People are overthinking the flashback… IF her memories were changed why the fuck are we seeing carmel talk to WG? that isnt even a memory of big moms
Chapter 867: Happy Birthday
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I posted a theory years ago about how Black Beard had to cry in order to take Whitebeards Devil Fruit something about how the fruit power leaves the dead user and travels through water blah lah blah and that was the reason he wanted to be covered by a sheet so as to not only conceal the technique of stealing a DF but also because he didn't want to be seen crying.
BB possibly swallowed a watermelon whole or had some cherries in his pocket or something… anyways it made my eyes pop when I realized here we have a case of a devil fruit possibly being transferred and Oda has her crying during the process. Just thought I'd share.
Also LinLin could have ate a fruit on the island at a later time there is no proof that she got her DF power at that exact moment. Especially believable if that was an uninhabited island back then. -
This flashback makes Big Mom a more intricate character but I hardly think it makes her a character heading towards a redemption arc. You're talking about someone who's gluttony for sweets is so great that she literally kills and destroys places just to acquire them. No, the point of that flashback was to give us backstory on Big Mom and to show how messed up her eating frenzies are as well as how dangerous she is. Agreed on the Sabo thing though this is probably even more cut and dry than that case.
And that's certainly a terrible crime that should stop. But many characters in this series, including allies like Whitebeard, Law, and Shanks, have questionable morals. This flashback highlights how her current mentality is a product of being treated like a spoiled kid, there being some form of empathy in her, and how her illness is out of control and needs to be cured somehow. The chapter literally ends with her crying over Mother Carmel's disappearance. Oda always writes his villains in an apathetic, irredeemable fashion. Big Mom is a total mixed bag that breaks against that formula (like having a dream as innocent as wanting to sit eye-to-eye with her family or having a country that has racial harmony), and likely for a reason. Like not getting unreasonably defeated this arc because she's not going to still hate Luffy by the end of it.
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@Count:
All this flashback illustrates is that Big Mom is a tragic figure to feel sympathy for. If Oda wanted us to view Linlin as a monster who deserves a comeuppance, Oda should have committed like he did with Doffy killing/decapitating his father in front of his brother by having Linlin knowingly eat those kids without remorse. But that's not what happened. Carmel being a bad person only emphasizes sympathy towards Linlin's situation of her role model being a complete fraud, it doesn't lessen it.
seems the way to go with, so long it ends in 'neutral terms', otherwise that would be 2 yonkos backing up Luffy, too much.
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seems the way to go with, so long it ends in 'neutral terms', otherwise that would be 2 yonkos backing up Luffy, too much.
I hope it ends on "neutral" terms too. A full-blown alliance would feel way too biased towards Luffy.
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If Luffy defeats Big Mom doesn't that make him a Yonko?
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I don't think a Yonko position is automatically granted when they are defeated by another pirate. Especially if they got defeated by an alliance. It may also be determined based on their established territory and influence.
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If Luffy defeats Big Mom doesn't that make him a Yonko?
well, it gives him the amount of Cavendishes required to be "yonko-level", but I think he still has to consummate such position by taking over and maintaining her territories.
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Hmmmmmmm … I don't know... look at Black Beard ... I feel like Luffy has more accomplishments under his belt and more of a fleet. So if he defeats a Yonkou he should be atleasta strong candidate for the "title".
Especially if the poison RPG's fail hardcore (which they will) and Luffy still pulls off a defeat, he will probably have the backing of Germa at that point and it was mostly his crew that will pull off the defeat singlehandedly. Not to mention Big Bird is there to tell the world.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
well, it gives him the amount of Cavendishes required to be "yonko-level", but I think he still has to consummate such position by taking over and maintaining her territories.
He already took FI which was probably one of her biggest territories.
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Hmmmmmmm … I don't know... look at Black Beard ... I feel like Luffy has more accomplishments under his belt and more of a fleet. So if he defeats a Yonkou he should be atleasta strong candidate for the "title".
Especially if the poison RPG's fail hardcore (which they will) and Luffy still pulls off a defeat, he will probably have the backing of Germa at that point and it was mostly his crew that will pull off the defeat singlehandedly. Not to mention Big Bird is there to tell the world.Teach has more allies? subordinates, it was confirmed by Robin, we just haven't see any of them yet.
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Hmmmmmmm … I don't know... look at Black Beard ... I feel like Luffy has more accomplishments under his belt and more of a fleet. So if he defeats a Yonkou he should be atleasta strong candidate for the "title".
Especially if the poison RPG's fail hardcore (which they will) and Luffy still pulls off a defeat, he will probably have the backing of Germa at that point and it was mostly his crew that will pull off the defeat singlehandedly. Not to mention Big Bird is there to tell the world.Teach has at least ten ships under him and now calls himself a Commodore because he's a leading a fleet. Not to mention a former Admiral ally. We just haven't seen the minions of his captains yet. He also conquered all of Whitebeard's territory, hid on Whitebeard's ship for decades, defeated Ace, became a Warlord, betrayed the World Government, broke into Impel Down to recruit some of the worst criminals in history, stole the most powerful Parmecia Devil Fruit by dealing the final blow on Whitebeard, and got away with everything. He has a LOT of feats. So does Luffy, but the best he has is defeating three Warlords and breaking into Enies Lobby.
