It's the TeamFourStar Thread with DBZ Abridged and Pokemon things

elzhi

Does anyone get Blackbeard vibes from Imperfect Cell? Him being scheming and underhanded while waiting in the shadows. He lost all of his charm once he transformed though.

Also if we're talking about power jumps does Piccolo fusing with Kami and all of a sudden jumping up to higher than SSJ levels make sense, isn't that another case of power levels acting wonky?

I also find it interesting that pre GT and Super, the last time the Pilaf Gang show up was when Piccolo launched them off his ship. I always took that as the turning point when DB got more "serious" and the tone shifted pretty much for good.

Monkey King

@Md-Martin:

I mean, I'd say you could hand wave that given there seems to be a scientific way to explain/rationalize Ki in their universe, given what we've seen with Toriyama's history in Dragon Ball online with Gohan writing a book explaining the basics of Ki control to the world.

It wouldn't be that far off to say that Gero was the first scientist to really be able to understand this and with the research he gathered from observing the main characters over the years, let to him being able to finally create beings using that Ki to their advantage. 16 was full machine and had self sustaining power, but wasn't used. 17 and 18 were modified humans and given the same Ki abilities as 16, but with their regular biology and some enhancements. Then obviously we have Gero himself and 19. Both designed to absorb Ki instead.

So given he had been observing the characters for so long, I can accept him making breakthroughs in the science of Ki and surpassing what he had previously seen in his spying.

Ki is mystical life force. There is no science of ki.
16 and 19 are entirely nonsensical.

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@elzhi:

I also find it interesting that pre GT and Super, the last time the Pilaf Gang show up was when Piccolo launched them off his ship. I always took that as the turning point when DB got more "serious" and the tone shifted pretty much for good.

Yeah the Pilaf gang's ejection is kind of a symbolic moment, for the transition from kooky martial arts, to more Japanese superhero story. Though that process had been trending for awhile.
But the "Toriyama" vibe was retained even with the shift. Which I guess I have a hard time articulating, but it's a certain sort of creative whimsy that is damn near totally absent in the Android/Cell material.
And is something tons of American fans don't really comprehend.

Ruin

I don't remember 16 even using ki, per se
just Rocket Punch and what power source he uses for Hell Flash

Ruin

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RoboBlue

Bojack's coming to town.

Edit: There's a picture of Hatchiyack in the thumbnail, but Bojack was released before Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans so we're almost definitely getting it first.
Not that I'm complaining if we get both this year.

Edit 2: It's actually Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans, the 2010 remake of Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans.

Cyan D. Funk

I still refuse to accept that his name is actually "Kirran".

KageKageKing

Will they really show Bojack before Cell's ending?

Cyan D. Funk

I think it might be Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans.

Wooden_Giraffe

I never actually watched the Bojack movie. Maybe I should do that soonish.

Wooden_Giraffe

Problem solved, it was meh. But plenty of material TFS could turn into gold.

RoboBlue

I asked a mod on their discord who confirmed that it's Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans, the 2010 remake of the original OVA.

Wooden_Giraffe

they just revealed it like that?
it they were so ready to share that information then why not just include it in the announcement?

RoboBlue

@Wooden_Giraffe:

they just revealed it like that?
it they were so ready to share that information then why not just include it in the announcement?

I'm really not sure. Take it with a grain of salt I guess?

maxterdexter

Maybe the fact that the villain was in the thumbnail of the video would be enough.

Maybe both things are a hand wave at the same time for whatever reason and they are doing another thing entirely.

Robby

@Wooden_Giraffe:

they just revealed it like that?
it they were so ready to share that information then why not just include it in the announcement?

So that it can be an actual surprise for people that aren't obsessing and dissecting info and hanging out on their message boards?

Demon Rin

I immediately assumed it was gonna be Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans based on the thumbnail and the DBcember theme of ranking the videogames.

