what would be nice, is some panels in which the SHs are living their everyday life on the Sunny, with Chopper and Robin reading ( omg, that'd be exciting ).
Criticizing One Piece
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@John:
Nobody pointed out that we don't know who Burgess fought in the Block A which makes his victory LAME !!!
It feels like the "strong" fighters were all in the Block B, C and D while the Block A was filled with random shitty fighters. Also, we don't see 'em after the fight or even during the whole arc. And we'll probably never hear about them.do we "know" that the One Piece exists ? we do as readers, we also know that All Blue exists (I mean, of course it does for christ's sake ).
So, Sanji doesn't thinking about All Blue because he doesn't it exists isn't valid.Also, I'd like to bring up that we've never seen anyone looking for All Blue (except Zeff, who's retired), it feels like Sanji is the only one who has heard about All Blue, and is the only one looking for it…
Same for Zoro's dream, never met anyone wanting to be the best swordsman but him (or maybe Kuina).While it's understandable that we didn't met someone wanting to cure all diseases, draw the world's map, build a ship and sail onto every sea with it (and, hey, wtf, isn't Franky's dream done now ?), meet Laboon again, read all the poneglyphs (well, she's the only one that can read 'em) or being a fearless warrior....
It seems silly that no one wants to beat Mihawk... or even discovering All Blue, even though we know people were laughing on Sanji because they were thinking All Blue was just a tale for kids it seems he's the only one who "knows" it "exists" and wants to reach it.
But hey, who knows, maybe we'll learn more about All Blue in the flashback.Those are also good points. I don't really expect to see anybody other than Nami wanting to make a world map, but I don't think we've seen any swordsman claiming to want the title of World's Greatest Swordsman besides Vista at Marineford when he clashed with Mihawk to both protect Whitebeard Pirates/Luffy and as an opportunity to test his swordsmanship. And that's exactly what bothers me about a myth as major as All-Blue if it turned out to be real, how we never see any type of comment on the possibility of this whole mythical sea impossibly existing in the world. It would be pretty easy to work in some Bellamy-esue character outside of the Baratie that doubts the existence of All-Blue, but nope, we never hear about it. But like I keep saying, maybe we'll get more insight during this current Sanji-focused arc.
I know the Franky comment was a joke, but I remember him specifically saying that he wants a ship that can travel to the END of the Grand Line. Although, TECHNICALLY, that means his dream would be finished before getting to Raftel if the Straw Hats ever go to that island that talks about the existence of Poneglyphs that Nekomamushi and Inurashi mentioned back on Zou.
Burgess' treatment during Dressrosa also bothered me. Not necessarily because I thought he was weak at all and I totally understand that he was fighting the Chief of Staff of the Revolutionaries out of anybody he could have been rivals with there. And I like villains, especially the Blackbeard Pirates, that don't seem pretentiously invincible and untouchable to everybody and have every little plan figured out before getting confronted by the protagonist at the endgame.
But from a narrative perspective, it did bother me how Oda specifically drew Burgess, not just getting beat, but humiliatingly overpowered by Sabo at least THREE times during that arc. And for a character like Burgess who will most likely be one of the final antagonists of the series alongside the other Blackbeard Pirates, de-hyping him this early like some typical obnoxious minion that always fails to follow his boss' plan with competence, didn't make much sense to me. At least during all of the other times that the Blackbeard Pirates got owned, they unexpectedly found a way to bounce back and use cunning to their advantage like the underhanded bastards that they are. I'll give Burgess credit for somehow stowing away on a ship undetected and reporting the location of Baltigo to his crew, but it doesn't really remedy the situation back on Dressrosa for me. Having a final antagonist beaten and getting treated like a rag doll this early in the series are two different things.
However, I found a way to make sense of it. Burgess' role in Dressrosa was heavily showcased around being there to hunt down Devil Fruits. In fact, we see him try to win the Mera Mera, then try to kill Luffy and steal the Gomu Gomu after being exasperated by Gear Fourth the first time, and try one last ditch attempt at killing Sabo to steal the Mera Mera when he's beaten again. I take this as Oda subtly building up that Burgess will get an upgrade in power once he finally does manage to steal a Devil Fruit and train with it to compliment his super-strength, luchador wrestler fighting style. I love seeing villains gradually become stronger as the heroes do rather than being at the top of their game the moment they show up.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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I don't think Vivi was fond of violence,but i also don't think she was averse to violence,which is the case for Rebecca.of course you can argue about the pacifism aspect of rebecca,but it is undoubtedly a part of her character,something her mother instilled in her.
