becoming more and more clear to me now that people really didn't want more Star Wars despite saying for years they did.
Personally my reaction when they announced that there would be more Star Wars was "What? No! That's a terrible idea!" and though it seems I like TFA and TLJ a lot more than most here, I still stand by this whole escapade being kind of… obviously made just for the money. And I do agree with everyone who says that it feels like there's nothing interesting left to do for Episode IX.
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It's becoming more and more clear to me now that people really didn't want more Star Wars despite saying for years they did.
I'm very conflicted on this. Anakin fulfilled his prophesy and brought balance to the force. Regardless of how anyone feels about prophesies and chosen ones, that is the narrative George put forth. Evil cannot be truly eradicated of course and there's no reason there wouldn't be another threat but, by continuing the story you put a 30-year timer on that prophesy. Supposedly there was more than a thousand year of relative Sith-free peace before Phantom Menace.
If the sequel trilogy was done better perhaps I wouldn't be saying the above, though.
I'm looking forward to when Disney takes a risk at making a Star Wars film set during the Old Republic (retool, scrap whatever you want). Different time, different Jedi Council, different Jedi vs Sith status queoe (don't know how to spell this word).
I don't see Rian Johnson's new trilogy being that.
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I enjoy the sequel trilogy, but if we are going to go through a fanboy seizure everytime a new Star Wars movie comes out, then I just don't think it is worth it.
I mean "backlash" was expected, but this has been something else, and it just makes me feel that Star Wars is never going to be what those fans want it to be, and maybe it never was.
I am just so glad I grew up with the prequels.
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Solo feels the most like an actual Star Wars film of what Disney has done so far but still feels off at times. Pretty enjoyable for the most part.
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Can't wait till Disney finally milked the nostalgia dry and you know…maybe did some actual new stuff in this universe, without constantly shoving old characters in. Hype for stupid boba fett movie, lando? Who the fk cares.
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Can't wait till Disney finally milked the nostalgia dry and you know…maybe did some actual new stuff in this universe, without constantly shoving old characters in. Hype for stupid boba fett movie, lando? Who the fk cares.
Well obviously people who either don't like them do to overhyped they are in Fett's case or don't like them because their no good sellouts like Lando.
And then there's of course the people who've never heard of them because they've never seen Star Wars or simply don't like it to start with.
Now if we really want to talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel do we really need an Obi Wan spinoff if that rumor is true.
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Disney and Lucasfilm's Solo: A Star Wars Story is struggling in its debut at the Memorial Day box office, where it could come in well behind expectations with about a $115 million four-day holiday. The projected three-day weekend tally sees the movie just topping $90 million-plus.
The Han Solo origin story is pacing well behind fellow standalone movie, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016), which took in $29 million in Thursday-evening previews on its way to a $71 million Friday and a three-day debut of $155 million.Seems like Solo is struggling in the Box Office.
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The Han Solo origin story is pacing well behind fellow standalone movie, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016), which took in $29 million in Thursday-evening previews on its way to a $71 million Friday and a three-day debut of $155 million.
I'd say TLJ played a pretty big role in this especially seeing as how it came between those two films.
A lot of people will blame competition and franchise fatigue but it was the only new wide release this weekend and Marvel films are still doing great despite the fact that there's almost been one a month so far this year.
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Yeah, it's not franchise fatigue, it's "that last was was eh" fatigue.
Similarly, Marvel movies are all making a billion dollars while Justice League flopped…. because the DCU movies have been bad and unliked. (Except Wonder Woman)
Franchises can run almost indefinitely and pretty regularly until they have one really bad one or a couple mediocre outings in a row. Look at Batman's track record that got stopped short by Batman and Robin which ended all comic movies forever... for like 3 years. ANd then X-men came out.
Or Spiderman 3 which tainted the series so badly that.... they rebooted and had a new one three years later. Which they then rebooted again and handed over to marvel like two years after that.
Or James Bond that has managed to run basically continuously for decades.Heck, popular tv shows are able to run for 7-10 years with 22 episodes a year and get spinoffs and be fine. (Maybe creative slumps or lesser seasons but...)
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Solo was not a very good movie. Woof.
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I'd say TLJ played a pretty big role in this especially seeing as how it came between those two films.
A lot of people will blame competition and franchise fatigue but it was the only new wide release this weekend and Marvel films are still doing great despite the fact that there's almost been one a month so far this year.
Yeah, it's not franchise fatigue, it's "that last was was eh" fatigue.
Similarly, Marvel movies are all making a billion dollars while Justice League flopped…. because the DCU movies have been bad and unliked. (Except Wonder Woman)
Theres way too many variables to make a "TLJ is hurting Solos box office!" declaration. For one thing, while its the only wide release this week, its still competing with the biggest superhero release of all time, and a sequel to 2016s biggest surprise hit. Seriously, Deadpool is making almost 50 million in its second weekend, thats no small-scale competition. Rogue Ones major challenger was Moana, which had been out for a month at the time. TLJs competition? Coco and Ferdinand.