A strong candidate is a given.
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In this case neutral and ally end up being the same. Luffy and crew suffer no repercussions with dealing with an emperor and Big Mom will not interfere and let Luffy go. Which means that out of the 5 emperors only two are antagonists and if we want to be technical, only one. Because Blackbeard is going to go beyond that.
The escape sounds more exciting because there are ways to ensure Mama cannot act against the threats against Baratie and others. Like taking down more of Big Mom's crew, destroying ships as they escape, Germa protecting Luffy's allies to show gratitude for being saved, the difficulty of attacking Fishman Island if they prepare and attack Big Mom's fleet underwater, Big Mom taking down some of her own forces…and probably other ways.
There is a lot of merit to be had for escaping an emperor's territory, not to mention Big Mom's tea party where "even the devil comes".
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I'd take Luffy's allies and team vs. anyone especially if you guys consider Shanks to back Luffy. He's got so many friends and allies at this point when you really think about it he has friends/allies in the marines, and in the revolutionaries, all o Skypiea, the weather wizards, now possibly the Germa, he has the Giants leaning towards being on his side, the dwarves under his belt, all his allies from Dressrosa… it's difficult to view Luffy as an underdog at this point especially if he's about to take down a Yonko with half of his main crew regardless of the shitty thrown together last second alliance with Bege.
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@K.:
In this case neutral and ally end up being the same. Luffy and crew suffer no repercussions with dealing with an emperor and Big Mom will not interfere and let Luffy go. Which means that out of the 5 emperors only two are antagonists and if we want to be technical, only one. Because Blackbeard is going to go beyond that.
The escape sounds more exciting because there are ways to ensure Mama cannot act against the threats against Baratie and others. Like taking down more of Big Mom's crew, destroying ships as they escape, Germa protecting Luffy's allies to show gratitude for being saved, the difficulty of attacking Fishman Island if they prepare and attack Big Mom's fleet underwater, Big Mom taking down some of her own forces…and probably other ways.
There is a lot of merit to be had for escaping an emperor's territory, not to mention Big Mom's tea party where "even the devil comes".
I don't have any problem with that ratio if Luffy only defeated three Warlords and allied with mostly everybody else. If anything, Luffy defeating more than two feels biased in a world as expansive as One Piece with so many factions at play.
The issue with an escape at this stage of the arc is that there are too many plotlines that we need a resolution for. And leaving them all for Elbaf would not be suitable because they have the most impact they can have in an arc as suspenseful as this one, especially before Wano Country. Escaping a territory is exciting and I'm fine with it happening AFTER the wedding is resolved in a fashion like the end of Post-Enies Lobby and Dressrosa. But the Straw Hats getting away from this arc without repercussions without having to fight Big Mom is only a testament to both how strong Big Mom is and how capable the Straw Hats are in capabilities beyond brute strength. Which helps make Kaido even more intimidating when the war in Wano Country ensues.
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@Count:
I don't have any problem with that ratio if Luffy only defeated three Warlords and allied with mostly everybody else. If anything, Luffy defeating more than two feels biased in a world as expansive as One Piece with so many factions at play.
The issue with an escape at this stage of the arc is that there are too many plotlines that we need a resolution for. And leaving them all for Elbaf would not be suitable because they have the most impact they can have in an arc as suspenseful as this one, especially before Wano Country. Escaping a territory is exciting and I'm fine with it happening AFTER the wedding is resolved in a fashion like the end of Post-Enies Lobby and Dressrosa. But the Straw Hats getting away from this arc without repercussions without having to fight Big Mom is only a testament to both how strong Big Mom is and how capable the Straw Hats are in capabilities beyond brute strength. Which helps make Kaido even more intimidating when the war in Wano Country ensues.
But in this case Luffy would just defeat 1 emperor. Given that Blackbeard will be more of a battle of kings. The only reason I am hesitant is because of how we are supposed to take Linlin as pure, which in itself is already a hard pill to swallow. The same could be said that if they escape it is a testament to Big Mom's strength. Anyways, either way, my idea of a escape had also included Sanji sabotaging Big Mom operations while he waited for Luffy to come. If Jimbe can show enough determination to say life, I had hoped Sanji did the same, be broken either way and regaining his determination in the same way. However, his suicidal tendencies were stronger than that. If Urouge can be chased off, why can't the Strawhats? Why is it that Big Mom making her damn best to chase and kill them is less of a testament than her telling them they can go. What position of authority will she even have after we have seen Luffy and the alliance challenge evey aspect of Big Mom's rule.
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Shanks is never going to back Luffy up in a battle. That would be an insult to the promise they made 12 years ago. If they ever do fight together, it will be when Luffy establishes himself as Shanks' equal.