Remember folks, the original version is not a movie and it's not an "OVA" in the traditional sense. It's a video game VHS strategy guide they released that just happened to have animation to go along with it. Any cuts of it you've seen without the parts that tell you how to play the game had them edited out.

The new one is…. like, a video game extra? It never got a home video release anywhere. You can ONLY get it as part of the video game I believe.

So this movie makes the most sense to Abridge. the new one is probably better for it too since it's made to be a complete story in and of itself rather than having cutaways to video game strategy stuff.

Also, their typical "Do the movies at roughly the same time they came out with the series" plan doesn't count for this because A: It's not a movie, and B: they've had a history of doing this for the more modern things. Episode of Burdock for example.

Ruin

this'll be a lot of people's first time seeing Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans too
should be fun

Count Mario

What if the Universe 6 Namekians "fuse" in the same way that Piccolo "fused" with Kami and Nail?

KageKageKing

^I guess you posted on the wrong ~~neighborhood~~ thread.

ARTEMlS

This or he's really wishing for DBS Abridged - which I totally support.

Ubiq

@ARTEMlS:

This or he's really wishing for DBS Abridged - which I totally support.

I kinda just want DBS Abridged just to be a story made up and narrated by Perfect Cell, which is why almost everybody in it is a complete idiot.

RoboBlue

I'd want Dragonball Super Kai with each arc edited down to about four minutes.

Ruin

@RoboBlue:

I'd want Dragonball Super Kai with each arc edited down to about four minutes.

you could probably condense the Battle of Gods and Freeza Resurrection arcs into movies
wait a minute…

Cyan D. Funk

Full abridging of the Arale and Baseball episodes.

Ruin

@Cyan:

Full abridging of the Arale and Baseball episodes.

Baseball episode should just be played completely seriously with regular sports commentary

vookis

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Long John Silvers Rayleigh

@Cyan:

Imperfect Cell had this perfect creepy horror movie vibe, and it worked really well at first.

Then he absorbs 17, gains the single worst design Toriyama ever produced, and lost all his legit creepiness and replaced it with really nonexistent motivation. People only remember Perfect Cell fondly because Dameon Clarke and Norio Wakamoto absolutely killed the role while also giving the appearance that Perfect Cell had more of a character than he did.

You skipped semi perfect cell

Monkey King

@Long:

You skipped semi perfect cell

"Then he absorbs 17, gains the single worst design Toriyama ever produced"

Long John Silvers Rayleigh

@Monkey:

"Then he absorbs 17, gains the single worst design Toriyama ever produced"

I figured he was going into discussion about perfect cell, it kind of blended as I read it

elzhi

@Cyan:

Imperfect Cell had this perfect creepy horror movie vibe, and it worked really well at first.

Then he absorbs 17, gains the single worst design Toriyama ever produced, and lost all his legit creepiness and replaced it with really nonexistent motivation. People only remember Perfect Cell fondly because Dameon Clarke and Norio Wakamoto absolutely killed the role while also giving the appearance that Perfect Cell had more of a character than he did.

Most of Super's designs are far worse like Jiren, Botamo, Magetta, Champa (just a fat Beerus). I could go on, it seems like people love Perfect Cell for the same reason the current fandom loves Black cause of Nozawa's performance. The entire concept of Black is even worse than Cell.

Whoops, just checked the date. This is a while ago, my bad.

Robby

@elzhi:

Most of Super's designs are far worse like Jiren, Botamo, Magetta, Champa (just a fat Beerus). I could go on, it seems like people love Perfect Cell for the same reason the current fandom loves Black cause of Nozawa's performance. The entire concept of Black is even worse than Cell.

Whoops, just checked the date. This is a while ago, my bad.

Middle form Semi-Cell is the hideous design, the worst Toriyama ever did.

Perfect Cell was fine visually, if boring as an actual character.