And i don't see how Vivi was any more effective,and had any more desired results combat-wise in comparison
to Rebecca.she fought against crocodile and i think robin too,but was promptly defeated.she didn't fight any other top agents of crocodile.the only ones she fought were the chumps who were with the bomb.i would say that that's comparable to rebecca's feats,which were more focused on defensive tactics anywayThe crucial difference is that basically, Vivi had balls, and was presented as such. She needed help, badly, to accomplish her mission, but she charged headfirst into every situation without hesitation, she never chickened out, she never started crying for people to save her – not even when Croc dropped her off the palace! – and neither Cobra nor Kohza dared tell Vivi that she should just bench herself. Even the small victory against the Mr 7 pair (located by Vivi in the first place) is more of a personal accomplishment than Rebecca ever got. Even though Vivi had little personal strength, and needed a ton of assistance, the manga made damn sure to frame her as having admirable conviction and spirit.
When Rebecca wanders off to confront Doflamingo, only to cry and scream “SAVE ME!!!” moments later, that is the exact opposite of that.the point of kyros teaching her wasn't to make her some ass-whooping gladiator,it was teaching her self -defense stuff and dodging,while knocking down the enemy in the least harmful way possible(remember the bladeless sword stuff).and he didn't teach her for 10 years,it started only later when she was much older.
and she was a somewhat accomplished warrior,who didn't actually kill anyone and who uses a bladeless sword and never got hit.It clearly started when she was a kid though? So at the very least she has years upon years more training than someone like Vivi. And even if you rephrase it as "self defense", it was still enough to let Rebecca get monickers like "Speed Phantom" and "Undefeated Woman" in a highly competetive Coliseum. Whether Kyros intention or not, Rebecca was an accomplished fighter. Her fighting style was unorthodox, but she was clearly highly accomplished at it, and with a bit of creative thought an agile fighter who basically uses her sword for judo throws rather than cutting could still contribute outside the Coliseum Context. Or maybe the one time Rebecca decides to use the sword for striking someone is a powerful dramatic moment where she releases a decades worth of frustration in a single moment, instead of a lame flub against Diamante. just
Rebecca's stay in the colosseum was always about enduring and holding on,never really about "i'm gonna take down everyone in my path".it was about staying true to your ideals even if the whole world was against you.
she never wanted to defeat people,she wanted to protect them and that's why kyros told her she didn't have to fight anymore.
though,i agree Rebecca could have played more of a role against diamente,but it wasn't that necessary i thinkThe problem is that Rebecca is not content with just enduring and holding on, that she does express a desire to contribute and take down Doflamingo. Reiterated here, where she litterally goes "I'm not gonna just endure in this Coliseum!!". And of course later, where she seeks out Doflamingo personally. Or when Kyros explicitly told her to remain on the sidelines vs Diamante. Rebecca really really wanted to contribute…but didn't get to. Every chance for a Rebecca accomplishment was used for the benefit of someone else. She fails at pretty much everything she sets out to do.
if she was a prop,then so was every secondary character who couldn't win against their enemy,even people like calgura and paulie
Paulie got a ton of personal moments of contributing at Enies Lobby, and when he lets the SH crew handle CP9, its a final declaration of trust wherupon he lets it go and does something else. If Paulie was like Rebecca he'd keep trying to confront P9, get beaten down every time, cry about it and get bailed out. As for Calgara, he ultimately "failed", but no one bailed him out- he died tragically, because the flashback was a tragedy. Even if Calgara enforces Wipers story, at least he's long dead - Rebecca is alive to see her every failure lead to someone elses glory, through helping poor poor Rebecca. Its not that you can’t have secondary characters in need of help, but Rebecca is lacking in terms of both displays of general competence, and the iron-clad will that characterized Vivi. Rebecca ultimately is only there to be protected or saved, Rebeccas accomplishments and desire to help is irrelevant.