And owned by Disney though they both may be, Star Wars is not the MCU. The comparison is not 1:1. The MCU went years before scaling up their output to more than yearly at most, whereas Star Wars has been a christmas tradition for 3 years straight… until now. Beyond that, ever-increasing Box Office is no guarantee, even or Marvel - Age of Ultron did worse than Avengers, and Ant Man only earned a "pitiful" 500 million after that. Doctor Strange made way less than Black Panther, which made more than Thor 3...people have varying degrees of interest within the brand.
People not just being that interested in a Han Solo prequel movie is a valid an explanation as any for why it didn't make obscene profit, and just good profit. Rogue One made more, but still wayyyyyyyyy less than the much beloved Force Awakens it followed up. And as for the responsibility of TLJ in turning people off, sure, that might be true for some people. Plenty of other people might specifically check out Solo as a "Proper Star Wars" antidote to TLJ, but we can't know for sure how many.
What we do know is that Last Jedi scored a higher grade than Solo from opening night audiences (A vs A-, based on Cinemascore.com), and was the most profitable movie of 2017. Online discourse might be split down the middle concerning the movie but moviegoers who don't partake in online fan debates - i.e. most people - seemed to like it.Again, Solos performance can be due to any number of things, including Last Jedi. But maybe also the fact that a prevalent attitude towards the movie since the day it was announced has been "What, really? Why? Whatever."
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@Daz:
Beyond that, ever-increasing Box Office is no guarantee, even or Marvel - Age of Ultron did worse than Avengers, and Ant Man only earned a "pitiful" 500 million after that.
Yes, but its generally agreed that AoU simply wasn't as good as the first Avengers… and Ant-Man is an incedibly hard pitch to sell new property. Meanwhile the liked Avengers 3 is making a lot more than Avengers 2.
Doctor Strange made way less than Maybe Black Panther, which made more than Thor 3…
Stange was a new property (but with easy to sell visuals and a not-stupid name like Ant-Man.) BP had an intro in Civil War and the whole black futurist finally a black superhero thing going on. ANd Thor 3 was the first good Thor movie and it right did better than Thor 1 and 2. THose were all really predictable outcomes. Maybe not BP doing quite as well as it's doing, but those could have all been roughly predicted. Yes, the Marvel brand alone isn't going to guarantee billion dollar movies, same way Pixar doesn't. Especially with new IPs.
But Star Wars is… Star Wars. This is the first time we've EVER had this many SW film in this many years, and getting weird mixed reactions. And this one isn't a new property. It'd be one thing if this was "Star Wars: IG-88" or "Star Wars: KoTOR". But "Star Wars: Han Solo" is not a new brand. Its one of the most iconic characters of the original trilogy surrounded by other known characters and should be an easy pitch..
That aside, yes, the current competition of Avengers 3 and Deadpool and a summer instead of winter release is clearly a factor as well.
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Yes, but its generally agreed that AoU simply wasn't as good as the first Avengers… and Ant-Man is an incedibly hard pitch to sell new property. Meanwhile the liked Avengers 3 is making a lot more than Avengers 2.
Stange was a new property (but with easy to sell visuals and a not-stupid name like Ant-Man.) BP had an intro in Civil War and the whole black futurist finally a black superhero thing going on. ANd Thor 3 was the first good Thor movie and it right did better than Thor 1 and 2. THose were all really predictable outcomes. Maybe not BP doing quite as well as it's doing, but those could have all been roughly predicted. Yes, the Marvel brand alone isn't going to guarantee billion dollar movies, same way Pixar doesn't. Especially with new IPs.
What are you basing these claims on? Beyond personal opinion, why a movie with cool visuals like Ant Man that much harder to pitch than a movie with cool visuals and a wizard named Doctor Strange, or a movie featuring a talking tree and racoon?
You can't always accurately predict audience taste. You can't directly assume that below-expected performance of Solo must be due to factors beyond the movie, maybe the premise and marketing of Solo just didn't appeal to people.But Star Wars is… Star Wars. This is the first time we've EVER had this many SW film in this many years, and getting weird mixed reactions. And this one isn't a new property. It'd be one thing if this was "Star Wars: IG-88" or "Star Wars: KoTOR". But "Star Wars: Han Solo" is not a new brand. Its one of the most iconic characters of the original trilogy surrounded by other known characters and should be an easy pitch..
