Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

Monkey King

As a Roshi fan (that is, the 22nd Tournament Roshi + his heroic stand against King Piccolo), bringing him back for the tournament. . .is a mistake. Yes, he's basically been the best thing about the entire tournament, I know that. But it's basically ignoring what the character decided back in the day, to step aside and let the new generation shine. And suddenly, out of nowhere, he's above Ten Shin Han because "he's been secretly training".

It's ok to like one character more than others and favor him/her. . .but there has to be some consistencies, and I'm not even talking about powerlevels (even though the mere though that Roshi could best Ten Shin Han in a fight after all this time is beyond stupid, but wathever), I'm talking about character motivations. Roshi retired and let the next generation take the reins, as simple as that. And he did it happily and proud of how everyone was growing. So yeah, even if he's been the highlight of the arc, at the same time, his appearance represents everything wrong with Super's writing, that is, basically fan service.

Yeesh that does sound dumb. Especially because it was against Tenshinhan when Roshi finally made that choice to step aside. Really shitting on the character.

Kizuchan

There was also the scene in Z after the Goku vs. Vegeta battle where he mentioned he felt helpless being able to do nothing as the young were dying.

Super 105 played it off as Goku and Krillin inspiring him to still fight and break his limits despite his old age (and not in the sense that the new generation shouldn't take over or anything like that, I feel like that wasn't the idea behind it, it's more about keeping strong and the like, you're supposed to respect Roshi for his experience and character-specific talents) and I like it because it shows that their relationship is mutual and Roshi gained something from it, too. (Which was a reference to the Krillin two-parter where he played the mentor role again).

But then, I've never been a fan of the "just give up" mentality that the characters that became less relevant got pushed on. It's such a contradictory principle for a series that is about overcoming yourself.

It was shown even better with Krillin in his two-parter. He faced his fears and decided to fight again (will be even more rewarding if he continues after his loss in the ToP).

maxterdexter

This is launch revenge for being forgotten, she is cursing tien, rewriting him out of reality, soon chaotzu will take over his spot in the canon.

Kaiolino

Roshi really should’ve died in 105 or 107. Doing a bunch of Mafubas in a row AND saving Vegeta right after was especially grating. He also has the most knock-outs after Vegeta, Goku and Freeza. Somehow.

MetaMario

I'm not a fan of the "wow Roshi trained THIS much that he's on par with the rest of us?!" idea. I know it's Dragon Ball, where people have taken great leaps and got powerful in a short span of time, but the last time he was a top-tier fighter was around King Piccolo (some of his greatest moments in that arc).

Still, it's nice to see the man that trained Goku in action, and not just have his appearances be perv gags.

Kizuchan

He's not equal to them. That's the point. He was there because of his techniques and a more measured personality compared to say, Goten and Trunks.

MetaMario

@Kizuchan:

He's not equal to them. That's the point. He was there because of his techniques and a more measured personality compared to say, Goten and Trunks.

That I totally get. I meant that there's only so far you can really take the "secret training" angle.

Kizuchan

Oh. Yeah, the Mafuba abuse bothered me, too.

It's been a thing in Super where the idea behind the scene is the same, but the process is sped up. Characters recover really quickly, characters learn techniques and gain power quickly. I understand why it's done: long periods of training isn't interesting. So they keep the character development, but play loose with timeframes and plotting.

No matter how much I think about it, the timeframe in which this takes place is the weakest part of this arc.

Even knowing Roshi had been seriously training for a year would've worked fine. Just set it to focus on all the cast as they're training for the Tournament Of Power for a year. You could reestablish the rule about being in the Time Chamber because Vegeta broke it and the idea of possibly missing better fighters is a much more acceptable plot oversight.

RoboBlue

@MetaMario:

I'm not a fan of the "wow Roshi trained THIS much that he's on par with the rest of us?!" idea. I know it's Dragon Ball, where people have taken great leaps and got powerful in a short span of time, but the last time he was a top-tier fighter was around King Piccolo (some of his greatest moments in that arc).

Still, it's nice to see the man that trained Goku in action, and not just have his appearances be perv gags.

I can accept Krillin and Tien being smarter than the Saiyans/similarly overpowered aliens and thus able to outplan them/use their own power against them, but Roshi is ridiculously old and he spends his days watching TV.
The man basically lives in a nursing home already.