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@Count:
humiliatingly overpowered by Sabo at least THREE times during that arc. And for a character like Burgess who will most likely be one of the final antagonists of the series alongside the other Blackbeard Pirates
What would have been great is someone from the audience ( when Burgess won in Block A ) saying something like "unbelievable, there were some guys in this Block with bounties bigger than 100millions" that's the least Oda could have done.
But in the other hand, he lost against Sabo. And imo, Sabo is the one who will beat Akainu to avenge Ace's death so it didn't really bother. -
@John:
What would have been great is someone from the audience ( when Burgess won in Block A ) saying something like "unbelievable, there were some guys in this Block with bounties bigger than 100millions" that's the least Oda could have done.
But in the other hand, he lost against Sabo. And imo, Sabo is the one who will beat Akainu to avenge Ace's death so it didn't really bother.Agreed. It's moreso that Oda chose to focus so much on Burgess getting manhandled by Sabo several times. Getting beat's fine and perfectly understandable when Sabo's the opponent, it's the unnecessary and arguably detrimental degree that Oda took it for a final Straw Hat opponent that bothers me a bit.
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the point here is choice really
it would be pretty hipocritical to kyros to go on spouting pacifism after having blood on his hands and making a whole career out of violence.
that doesn't mean that he can't desire for her daughter the freedom to not fight if she doesn't want to,by shouldering all the violence by himself..he already see himself as a monster,all he wants is that her daughter isn't forced to become one much like he was because of his environmentThe problem is that the takedown of Diamante is not in any way presented as something bad. Taking down Diamante is 100% awesome. There is nothing about the moment indicating that Rebecca would be "damaged" or "burdened" by assisting in the takedown of her mothers murderer. The chapter, and an entire mangas worth of people fighting for their conviction being presented as admirable, is at odds with Kyros spiel. It makes his statement that Rebecca should be "spared the burden" completely hollow.
that's the thing i never understood of people complaining about this part of the plot…kyros it's not saying to rebecca not to fight because she is a girl,or because violence is something to be avoided,but because she doesn't want to and as a father he wants her to be happy and free to live following her beliefs..something that wasn't possible for him until he regain his body and was finally able to protect her..the best he could do was to teach her a way to defend herself in the least violent way possible
Rebecca clearly wants to go at Diamante, otherwise Kyros wouldn't have to tell her no. Its literally "Daddy knows (you) best, let daddy handle it!", which of course is the point Oda was going for, but again undermines all the agency Rebecca, a 16 year old warrior (older than Chopper, pre time skip!), had expressed during the arc. Which is again enforced when she, instead of staying put, goes after Doflamingo (Rebecca the pacifist!) and instantly suffers for it. She should have listened to Daddy. It reads as if Odas own paternal feelings towards his girls somehow bizarrely overwrote the general themes of the manga.
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@Count:
Agreed. It's moreso that Oda chose to focus so much on Burgess getting manhandled by Sabo several times. Getting beat's fine and perfectly understandable when Sabo's the opponent, it's the unnecessary and arguably detrimental degree that Oda took it for a final Straw Hat opponent that bothers me a bit.
I wouldn't worry that much. I'm sure the devil fruit Burgess will steal, will be so insanely hax to turn the tables completely regarding his actual strenght. And since he's the commander of the first ship on the final enemy crew i can see him being stronger than both Sabo and Shiryu at the end. And besides i don't think Teach has already played all of his secret cards yet, he must have some plan or a trump card for the future. They will all definitely have their time to shine.
I think it's just Oda's way of portraying his favourite ultimate villains, not fearsome at first but clumsy, coward and pathetic at times, only to become suddenly a total nightmare at the end when their secret plan succeed, just like Teach when he stole the Gura Gura fruit. It's not a conventional way of portraying the main enemies, usually final villains are already overpowered and stronger than almost everyone since the beginning, and no mangaka ever dare to make them look pathetic, except Oda.
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@Dr.:
I wouldn't worry that much. I'm sure the devil fruit Burgess will steal, will be so insanely hax to turn the tables completely regarding his actual strenght. And since he's the commander of the first ship on the final enemy crew i can see him being stronger than both Sabo and Shiryu at the end. And besides i don't think Teach has already played all of his secret cards yet, he must have some plan or a trump card for the future. They will all definitely have his time to shine.