Thats the thing though: We've been marinated in Original Trilogy nostalgia since the first of this new Star Wars wave landed 2½ years ago. With Marvel movies you can have multi-year breaks between offerings for particular characters and settings, whereas the first new SW movie was loaded with OT iconography and characters, including a Death Star, the falcon, Leia, Chewie, Han etc. Then a year later we got another OT celebration featuring the Death Star and Darth Vader, the year later we saw the Falcon, Leia, Chewie and Luke again…and 6 months after that, its all about Han Solo, the Falcon and Chewie. Again. Also Lando this time, but still, the MCU didn't start out pushing Iron Man and the other Avengers into every movie on a sub-yearly basis.
Maybe some people stayed away from Solo after disliking Last Jedi. Thats possible. But another likely reaction is that maybe all the people who felt Last Jedi was a breath of fresh air aren't feeling Solo because its the exact opposite. Even looking at many of the people who liked the movie, theres a lot of "pleasant surprise!" "better than it has any right to be!" and "Totally unnecessary, but fun!" going around. Thats not the kind of attitude that gets butts in seats.
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@Daz:
What are you basing these claims on? Beyond personal opinion, why a movie with cool visuals like Ant Man that much harder to pitch than a movie with cool visuals and a wizard named Doctor Strange,
Because the general consensus is AOU was less good than first Avengers. Lower metacritic/tomato score, lower box office, more talk about its faults, less people talking about seeing it multiple times or it being their favorite movie.
As for Ant Man… Ant-Man's own advertising explicitly and repeatedly went "i know, I know, its a stupid name and a stupid power on a C list character you haven't heard of, shrinking and talking to ants sounds really dumb I didn't pick it, but trust me it'll be fine, look at every single visual this movie has to offer including this train set action sequence from the end of the movie."
While Dr. Stange just showed off the crazy visuals from the first 20 minutes of the film and didn't need to apologize for anything.
or a movie featuring a talking tree and racoon? How do you adjust for taste in terms of box office reciepts ?
Guardians pitched itself as a crazy sci-fi comedy with a retro soundtrack… in a market where we didn't have Star Wars back yet. People got past the tree and racoon the same way they got past droids and Chewbacca. It's sci-fi space thing, it's allowed to be extra crazy.
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Ant-man worked because it was the perfect antidote to Superhero bloat that came with Age of Ultron, where people were more concerned about how things were going to fit in, hunting for easter eggs, etc instead of just watching a fun superhero flick Ant-man and Doctor Strange work because they show up, tell their story and move on. In strange's case there is a bit of MCU building, but that isn't the entire fucking point of the movie which was Age of Ultron's problem.
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Because the general consensus is AOU was less good than first Avengers. Lower metacritic/tomato score, lower box office, more talk about its faults, less people talking about seeing it multiple times or it being their favorite movie.
Well, since Solo is obviously recieving poorer reviews and less box office earnings than Last Jedi, that should serve as an indication that people just didn’t like as much as prior movies, right?
And if we assumed we could somehow quantify "More discussion of faults" or less “people rewatching it”, beyond personal anecdotal experience in online fan-discussions…that doesn’t explain opening weekend box office.
As for Ant Man… Ant-Man's own advertising explicitly and repeatedly went "i know, I know, its a stupid name and a stupid power on a C list character you haven't heard of, shrinking and talking to ants sounds really dumb I didn't pick it, but trust me it'll be fine, look at every single visual this movie has to offer including this train set action sequence from the end of the movie."
While Dr. Stange just showed off the crazy visuals from the first 20 minutes of the film and didn't need to apologize for anything.
Guardians pitched itself as a crazy sci-fi comedy with a retro soundtrack... in a market where we didn't have Star Wars back yet. People got past the tree and racoon the same way they got past droids and Chewbacca. It's sci-fi space thing, it's allowed to be extra crazy.
You talk with the benefit of hindsight as if peoples receptiveness to marketing and concepts are 100% predictable. That obviously people would be insanely hooked by Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle, or Deadpool, or Black Panther, or Get Out, and that obviously Mad Max Fury Road or Kong: Skull Island would’nt be nearly as big hits. And that since this hypothetical predictive model calculates that Solo should be a surefire hit, surely some outside force must be responsible for its failings.
Might it not instead simply be that people weren’t as susceptible to the marketing and conceit of the movie as Disney assumed? Maybe people thought the trailers were off. That the posters were ugly. That it was too soon for a new movie. That the concept was uninteresting. That the leads didn’t look the part. Theres all sorts of reasons people might not be as into this prequel-spinoff movie, beyond a fan subset being Mad Online at the prior 1.4 billion dollar grossing entry. -
! My only thoughts on Solo are that Darth Maul has had one hell of a career trajectory.
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@Cyan:
! My only thoughts on Solo are that Darth Maul has had one hell of a career trajectory.
! It's actually kind of amazing how Clone Wars and Rebels took such an inherently ludicrous idea and did so much with it that, in the end, he actually winds up with one of the more poignant death scenes in the entire franchise.
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Saw Solo. Most of the movie was good, but I had a hard time following a lot of the character motivations during the final sequence. Not sure how much of that is on me, and how much is the movie being unclear.