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Neutral outcome:
Linlin - you can go
Luffy - no, i am leaving
Linlin - that is what I just said
Luffy - i don't need your permission…woaaa cake!Actually jokes aside, make this confrontation end neutrally, and then have the bomb explode on Mama's face, and have the crew escape :ninja:
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@K.:
But in this case Luffy would just defeat 1 emperor. Given that Blackbeard will be more of a battle of kings. The only reason I am hesitant is because of how we are supposed to take Linlin as pure, which in itself is already a hard pill to swallow. The same could be said that if they escape it is a testament to Big Mom's strength. Anyways, either way, my idea of a escape had also included Sanji sabotaging Big Mom operations while he waited for Luffy to come. If Jimbe can show enough determination to say life, I had hoped Sanji did the same, be broken either way and regaining his determination in the same way. However, his suicidal tendencies were stronger than that. If Urouge can be chased off, why can't the Strawhats? Why is it that Big Mom making her damn best to chase and kill them is less of a testament than her telling them they can go. What position of authority will she even have after we have seen Luffy and the alliance challenge evey aspect of Big Mom's rule.
Considering how all of the Emperors are roughly on the same level of power compared to how dissonant the range of strength is for the Warlords, yes, one-two Emperors being taken down by Luffy is enough for the story.
Sanji sabotaging Linlin would go completely against his character arc's moral of needing to rely on his friends for help instead of being so recklessly self-sacrificial.
And I'm not saying that Big Mom chasing the Straw Hats out of her territory is less impactful than letting him leave. On their own, I'm fine with either action. But I prefer the latter because it allows the plotlines for this arc to actually be resolved in a deserving satisfactory fashion. A quick rush out of Whole Cake once Big Mom goes makes all of the focus on the conflicts of the Charlotte Family, Lola, the Baratie, and Fishman Island seem wasteful. The former two get pushed off as just being "well, they were a crazy family, who cares about them" after all of the panel time focused on Linlin and Pudding's character dynamics as well as Pekoms and Pound's plights, the Baratie's safety is relegated as a side thought that makes the Straw Hats look irresponsible, especially since saving Zeff should be impossible for them on their own, and we waited YEARS to get a clear resolution to Luffy's declaration of war against Big Mom and Big Mom gaining the Fishman Island bomb. Jimbei joining the crew and leaving the island before assuring his home's safety (although I don't think he knows about the bombs) just wouldn't be right, and having the bombs explode after the Straw Hats leave would be both anticlimactic and reduce the character development that the Charlotte Family is most likely going to get in making a truce with the Straw Hats by having her attack Fishman Island.
An escape can ONLY happen after the wedding gets resolved. It's that simple. Her authority is going to be in being able to corner and overwhelm the Straw Hats at her leisure after the assassination attempt fails (and after her inevitable rampage is quelled), but deciding not to likely for debt, family, and plot twist reasons.
@Kaido:
Shanks is never going to back Luffy up in a battle. That would be an insult to the promise they made 12 years ago. If they ever do fight together, it will be when Luffy establishes himself as Shanks' equal.
And this is why Blackbeard is eventually going to rub Shanks out of the story before the endgame.
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The island in the flash back is part of Totland. I once thought Lin Lin sailed the world and then settled into where she is now with the surrounding islands. I'm guessing she started making everything come to life soon after the incident and built up her base.
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I would be pretty annoyed if the children are not dead. It fits perfectly with Big Mom being basically the incarnation of a folkloric tale. The story of Big monster that was so unaware of his strength and size that he ate his whole family and if you listen close enough you can still heer calling for them today.
Any less is just boring. Everyone involve is in their 70s at least meaning super old by OP standards. The relevance would be a mere "My mom/dad used was a orphan"
@Count:
See, that's the one big thing that's making me feel divided between either possibility. Especially since this flashback covers events Linlin shouldn't know about. But my one notable issue here is that if Pudding did not tamper with Big Mom's memories or will not somehow help Big Mom unlock repressed memories or something… What was the point of giving her memory powers in the first place if we aren't going to get any payoff from that?
Erase the the strawhats deeds from Big Mom's mind? I would prefer more but I wouldn't put it pass Oda.
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@Count:
And that's certainly a terrible crime that should stop. But many characters in this series, including allies like Whitebeard, Law, and Shanks, have questionable morals. This flashback highlights how her current mentality is a product of being treated like a spoiled kid, there being some form of empathy in her, and how her illness is out of control and needs to be cured somehow. The chapter literally ends with her crying over Mother Carmel's disappearance. Oda always writes his villains in an apathetic, irredeemable fashion. Big Mom is a total mixed bag that breaks against that formula (like having a dream as innocent as wanting to sit eye-to-eye with her family or having a country that has racial harmony), and likely for a reason. Like not getting unreasonably defeated this arc because she's not going to still hate Luffy by the end of it.
Doffly had a traumatic past and felt conflicted on killing his brother. Oda could be going for less black and white villain for now on. especially if we are not even defeating this one.
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I would be pretty annoyed if the children are not dead. It fits perfectly with Big Mom being basically the incarnation of a folkloric tale. The story of Big monster that was so unaware of his strength and size that he ate his whole family and if you listen close enough you can still heer calling for them today.