I think it's just Oda's way of portraying his favourite ultimate villains, not fearsome at first but clumsy, coward and pathetic at times, only to become suddenly a total nightmare at the end when their secret plan succeed, just like Teach when he stole the Gura Gura fruit. It's not a conventional way of portraying the main enemies, usually final villains are already overpowered and stronger than almost everyone since the beginning, and no mangaka ever dare to make them look pathetic, except Oda.
Actually, Oda specifically mentioned in an SBS that the numbering for the Division Commanders for Yonko crews like Whitebeard and Blackbeard are not based on strength levels. They're just random. So in all likelihood, Shiliew as Zoro's final opponent is probably the strongest (aside from Teach of course), but Burgess was probably the first to raise his hand for the first spot or got lucky in a random draw lol.
SBS Volume 59 (my source is the One Piece wiki):
D: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts
O: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same rank. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups and the division number does not indicate strength. The 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander. Since Blackbeard's crew is modeled after Whitebeard and are meant to a direct parallel, they most likely don't rank commanders by power either. Although Marco most likely is the strongest Whitebeard Commander while being the head of the First Division due to all of the screen time, feats, and praises from other characters that he gets. I just wanted to clarify that for you since it's easy to be mistaken lol.But yes, I agree that Burgess will get a fruit to up his game to turn the tables, I mentioned the possibility before. I also admire how they seem to be these incompetent and reckless underdogs over their heads that seem to defy the odds and utilize deceitful and dishonorable cunning to get ahead of the game. They're the most pirate-y pirates in this manga lol, and similar to how the Straw Hats also defy the odds and stakes against them. It's very entertaining and a credit to, like you said, Oda as a mangaka. I'm confident that Burgess and the rest of the crew will get their moment to shine. I just want Burgess' hilarious pummeling to not go to waste and discredit him as a character and final opponent. and under Oda's pen, I'm sure it won't.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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@Count:
Actually, Oda specifically mentioned in an SBS that the numbering for the Division Commanders for Yonko crews like Whitebeard and Blackbeard are not based on strength levels. They're just random. So in all likelihood, Shiliew as Zoro's final opponent is probably the strongest (aside from Teach of course), but Burgess was probably the first to raise his hand for the first spot or got lucky in a random draw lol.
SBS Volume 59 (my source is the One Piece wiki):
D: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts
O: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same rank. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups and the division number does not indicate strength. The 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander. Since Blackbeard's crew is modeled after Whitebeard and are meant to a direct parallel, they most likely don't rank commanders by power either. Although Marco most likely is the strongest Whitebeard Commander while being the head of the First Division due to all of the screen time, feats, and praises from other characters that he gets. I just wanted to clarify that for you since it's easy to be mistaken lol.I stand corrected. I completely forgot about that SBS. That makes even harder to predict who will fight who at the end, apart from Luffy, Usopp and Chopper.
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@Dr.:
I stand corrected. I completely forgot about that SBS. That makes even harder to predict who will fight who at the end, apart from Luffy, Usopp and Chopper.
True. Although I'm pretty sure that Brook will face Lafitte and Nami will tangle with Catarina Devon due to how similar they are. Everyone else has the chance for multiple options. But that's a different discussion which doesn't suit this thread. I'm just glad to another individual recognize the quality behind the Blackbeard Pirates as antagonists.
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@Daz:
Rebecca clearly wants to go at Diamante, otherwise Kyros wouldn't have to tell her no. Its literally "Daddy knows (you) best, let daddy handle it!", which of course is the point Oda was going for, but again undermines all the agency Rebecca, a 16 year old warrior (older than Chopper, pre time skip!), had expressed during the arc. Which is again enforced when she, instead of staying put, goes after Doflamingo (Rebecca the pacifist!) and instantly suffers for it. She should have listened to Daddy. It reads as if Odas own paternal feelings towards his girls somehow bizarrely overwrote the general themes of the manga.
Rebecca only wanted to go after Diamante because she thought he had downed Kyros. Again, she has the courage to fight people, but only when it's necessary and not because she wants to. Kyros knows his daughter and will do whatever it takes to ensure that she does not have to fight, because he knows she does not want to.
And Doflamingo completely wrecked the Colosseum fighters and Viola, so I don't really see why Rebecca is being singled out here. Doflamingo controlling her is more of a device to give Luffy a grand return, but it fits with her character and honestly, who wouldn't fall into despair in that situation?
