@parklane21:
Firetank Pirates seems to gonna do a coup… with Big Mom's own daughter's blessing. Still not certain though. Still, we knew from Charlote Praline convos that she will side with her husband against Big Mom, and Lola even left. Seems not 100% of her children approve of her. I suspect the throwing-away-husband-after-2-kids thing was a factor on it.
Definitely true. Her children seem to be divided up among their sense of loyalty. It's still not going to be enough to defeat Big Mom and the Sweet Commanders though.
That remains to be seen really. I think the mink and fishmen pirates are pretty substantial force. And with luck, Sanji can turn Germa for him. And Homies currently works for Nami, with smart navigation (see what I did there), she can keep that long-enough before Big Mom notices.
It's playing it's part already by usurping power over the homies (temporarily). And mental disorder needs shrinks and may not have a cure. Though Chopper can diagnose her, she already knows her medication, which is whatever she craves.
I was literally thinking that you were just talking about Pedro and Carrot until I saw your elaboration on those Minks that may or may not still be loyal to Pedro lol. That was not obvious at all considering how they appeared for a few panels. But since that connection was made, yeah, I can see at least some of them joining up under Pedro. But that also depends on where Pekoms' plot goes, because his last conversation with Bege can still be interpreted as still being loyal to Big Mom.
And yes, the Vivre Cards could arguably be used to that effect. I can see them being rallied as well, as comedic as that is to think about.
I still think you're heavily underestimating Chopper's role though. We still don't even have an idea about what exactly Big Mom's illness even is. Chopper's not a shrink sure, but it's extremely doubtful that Oda plugged a medically trained main character into this arc when the antagonist has some sort of illness for no reason. Not to mention that Caesar is around to possibly and begrudgingly help like on Zou. It doesn't have to be an absolute cure, but they can definitely help try to mediate her illness from requiring a random sweet to not evolve in Godzilla lol. Just because we've only seen Chopper specialize in medicine thus far does not mean that he didn't learn anything on a psychological level from Kureha, especially when it comes to dealing with symptoms of mental illnesses. Especially considering how Drum Island had major theming around the prevalence of spiritual healing even more than physically, as well as Chopper's dream of wanting to be a doctor that can cure any illness. This is a perfect opportunity to test him and show his stuff. And it's also a action shonen manga, so it doesn't have to that realistic lol.
Doflamingo was quite entertained with Luffy too. Remember when he suggested to let Luffy and Ace go in the war for it is more fun that way. And they still fight because Doffy is beating on his friend (Law). Big Mom already has a beef on Luffy because of that exchange in FI. And if there's even gonna be a negotiation, in exchange for Jimbei and Sanji I bet she'll demand something outrageous, for example, Robin to read her poneglyphs. That's not gonna end well.
That's because Doflamingo was a different case where he was a complete anarchist and liked laughing behind the stands. He was just interested in the sake of chaos whether than giving a damn about Luffy or Ace, especially considering how as a former Celestial Dragon, he views himself way above everybody else and might have used his crewmates as tools if we look at Baby 5 and a couple of Law's statements.
Here's the difference with Big Mom. We see that when she talks with Jimbei, instead of going into some villain cliche where they demand utter subjugation like "HOW DARE YOU BETRAY THE BIG BOSS, DIE", she surprisingly tolerated his interest and specifically said that pirates should be allowed to do whatever their heart desires. In fact, an instance like this was brought up before where when Tamago and Pekoms were trying to convince Big Mom to accept Fishman Island's treasure as compensation for not having the quote for sweets, she reprimanded them and claimed that pirates should not have to compromise on what they honestly want. Also, we should remember that all the way back in Alabasta, Luffy said something peculiarly similar where he claimed that the difference between being a pirate and a hero is that the latter has to share his meat with everybody while a pirate can selfishly eat it all for themselves. Not to mention that Luffy aims to become Pirate King to become the freest man in the world without having to adhere to any limitations or boundaries, and didn't like the idea of having allies constantly follow him as a constant burden.
Oda loves to insert theming around specific perspectives of romanticism, piracy, inherited will, dreams, and family that portray all of them in an unexpected, yet positive light. I very much doubt that the parallels between Big Mom and Luffy made above are just a coincidence. And a key difference between Doflamingo and Big Mom is that Big Mom could actually be negotiated with, which I mentioned over and over again. Yes, she demands outrageous prices. But they tend to be based around some type of game where the other opponent has some chance of winning in their own right. Such as Jimbei with the roulette, which we have no idea about how that's going to work. Or allowing the Straw Hat Pirates to become a target instead of Fishman Island. Just in Luffy's first conversation with a Yonko, she interested Big Mom enough to test his willpower and fulfill what he demanded. This is most likely going to play a role for sure, and you're heavily underestimating how prideful, stubborn, and absolutely stupid Luffy can be. He literally declared war on a Yonko before even making it into the New World in their first conversation and was disappointed about the decision to not secure the huge Road Poneglyphs themselves rather than copy their script (and honestly, I wouldn't doubt that Luffy or somebody else still finds some way to do that, especially since Jimbei was able to transport his own Poneglyph in the cover story).