Kaiolino

The “Goten and Trunks are too unreliable” argument sort of flew out the window when they recruited Freeza.

AfroSamurai

A moment of silence for Buu, I was really looking forward to seeing him in action.

Ruin

Buu being the red herring and not Tien was the most tragic part of the arc

Crossword

RE upcoming spoilers:

! Well, uh, I can definitely say that fusion was definitely not at all the sort of path I ever imagined Caulifla and Kale going down. I guess that explains the pants.

RoboBlue

@Ruin:

Buu being the red herring and not Tien was the most tragic part of the arc

It really should've been Yamcha.

Kizuchan

@Kaiolino:

The “Goten and Trunks are too unreliable” argument sort of flew out the window when they recruited Freeza.

Can't argue with that. Freeza is a very entertaining wildcard, though. I mean Gotenks probably could be entertaining, but at least Freeza has been handled as perfectly as you possibly can.

I also can't help but feel there is something planned for Buu. Sometimes people act like this is the last arc of the series and that after this nobody has a chance to shine anymore. I mean, it's entirely possible everything is nullified, but there is plenty of room for the story to keep giving all the characters something to do.

Maybe we'll eventually get that Launch episode or more Yamcha. Maybe they'll finally do something with Goten's and Trunks's character or give something to Buu.

.access timeco.

We saw Buu in action in his fight against Basil. And it was way better than the action the actual team members got so far in the tournament…

Kizuchan

Yeah, that was a pretty good fight. Considering he got a new form, something might be done with him at some point or another.

One thing I miss from the tournament is the more structured fights. There have been episodes that do that and there are some great moments, but some episodes are pretty scattered.

Md-Martin

I don't think it was ever "Goten and Trunks are unreliable" in that kind of sense. I think it meant that they wouldn't be reliable to consider how the tournament works and keep it in mind with fighting. Goku, Vegeta, 17, 18, and Freeza all went to do their own thing as soon as the tournament started. The real problem when you consider how the two boys fight, is that they would be going all out when someone strong enough came along.

Look at how reserved Vegeta and Goku have been with their transformations. Aside from Goku playing teacher, he's been using either SS(which is mastered and he can stay in with no strain), SSG(which we know uses less stamina than SSB), and SSB for brief periods while fighting. And usually, he'll exit the forms as soon as he doesn't need it.

Goten and Trunks would be using SS from the get-go most likely. As far as we know, they've never perfected it like Goku and Gohan, so it likely drains their Ki pretty decently still. As soon as somebody stronger than the boys came along, they'd jump right to fusion.

Then with Gotenks he'd either be playing around with his opponents too long, causing them to run out of time and defuse, making them easy targets. Or, they'd get serious and go SS3, which would only leave 5 minutes for them to fight before being defused.

Freeza may be untrustworthy, but Goku knew he'd been beaten by his carelessness with a transformation that drained him too quickly, and would be unlikely to make the same mistake. Plus he's got the power on his side.

Likewise, while Roshi is much weaker, he showed in multiple points in the tournament that he was conserving power and observing fighters to decide who to fight instead of just trying to hit other people until they fell out of the ring(which is likely what Goten and Trunks would have done).

Kizuchan

It's a choice between very inexperienced, but morally good fighters and a morally questionable, but still intelligent fighter. It makes sense in a way (especially since Goku and Vegeta handled Freeza fairly easily in a sense), but you can't help but wonder if it would've worked out better considering the possible consequences.

We all know it's a marketing stunt, but it's in the gray area of "maybe they should've" taken Yamcha/Goten/Trunks/any other fighter from some other planet/the afterlife.

If it weren't executed so well so far, I would have far more problems with it.

ralf21

Well, i suppose they all expect him to try to backstab them by the end to be the last one standing, so he is reliable in the way than you can predict his actions to an extent. Are they underestimating the mess he could create and taking their ability to thwart him for granted ? maybe.

Cyan D. Funk

!

ARTEMlS

Considering how Zeno and the Grand Priest just shit on everything else, it's not farfetched that Dr. Gero just used their shit to create Pink Gold Cell.

! They really wasted an oppurtunity by not naming Frieza's new form 'Pink Gold'.

