Whole Cake Island was a lot of fun! But I'm stoked now for the Reverie.
Chapter 902: End Roll
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Katakuri didn't "stop from falling" after the final blow. He immediately fell forward… and then he got up to fall backwards. Not that this will change your conclusion anyway.
SO.MUCH.AGGRESSIVENESS.FOR.A.MISREAD.OF.CHAPTER.896.
You are the one who misread that chapter.
You could see Katakuri spilling blood before falling a second time.
Also should Brulee having knowledge that Katakuri let Luffy win, would she be crying rivers and bother yelling at her siblings of what Luffy just did it?
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So, was it a big problem that he couldn't surpass easily or was something easily surpassed? Because his despair shows that was something important, and right after that he just disreguarded it easily. The problem isn't why he was despairing, the problem is that he was despairing from it, and then right after that it easily moved past it, and even was him that showed the weakness.
Again, you can't make a cake and eat it too. When it was convenient to make a gap for Luffy to finally hit Katakuri, his something important. When is convenient to show his "honor"(that in fact is the most dishonorable thing that somebody can make) it wasn't.Acting for himself? So being a traitor and harming his family is who he really his?
You can say beatifull words about what is bad writing, trying to show something as honorable that has everything except honor, and show that in a character that is made to be caring and honorable. So basically the intention was right, but it showed the total opposite(unfortunately people are "trained" to see the pattern and understand the intention and take it in instantly. Not mattering if well executed or badly).
Also expanding a character personality is not a good trait for itself. The expanding is not only bad, but badly made and presented. Showing more stuff is only good if is good stuff and shown well.It is different because even though it is not something entirely rational, it doesn't come from a deep insecurity as we thought up to this point.
He taking it very seriously and despairing when he saw it being exposed at the start of the fight makes as much sense as he being able to consciously let go of it. Before it didn't made sense for him to easily surpass the fear because we were led to believe it was something deeply tied with his own self image and that's not the kind of thing one let go just because they decided to voluntarily abandon. But once it is revealed it hails from a conscious decision to protect his family, it is understandable that on the course of a fight that lasted hours (a detail that shouldn't be ignored), he could evolve to a point that he decided it was about time to stop being so selfless and start doing things for himself once in a while.
And when did I talked about honor? I am explicitly talking about him start to act on his own interest instead of erasing himself for the good of those he loves… who are you talking with?
Anyways, I am discussing the changes in the perception of Katakuri as a whole brought by this chapter. I have zero interest in trying to defend the character from bashing - if you think he sucks that's your opinion and I have zero say on your opinion, attacking or defending the likes or dislikes of a person is just waste of time and I am trying to discuss a point I think is interesting not to be dragged into bickering.
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Katakuri didn't "stop from falling" after the final blow.
Fourth panel:
This is the one I was talking about. Not the one just right after the final trade.
What now?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So your explanation is "it doesn't matter" because "i have no arguments left" lol And yes it matters because "falling and falling that way" was intentional.
It doesn't matter because whether it's backward or forward, he still lost.
The point here is, he chose to fall backwards. Yet you interpret it as "OH, HE CHOSE TO FALL BACKWARD AS HIS FASHION OF LOSING THE FIGHT, THAT MUST MEAN HE LOST ON PURPOSE!" even though if he fell forward, that also means he lost and Luffy came out the winner all the same.
How is it so hard for you to understand? Brulee said "You fell backward on purpose, didn't you?", not "You lost on purpose, didn't you?". Charlotte Katakuri lost against Monkey D. Luffy, the only thing he did on purpose was the direction in which he fell to, not anything else and it sure as hell was not losing. It doesn't take a genius to figure out such simple dialogue. Deal with it.
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This post is deleted!
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Katakuri didn't "stop from falling" after the final blow. He immediately fell forward… and then he got up to fall backwards. Not that this will change your conclusion anyway.
Like All Fiction pointed out, you (a lot of people, probably) are mistaking the moment Brulee is talking about. She is not talking about Katakuri falling forwards at 10:38~39, but he almost falling at 10:47, holding his position just long enough to give Luffy his last praise, and then proceeding to fall backwards. It wouldn't make sense for Brulee to say he fell on his back on purpose because of something that happened almost 10 minutes before, she talking about what happened seconds before his last fall.
Honestly, so much has been said about the end of this fight back in 896 that nothing is left to add. At this point, seeing the fight as a victory of Luffy or Katakuri is really a matter of each person's personal take on that. It is not because a person failed to notice a detail or a line, but how each person perceive the fight and what they judge defines the victor.
I personally think Katakuri won the fight because, in my eyes, the fight was over at 10:38~39 (the scene shown in these two pages: 1 and 2) and here we see Katakuri was the last man standing, even if just for a second. Based on my own set of values, the fight was decided the moment they passed out, not at 10:47, almost 10 minutes later, when they recovered enough to stand again and exchange final words. But that's not the way the manga wants us to read this fight.
Brulee and Katakuri are talking about what happened at 10:47 because the manga treats that as the final moment of the fight, and if you read it like that then Luffy did won the fight. If someone perceives it like that and thinks the fight ended at 10:47 when Luffy was the last man standing, I can't say they are wrong even if I disagree that was the moment one should take into account to decide the winner - not only because they are basing this decision on a different set of parameters than the ones I use, but because they are reading the fight as it is supposed to be read since this is clearly the way Luffy, Katakuri, the manga, and therefore Oda, see the end of the fight.
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@All:
Fourth panel:
[image]This is the one I was talking about. Not the one just right after the final trade.
What now?
Now I see which scene you were talking about and it's pretty interesting, I agree. However, I must point out that I had never seen this particular page as showing Katakuri falling forward at first, he was only looking down (since he's 5 meters tall) with no indication of motion aside from the trembling, although Brûlée's comment can recontextualize the drawings to say that Katakuri was about to fall forward again.