As far as Super's designs, (and plots for that matter) Toriyama has had almost nothing to do with them. He designed Beerus, Whis, Saiyan God form,Goku and Vegeta's current outfits, Gold Frieza, (the stuff from the movies basically)Trunk's new design and about 6 of the other gods of destruction.

Nothing else has been advertised as his creations and given the style and lack of creative energy I can easily believe those are entirely anime staff designs. Jiren, Hit, Champa, angels, etc. are probably entirely anime staff and not Toriyama at all. I don't know if he even did the new instinct mode "design"… though that's really just some eyes so whatever.

(And the concept of Black was fine. It was the execution that eventually sucked.)

Brainyz

@Robby:

As far as Super's designs, (and plots for that matter) Toriyama has had almost nothing to do with them. He designed Beerus, Whis, Saiyan God form,Goku and Vegeta's current outfits, Gold Frieza, (the stuff from the movies basically)Trunk's new design and about 6 of the other gods of destruction.

Nothing else has been advertised as his creations and given the style and lack of creative energy I can easily believe those are entirely anime staff designs. Jiren, Hit, Champa, angels, etc. are probably entirely anime staff and not Toriyama at all. I don't know if he even did the new instinct mode "design"… though that's really just some eyes so whatever.

(And the concept of Black was fine. It was the execution that eventually sucked.)

Actually, many of the designs you see in Super are Toriyama's.
I don't know why they don't look like Toriyama's to you, maybe it's due to his style changing over the years.
But as far as I know, Original universe 6 fighters, Black & Zamasu, Caulifla, Jiren, and some of the gods of distuction + some of the angels, are all done by Toriyama.

!

Baldulf

@Robby:

Perfect Cell was fine visually, if boring as an actual character.

I think he was good for a DB villain, specially if you think that his personality was an amalgalm of the Z fighters and some villains. He had the arrogance of Vegeta, the superiority complex of Freezer and was a battle junkie like Goku (and also a bit of a simpleton). He didnt had a goal or a big plan, he only wanted to prove himself in battle and thus never looked at the good guys as obstacles in his way but as means to an end.

Monkey King

@Robby:

Middle form Semi-Cell is the hideous design, the worst Toriyama ever did.

I actually for the most part like it. Even the way he was drawing it at the time, he was doing some cool shading stuff..

…..

....well that is except for that dumb fucking FACE. Which is what we're all talking about when we say it sucks. Which it ends up doing, because a cool body doesn't matter with some sort of dumb golliwog duck mouth doof face.

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@Brainyz:

Actually, many of the designs you see in Super are Toriyama's.
I don't know why they don't look like Toriyama's to you, maybe it's due to his style changing over the years.
But as far as I know, Original universe 6 fighters, Black & Zamasu, Caulifla, Jiren, and some of the gods of distuction + some of the angels, are all done by Toriyama.

! http://www.kanzenshuu.com/generalinfo/translations/vjump_2016_march_toriyama_dbs_designs_2.png?x66125
https://imgtc.com/i/fcsFeXD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Z6BgLvR.jpg

The fat winnie the pooh thing looks really Toriyama, the robot too, but the purple guy looks like fanfic nonsense.

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@Baldulf:

I think he was good for a DB villain, specially if you think that his personality was an amalgalm of the Z fighters and some villains.

It wasn't though. Except maybe in the most generic sense. Toriyama I don't think even really intended on that much, and if he did, he didn't explore it at all.

He had the arrogance of Vegeta, the superiority complex of Freezer

These are the same thing, and are pretty universally shared by every major villain in the series from Taopaipai all the way to Super Boo.

and was a battle junkie like Goku

So the least interesting aspect of Goku's personality.

(and also a bit of a simpleton).

lol, no.

He didnt had a goal or a big plan, he only wanted to prove himself in battle and thus never looked at the good guys as obstacles in his way but as means to an end.

And yeah that's actually really boring.