Ruin

Cell Dorado is a damn good pun

Crossword

! "Kefla" or whatever she's called was the one in the opening behind Jiren all along, not Kale. Those madmen actually did it.

Kaiolino

[hide]Predict in which episode Vegetto Blue will job to full power Jiren.[/hide]

Kizuchan

Ep 113:

I actually have zero problems with this episode. The pacing kept up, we learned Caulifla's and Kale's weaknesses (that they have room to grow), Goku got his limits firmly established for now and it looked solid.

I'm more worried about the Potara in the preview and how that's going to be handled, but what Crossword pointed out is a pretty brilliant little thing. Many wondered who that character was.

Sano

I really enjoyed the new episode of Dragon Ball Super. I thought the entire Goku vs. Caulifla battle was fun.

! I didn't expect the fusion of Kale and Caulifla was that person with Jiren and the Pride Troopers in the opening. Since I thought it was Kale.

MetaMario

! Whoa, they're gonna fuse(?) next episode

Louis-1988

Kalefla lookin boss.

Action was great, but the pacing kind of sucked. No one eliminated this week and only 1 minute has passed…

Hopefully Controlled Legendary/Berserker Super Saiyan 3 Kalefla can coax Jiren into waking up. Would love to see that fight. This fusion should make them more powerful than just about every fighter left on the fighting stage apart from Jiren and UI Goku.

AfroSamurai

What… where are they even getting the potara? Did someone hide it up their butt to evade detection? No way it doesn't count as a weapon, Potara's are OP as hell!

Maybe Zeno will just let it slide because it's kakkoii, but come on, somebody please remind the writers that you can't set up rules to break them later, it totally ruins the suspension of disbelief...

GetsugaZoro

I enjoyed the episode, but it felt super short, when it ended I was legitimately surprised thinking it was like half episode in only. I hope the pace isn't as bad next week.

Ubiq

! I hope this kicks off a fusion arm's race. The remaining robots, the Namekians, and then Universe 7 fusion dances.

Kizuchan

Here's what bothers me specifically:

It's not baseless that Zeno would be okay with the Potara. The characters have gone against the rules before, but it's all tied to technicalities.

The sunglasses protect against the Solar Flare, but they existed passively. The Mafuba was actually performed by Roshi, the pot was just a small part of it and the Spirit Bomb and Super Ribrianne are Goku's and Ribrianne's techniques, respectively. Goku was technically defeated by his own technique. The Potara are directly linked to the fusion.

! We know from spoilers that this was something Champa came up with. It's not out of character for Champa - he bent the rules multiple times during the U6 arc, this is just something that really does risk his universe considering how obvious of a rule-breaker it is.

I mean, in a way, it makes more sense than the finger fusion because the Kaioshins are involved here, and the finger fusion would be completely unrelated to any of the plot elements except U6 being like U7. It makes more sense that the Kaioshin shimed in and suggested it prior to the tournament.

I'm hoping it's like Ubiq puts it and this unleashes complete insanity. Add to that, I hope it's even more limited because Caulifla and Kale can't control their power as well.

Halfmetal-lich

Great episode, and the next seems like to be just as good.

ralf21

I'm really enjoying most of the battles in this arc, since Goku's recruiting spree, they really give off a good vibe.

As for the the fusion, honestly with the king of all in the picture, just tell him it'll be amazing and he'll allow anything, this whole thing is to entertain him, the rules are only there to ensure that. I don't think it's a stretch for us to accept it.

.access timeco.

Man, this episode was good! I was excited through the whole thing.

Of course, to properly enjoy it you have to overlook DBS usual flaws, like the complete absence of action outside from the characters that are being focused. But before leaving the topic of "other people", I wonder what the Androids are doing… when was the last time we saw them? Also, with 7 fighters left at this point, I think it's time for U7 to start getting some downs... but since Gohan is the only one left that I don't mind dropping off, I should be careful with what I wish.

Ok, back to the episode. Caulifla is the daughter Goku never had, huh!? And I particularly love how fulfilled he seems to be guiding her, something he didn't get from his sons, when I think of Vegeta and the fact the possibility of Bra being a girl was met with reactions of her not being a fighter (+the discussion about Pan being trained to be one).
I don't get how Goku manages to refill his stamina while wasting it fighting, but anyways the whole fight was fun to watch. And I was enjoying every second...