Anyway, as .access timeco. has just said, Katakuri's switch from falling forward to falling backwards doesn't really change my overview of the meaning of the fight for both characters. I've never said that Katakuri didn't lose, but that this fight works on two different layers that dialogue with each other. Katakuri lost his will to fight and that matters.
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Now I see which scene you were talking about and it's pretty interesting, I agree. However, I must point out that I had never seen this particular page as showing Katakuri falling forward at first, he was only looking down (since he's 5 meters tall) with no indication of motion aside from the trembling, although Brûlée's comment can recontextualize the drawings to say that Katakuri was about to fall forward again.
Anyway, as .access timeco. has just said, Katakuri's switch from falling forward to falling backwards doesn't really change my overview of the meaning of the fight for both characters. I've never said that Katakuri didn't lose, but that this fight works on two different layers that dialogue with each other. Katakuri lost his will to fight and that matters.
Fair enough.
16 Red Zaku pilots.
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I'm pretty sure most people here don't think Pedro is dead, but I do wonder what him ending up alive would mean. A lot of discussions about his possible return relied on the idea that he would get his missing lifespan back, but all is well in Soul Land right now and so the chances of him gaining more lifespan seem very unlikely, which, though I'm sure this will eventually come back to bite me, actually makes me pretty down for Pedro being dead.
Spoiler:
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The main difference between Pedro's death now and past non-deaths in One Piece is that Pedro's death matters for the story being told in WCI, since it's a direct consequence of the protagonists' audacity of tresspassing Yonkou territory (the "guillotine"), so now we have the grief that justifies the bitterness of the ending. And, of course, this death also probably means character development for Carrot, so it always felt real to me, even if it's possible that he'll show up alive at the end of the day (or at the dawn, I guess).
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@Kaido:
I'm pretty sure most people here don't think Pedro is dead, but I do wonder what him ending up alive would mean. A lot of discussions about his possible return relied on the idea that he would get his missing lifespan back, but all is well in Soul Land right now and so the chances of him gaining more lifespan seem very unlikely, which, though I'm sure this will eventually come back to bite me, actually makes me pretty down for Pedro being dead.
- That never made sense to me since he didn't die like Moscato and Opera did, but through an explosion. Never got how exactly that theory was supposed to pan out.
- And like you said, everything's fine, she didn't fall unconscious, so much for the lifespan theories… In the end, we still don't even know if her being unconscious actually does forcibly release the lifespan she's collected. Feels even less likely now that Nami actually escaped with Zeus, I don't think Oda would take that kind of power-up away from her, meh.
- The scarecrow Homie (Is he even a Homie?) turned out to be a total red herring. Not that it matters since Big Mom never fell unconscious so that we could test out the theory to begin with.
- Pekoms didn't even go Sulong, which would've actually given Pedro a genuine reason to (inexplicably) show up. Seems we'll get a Pedro parallel with him regarding his eye(s) if anything.
- With this latest chapter, we're embarrassingly far, well more than we already are, past the point for Pedro to pull a Pell, revealing that he simply survived the blast. He's been left behind on enemy territory as well.
- And lastly for good measure, the full moon's gone now, so no potential Sulong shenanigans, not that that would've been a convincing solution either considering its drawbacks.
And then all the other reasons given before the arc ended with this chapter. Anyways, not worth stressing about it as far as I'm concerned. Well, I know some (or maybe most) will, but I'm moving on lol
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It's funny that Oda even made clear what memory Pudding took out WITH THE PANELS.
Everything you see on that page is the film strip stripped out of Sanjis head.
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So I presume everyone is working on their Reverie arc bingo cards before the next chapter? Remember to use "Vivi as protag" for the free space.
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Talking about reverie, they're gonna discuss about the world's current problems, right?
What's the possible topics?
They might address teach's attack on the revolutionary as they did discuss about dragon last time as well, right?
What else?
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Talking about reverie, they're gonna discuss about the world's current problems, right?
What's the possible topics?
They might address teach's attack on the revolutionary as they did discuss about dragon last time as well, right?
What else?
The main topics are the failure of the Shichibukai system, the fishmen petition to move to an island on the surface and king Cobra wants to throw some hits on the World Government.
The World Goverment will politely ask them to fuck off and then everybody will come back home crying, of course.
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I think Wapol and Dalton will have some words for eachother, as well.
Other then that, I think that should be all we know thus far.
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Someone from kano has their own thing they want to discuss
Things we could see
Guy who brought up dragon way back then as a threat will reappear
We learn who the goa king was before stelly became king.
Cobra gets assassinated
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Talking about reverie, they're gonna discuss about the world's current problems, right?
What's the possible topics?
"We have gathered here this week to put it to a vote: Who is your favorite Charlotte sibling? Later on we shall discuss what species that bird guy is supposed to be and what's up with all those girls who look like each other there's like 5 of them at this table."
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This got me thinking. For all its flaws, the WCI arc has had a quite interesting cast of antagonists whose relationship as a (perfectible) family articulates rather well. The Brulee / Katakuri flashback this chapter and a number of tiny interactions between siblings have made them compelling characters as a group, similar to what Oda pulled with the Donquixote family in Law's flashback. In comparison, what (admittedly little) we've seen of Kaido and is crew seems …incredibly bland. Me big bad, angry me club you to death lololol and that's it. Now of course Big Mom's first impression was almost comically evil, there's still time to develop them and show other facets of these characters, but with the tone given so far my first impression is that the brutish full-zoan Beast pirates may indeed have a hard time living up to the colorful Charlotte family and their disney-esque wonderland.
Oh, well, I'm banking on the Wano people/Shogun/Samurai side of things to compensate for it. Crossed fingers!