Jabberwok

Ways to improve Cell: add more personality aspects from the Z Fighters. Namely, Gohan's bookishness, a Saiyan appetite, and Krillin's weakness for women. Maybe he reads a book in between fights or while he's absorbing people. Maybe he doesn't just eat people but likes food a lot too. Maybe when he's trying to persuade 18 to join him it's done more in the way of a suitor.

Maybe in that interim period before the Cell Games there's an Arabian Nights-esque chapter/episode where Cell requires that a woman is sent to him to attend him. She's terrified of him and has to bring him food and books, but he's the perfect charming gentleman. Over the course of a day, she starts to believe that he might not be so bad and there will be a place at least for her by his side. Then he kills and eats her, and orders another woman there the next day.

And finally during the Cell Games, someone makes a point to Cell that if he enjoys facets of Earth so much, why is he interested in destroying it? He answers that it's what he was programmed to do. But Androids 16 and 18 overcame their programming, couldn't Cell do that too?

Maybe they're right.
Maybe he's not bound by his programming.
Maybe…he just really loves blowing stuff up.

Boom goes 16's head, up goes SSJ2 Gohan, and we're off to the races again. Cell is still evil for the lulz, but he's suddenly got a lot more nuance to him.

AfroSamurai

Or just create your own headcanon where Perfect Cell is Meruem. Booyaa fixed.

maxterdexter

Gohan and Krillin weren't part of Cell's "parents". It was mentioned that it was Goku, Vegeta, Picollo, Frieza and King Cold.

Jabberwok

@maxterdexter:

Gohan and Krillin weren't part of Cell's "parents". It was mentioned that it was Goku, Vegeta, Picollo, Frieza and King Cold.

No surprise he has no personality then. Re-writing that in my new canon too.

Cyan D. Funk

Goku - love of Gud Fites, fast learning techniques
Vegeta - pride, pride, pride, pride
Piccolo - healing factor, being green
Freezer - absurd durability, being a smug douche
King Cold - ????????????????????????????????????????????????

maxterdexter

He got the dullness from king Cold.

AfroSamurai

@Cyan:

Goku - love of Gud Fites, fast learning techniques
Vegeta - pride, pride, pride, pride
Piccolo - healing factor, being green
Freezer - absurd durability, being a smug douche
King Cold - ????????????????????????????????????????????????

"Regal charisma and underestimating your opponents"

Kaiolino

@Cyan:

Goku - love of Gud Fites, fast learning techniques
Vegeta - pride, pride, pride, pride
Piccolo - healing factor, being green
Freezer - absurd durability, being a smug douche
King Cold - ????????????????????????????????????????????????

Groveling and sore loserism

Baldulf

@Kaiolino:

Groveling and sore loserism

Thats totally Vegeta's DNA at work.

elzhi

You guys hear about the whole S-cells nonsense?

Ubiq

I've never understood why Cell always gets so much flack for being dull while other Dragon Ball villains, particularly Freeza, get a relative pass on it. I guess a lot of it is because of wasted potential but, again, that's true of a lot of characters in Dragon Ball.

@elzhi:

You guys hear about the whole S-cells nonsense?

Speaking of not understanding something, was the ability to turn into a Super Saiyan really something that fans were demanding an explanation for?

elzhi

@Ubiq:

I've never understood why Cell always gets so much flack for being dull while other Dragon Ball villains, particularly Freeza, get a relative pass on it. I guess a lot of it is because of wasted potential but, again, that's true of a lot of characters in Dragon Ball.

Speaking of not understanding something, was the ability to turn into a Super Saiyan really something that fans were demanding an explanation for?

I like Imperfect Cell a lot. He’s probably my favorite villain design wise and I liked how he was a scheming villain who was almost even an underdog and had to outsmart his opponents, especially refreshing after Freeza. I actually don’t hate Perfect Cell, but I do see why a lot of people do, I do feel like he gets the raw end of it by being the villain of arguably the most hated arc in the original series. Honestly, most villains in DB were pretty simple and didn’t have complex motivations. I actually liked Fat Buu because he heartened back to old DB perfectly and had this creepy cartoony lovecraftian feel to him, his childlike demeanor reminds me of Arale just started rampaging cities for fun.