But I think there's a misunderstanding going on here. You seem to have this impression that I'm advocating a scene where, say, Luffy and Big Mom chat over some glasses of tea and meat dishes peacefully while making a deal where Big Mom gets to make as many outrageous conditions as she can. I think that's heavily naive and probably won't roll anywhere that smoothly. Since after all, Big Mom is still corrupt in several major ways when it comes to how she treats her ex-husbands, utilizes political marriages, destroys countries to get certain ingredients or for not fulfilling a tribute quota, etc. Luffy could and SHOULD take issue with that, Big Mom shouldn't have these misdeeds go unacknowledged. And they'll probably have some sort of fight as well. But like you've been saying, Luffy has been gaining a bunch of allies this arc. Not enough to overpower Big Mom, but at least enough to completely throw the wedding and Whole Cake Island into complete havoc regardless.
Considering this potential, do you not think that it's possible in the slightest that Luffy could also push Big Mom into a corner where she herself is forced or charismatically convinced to make a deal on somewhat reasonable terms with Luffy? Especially if Chopper can hold a major role in alleviating Big Mom's illness, and if they somehow reclaim Caesar again as a bargaining chip? Not to mention if Germa 66 gets defeated and comes on their side or something, since Big Mom wants that faction under her due to their scientific prowess in cloning and implementing Bloodline Elements? This doesn't have to become some full-on war, and Luffy and Big Mom are definitely the type to respect each other on some type of degree to make some sort of deal.
For example, I'm personally a fan of the theory that Big Mom might agree to a Davy Back Fight. Yes, it only appeared in one short arc, but we can't underestimate how Oda can bring back plot elements and characters from YEARS earlier with some sort of hidden agenda for elaboration later on. Sanji and Jimbei are already two crewmates that Big Mom has on her side, and Big Mom will most likely be interested in having Chopper (both as a doctor and a unique species to have by her side for racial harmony, which Brûlée mentioned) and may even want to win over the whole crew so that she can have Robin decipher her Poneglyphs (I doubt that the Road Poneglyph espionage job and Jimbei bringing a Poneglyph isn't going to play SOME sort of role). And she might even want Pedro back under her due to being a former Big Mom pirate for all we know.
Or, if Luffy has enough bargaining chips on his side, he could push Big Mom to some form of extortion (or somebody like Nami or Sanji since Luffy's dumb lol). For example, this is what the Straw-Heart Alliance tried to do with Doflamingo at the beginning of Dressrosa by threatening Mingo to give up his Shichibukai title to regain Caesar and his beloved crewmates or draw forth Kaido's wrath from not being able to make more SMILEs. Not that Big Mom can't make her own stipulations as well. You're heavily underestimating the possibilities of this arc not playing out like the usual one with a character like Big Mom around.
And there's Brook's role to consider in all of this. His reputation as the Soul King comes from being able to manipulate his own soul as well as hypnotize the souls of others with his music. So perhaps he'll have a very weird affect on the Homies and all of the incarnations of Big Mom's souls and the soul pieces she's been collecting (not to mention perhaps being scary enough to cause the Homies to lose their souls lol). Such a possibility could render Big Mom to not want to risk all of the souls she's gained and force some sort of, you guessed it, negotiation.
Though I wonder what Big Mom stand to gain if Kaido is beaten. If she thinks, like you think, that Luffy can't touch her, then why would she even trust him to beat Kaido?
…She has literally everything to gain. Big Mom is amassing an empire of races, territories, and information circulation. The Yonko have been in a stalemate for years, and when Whitebeard was in Marineford, Kaido tried to take advantage of this by going their himself before Shanks intercepted him. And when Whitebeard died, pandemonium was released in the New World due to all of his territories being up for grabs. And you want to know who occupied Whitebeard's territories to our knowledge thus far? Blackbeard (due to having knowledge on Whitebeard's activities from being in his crew for years) and none other than Big Mom with Fishman Island. How could she not be interested in the possibility of Kaido being beaten?