I think we can trust in Oda into creating some interesting antagonists. That is still his forte. Like it has been standard now, the problem will rather be that he will create more that he can handle without making megamultiplots, lots of scene skipping and drowning the strawhats into all this mess. Maybe that is why he let jinbei here, it’s one crewmember less to care about.
I guess i I should get used to it from now but Wano will be so big in term of characters numbers that i fear there will be a lot of painfull moments.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Talking about reverie, they're gonna discuss about the world's current problems, right?
What's the possible topics?
They might address teach's attack on the revolutionary as they did discuss about dragon last time as well, right?
What else?
I suppose they will hear about the big news
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So you the will of D. ( luffy, BB etc)
The will of P.( pell, pagaya, pedro, pekoms, ponds) that can survive anything.
And now the will of S.(uck). Smoothie, Sanji, Snack. Pretending they did something this arc.
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regarding the cake!
is it possible for even 1%, that in the cake, sanji poured the stuff that Ceasar gave to the kids on punk hazard and now BIG MOM is a drug-fiend who will attack anyone, when she needs her fix??? If so, BIG MOM practically is an enemy of her own family/crew from now on…
im sure someone came up with this theory earlier, right???
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regarding the cake!
is it possible for even 1%, that in the cake, sanji poured the stuff that Ceasar gave to the kids on punk hazard and now BIG MOM is a drug-fiend who will attack anyone, when she needs her fix??? If so, BIG MOM practically is an enemy of her own family/crew from now on…
im sure someone came up with this theory earlier, right???
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She cannot be addicted after one dose
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Sanji will never poison a meal except Zoro is the one eating.
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@.access:
It is different because even though it is not something entirely rational, it doesn't come from a deep insecurity as we thought up to this point.
He taking it very seriously and despairing when he saw it being exposed at the start of the fight makes as much sense as he being able to consciously let go of it. Before it didn't made sense for him to easily surpass the fear because we were led to believe it was something deeply tied with his own self image and that's not the kind of thing one let go just because they decided to voluntarily abandon. But once it is revealed it hails from a conscious decision to protect his family, it is understandable that on the course of a fight that lasted hours (a detail that shouldn't be ignored), he could evolve to a point that he decided it was about time to stop being so selfless and start doing things for himself once in a while.
And when did I talked about honor? I am explicitly talking about him start to act on his own interest instead of erasing himself for the good of those he loves… who are you talking with?
Anyways, I am discussing the changes in the perception of Katakuri as a whole brought by this chapter. I have zero interest in trying to defend the character from bashing - if you think he sucks that's your opinion and I have zero say on your opinion, attacking or defending the likes or dislikes of a person is just waste of time and I am trying to discuss a point I think is interesting not to be dragged into bickering.
Protect what is dear to you is not selfless, selfless is doing something/protecting something, in fact sacrifice yourself for something, that is of no value to you. Basically you're only doing it due to a sense of righteousness. An example is what Happened in the beginning of Yu Yu Hakusho when Urameshi died saving a kid he didn't knew from being run over. What mother Therese of calcutta did.
Selflessness is in no way related with anything shown about Katakuri.In fact he is duty bond and honor bond to protect his family, the Big Mom Crew and the Empire. And given that he is the TOP General(given that Streusen position is unknown) he is the one with more responsability, excepting Big Mom.
You didn't talked about Honor, but you're talking about the same thing that was shown to be his personal "honor". When he supposedly acted on his selfinterest, and stopped flambé and hurt himself and accepted Luffy as a worthy enemy, it was trying to show "honor"(Though given the circumstances it shows the total opposite).
About his interests vs loved ones. So you're saying that his interests are to betray and harm his family? Are his interests to be a criminal and a scumbag, that flipped to the side of the enemy, just because he was having a fight?
So is important to take in consideration the time that passed for his sudden change of attitude, but it isn't important to his decisions during the fight?(Horrible ones, the guy is totally an amateur and a bad fighter)
Also it doesn't matter if is seconds, minutes, hours or even days. If he is from a continuous fight since the start of the mental distress until the moment of just showing without care, he basically didn't had time to process the emotions, and so they shouldn't change, or at least not so drastically.I'm saying that the perception of Katakuri doesn't make sense at all. Because they were badly handled. They are nonsensical. Is not that I don't like Katakuri or the decisions that he made. Is the fact that his character doesn't make sense. It seems Oda had some cool scenes about him, and even though they were against one another, at least if used one right after the other, Oda still wanted to place all at the same time and so just forced it. Creating this mess.
You say change of perception, but is just showing one thing one time, and showing other thing another. That is why there is a ton of conversations trying to make sense of Katakuri, when that happens with a character is usually because he is horrible done, because is not the readers that have to make sense of "random" stuff that the author writes about the character, but the author that has to write things with "sense" about the character and in doing so giving the readers a sense about the character.
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@All:
This is the one I was talking about. Not the one just right after the final trade.
What now?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It doesn't matter because whether it's backward or forward, he still lost.
The point here is, he chose to fall backwards. Yet you interpret it as "OH, HE CHOSE TO FALL BACKWARD AS HIS FASHION OF LOSING THE FIGHT, THAT MUST MEAN HE LOST ON PURPOSE!" even though if he fell forward, that also means he lost and Luffy came out the winner all the same.
How is it so hard for you to understand? Brulee said "You fell backward on purpose, didn't you?", not "You lost on purpose, didn't you?". Charlotte Katakuri lost against Monkey D. Luffy, the only thing he did on purpose was the direction in which he fell to, not anything else and it sure as hell was not losing. It doesn't take a genius to figure out such simple dialogue. Deal with it.