Any less is just boring. Everyone involve is in their 70s at least meaning super old by OP standards. The relevance would be a mere "My mom/dad used was a orphan"
Despite me still considering the flashback not being as clearcut as it might seem… I actually agree that it would be disappointing to see Oda backpedal from such a cool dark twist. Ugh, this flashback has me feeling so conflicted.
Erase the the strawhats deeds from Big Mom's mind? I would prefer more but I wouldn't put it pass Oda.
Ew. I am really, REALLY hoping that doesn't happen. All this build-up between their tension, and the result is just Big Mom forgetting all of it.
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Doffly had a traumatic past and felt conflicted on killing his brother. Oda could be going for less black and white villain for now on. especially if we are not even defeating this one.
He had a traumatic past, but Oda made it very clear that he was an irredeemable monster. He literally has Rosinante say that Doflamingo was "born evil". Actually, part of the reason why Rosinante exists is to act as a foil to show that Doffy's background does not excuse his actions. I like having complex villains that you can both hate and feel sympathetic for, but Oda's not into that. He could change how he characterizes villains, but I'm not betting on it happening. Especially when everything in this flashback only makes me feel bad for Linlin.
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Work took up all my time, finally got a chance to read the chapter. Man this chapter was all kinds of F'ed up. You got child trafficking Caramel and the implication that Big Mom ate everyone at her party. I thought this flashback was gonna be the usual sob backstory, but it really gave a ton of insight into why Big Mom is the way she is. Props to Oda for accomplishing this in a mere 2 chapters.
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It does make you wonder how this normal looking human shanks got on par with these natural born monsters. BM, kaidou, even wb as giant human, bb himself seems to have special body, vey resistant and can eat more fruits.
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@uniaka:
It does make you wonder how this normal looking human shanks got on par with these natural born monsters. BM, kaidou, even wb as giant human, bb himself seems to have special body, vey resistant and can eat more fruits.
The same way that Roger did, of course.
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If Luffy defeats Big Mom doesn't that make him a Yonko?
I think once Luffy defeats Kaido and the other Yonko he'll be considered someone with Yonko status to the world governemnt, but won't actually be considered a Yonko among other pirates. He just isn't the type to control fleets, territories, or large groups of underlings.
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I loved how evil Carmel was. To keep up that facade for so long takes a really messed up personality.
From what we've seen from BM, I think it's safe to assume that she doesn't train to get stronger. So however physically strong she is now is just from natural growth since she was 5. I feel like Oda sold her short in the scene where Nami's team rescued Brook. Her bedroom should have been in way worse shape.
So the giantbeard was too old to even attempt to save apparently. So if Otherbeard is alive 60 years later, he must have a foot and a half in the grave by now.
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I would be pretty annoyed if the children are not dead. It fits perfectly with Big Mom being basically the incarnation of a folkloric tale. The story of Big monster that was so unaware of his strength and size that he ate his whole family and if you listen close enough you can still heer calling for them today.
Any less is just boring. Everyone involve is in their 70s at least meaning super old by OP standards. The relevance would be a mere "My mom/dad used was a orphan".
Croquembouche's key ingredient is caramel.
So…yep.R.I.P. orphans. -
If eating a Devil fruit user does give you their powers
…I kinda wanna see Jimbei after eating Sanji's special "emergency rations" dish.
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@Count:
Since you asked so kindly:
! http://i.imgur.com/T6wqL8m.jpg
! http://i.imgur.com/PozOThe.jpgThese don't even just look like those orphans grown up, they look like their children after becoming a couple of many of her husbands.
the panda girl doesn't really even look like that….the child was probably a panda mink..the one at the tea party is just a girl with a panda hoodie
for the crown kid,there are actually at least 2 different people along those 3 panls since there are different clothes in at least 2 of them..or maybe he/she just discarded his/her jacket mid-party
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I'm surprised no one did a Dark Souls joke yet.
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So BM will find out what she did… then what? How would that change things?
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@uniaka:
So BM will find out what she did… then what? How would that change things?
If she ate everyone, not much.
But if she gets an answer to what happened to Caramel and kids (and it's different than her gulping then all down), she might change her personality a little.
Don't need to tell you which option sounds more interesting to me.
Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
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The way it is told reminds me of Pudding presentation. At that time people argued wether she was good or evil. Here it is a bit the same, Oda wrote it so that it can goes any way.
On the other point, I would not like that devil fruit powers transfer by eating people. first there is the SBS, second I find it is source to plotholes. Also wouldn't big mum have question herself if suddenly she could not swim and has unknown powers ? -
The island in the flash back is part of Totland. I once thought Lin Lin sailed the world and then settled into where she is now with the surrounding islands. I'm guessing she started making everything come to life soon after the incident and built up her base.
I might have missed something. How do you know this? It's really interesting if she formed her empire from such an impactful spot on her childhood.
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She eats them because they are sweets, not because they can talk. It's already established in her flashback that she's a sugar junkie.
She gives them life so they can scream when she eats them. Same for Smoothie's power. It remembers her of the best day of her life when she ate the food she prefers and had people screaming around her.