... and then Kale spoke. I was already rolling my eyes and thinking "uuurgh, can we get rid of her already? Here she comes to steal the spotlight with more moe and another tantrum for the 34234th time." Since the hype was broken, I took the chance to go wash the dishes of the breakfast.

When I got back, though, instead of that, I saw Goku and Caulifla inviting Kale to take part of the fight. And that was so heart-warming! I honestly think it was one my favorite moments of DBS so far (sure I skipped 3 whole arcs, but whatever). I went "aaawn" and instantly regretted hating Kale… having her taking part of the fight willingly and feeling confident on herself actually made the episode even better.

So, yeah, great episode. It seems DBS and me are getting tuned at last since I am finally starting to feel the feels they want me to feel.

I just wish they would stop reminding us of how much time has passed, because when you think almost the whole episode took place in one minute... it's just ridiculous.

AfroSamurai

I actually really enjoyed this episode too. Brought me back to Majin Vegeta vs SSJ2Goku back in the Buu arc.

Hell, the fight coreography wasn't even that bad! And by that I mean… omg they actually had fight coreography!

SSJ3's cameo was cool, even if it was literally just a cameo. Such a redundant form haha. I wanna see Caulifla go 3 though, imagine all that hair. Kefla will probably be able to go 3, what with fusions supposedly making it easier to get to new forms (looking at you gotenks).

Excited for this series for once, lets hope it keeps this up :D

Cyclone_Baroness

! I'm a bit confused by the promo for next week. It looked like they used the fusion earrings. Do those not count as against the rules?

This episode was alright. I don't really care about any of the Saiyans and them learning trasnsformations and what not. So it was fairly uninteresting to me, the fighting itself was pretty cool.

I don't get how you're supposed to be trying to regain stamina while fighting lol. Feels more like videogame mechanics to me.

MetaMario

! My guess, Zeno goes "sugeeiiiiiii" like usual and overturns whatever complaints the GoDs or the Grand Priest would have
! as of WHERE they would get the potara, uhhhh….they loot someone? They fall off a Kaioshin?????

RoboBlue

I thought the episode was alright, but once again there was too much commentary from the sidelines.

! If the show writers and the gods running the tournament don't give a shit about the rules, what was the point of having all these rules in the first place?

Thatanas

@RoboBlue:

I thought the episode was alright, but once again there was too much commentary from the sidelines.

! If the show writers and the gods running the tournament don't give a shit about the rules, what was the point of having all these rules in the first place?

! To prevent shit from getting out of hand. Can't have everybody throwing in Senzu's, Potara's, jetpacks and who knows what into the ring constantly. Zen-chans might give exceptions, but you know. Not everything goes.

LordPerucho

Items are allowed unless those are weapons or healing items

Roshi bottles, Papparonis staff comes to mind..

Cyclone_Baroness

I wonder if U7 brought some too then.

But it seems like a gamble cause if a fused fighter gets rung out you lose two people at once.

Cyan D. Funk

Zeno will probably permit Potara when it's explained to him and he goes "OH COOL" because Zeno is every 10 year-old watching Toonami circa 2003.

Ubiq

@Cyclone_Baroness:

I wonder if U7 brought some too then.

But it seems like a gamble cause if a fused fighter gets rung out you lose two people at once.

Which raises the question of what happens even if they stay in until the end, would they count as one person or two?

.access timeco.

Zenos be like "can you stop whining and enjoy the tournament for what it is?"

Cyan D. Funk

When the tournament ends, Zeno's going to argues with people about it on Kanzenshuu and get in an edit war on the Dragon Ball wiki.

No swords style best style

Man, that was really enjoyable. They actually put some decent effort into the fights and that they realized that Goku going SSJ3 for an actual fight would be absolutely ridiculous with how tired he is gets super a few dozen constancy points from me (but it's still somewhere in the negative 300s). Califula was fun to watch and Kale's character development was good as well. Has the hatedom for them died down at all? I haven't seen any DBS discussion on other sites recently.

Kaiolino

Zeno: You see, Caulifla is essentially a metaphorical whore because she only use men for power and

Blissed

@Kaiolino:

Zeno: You see, Caulifla is essentially a metaphorical whore because she only use men for power and

Wait, huh lol?

.