Spoiler:
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@Dr.:
I stand corrected. I completely forgot about that SBS. That makes even harder to predict who will fight who at the end, apart from Luffy, Usopp and Chopper.
You mean SH vs BB? I think other fights would be:
-Lafitte vs Nami, they are the navigators of their crews
-Vasco Shot vs Jinbe, he looks like a fishman
-SanJuan Wolf vs Franky Shogun, Wolf is a giant, and Shogun… is also giant XD
-Burgess and Shiliew are the strongest of BB's crew (perhaps this is another Monster Trio) so if Zoro is going to fight against Shiliew, Sanji could fight against Burgess.
-I don't know who will fight Avalo Pizarro and Catarina Devon. -
@Count:
I also admire how they seem to be these incompetent and reckless underdogs over their heads that seem to defy the odds and utilize deceitful and dishonorable cunning to get ahead of the game. They're the most pirate-y pirates in this manga lol, and similar to how the Straw Hats also defy the odds and stakes against them. It's very entertaining and a credit to, like you said, Oda as a mangaka.
I just chime in and add my two cents to that because I too love this aspect about One Piece.
Comparing BB and Luffy is always a good idea. After every arc I picture Teach (Yonko and off-panel king himself) reading a newspaper about Luffy and asking himself, how the F does this kid can pull off all this stuff. I want to throw Buggy in too. All three have become notorious and impressive for the WG and the marines, and the authorities paint a fearful picture of them.
And if we compare the official picture to the one we as readers have of BB, Buggy and Luffy, the uprising of these idiots is even more staggering.!
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You mean SH vs BB? I think other fights would be:
-Lafitte vs Nami, they are the navigators of their crewsThat position in their crews doesn't make them compatible opponents. Navigation hardly influences in a fight.
-Vasco Shot vs Jinbe, he looks like a fishman
So what?
-SanJuan Wolf vs Franky Shogun, Wolf is a giant, and Shogun… is also giant XD
Franky with or without the Shogun would mean no shit if we are talking about sizes.
-Burgess and Shiliew are the strongest of BB's crew (perhaps this is another Monster Trio) so if Zoro is going to fight against Shiliew, Sanji could fight against Burgess.
This one actually makes sense.
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That position in their crews doesn't make them compatible opponents. Navigation hardly influences in a fight.
And we've hardly seen navigation be showcased with Laffitte's character at all. If anything, we've seen him having character traits around hypnotization, tap dancing, wears a top hat, sports a cane, and looks like a freaking Tim Burton character. Reminds me a lot about a certain musically talented skeleton that's light on his feet for some reason…
Franky with or without the Shogun would mean no shit if we are talking about sizes.
With just the Shogun, no. But Megazord Sunny… You know you want it. The Shogun is already a Megazord itself made up of smaller vehicles stored in the Sunny, so it's not a stretch to assume that Franky's endgame involves making the Thousand Sunny into a glorious mechanical titan. And Sanjuan Wolf has a mysterious "Colossal Battleship" epithet as well, which could either refer to his size or even a unique ability.
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SJW is at least at the size of Unicron. Franky would need to build either Pluton or 10 other Sunnies to match his size.
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It isn't just a matter of size, but also the weapons and strength of anything Franky builds. While SJW relies on strength alone (or at least as far as we know at this point in the story), Franky has weapons like the Gaon Cannon and can perhaps utilize Coup de Bursts for agility. Franky specializes in weapons, and the Straw Hats are all about overcoming seemingly titanic untouchable enemies that eclipse them with huge shadows. I don't see Sanjuan Wolf as that much more than a glorified Sea King, Oars, Wadatsumi, and Pica. All of which were taken out by humans immensely smaller through either tactical means or brute strength. Franky utilizing his tech and a Megazord Sunny can wield both of those qualities.
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I think Doflamingo was the best thing about the arc, and that his history with Law was more interesting than his history with the Riku family. I really thought about how Law and the Riku family both had vendettas against Doflamingo, but they felt so distance from each other that it can come off feeling like two different stories are being told at the same time. And in the end I felt Law's story with Doflamingo was stronger than the Riku's, because I really thought there devotion to pacifism was foolish and did them in the end. I mean King Dold should have known better than to trust that a person called the "Heavenly Demon" wouldn't try to do something dirty. Out of the Riku family, I felt Viola and Kyros were the in the most interest, but were bogged down by the jagged focus. Especially with Viola, who just sat out most of the arc and didn't contribute to anything much throughout the middle.