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@Count:
Considering how all of the Emperors are roughly on the same level of power compared to how dissonant the range of strength is for the Warlords, yes, one-two Emperors being taken down by Luffy is enough for the story.
To make things clearer, I am not considering Blackbeard as an emperor opponent. Also, I am not saying that Luffy will take down Linlin but there are ways to beat her without having to save her and becoming friends.
Sanji sabotaging Linlin would go completely against his character arc's moral of needing to rely on his friends for help instead of being so recklessly self-sacrificial.
Did you miss the part where I say that the same break down and resolution could still be used. And absolutely not, he was still putting up a fight from a moral standpoint by questioning Vinsmoke's lifestyle to the point that he had to be cuffed and blackmailed. IF he was going to have those two elements either way, then as an example of my idea: Sanji starts sabotaging ships and is discovered by the Vinsmoke bros, they won't say anything because Big Mom could kill all of them, but cuff and blackmail Sanji into not doing anything else. Have the story in the same manner afterwards. How does that go completely against his arc moral?
The point to make would be that when did Sanji actually stop relying on his friends. I would venture and say from Zou, that fake smile he put on was when he discarded them. In that case, then my proposition does not fit at all, that is correct. However, Sanji had expressed verbally his intentions on not going through with the wedding and that he had to go back to his friends. With him being so vocal, I was under the impression that he must have known that Luffy would come for him even if it meant stepping into an emperor's backyard. The idea was: "I cannot do anything myself, but I know they are coming, so I need to make sure we can make it out".
And I'm not saying that Big Mom chasing the Straw Hats out of her territory is less impactful than letting him leave. On their own, I'm fine with either action. But I prefer the latter because it allows the plotlines for this arc to actually be resolved in a deserving satisfactory fashion. A quick rush out of Whole Cake once Big Mom goes makes all of the focus on the conflicts of the Charlotte Family, Lola, the Baratie, and Fishman Island seem wasteful. The former two get pushed off as just being "well, they were a crazy family, who cares about them" after all of the panel time focused on Linlin and Pudding's character dynamics as well as Pekoms and Pound's plights, the Baratie's safety is relegated as a side thought that makes the Straw Hats look irresponsible, especially since saving Zeff should be impossible for them on their own, and we waited YEARS to get a clear resolution to Luffy's declaration of war against Big Mom and Big Mom gaining the Fishman Island bomb. Jimbei joining the crew and leaving the island before assuring his home's safety (although I don't think he knows about the bombs) just wouldn't be right, and having the bombs explode after the Straw Hats leave would be both anticlimactic and reduce the character development that the Charlotte Family is most likely going to get in making a truce with the Straw Hats by having her attack Fishman Island.
I know you speed read, but I have mentioned ways to resolve some of those plot lines, and you are under the impression that I am denying those or pushing them aside. They are in the text you quoted, but I'll go at them individually:
Have I explicitly said that they will run after shooting? No, I haven't, so I am not denying further progress on the matter of Lola. What exactly do you mean when talking about the Charlotte Family's conflict? I am expecting another flashback to deal with more recent events.
Baratie: Let's see, was there anyone that just got saved that were the ones actually threatening the restaurant and their owner to make one of the protagonist do their whim. Oh yeah, Germa 66. With such a clean solution, the Germa showing gratitude towards Luffy, pledge their allegiance and promise that they will protect the restaurant from Big Mom's forces. Even if Mama herself decided to come, good thing Baratie is a ship, so they are free to move from their current location. Would it not be interesting to maybe see through a cover story Zeff and Jeff (I mean Judge) interacting with each other? How come this does not work? The concern is not a side thought, Luffy and the Vinsmokes would come to an agreement on how to handle the situation.
Fishman Island: I am not saying Jimbe or the Straw Hats not worrying and completely discarding the nation's safety is irresponsible, but the same way you suggest that Sanji acting the way I proposed goes against his character act, then Jimbe still taking responsibility goes against his. My point is: it is not Jimbe's responsibility anymore. That was the whole point of Aladdin and the rest of them asking to be selfish and to think about himself. Fishman Island is Aladdin's(as a messenger) responsibility to handle and make sure they are prepared against Big Mom's wrath.
That is the thing though YOU want Jimbe to still be tied to his home safety, while even the characters in the story are telling him: enough! It works best that Luffy as a contender for the throne and upcoming great pirate to have his allies be ready for confrontation and act as his troops (even though he doesn't want it).
Lola AND Chiffon: Yes Lola's flashback is important, but are we to expect the abuse Chiffon had for years at her Mom's hand to be waved away just because Linlin does not have a food craving anymore? Chiffon's abuse occurred from a conscious action, not because Big Mom could not control herself.
An escape can ONLY happen after the wedding gets resolved. It's that simple. Her authority is going to be in being able to corner and overwhelm the Straw Hats at her leisure after the assassination attempt fails (and after her inevitable rampage is quelled), but deciding not to likely for debt, family, and plot twist reasons.