She thinks that Luffy can't touch her now. Key word, NOW. But she was hoping for Luffy to show up by the morning. And I'm willing to bet you that Cracker got defeated and Luffy will make some sort of surprise appearance at either the wedding or one of the previous activities like the Vinsmoke-Charlotte Dinner of the customary gift exchange. Keep in mind that Luffy's been stated throughout the series to make all sorts of allies and friends, and convince people to be willing to bet on him. And pay attention to how Big Mom not only likes to make deals (which is actually why she is the Yonko that Jimbei ally under for Fishman Island's protection), but also seems to love games as seen with the roulette that she brought in for Jimbei. Not to mention the fact that people like Shanks and Rayleigh are literally betting the next generation all on Luffy when it comes to becoming Pirate King.
Now, she definitely does not have to concede to supporting Luffy becoming Pirate King before she can since she most likely wants to become Pirate Queen due to having a Road Poneglyph and amassing all of this power. But I can definitely see her being convinced to bank on Luffy to beat Kaido. In fact, I'm absolutely certain that Big Mom and Kaido will interact and clash in the near future due to their dreams both relying on Caesar as well as the fact that the Minks will get a focus in this arc and continuing onwards to Wano (not to mention the whole Mink traitor/Zou Vivre Card plot line). Not to mention the Straw Hats constantly juggling both crews on their plate and those crews being on the same rivaled level of power.
And the thing about Kaido is that he is the one Yonko (besides Blackbeard, but he's obviously endgame material) who has been consistently hyped up and portrayed as an absolute monster. Big Mom's definitely corrupt in her own right, but her build-up and interaction with the Straw Hats is more contained and has room to be unexpectedly remedied while Kaido, especially as the main antagonist of this saga so far, has constantly been described as an unforgiving homicidal mister obsessed with death to the point of wanting to cause a world war by amassing his own artificial Zoan Devil Fruit army. He's the REAL threat that Oda's been trying to concentrate on and build-up since Thriller Bark, and will definitely be defeated at Wano by Luffy's hand. I doubt we will get another Big Mom-focused arc in the future, but her getting taken down purely through fists is not necessary, especially with the Germa already taking the major role of being villains that we should hate and hope to see defeated.
There's nothing for her to really lose from having Kaido being gone besides maybe having his Road Poneglyph be available to Luffy to take for his own. But the alliance does not need to extend past that at all, and she can even have her forces weakened enough from the events of Whole Cake to allow the Marines, the Worst Generation, or even another Yonko take her out in-between arcs or during/right after Wano Country since Big Mom's probably not getting another arc to herself like this.
Well, ain't that the bottomline? You just can't see Luffy beating Big Mom. And feeling like that happens often in the series, yet Luffy beat them anyway after a struggle. I mean, there's nothing wrong with doubting but maybe we should begin trusting on the guy. I also can't see him winning based on information at hand. But awaiting him after this are baddies more sinister. And there won't be a timeskip anytime soon.
I like how you're equating an antagonist as morally complex, powerful, and built-up throughout the series like Big Mom akin to the likes of CP9, Crocodile, or even Caesar. By that logic, Luffy should've eventually beaten the Admirals and Kuma pre-timeskip. I'm not one of the imbeciles proclaiming that there needs to be another timeskip to make the last on redundant, the main characters obviously get stronger over the course of the story. But when it's made a clear point that Luffy has to go all out against a subordinate rather than the boss (and Cracker is definitely not similar to Blueno with how he's pushing Luffy right off of the bat), and has a time limit for his powerful form that he needs to overcome, AND will most likely learn Awakening at some point, there's obviously still room for growth. Literally the only possible way Luffy can beat someone of Big Mom's stature is either if she gets weakened before they truly throw down or if Luffy gets another asspull power-up like in Enies Lobby. And I'm sure that neither of which is preferable for an antagonist like Big Mom who deserves a good portrayal in battle and for our protagonist after clearly showing in his fight with Doflamingo that Gear Fourth was the pinnacle of what he learned over the timeskip (unless you seriously want to argue if Luffy has a Gear Fifth, which has absolutely no evidence behind it).
The key thing about Big Mom is that she doesn't particularly need to be defeated. She definitely needs to be confronted regarding her misdeeds and all of that, but there enough plot threads and unique character interactions going around to let her go undefeated in a fight with Luffy. Especially when the goal is to get the Road Poneglyph scriptures, get Sanji (and Jimbei), and proceed the heck out of dodge. You make it seem like I'm discrediting Luffy as a character when he's clearly already been pushed to the max this arc. Or how he couldn't even beat Doflamingo on his own and needed help so that he wouldn't be killed during the time limit recovery. Oda's making it clear that he still has room to improve and needs time to do it. You're the one who should give more credit to what Luffy needs as a compelling protagonist rather than expecting him to suddenly punch classes above his weight class against a literal world champion even though he's already shown all that he's got.