Also I am not a fan of Rebecca, because she really felt like fanservice sob story, that was just another reason to hate Doflamingo.
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General criticism I have about one piece:
Some attacks generally don't seem to make sense. Zoro's Asura and Sanji being able to ignite himself on fire coming to mind. I'm not sure Oda really cares to explain how they work, but I hope he does one day. -
@Kaido:
Rebecca only wanted to go after Diamante because she thought he had downed Kyros. Again, she has the courage to fight people, but only when it's necessary and not because she wants to.
This describes most of the characters in the manga. Kenpachi-style characters are very rare in OP, especially on the protagonist side.
@Kaido:
Kyros knows his daughter and will do whatever it takes to ensure that she does not have to fight, because he knows she does not want to.
Despite her words and actions suggesting otherwise. In every other case in the series a character stating that s/he wants to accomplish something is presented as admirable, except here, because even if Rebecca thinks and says she wants to contribute, Daddy knows her better than herself. After Kyros whole "you are a pacifist!" speech, the first thing Rebecca does is go after Doflamingo!
Really this whole plotline would have worked a lot better if either
- Rebecca had been an actual child, and not a seasoned 16 year old in a shonen manga
- Kyros past was actually horrible and actually elaborated on, maybe with still-lingering traces of bloodlust he had to control
- Rebecca was falling into angry bloodlust as well, and this was framed as a unappealing thing by the manga
- If Kyros must take over a burden for Rebecca by beating Diamante, make it an actual burden, and not glamorous.
@Kaido:
And Doflamingo completely wrecked the Colosseum fighters and Viola, so I don't really see why Rebecca is being singled out here. Doflamingo controlling her is more of a device to give Luffy a grand return, but it fits with her character and honestly, who wouldn't fall into despair in that situation?
I single out Rebecca because the point I am making is that Rebecca has very little in terms of personal accomplishments; unlike Viola and the gladiators, Rebecca comes straight from a fight where she was in over her head and cried for people to save her…and then immediately places herself in another situation where shes in over her head and cries for people to save her. As you say, its a moment specifically engineered to make someone else look good; of course its a horrible experience people would despair over, but it was ultimately Oda who put her to use for such an experience…again.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Kaido:
Rebecca and Vivi are two different people with different backgrounds. Actually, the only time Rebecca called out for someone else to save her was for Kyros in Chapter 757, but let's look at the context: She was up against Diamante, the man responsible for her most traumatic childhood memory. Plus, he had been overwhelming her from the start. Some characters can put trauma like this aside, but others cannot. No one criticized Nami for crying and Luffy stepping in to save her after the trauma Arlong caused her finally caught up to her.
This is another debate entirely but in retrospect, even though I love the Arlong arc to bits, it is kinda annoying how Nami shows up at Arlong Park, announces that she will kill Arlong, and then proceeds to stand around as a spectator for the rest of the finale. I get that its about lifting the burden off her, but every new crewmember needed assistance like that, and still got to help save themselves, at least a little.
@Kaido:
Vivi never really experienced trauma like this. Her mission was to thwart Crocodile's scheme to take over Alabasta, whereas Dressrosa is basically what Alabasta would be like if Crocodile's plan had succeeded, with Rebecca having to struggle against something much more rooted and powerful. And Vivi was never in the same situations as Rebecca. Crocodile never took her attacks on him seriously and just left the room…whereas Doflamingo and Diamante actively overwhelmed and tried to kill Rebecca. Plus, Vivi had to rely on Pell to save her from the Billions at one point and the Straw Hats had to help her avoid the officer agents.
Vivi had to watch a civil war tear her country apart over two years, and pit her father against her best friend. But even if we objectively score Rebecca to have a 10 point worse sad history, such a history doesn't have to "break" a character, it can galvanize their resolve, so that they can give their all and try to overcome it.
@Kaido:
Take a look at the big picture, and you see two family members that have their own goals and dreams, but are selfless enough to do whatever it takes to help each other. That is definitely a team effort.