The Bomb: I already conceded on having the conflict at the wedding resolved neutrally to be sparked again by the bomb and forcing them to escape. My point is, Luffy should leave WCI in the same manner that Urouge did, being chased after not getting a free jail card.
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Luffy having BM and Kaidou under his belt, while BB has WB and Shanks under his belt in the end…what better heavy weight clash we could possibly hope for the PK title^^
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She gives them life so they can scream when she eats them. Same for Smoothie's power. It remembers her of the best day of her life when she ate the food she prefers and had people screaming around her.
I get what you're saying, but we've seen it happen only once. It could be a pattern or it could not.
It's also possible that Pudding changed a traumatic experience into a happy experience. Something in those narration boxes seems suspicious.
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The way it is told reminds me of Pudding presentation. At that time people argued wether she was good or evil. Here it is a bit the same, Oda wrote it so that it can goes any way.
On the other point, I would not like that devil fruit powers transfer by eating people. first there is the SBS, second I find it is source to plotholes. Also wouldn't big mum have question herself if suddenly she could not swim and has unknown powers ?So…let's see:
1)We have a character called Mother Caramel,a Soul Soul Fruit user, that disappears while Big Mom is savagely eating a croquembouche and everything around it.
2)Caramel is a key ingredient for croquembouche.
3)Screams are heard during the scene…everything is left destroyed after Big Mom stops eating...and she stands now as the current Soul soul fruit user.
4)The flashback seems pretty much over,according to the end line of the chapter("[…]the assassination plot continues").Sorry,but I really cannot see how Oda "wrote it so that it can goes any way".
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So…let's see:
1)We have a character called Mother Caramel,a Soul Soul Fruit user, that disappears while Big Mom is savagely eating a croquembouche and everything around it.
2)Caramel is a key ingredient for croquembouche.
3)Screams are heard during the scene…everything is left destroyed after Big Mom stops eating...and she stands now as the current Soul soul fruit user.
4)The flashback seems pretty much over,according to the end line of the chapter("[…]the assassination plot continues").Sorry,but I really cannot see how Oda "wrote it so that it can goes any way".
one problem,she is NOT called caramel
it's Carmel
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So…let's see:
1)We have a character called Mother Caramel,a Soul Soul Fruit user, that disappears while Big Mom is savagely eating a croquembouche and everything around it.
2)Caramel is a key ingredient for croquembouche.
3)Screams are heard during the scene…everything is left destroyed after Big Mom stops eating...and she stands now as the current Soul soul fruit user.
4)The flashback seems pretty much over,according to the end line of the chapter("[…]the assassination plot continues").Sorry,but I really cannot see how Oda "wrote it so that it can goes any way".
1. Caramel is revealed to be evil and planning one last trade - selling Linlin to CP.
2. She throws a party for her, things happen, she's nowhere to be seen.
3. CP thread (introduced 2 pages before) seemingly cut off.No, there's definitely nothing to expand anymore, we definitely got the whole story.
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A "colossal" problem indeed.After all,"Carmel" clearly doesn't hint towards "caramel",right?
Anyway…what can I do if this page http://readms.net/r/one_piece/867/4309/16 shows "mother caramel" instead?I'm not the translator guy here. -
A "colossal" problem indeed.After all,"Carmel" clearly doesn't hint towards "caramel",right?
Anyway…what can I do if this page http://readms.net/r/one_piece/867/4309/16 shows "mother caramel" instead?I'm not the translator guy here.Carmel clearly hints to this, man: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelites
T](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelites)his is what mangastream generates with their shitty translations. Wrong interpretations that lead to wild theories that could be simply solved by reading a better translation (not saying this is the case, just a little bit though).
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^This is the reason why I read three different versions of the translations, I have fallen to this nasty trap quite a few times.
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So…let's see:
1)We have a character called Mother Caramel,a Soul Soul Fruit user, that disappears while Big Mom is savagely eating a croquembouche and everything around it.
2)Caramel is a key ingredient for croquembouche.
3)Screams are heard during the scene…everything is left destroyed after Big Mom stops eating...and she stands now as the current Soul soul fruit user.
4)The flashback seems pretty much over,according to the end line of the chapter("[…]the assassination plot continues").Sorry,but I really cannot see how Oda "wrote it so that it can goes any way".
That's because you're refusing to use your imagination more.
Might start with asking why the ambiguity if it's supposed to be so clear what happened.
Like, if BM had indeed eaten all or most of them, it makes no sense that she couldn't have become aware of it with time. (Or when she started noticing human skulls in her stool??? )
I feel like it's evident her memory was tampered with. If it was tampered with, there's a high possibility we're being lead to wrong conclusion.
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the panda girl doesn't really even look like that….the child was probably a panda mink..the one at the tea party is just a girl with a panda hoodie
for the crown kid,there are actually at least 2 different people along those 3 panls since there are different clothes in at least 2 of them..or maybe he/she just discarded his/her jacket mid-party
Which is why I say she may be his child. We don't see enough of the panda kid to know if it's attire or a Mink. And Oda probably pays attention to characters referencing pandas due to all of the Pandaman cameos.