"fell backward on purpose" and "lost on purpose" is the same in the eyes of her sister and family falling backwards. Men you are contradicting yourself all the time! Brulee was there! That's why he did it! "The only thing he did on purpose was the direction" and that's one of the points, falling like that, AND FALLING (AS YOU CAN SEE HE MOVED HIM ARMS INTENTIONALLY BEFORE FALLING SO HE CAN FALL BACKWARDS) in front of Luffy after he ANSWERED his question. What's the point of asking Luffy that if it's not to prove himself something? This was intentional and Katakuri did that so Luffy can escape. He just wanted to check what kind of men Luffy was.That's why Brulee asks after that that he is going to be happy to hear that he escaped. Katakuri predicted ALL THAT. That's why he let Luffy go, that's why he refused to continue that fight. That's why it's not a defeat because he choosed to do that, even if he could have won, and to act like that in front of her sister. Just imagine Luffy was a dangerous pirate and wanted to kill Brulee also i'm 100% sure that scene would be different. He was not feeling rage toward Luffy since he took out his scarf but peace even if he was superior in terms of raw power and techniques.
It's a victory for him because he proved to himself he can fight beeing himself with someone and also it's a draw as showed by Oda in all panel "parallelisms". But not a DEFEAT. That's what Oda showed us all the time and that's what Oda wanted: a mirror match. What's the point of waking up after the final blow (when you can see the future) if it's not to change THAT future as you want?
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"fell backward on purpose" and "lost on purpose" is the same in the eyes of her sister and family falling backwards.
That's just something you made up yourself.
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@Kaido:
I'm pretty sure most people here don't think Pedro is dead, but I do wonder what him ending up alive would mean. A lot of discussions about his possible return relied on the idea that he would get his missing lifespan back, but all is well in Soul Land right now and so the chances of him gaining more lifespan seem very unlikely, which, though I'm sure this will eventually come back to bite me, actually makes me pretty down for Pedro being dead.
he will obviously come back with his new crew made of pound, monet and vergo
"fell backward on purpose" and "lost on purpose" is the same in the eyes of her sister and family falling backwards. Men you are contradicting yourself all the time! Brulee was there! That's why he did it! "The only thing he did on purpose was the direction" and that's one of the points, falling like that, AND FALLING (AS YOU CAN SEE HE MOVED HIM ARMS INTENTIONALLY BEFORE FALLING SO HE CAN FALL BACKWARDS) in front of Luffy after he ANSWERED his question. What's the point of asking Luffy that if it's not to prove himself something? This was intentional and Katakuri did that so Luffy can escape. He just wanted to check what kind of men Luffy was.That's why Brulee asks after that that he is going to be happy to hear that he escaped. Katakuri predicted ALL THAT. That's why he let Luffy go, that's why he refused to continue that fight. That's why it's not a defeat because he choosed to do that, even if he could have won, and to act like that in front of her sister. Just imagine Luffy was a dangerous pirate and wanted to kill Brulee also i'm 100% sure that scene would be different. He was not feeling rage toward Luffy since he took out his scarf but peace even if he was superior in terms of raw power and techniques.
It's a victory for him because he proved to himself he can fight beeing himself with someone and also it's a draw as showed by Oda in all panel "parallelisms". But not a DEFEAT. That's what Oda showed us all the time and that's what Oda wanted: a mirror match. What's the point of waking up after the final blow (when you can see the future) if it's not to change THAT future as you want?
don't know fro how much you two have been debating but it's pretty clear that brulee is talking about the fact that katakuri first fell face down and could have kept his mouth covered, but instead choose to use his last bit of strenght to get up one last time and go down with his back on the ground as a way to admit to prove to himself that he doesn't give a fuck about his image anymore.
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"We have gathered here this week to put it to a vote: Who is your favorite Charlotte sibling? Later on we shall discuss what species that bird guy is supposed to be and what's up with all those girls who look like each other there's like 5 of them at this table."
Probably the most relevant points brought so far. Now I'm looking for this arc.
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Katakuri acting on his family behalf was selfless because of the way he did it. He was not doing it in a normal way like everybody else, but at the expense of his own. He was living a lie during all his waking hours (maybe even sleeping, assuming he maybe slept standing) for what could be as long as 40 years. Except for his merienda, when he could be himself, every minute for decades was him pretending to be a person he wasn't because in his mind he had to put up this lie to keep his family safe.
There was no need for him to go that far, the family never asked that of him, but that's how he handled his stuff. At the fight with Luffy he finally found something he was legitimately enjoying probably for the first time in his life since he was a kid, and when he saw his family about to ruin it, the same family he sacrificed everything for, he said "fuck this shit!". Can this be read as betrayal? Yeah, he acted on his own self interest even though it went directly against the safety of his family, the opposite of what he always did. That's what being selfish means, putting your interest ahead of everyone else. Does this one slip turn him into a scumbag? That's for each person's judgement, but even if it does… -
@.access:
Probably the most relevant points brought so far. Now I'm looking for this arc.
Katakuri acting on his family behalf was selfless because of the way he did it. He was not doing it in a normal way like everybody else, but at the expense of his own. He was living a lie during all his waking hours (maybe even sleeping, assuming he maybe slept standing) for what could be as long as 40 years. Except for his merienda, when he could be himself, every minute for decades was him pretending to be a person he wasn't because in his mind he had to put up this lie to keep his family safe.
There was no need for him to go that far, the family never asked that of him, but that's how he handled his stuff. At the fight with Luffy he finally found something he was legitimately enjoying probably for the first time in his life since he was a kid, and when he saw his family about to ruin it, the same family he sacrificed everything for, he said "fuck this shit!". Can this be read as betrayal? Yeah, he acted on his own self interest even though it went directly against the safety of his family, the opposite of what he always did. That's what being selfish means, putting your interest ahead of everyone else. Does this one slip turn him into a scumbag? That's for each person's judgement, but even if it does…Selfless because the way he did it? What are you talking about? Since when selfless has anything to do with the way it is done. It never had and it will never will have. Is in the definition and meaning of the word. It has nothing to do with the way it is done.
Doing something at the expense of yourself, isn't called being selfless, it called Sacrifice yourself.