In the end, Kyros explicitly says that he'll handle the situation alone, and does so. Rebecca contributes nothing whatsoever - had she sat at the plateau and twiddled her thumbs, she'd in fact have made things easier for everyone. Thats not teamwork.
@Kaido:
Obviously, since it's not like a son would have the same personality traits as Rebecca.
Why not? "Hormones!" is not a valid answer since Oda is in complete godlike control of the characters. So if you repeat the points I listed and flip the gender, why should things play out differently?
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@Daz:
The problem is that the takedown of Diamante is not in any way presented as something bad. Taking down Diamante is 100% awesome. There is nothing about the moment indicating that Rebecca would be "damaged" or "burdened" by assisting in the takedown of her mothers murderer. The chapter, and an entire mangas worth of people fighting for their conviction being presented as admirable, is at odds with Kyros spiel. It makes his statement that Rebecca should be "spared the burden" completely hollow.
pointed that rebecca had basically zero impact in taking down diamante other than being saved,so i don't know why she should feel any "damaged" or "burdened" by diamante's defeat,again the point has never been "violence is wrong",onepiece is a battle manga,it would be absurd to state in such absolute terms that. the point has been "i want you to live your life how you want it,and now i finally can do something about that". It's about the love of a father for her daughter,not about pacifism…in that you can believe or not,it's up to you...in fact in the end the people like riku end up looking extremely naive,but it's their choice (dressrosa citizien included), all the other can do,if they care about them,is do so that they can continue lving by their beliefs with no harm going to them...that's basically what kyros has done the whole time,even when he was the chief of the guards of dressrosa..he was still fighting while everyone in the country was free to be "peaceful"
@Daz:Rebecca clearly wants to go at Diamante, otherwise Kyros wouldn't have to tell her no. Its literally "Daddy knows (you) best, let daddy handle it!", which of course is the point Oda was going for, but again undermines all the agency Rebecca, a 16 year old warrior (older than Chopper, pre time skip!), had expressed during the arc. Which is again enforced when she, instead of staying put, goes after Doflamingo (Rebecca the pacifist!) and instantly suffers for it. She should have listened to Daddy. It reads as if Odas own paternal feelings towards his girls somehow bizarrely overwrote the general themes of the manga.
rebecca wants to go at diamante because she thinks that's her duty,not because she wants to…there's a big difference in that, the difference between what you are forced to do by your environment and what's happening right now ,and what you would do if you were free to do what you want.
You talk about agency..but the fact is..rebecca has never had agency for most of her life. All she did,from running away as an orphan with mr soldier,to train to be able to fend for herself,to be a gladiator in the colosseum,it was never because she wanted to,it was either for survival ,or because she thought it was her duty. Same goes for going against doflamingo...it was not because of a will to harm,but because doffy was going after luffy. Your problem would make sense if rebecca was violent from the beginning,and kyros tachings tried to change that,but it's not what rebecca is..the moment mr soldier told her he was teaching her to fend for herself,her FIRST THOUGHT was that hurting people was wrong....she brought a blunt sword to a fight to the death for god's sake..if that's not the indication of a character struggling between her duty and what she would want to do if she had the choice,i don't know what it is. -
@Daz:
Why not? "Hormones!" is not a valid answer since Oda is in complete godlike control of the characters. So if you repeat the points I listed and flip the gender, why should things play out differently?
i'm tagging out for the rest of the debate,because as Franky Tank said everyone's opinions on dressrosa are likely not going to change and i see no point in keep debating as there is no way opinions on this are gonna get reconciled,but in the end the main problem is there are no strong female leads,and rebecca naturally becomes the mascot for that problem,i feel.
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@Daz:
This is another debate entirely but in retrospect, even though I love the Arlong arc to bits, it is kinda annoying how Nami shows up at Arlong Park, announces that she will kill Arlong, and then proceeds to stand around as a spectator for the rest of the finale. I get that its about lifting the burden off her, but every new crewmember needed assistance like that, and still got to help save themselves at least a little.
the two only SHs who haven't done anything (didn't fight) in their respective arc are Robin and Nami. And this is because they are female characters.
i'm tagging out for the rest of the debate,because as Franky Tank said everyone's opinions on dressrosa are likely not going to change and i see no point in keep debating as there is no way opinions on this are gonna get reconciled,
but… debates don't have to conclude with two parties agreeing. just about sharing their views.
but in the end the main problem is there are no strong female leads,and rebecca naturally becomes the mascot for that problem,i feel.
yes, there aren't.