I didn't notice that, but that's probably because I didn't make the image. I still think there may be a connection with the person in the middle image though, because even the hairstyles are similar in that one.
So…let's see:
1)We have a character called Mother Caramel,a Soul Soul Fruit user, that disappears while Big Mom is savagely eating a croquembouche and everything around it.
2)Caramel is a key ingredient for croquembouche.
3)Screams are heard during the scene…everything is left destroyed after Big Mom stops eating...and she stands now as the current Soul soul fruit user.
4)The flashback seems pretty much over,according to the end line of the chapter("[…]the assassination plot continues").Sorry,but I really cannot see how Oda "wrote it so that it can goes any way".
Not that your logic doesn't make sense, but we also shouldn't forget that this is the same arc where the truth about Sanji's mom wasn't completely covered in his flashback and was revealed around a dozen chapters later.
@K.:
To make things clearer, I am not considering Blackbeard as an emperor opponent. Also, I am not saying that Luffy will take down Linlin but there are ways to beat her without having to save her and becoming friends.
That's why I said 1-2 Emperors. And I also consider Teach in the same vein. And there are other wars, like coercion and such. That could still happen. I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. But because of the story focusing so much on the tension within the Charlotte Family, I expect to see some sort of resolution that makes them nicer.
Did you miss the part where I say that the same break down and resolution could still be used. And absolutely not, he was still putting up a fight from a moral standpoint by questioning Vinsmoke's lifestyle to the point that he had to be cuffed and blackmailed. IF he was going to have those two elements either way, then as an example of my idea: Sanji starts sabotaging ships and is discovered by the Vinsmoke bros, they won't say anything because Big Mom could kill all of them, but cuff and blackmail Sanji into not doing anything else. Have the story in the same manner afterwards. How does that go completely against his arc moral?
The point to make would be that when did Sanji actually stop relying on his friends. I would venture and say from Zou, that fake smile he put on was when he discarded them. In that case, then my proposition does not fit at all, that is correct. However, Sanji had expressed verbally his intentions on not going through with the wedding and that he had to go back to his friends. With him being so vocal, I was under the impression that he must have known that Luffy would come for him even if it meant stepping into an emperor's backyard. The idea was: "I cannot do anything myself, but I know they are coming, so I need to make sure we can make it out".
I didn't really see where I missed anything, but if so, I'm sorry.
Why are we talking about Sanji's earlier actions in the arc though? It's really clear that his overall character arc was needing to be pushed to the point of coming to his friends for help instead of thinking he could bare it all on his own. And the only way that stays consistent is if he really couldn't do anything to help his situation by himself. Which includes sabotaging Big Mom. Sanji's Mr. Prince actions in other arcs work because we don't see him for a while and have a general idea that he's going somewhere that is big place for the enemy. Having a reveal where he somehow sabotaged the Charlottes all the way back when he was still rebelling against the Vinsmokes not only goes against the helplessness of his character arc, but also comes also as extremely lazy writing because of how long ago that was without any indications or hints. Especially considering how when he did finally leave to go meet Luffy, he ran into Bobbin and there were guards outside of his door keeping their posts. So it should not be possible for him to secretly leave his area twice. If you were Oda and actually wrote a scene where Sanji tried to sabotage but got caught by the Vinsmokes, THEN that could pay off later because of how it was built-up. But without that, there's not really a need to have this what-if discussion because we're past the point where this is possible in the scope of good writing.
I know you speed read, but I have mentioned ways to resolve some of those plot lines, and you are under the impression that I am denying those or pushing them aside. They are in the text you quoted, but I'll go at them individually:
Have I explicitly said that they will run after shooting? No, I haven't, so I am not denying further progress on the matter of Lola. What exactly do you mean when talking about the Charlotte Family's conflict? I am expecting another flashback to deal with more recent events.
I read over your original post. You didn't mention any resolutions.
"But in this case Luffy would just defeat 1 emperor. Given that Blackbeard will be more of a battle of kings. The only reason I am hesitant is because of how we are supposed to take Linlin as pure, which in itself is already a hard pill to swallow. The same could be said that if they escape it is a testament to Big Mom's strength. Anyways, either way, my idea of a escape had also included Sanji sabotaging Big Mom operations while he waited for Luffy to come. If Jimbe can show enough determination to say life, I had hoped Sanji did the same, be broken either way and regaining his determination in the same way. However, his suicidal tendencies were stronger than that. If Urouge can be chased off, why can't the Strawhats? Why is it that Big Mom making her damn best to chase and kill them is less of a testament than her telling them they can go. What position of authority will she even have after we have seen Luffy and the alliance challenge evey aspect of Big Mom's rule."
I don't see any resolutions brought up here for the plotlines I mentioned.By Charlotte Family conflict, I mean Big Mom wondering about what happened to Mother Carmel, Big Mom not knowing that she killed Moscato while her children hid the body and told the soul manifestations to collect all of the "seconds", Pudding feeling oppressed by her mother, Pudding's ambiguous relationship with Lola, Pudding needing her ability to be relevant somehow or else it's completely pointless, Pound meeting his daughter(s) again, Pudding needing to be redeemed or something else to cap off her character arc right now of being bused by her family, Chiffon getting payoff on her abusive relationship with Linlin, solving all of the miscommunication in her family made because of fearing their mother's wrath, and treating/curing Linlin's illness after all of the focus it has gotten as a terrible condition out of her control. And then there's Pekoms and whatever role he has to play. Everything here needs to be solved.