One of the things people do more, when protecting the ones dear to them is sacrificing themselves. From the simply going everyday to a stressful work, instead of one that provides less, but is more relaxing. To going to war and the probability of dying rising to almost 100%.
Again, being selfless is Sacrifice yourself, doing something at the expense of yourself, for someone/something that is nothing to you. Basically taking your sense of righteousness.You're saying that Katakuri sacrificed himself for his family without them asking, for at seems 40 years, and that he stopped doing it, because of a fight. A fight that happened when he was in the important mission of capture or killing the running, Mother and rest of his family, assassin.
"Can this be read as betrayal?" You know that it can't be read as anything else right? Note that the betrayal has nothing to do with him sacrificing himself in the past and stopping doing that. I'm not talking about that. The betrayal, was the help he did to the enemy, and the interfering he did to the mission and even the direct attack he did to the member of the family and crew members.
It doesn't matter if it was Katakuri or anybody else, what he did his high treason. Just change the players. You take that Aikainu tried to assassinate Ace and later all of Luffy crew: Zoro, Nami, Ussop, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky and Brook. He failed just by little and after that he goes on the run. Luffy and all of the strawhats go after Akainu, ending in a fight between Luffy and Akainu. Due to Ussop Sharpshooting Luffy his able to hit a critical hit to Akainu. What does Luffy do? He knocks out Ussop and hurts himself in a propotionate manner to Akainu damage. Do you understand what is the problem now that the players changed? Or do you still think everything is OK? And than as the fight continues Luffy loses against Akainu and lets him leave and in doing so certainly confronting another Strawhat, what about if he comes across Nami or Chopper? And what if they end up dying(And if he even finds some of the stronger ones and is able to end them?). What about if he then is able to complete what he failed to do and kills Ace? What about if Sakazuki before leaving Luffy Kills Ussop that is knockout, and even kills Luffy.
Is for this things that doing something of the genre during a pursuit, a police one. Can make a cop removed from the force or even in prison. And a Soldier if we're talking of during a war, he can be killed in the spot(Yep, even now, and in almost all countries, USA, Portugal, England, …). (Note: And yep, what Akainu did in the Marineford wasn't criminal, it was well into the rules of engagement, in fact given that he is a Extreme Justice guy, is strange that he talked so much to the soldier about him returning to the battlefield, and didn't just haxed him).
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self·less
ˈselfləs/
adjective- concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own; unselfish.
Anyways, enough posts were done, at this point is just each other just insisting in presenting opposing views in a "discussion" that isn't leading anywhere.
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"fell backward on purpose" and "lost on purpose" is the same in the eyes of her sister and family. Men you are contradicting yourself all the time! Brulee was there! That's why he did it!
No, because if he lost by falling forward, he still suffered his very first loss which is unprecedented.
He lost. He was knocked out, couldn't fight anymore and falling forward. But decided to fall backwards instead as the manner of his loss. The other conclusion besides him falling backwards is forward and that would still be his first unprecedented loss, Luffy would still come out as the winner all the same and Brulee would still react the same as she did.
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Can't you all agree to disagree because at this point it is pretty clear neither side is going to budge.
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@All:
No, because if he lost by falling forward, he still suffered his very first loss which is unprecedented.
He lost. He was knocked out, couldn't fight anymore and falling forward. But decided to fall backwards instead as the manner of his loss. The other conclusion besides him falling backwards is forward and that would still be his first unprecedented loss, Luffy would still come out as the winner all the same and Brulee would still react the same as she did.
Considering this chapter, it is certainly possible this might not been his first loss. We know he never lied down, it could be the same kind of lie.
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Considering this chapter, it is certainly possible this might not been his first loss. We know he never lied down, it could be the same kind of lie.
The point of the story is it's his first loss. Other than that defeats the point of making Luffy's victory great. With the only possible exception of BM no one never defeated Kata.
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So, do we get a chapter next week, then the golden week break, or is it the golden week break, then chapter?
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@S.C.:
So, do we get a chapter next week, then the golden week break, or is it the golden week break, then chapter?
Goldenweek break
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@S.C.:
So, do we get a chapter next week, then the golden week break, or is it the golden week break, then chapter?
Golden week schedule is unpredictable, it can go both way
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Best chapter ever!
Ok, ok, best chapter in a while. Our dawg Sanji finally got a kiss! Top that Zoro! :ninja:
This was supposed to be the year of Sanji, so I am glad the got more than shot at. What hasn't been revealed yet is that Perona was six weeks pregnant at the Sabaody send-off. Now that we should be getting back to the rest of the crew there will be further revelations.
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So I read Mangastream's translation on the Katakuri/Brulee conversation. I don't know how right or wrong the translation is, but it reads better and/or makes more sense than Jaimini's Box's translation.
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Are we sure that the Fishmen and Germa are captured? I initially read the chapter as Big Mom saying "LIFE OR TREAT?" to them, but given the nature of their panels and the musical theme going on, it's hard to tell. I'm pretty sure they'll all get away and I'm 50/50 on whether or not they're standing before Big Mom.
Favorite thing aside from One Piece is movies! Updated favorite films: The Passion of Joan of Arc / Alien / It's a Wonderful Life / Casablanca / One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest / The Apartment / Nights of Cabiria / Dr. Strangelove / All About Eve / Amadeus / Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
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Are we sure that the Fishmen and Germa are captured? I initially read the chapter as Big Mom saying "LIFE OR TREAT?" to them, but given the nature of their panels and the musical theme going on, it's hard to tell. I'm pretty sure they'll all get away and I'm 50/50 on whether or not they're standing before Big Mom.
I am not. The good new is there's a chance Jimbe escapes. The bad new is most likely we wont know soon because this is the last chapter of the arc.