I THINK I understand now, but some of it still doesn't sit right with me.
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I'm pretty sure the initial feeling I had the moment all these extra SW movies coming out was announced might just have been a decent hunch, that people are going to burn out hard on too much Star Wars. A lot of the legend and hype built up from lack of Star Wars.
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Went to the theater but it was Solo.(heh)
So I left it, it deserves to fail. We wanted Obi Wan movie!! -
@Daz:
You talk with the benefit of hindsight as if peoples receptiveness to marketing and concepts are 100% predictable.
Well no, obviously no one has a perfect track record on that or they'd be super sought after industry expert, and I can't begin to claim I can personally estimate how much a movie is going to make to the million. I couldn't tell you that Avengers 3 was going to hit a billion dollars on day 10 or day 20, but I was pretty damn confident it was going to hit 1.5 billion or more without much trouble, especially on the heels of Panther (and to which, the untapped audience for a black hero has been loud for a long time, just like a female led movie like wonder woman. It wasn't rocket science to know that once we got a film that had that kind of lead, with a decent level of actual quality, was going to do well.).
But I CAN look at a trailer and go "wow, this looks like crap" or "this looks like fun." and see how other people are reacting to it, and then make a reasonable guess of "I think this will do well" or "I think this will flop." If you're in a theater and there's crickets to a trailer you know its screwed, but if everyone is laughing or applauding to the trailer, its doing it's job.
I could tell Suicide Squad was going to be terrible based on everything surrounding it's production, but that the trailers were so good I knew that it was going to do well anyway.
Jumanji in particular since you mentioned it made me go "well, I didn't ask for this, but that looks like it might be fun. And the Rock is popular, I think that will do okay. I might go see it myself."
I can also look at a franchise and go "Shrek 3 was really amazingly awful, I'm sure Shrek 4 is going to do way worse as a result." and it did. Studio execs didn't anticipate that for some reason, but I knew 3 was so bad it killed basically all the goodwill the franchise had… because I'd actually watched 3 and wasn't just basing off how successful the other films were. A lot of the time the success of a franchise film is based on the quality of the entry that preceded it. Spiderman 2 was super quality, so SPiderman 3 did really well even though it was bad. Iron Man 3 came on the heels of Avengers so it made a billion dollars when it probably shouldn't have. Etc. There are definitive identifiable trends and patterns to these things, and instinct based on trailers and reactions can make a reasonable guess at how a thing is going to do. I knew the third Star Trek film was going to do badly because the Khan film tainted the whole thing and the advertising on it was stupid.
Get Out, and that obviously Mad Max Fury Road
Nah, those are underdog surprises with no advance warning no one expects. Art is full of those. Good movie hits at the right time, it does well.
or Kong: Skull Island would’nt be nearly as big hits.
Knew Kong wasn't going to do well though. THe posters and advertising were terrible and well… its Kong, not Godzilla. People aren't as crazy about the giant monkey. Especially with the Peter Jackson Kong having already given a Kong movie with modern effects, and the Planet of the Apes series giving good story moneky movies.... Skull Island had to be a lot more than it was and advertised a lot better to work.
I will say I never expected Jurassic World or Fast Furious 7 to be as huge as they were but I also paid zero attention to them. Furious 7 might have been guessable given everything surrounding the lead's death.And that since this hypothetical predictive model calculates that Solo should be a surefire hit,
The model is that reactions to the last two films have been really, really mixed, and that's going to curb excitment. I know I personally don't feel like making the effort of seeing it in the theater, so if thats set in for me it's probably set in for a lot of others.
Might it not instead simply be that people weren’t as susceptible to the marketing and conceit of the movie as Disney assumed? Maybe people thought the trailers were off. That the posters were ugly. That it was too soon for a new movie. That the concept was uninteresting. That the leads didn’t look the part.
Uhm, yeah. That's all part of it. I'm not saying it isn't.
But if Rogue 1 and episode 8 had knocked it out of the park and were more or less universally loved people would go "well the trailer was weak but the last one was SO good I trust these guys, I'll give it a shot." The way the Pixar brand used to be. But both films have been… mixed, and even Force Awakens mostly had "fresh pine scent" on it and was a retread of not super high quality, and that's faded some.
I can also accurately predict, right now, years ahead of time with nothing even filmed yet and no trailers at all that Avatar 2 is not going to do anything anywhere near as good as Avatar 1 did. The 3D Imax gimmick wore itself out, and the first Avatar has left zero impact on the pop culture. People aren't chomping at the bit for a part 2, let alone the 2, 3, 4, and 5 we're going to be getting. It'll still do well, almost certainly in the billionaire club, but nowhere near the first.
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Young Han Solo has less hair than old geezer Han Solo…
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Solo was meh
nothing great, nothing horrid
just meh