Baratie: Let's see, was there anyone that just got saved that were the ones actually threatening the restaurant and their owner to make one of the protagonist do their whim. Oh yeah, Germa 66. With such a clean solution, the Germa showing gratitude towards Luffy, pledge their allegiance and promise that they will protect the restaurant from Big Mom's forces. Even if Mama herself decided to come, good thing Baratie is a ship, so they are free to move from their current location. Would it not be interesting to maybe see through a cover story Zeff and Jeff (I mean Judge) interacting with each other? How come this does not work? The concern is not a side thought, Luffy and the Vinsmokes would come to an agreement on how to handle the situation.
Germa got access to using the Baratie as a hostage through Big Mom's power. Just because they won't threaten to kill Zeff anymore does not mean Big Mom will after she calms down and remembers what the Straw Hats did after they escape. Reiju makes it clear here that while she doesn't care about Sanji or Zeff during that point in the story, she is still using the restaurant as a tool to get what she wants in coercing Sanji.
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!How would the Germa get to the Baratie in time? How can the Baratie outrun Big Mom, especially if her agents are already there. Judge makes it clear that it's Big Mom's connections and power that are tying a noose around the Baratie, not the Germa.
Fishman Island: I am not saying Jimbe or the Straw Hats not worrying and completely discarding the nation's safety is irresponsible, but the same way you suggest that Sanji acting the way I proposed goes against his character act, then Jimbe still taking responsibility goes against his. My point is: it is not Jimbe's responsibility anymore. That was the whole point of Aladdin and the rest of them asking to be selfish and to think about himself. Fishman Island is Aladdin's(as a messenger) responsibility to handle and make sure they are prepared against Big Mom's wrath.
That is the thing though YOU want Jimbe to still be tied to his home safety, while even the characters in the story are telling him: enough! It works best that Luffy as a contender for the throne and upcoming great pirate to have his allies be ready for confrontation and act as his troops (even though he doesn't want it).
They're telling him "ENOUGH" because Fishman Island is currently safe and they can take care of themselves from now on. If Fishman Island comes under siege from an Emperor, that is clearly disrupting the peace and putting them at risk of destruction. And this isn't just about me selfishly wanting Jimbei to act in a certain way, this is a matter of his portrayal as a selfless and wise person. Oda wants the Straw Hats to be likable and compassionate people despite pursuing their selfish dreams. Jimbei knowing about Fishman Island being at risk and saying "Oh well, I'm in my own pirate crew now. They can take care of things without me" is irresponsible, apathetic, and just plain repugnant. He might be taking part in an assassination plan right now that will surely upset her the most that he ever can, but the intention is to kill her and be rid of her presence. Meaning that Fishman Island wouldn't be in much danger due to the panic and power vacuum Big Mom will leave.
Jimbei's character development is about not being the sole martyr for Fishman Island anymore. He has protected them to the point that they can now finally fend for themselves and trust humans. Especially thanks to the Reverie coming up where they can give their say and finally gain independence. That does not mean Jimbei should not try to help when he explicitly knows they are in significant danger as a society.
And the issue here is that Luffy doesn't have any means of communications with his troops, primarily because he doesn't want them to bother him or for them to be subservient to him. They only have the Vivre Cards.
Lola AND Chiffon: Yes Lola's flashback is important, but are we to expect the abuse Chiffon had for years at her Mom's hand to be waved away just because Linlin does not have a food craving anymore? Chiffon's abuse occurred from a conscious action, not because Big Mom could not control herself.
Of course not. There's going to be more than that. Like maybe a revelation that Pudding tampered with Big Mom's memories relating to Elbaf either during Linlin's childhood or the failed political marriage for some sort of hidden agenda. Or Pound coming in to finally see his daughter again, along with maybe Lola making a surprise entrance after probably getting married to Lucky Roo. The thing about Chiffon's abuse is that it happened off-panel and could be due to memory tampering if Oda sees fit.
The Bomb: I already conceded on having the conflict at the wedding resolved neutrally to be sparked again by the bomb and forcing them to escape. My point is, Luffy should leave WCI in the same manner that Urouge did, being chased after not getting a free jail card.
But Urouge did nothing to earn a free jail card outside of defeating a Sweet General like Luffy did.
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This all seems really weird.
First of all this is One Piece, its not cannibalism. Dark Oda isn't happening all of a sudden. Not this Dark.
In Laws flashback we had little Law hiding in mass of corpses and also group of kids shoot dead to the head.
I think it was darker than what Big Mom very likely just did in her flashback.
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I might have missed something. How do you know this? It's really interesting if she formed her empire from such an impactful spot on her childhood.
It's the hills. It's gotta be the same place.