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it was trying to show "honor"
No it wasn't. That scene had nothing to do with honor. It was about Pride. Katakuri had been trying to kill the man for hours then only managed to land a shot with help from his little sister. Of course he'd take it personally.
That is why there is a ton of conversations trying to make sense of Katakuri, when that happens with a character is usually because he is horrible done,
Or for all we know a bunch of people just have poor reading comprehension. Or the translations suck which can lead to confusion. Placing the blame on the character or the author is unfounded imo.
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Loved this chapter. Bittersweet ending for what seemed to be Oda's homage to Disney, but that makes it all the more special. The SHs didn't get to save everyone, but they did save Sanji, they did distract one of the 4 mightiest beings in the opverse long enough to escape via the simple act of cooking a cake, they stole a Road Poneglyph, and earned the uber fanboyism of their second in command.
In exchange, the entire Germa military + the fishman pirates + Jinbe + Pekoms are now put in jeopardy. This is the minimum payment one should be forced to pay when defying one of the strongest beings in the known world, me thinks.
It's surprisingly low key, it cuts things in half, it leaves a sour aftertaste. . .and it's something that was we didn't get from One Piece since Sabaody.
Honestly, I'm very positive about this arc in general, but before this chapter I would've never dreamt of putting it in my top 10 favorite arcs ever. This chapter made me think very hard about it. It might've very well singlehandedly put it up there.
The last page is one of the very best we've ever got. The Katakuri/Brulee interaction is awesome. The visual representation and bittersweet aftertaste of the Pudding scene, the Sanji/Carrot interaction. . .this is seriously one of the best chapters in the entire series. Just like the 900 chapter was. And plenty of others throughout this beautiful arc.
Really convinced, years down the line, people will look back at Tottoland and feel waaaay more positive towards it compared to what we're seeing now (which, to my understanding, is a not very good general consensus, seeing how people have been wishing for its end for like. . .30 chapters now? 35? 40?). Or not. We'll see.
To me, hands down the number 1 post time skip arc by far. And something tells me, Wano will have a massive HARD time measuring up to it.
^Pretty much this.
Years down the line when One Piece is completed the people who are gonna be able to read One Piece in one go are gonna find this arc amazing.
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^Pretty much this.
Years down the line when One Piece is completed the people who are gonna be able to read One Piece in one go are gonna find this arc amazing.
That is pretty bold to say. Maybe it will weaken the fact that jinbe didn’t join since we will know why, but the main weaknesses in particular those concerning Sanji will stay.
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the plotholes and people acting out of character or not using reason don't get solved if you binge-read
can you elaborate on plotholes and people acting out of character, please
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can you elaborate on plotholes and people acting out of character, please
- sanji had no reason to attack luffy and try to burn bridges with himand nami when he could just explain the situation to them and tell them he would took care of the situation (like he did later trying to negotiate for their wellbeing. Instead oda neede some drama so made sanji act like he never saw anyone try to leave the crew ever.
-big mom's plan to deal with the strawhats makes no goddamn sense. They are the only ones that can convince sanji not to marry, yet they allow them to go as far as whole cake island, even giving them a map, instead of just sending the fleet to deal with them at sea and sink them..or just blow up the sunny when it's harbored at cacao island trapping them on the island until the marriage is done.
-While she is trying the dress,pudding tells tamago that she "has to go somewhere else"…but since we now know that pudding is evil and never wanted to meet with the strawhats because it was all a trap,where did she want to go exactly? It was just a swerve trying to trick the reader but makes no goddamn sense when you know that it was a trap all along.
-In a world where people have horns,various shapes and body features,an almost completely normal girl like pudding is bullied because of her third eye and even big mom calls her a monster for no real reason.Also she falls for sanji immediately for a shallow compliment he does..even with the attempt at slaavging this plot point with the last chapter, it still feels incredibly forced
-why a glutton like big mom would wait so much to eat her precious wedding cake when there was not going to be a wedding in the first place? it would have made sense if the cerimony was actually real,but since she was not she was free to eat the cake whenever she wanted.
this are the first that comes to mind..but re-reading the arc i would probably found a couple more..the arc was entertaining at the beginning and at the ending..but the whole middle part is some incredibly bad writing for oda's standards
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the plotholes and people acting out of character or not using reason don't get solved if you binge-read
This arc doesn't have people acting out of character (and since when "people not using reason" is a factor? lol) and way less plotholes than some readers account.
And the above also happens in arcs pre-time skip if people have the good will to notice… and this was never enough to take the joy out of the experience of binge reading One Piece. Unless people got older now, of course, changed their view on consistency in art, but have double standards for OP before and after.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
- sanji had no reason to attack luffy and try to burn bridges with himand nami when he could just explain the situation to them and tell them he would took care of the situation (like he did later trying to negotiate for their wellbeing. Instead oda neede some drama so made sanji act like he never saw anyone try to leave the crew ever.
Sanji can't explain that he's "taking care of a situation" (barely) to a guy that is too stubborn about the most optimal solution for these kind of stuff. If Sanji's "solution" at the time was to marry Pudding not for his will, but only because he had no other alternatives given the threats he was under, Luffy would NEVER accept Sanji's approach to the matter. However, Sanji's intention was also to prevent Luffy from interfering further, so he decided to make a show that served both ways: (a) it showed his conviction to the Vinsmokes that he was serious about obeying them and (b) after beating up Luffy and disrespecting his captain, he shouldn't have the right to come back to the crew, so he was kinda forcing Luffy to not take actions (otherwise Luffy would disrespect Zoro's teachings).
However, Luffy is Luffy and food >>> Zoro, so hunger strike. TAKE THAT, SANJI!
-big mom's plan to deal with the strawhats makes no goddamn sense. They are the only ones that can convince sanji not to marry, yet they allow them to go as far as whole cake island, even giving them a map, instead of just sending the fleet to deal with them at sea and sink them..or just blow up the sunny when it's harbored at cacao island trapping them on the island until the marriage is done.