Also, I have to say Jiren has to be the worst antagonist in DB probably. This guy is the definition of an obstacle sapped of all personality and reminds me of the Broly fandom where people just care about because of his power levels.

The whole S-cells shit reminds me of midchlorians in Star Wars.

Monkey King

@Ubiq:

I've never understood why Cell always gets so much flack for being dull while other Dragon Ball villains, particularly Freeza, get a relative pass on it. I guess a lot of it is because of wasted potential but, again, that's true of a lot of characters in Dragon Ball.

Cell is fundamentally absurd as a character, at best he's a little conceptually confusing, meaning we have very little to really go off of. Like …just who he is.
He was born in a tube, and then just follows some sort of instinct to absorb specific flying power teenagers, so that he can transform into more of a strong ...thing, and uh.... that's about all we have.

Freeza doesn't need to be super interesting. He's an evil space emperor. It just works on the basic classic simplicity of it. And most of his panel-time until the fight is more as a patiently quietly waiting super threat that stays off screen. He works as this almost monolithic fear factor throughout Namek.
Most Dragonball villains succeed on that basis, heck most of the series does. Just satisfying simple action sci-fi fantasy martial arts stuff.
Evil mafia army.
Evil assassin.
Evil demon.
Evil space aliens (made interesting by their relation to hero).
Evil space emperor.
Evil ancient magic monster.

Evil.... bug man made by a scientist? Doesn't really have the basic success of the rest.
He needed more to make it work, and doesn't have more at all.

MetaMario

@elzhi:

Also, I have to say Jiren has to be the worst antagonist in DB probably. This guy is the definition of an obstacle sapped of all personality and reminds me of the Broly fandom where people just care about because of his power levels.

The manga gives Jiren a little more depth (with the wish thing?), but he needs something as whole. I'd be down with a "comedically serious" trope but most of his appearances have been just to cross his arms, look menacing, meditate, etc. etc.

And I just know the tournament will most likely end with him against Goku.

elzhi

@MetaMario:

The manga gives Jiren a little more depth (with the wish thing?), but he needs something as whole. I'd be down with a "comedically serious" trope but most of his appearances have been just to cross his arms, look menacing, meditate, etc. etc.

And I just know the tournament will most likely end with him against Goku.

Toppo in the anime was given more characterization than Jiren, lol. Don't read the manga, but I did see that panel where he's given more personality, and is pretty much Superman yeah. Also I personally really dislike his design, it's just a grey alien made buff in spandex. I know that they're going for a simple design, but Freeza (final form) and Boo (pure) all have simple but striking designs, whereas Jiren just seems lazy (as does Super in general). If Omega Shenron looked utterly ridiculous cause of how overdesigned he was with the unnecessary spikes, then Jiren is the complete opposite where he's simple to the point of looking like side character. Even Katopesla has a better design than him. Also don't forget his memorable "Kiero", that's his most noteworthy attribute is saying that.

MetaMario

@elzhi:

Toppo in the anime was given more characterization than Jiren, lol. Don't read the manga, but I did see that panel where he's given more personality, and is pretty much Superman yeah. Also I personally really dislike his design, it's just a grey alien made buff in spandex. I know that they're going for a simple design, but Freeza (final form) and Boo (pure) all have simple but striking designs, whereas Jiren just seems lazy (as does Super in general). If Omega Shenron looked utterly ridiculous cause of how overdesigned he was with the unnecessary spikes, then Jiren is the complete opposite where he's simple to the point of looking like side character. Even Katopesla has a better design than him. Also don't forget his memorable "Kiero", that's his most noteworthy attribute is saying that.

that's just it, it feels like the most basic alien design, like a stereotypical martian. It doesn't pop, exactly.