When Sanji's family is beat, who will the clone pawns follow?
Reiju, probably. There's no way that Sanji's taking control, and the clones are programmed to not rebel against Vinsmokes. Still doesn't account for who can beat the three Sweet Commanders if Luffy is already going top gear against one. And they're not going to get ganged up on by a bunch of inferior minions, especially in a battle shonen manga. Arguably Sanji and Jimbei are the only ones who can even hope to entertain a Yonko Commander, but the latter's situation is very mysterious (he seems to still be following Big Mom if the newspaper isn't just propaganda) and I highly doubt that Sanji is going to have fights with his brothers, Judge, AND a Sweet Commander. That's absurd, and the former fourth one might even still appear in the story to some degree as be an antagonist, ally, or just there for all we know if they're not dead. Meanwhile with Kaido (the Yonko who's actually getting built up as the one who needs to be defeated) and his Calamities, they're going to have players like Zoro, Law, Kid, Hawkins (if he's even still around) probably a betrayal by Drake, Inurashi, Nekomamushi, Marco, and both Sanji and Jimbei once Wano hits. If the Beast Pirates needs that many powerful players to be taken down, then why is Big Mom being undersold to be worth only half of the Straw Hats and a bunch of average soldiers? Sure, the Yonkos don't have to be equal in power, but that's almost slander towards the credibility of a Yonko. They're in a stalemate for a reason.
Irrelevant, Luffy will get close to Big Mom. If situation calls for it, they will fight and none may interrupt. The only allies that matter are the allies that are close. With luck that will be taken care of. And what if it does make Big-Mom look weaker than the others? The bounty of Cracker is less than of Jack, both of equal rank relatively. Looking at that perspective, she does look weaker. But again, it can be argued .
Are you seriously bringing up bounty=power level BS during the arc where Urouge, the Supernova with the lowest bounty pre-timeskip, beat a Sweet Commander while Kid, Apoo, and Bege had to either retreat or submit? Not that Urouge is automatically stronger than them, and Kid/Apoo may have thought that the risk of beating a Yonko Commander would leave them too weakened, but c'mon. At most, bounties are only indicative of how major a character will be in the arc, nothing more than that. This is completely assumptive, and Cracker deserves credit for almost nobody even knowing about his armor as well. The Yonko may not be equal, but that's impossible to calculate and predict. Especially from bounties alone. But if Kaido does indeed have a stronger crew than Big Mom's, which I actually wouldn't doubt due to his SMILE army, then that only supports what I previously said about Big Mom betting on or even supporting Luffy in some way to take down Kaido at Wano.
Doesn't mean that they can't hope for better. Can they even leave peacefully? What awaits out there if they leave? Yeah, they are stuck here. Maybe compared to other islands, they are better of. But a government that prey on its people's lives literally?…
You have literally no evidence for this. There can be some sort of tragic twist where people aren't really allowed to leave, but all we know is that they willingly give small portions of their lifespans and can leave peacefully if they wish. But considering how she's okay with Jimbei leaving in exchange for some form of compensation, it's completely understandable if she lets the Totland citizens go in exchange for not having her protection. The souls that she takes are also used for the Homies in order to protect and survey the land, so it's not exactly for a selfish purpose either like Doflamingo having people turned into toys and completely forgotten if they rebel against him. And the fact that Lola was able to escape and survive makes it a bit likely that citizens of Totland can get away and make it to other islands safely if they wish, but that's a whole other can of beans that we need to see more elaboration on.
I can understand why you think Big Mom could be taken down by Luffy this arc. You're not spouting complete nonsense or anything, you do have some reasonable points. But Big Mom's in a whole weird class of her own, not just power level wise, but when it comes to the narrative structure of this arc and saga as well as her characterization compared to other antagonists (not to mention the Vinsmokes and Bege being around in the same arc), along with why the Straw Hats are here and Kaido being much more built-up as an antagonist that needs to go down. The Straw Hats can certainly put a huge wrench in her operations and give Big Mom a lot of trouble. But there's nobody there capable of beating Big Mom or all of her Sweet Commanders. It's just not possible at this point unless a random power-up shows up like I mentioned before. And do you really want to see Oda go for cheap writing like that for someone of Big Mom's stature in the One Piece world? This conversation isn't just about possibilities, but also writing quality as a credit to Oda as a storyteller. If he doesn't even know how Kaido will be beaten yet by Luffy, what does that say about the chances of Luffy beating Big Mom?
The face of a Straw Hat.