That was Big Mom's approach to all the Supernovas that invaded her territory. Maybe it's only a game for her own enjoyment since she's so capricious with stuff. Or maybe seducing your foes to a trap at the center of your territory is a ligitimate way to deal with a threat instead of sending ships to fight them at the border of the territory. Of course, it's not like Mama was expecting Luffy to be succesful in his attempts, afterall how much lucky and conveniences (and competence) were necessary for the Strawhats to overcome each step on the way? Plenty! And escaping all the way back to Cocoa Town was almost impossible. So yea, there's reason behind Big Mom's plans.
-While she is trying the dress,pudding tells tamago that she "has to go somewhere else"…but since we now know that pudding is evil and never wanted to meet with the strawhats because it was all a trap,where did she want to go exactly? It was just a swerve trying to trick the reader but makes no goddamn sense when you know that it was a trap all along.
That was indeed narrative trick for the readers, but it is one that can be easily recontextualized to be understood. Pudding could have wanted to go anywhere at that time, it doesn't matter. It's really not a sin, but a fine mislead, especially because that scene was not framed in any exaggerated manner.
-In a world where people have horns,various shapes and body features,an almost completely normal girl like pudding is bullied because of her third eye and even big mom calls her a monster for no real reason.Also she falls for sanji immediately for a shallow compliment he does..even with the attempt at slaavging this plot point with the last chapter, it still feels incredibly forced
That's how bullies do. Bullies pick on the different guy, the one that have something that stands out, or the dude that don't socialize very well. Here in Brazil, there are even cases of bullying "beautiful" girls (according to the subjective standard of beauty from TV, magazines etc) in neighbourhoods where they are different from other girls. So yeah, in a country full of different races and only one girl with a third eye, that's her who stands out. (The only weird thing is not that she was bullied, but that nobody ever said her third eye was beautiful. However, that's fine for me, there's a good story being told.)
Anyway, even if it already makes sense, Oda is not even trying to make a thesis on bullying. One Piece is still mostly a manga that sends social messages through caricatures and simplifications. It reminds me a lot of those old stories that try to teach a lesson through a little exposition of a concept and morality.
Pudding's emotional break out at the wedding is a little abrupt, but for her it's not a shallow compliment. Please, we have to understand her reaction in her context, not based on how I feel when people compliment my beautiful nose since I was a little kid.
-why a glutton like big mom would wait so much to eat her precious wedding cake when there was not going to be a wedding in the first place? it would have made sense if the cerimony was actually real,but since she was not she was free to eat the cake whenever she wanted.
Is this really a plothole? lol.
First, I must point out that there was going to be a wedding, but a bloody one. There were many guests, even some celebrity guests, there was a celebration, a tea party, all a lovable act of socialization that Big Mom loves. Also, she was truly excited to see the guests' reaction to the assassination of Germa, oh, how amazingly surprised they would be with that show. What an event! Above all else, of course, a wedding cake is a cake that you eat at weddings, otherwise it's only a good cake. And I must tell you that wedding cakes have a truly unique feel to them, because they are celebratory, like birthday cakes, not like any other delicious cake.
If we eat wedding cakes on normal days, they are not wedding cakes anymore. The fun is lost. Maybe not for the most logical mind that wants to deconstruct social meaning, but at least this whole situation sheds light on the character of Big Mom. She has superficial fetishes, like wedding cakes on fake weddings, a collection of weird animals that she loves but slaves in books, she cries when the skeleton she'd just slaved dies, but is happy in the following second. She's emotionally childish and loves social gatherings and a good show.
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- sanji had no reason to attack luffy and try to burn bridges with himand nami when he could just explain the situation to them and tell them he would took care of the situation (like he did later trying to negotiate for their wellbeing. Instead oda neede some drama so made sanji act like he never saw anyone try to leave the crew ever.
-big mom's plan to deal with the strawhats makes no goddamn sense. They are the only ones that can convince sanji not to marry, yet they allow them to go as far as whole cake island, even giving them a map, instead of just sending the fleet to deal with them at sea and sink them..or just blow up the sunny when it's harbored at cacao island trapping them on the island until the marriage is done.
-While she is trying the dress,pudding tells tamago that she "has to go somewhere else"…but since we now know that pudding is evil and never wanted to meet with the strawhats because it was all a trap,where did she want to go exactly? It was just a swerve trying to trick the reader but makes no goddamn sense when you know that it was a trap all along.
-In a world where people have horns,various shapes and body features,an almost completely normal girl like pudding is bullied because of her third eye and even big mom calls her a monster for no real reason.Also she falls for sanji immediately for a shallow compliment he does..even with the attempt at slaavging this plot point with the last chapter, it still feels incredibly forced
-why a glutton like big mom would wait so much to eat her precious wedding cake when there was not going to be a wedding in the first place? it would have made sense if the cerimony was actually real,but since she was not she was free to eat the cake whenever she wanted.
this are the first that comes to mind..but re-reading the arc i would probably found a couple more..the arc was entertaining at the beginning and at the ending..but the whole middle part is some incredibly bad writing for oda's standards
Ah.. thank you very much for your time and explanation..
really appreciated it. -
-big mom's plan to deal with the strawhats makes no goddamn sense. They are the only ones that can convince sanji not to marry, yet they allow them to go as far as whole cake island, even giving them a map, instead of just sending the fleet to deal with them at sea and sink them..or just blow up the sunny when it's harbored at cacao island trapping them on the island until the marriage is done.
-why a glutton like big mom would wait so much to eat her precious wedding cake when there was not going to be a wedding in the first place? it would have made sense if the cerimony was actually real,but since she was not she was free to eat the cake whenever she wanted.
I kind of disagree with first point that I quoted, but definitely disagree with the second. Other than that, those examples are legit imo. I'd even add the fact that Luffy not using CoC against their army was rather weird, and also that it wasn't used way earlier during his fight against Katakuri against thicc bubble girl and her gang. The latter could perhaps be explained by that Katakuri wouldn't have given him the chance to, but oh well.
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Sanji can't explain that he's "taking care of a situation" (barely) to a guy that is too stubborn about the most optimal solution for these kind of stuff. If Sanji's "solution" at the time was to marry Pudding not for his will, but only because he had no other alternatives given the threats he was under, Luffy would NEVER accept Sanji's approach to the matter. However, Sanji's intention was also to prevent Luffy from interfering further, so he decided to make a show that served both ways: (a) it showed his conviction to the Vinsmokes that he was serious about obeying them and (b) after beating up Luffy and disrespecting his captain, he shouldn't have the right to come back to the crew, so he was kinda forcing Luffy to not take actions (otherwise Luffy would disrespect Zoro's teachings).
However, Luffy is Luffy and food >>> Zoro, so hunger strike. TAKE THAT, SANJI!
luffy trusts sanji,in fact he trusts each of his nakama.remember what happened when he read sanji's note left on zhou..he was completely relaxed because "sanji said he will come back"
sanji could have kept his facade saying that he was gonnasolve this one himself and luffy would have trusted him..and even if he doesn't, it's still a better approach than to try and beat up your own captain..sanji knows better than everyone else that that's not how luffy works.That was Big Mom's approach to all the Supernovas that invaded her territory. Maybe it's only a game for her own enjoyment since she's so capricious with stuff. Or maybe seducing your foes to a trap at the center of your territory is a ligitimate way to deal with a threat instead of sending ships to fight them at the border of the territory. Of course, it's not like Mama was expecting Luffy to be succesful in his attempts, afterall how much lucky and conveniences (and competence) were necessary for the Strawhats to overcome each step on the way? Plenty! And escaping all the way back to Cocoa Town was almost impossible. So yea, there's reason behind Big Mom's plans.
I fail to see how intercepting a ship at sea and sinking it is less practical than fighting them on land, on your own HQ,where they can, you know, fight with their fists instead of with their ship.
And that's without considering the fact that they were literally the only people that could make the plan fail,and she allows them to go as near as sanji as it's possible without actually making them meet..and for no reason.
an that's without counting the fact that since they knew where they were since cacao island and pekoms got kidnapped by bege, they could have took possession of the ship and luffy would have been stuck on cacao island anyway.
it would make sense if big mom was depicted as a stupid individual,but she is many things, and stupid it's not one of those.That was indeed narrative trick for the readers, but it is one that can be easily recontextualized to be understood. Pudding could have wanted to go anywhere at that time, it doesn't matter. It's really not a sin, but a fine mislead, especially because that scene was not framed in any exaggerated manner.
she is in on the plan for killing germa,the plan includes the marriage and the marriage needs the dress…there's literally no place where she could have wanted to go so much to not try the dress..imagine if she goes away and the marriage can't take place beause she doesn't have a dress because she went in some random place for no particular reason that we know of.
That's how bullies do. Bullies pick on the different guy, the one that have something that stands out, or the dude that don't socialize very well. Here in Brazil, there are even cases of bullying "beautiful" girls (according to the subjective standard of beauty from TV, magazines etc) in neighbourhoods where they are different from other girls. So yeah, in a country full of different races and only one girl with a third eye, that's her who stands out. (The only weird thing is not that she was bullied, but that nobody ever said her third eye was beautiful. However, that's fine for me, there's a good story being told.)
Anyway, even if it already makes sense, Oda is not even trying to make a thesis on bullying. One Piece is still mostly a manga that sends social messages through caricatures and simplifications. It reminds me a lot of those old stories that try to teach a lesson through a little exposition of a concept and morality.it would make sense if the other races were all standardized..but we saw humans with horns,strange shapes and pretty much whatever feature you can imagine..and yet it's that third eye that makes an attractive young lady a monster. And big mom, the woman that is all about diversity and acceptance calls her a monster despite the fact that she probably had sex with a 3 eyes guy exactly because she wanted a daughter of that lineage.
Pudding's emotional break out at the wedding is a little abrupt, but for her it's not a shallow compliment. Please, we have to understand her reaction in her context, not based on how I feel when people compliment my beautiful nose since I was a little kid.
her context is that she thought that sanji was a little naive piece of shit,but he likes her third eye so she loves him now…it's not even gradual,it's not even like he liked the guy before,she was enjoying her time thinking about killing him.
Is this really a plothole? lol.
First, I must point out that there was going to be a wedding, but a bloody one. There were many guests, even some celebrity guests, there was a celebration, a tea party, all a lovable act of socialization that Big Mom loves. Also, she was truly excited to see the guests' reaction to the assassination of Germa, oh, how amazingly surprised they would be with that show. What an event! Above all else, of course, a wedding cake is a cake that you eat at weddings, otherwise it's only a good cake. And I must tell you that wedding cakes have a truly unique feel to them, because they are celebratory, like birthday cakes, not like any other delicious cake.
If we eat wedding cakes on normal days, they are not wedding cakes anymore. The fun is lost. Maybe not for the most logical mind that wants to deconstruct social meaning, but at least this whole situation sheds light on the character of Big Mom. She has superficial fetishes, like wedding cakes on fake weddings, a collection of weird animals that she loves but slaves in books, she cries when the skeleton she'd just slaved dies, but is happy in the following second. She's emotionally childish and loves social gatherings and a good show.
it might not be as important as the other i said before but still doesn't make much sense considering how capricious we know big mom is..yeah there was a tea party but she could have served whatever sweet she wanted, it didn't have to be that specific cake,and yet she waited for days, despite having a big history of going crazy if she doesn't eat what she wants immediately,for really no reason.