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@John:
but… debates don't have to conclude with two parties agreeing. just about sharing their views.
yes, there aren't.?
don't know why you quote me when you are basically saying the same thing i am -
That position in their crews doesn't make them compatible opponents. Navigation hardly influences in a fight.
We're sure that Usopp will fight Van Augur because they are snipers, or Zoro against Shiliew because they are swordsman, so I relied on their role in the crew. I suppose you are right, navigation doesn't influence a lot. But I think Lafitte and Doc Q are the weakest of Blackbeard's pirates so Nami can fight one of these two.
So what?
Yeah, Jinbe vs Vasco was just a weird prediction.
Franky with or without the Shogun would mean no shit if we are talking about sizes.
Well, as Count Mario said, perhaps Franky will modify Sunny to make it a robot or something. I'd really like that Franky builds a new Shogun or a giant robot. I'm sure that Franky will improve his engineering skills in order to be able to create new vehicles and stuff for Sunny.
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Alright lads, I'mma say it: Sabo.
He is just some Ace clone, same hair style, same 'older brother' role, works under some big don, same POWER!
Multiply that to the whole 'soz luffy i woulda fought @ marineford bt i only jst remembered abt u guys' just makes me feel as though the kid was pulled out of the woodwork to fulfill Ace's role, only so that Ace could die for the emotional plot reasons.
Now, I have no problem with Ace's death because of this, it was a significant point in Luffy's development; however, Sabo is just a case of 'having your cake and eating it', which you just can't do.
oh no, wait, he's got a scar and ace had freckles.
and yeah, I know the whole crossed out s thing on Ace's tattoo was some foreshadowing of someone was a name beginning with s, but sabo, the character, is a tiresome reincarnation.
Also, I know a lot of people have said this, but, the wider riku family storyline, inc. SOP, was a waste of valuable page space. Didn't think it necessary for Luffy to find a valid reason (in the form of Rebecca & co.) to fight off Doflamingo - the dude was a prick and needed to get some gear 4th treatment, regardless. Just think of how highly dressrosa would be held without that massive pile of yawn.
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@John:
the two only SHs who haven't done anything (didn't fight) in their respective arc are Robin and Nami. And this is because they are female characters.
Robin fared better in that regard than Nami. She repeatedly tried escaping Spandam despite insane levels of abuse, she actively fought off the Marine Captains despite being faced with a traumatic Buster Call, and recovered Luffys immoveable body after his fight with Lucci. She didn't get a 1 on 1 fight, but still got to actively contribute to resolving the situation, and even if it didn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things, at least she got a bit of personal catharsis against Spandam (twice).
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@John:
the two only SHs who haven't done anything (didn't fight) in their respective arc are Robin and Nami. And this is because they are female characters.
Oh fuck right off with that shit. One Piece and Oda aren't sexist, there are reasons why they didn't fight and if you even remembered a tiny bit of those arcs you would know that.
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The only thing that i can really recall that i still think was a waste was the zombie generals.
Most other things that i found annoying more or less felt less so when i read it in one sitting.
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Multiply that to the whole 'soz luffy i woulda fought @ marineford bt i only jst remembered abt u guys' just makes me feel as though the kid was pulled out of the woodwork to fulfill Ace's role, only so that Ace could die for the emotional plot reasons.
indeed, it seems like huge bullshitting when Sabo see Ace's bounty just after he died… like, he didn't know the WG was going on war against WB's pirates and all. Same goes for Luffy, he wrecked Ennies Lobby with his crew and the first commander of the Revos doesn't even know about it ?
And Sabo's not like Luffy, he's very likely AT LEAST reading the newspaper. He wants to smash down the WG and doesn't know about a kid who destroyed Enies Lobby ? He doesn't know why WB is gonna start a war against the Marines ?
Also. It's a pity that the Revos didn't try to do anything against the Marines or the WG while WB's pirates were fighting the Marines.
A marine reporting to a vice-admiral or anyone that Dragon DID SOMETHING. Took the opportunity to DO SOMETHING while all the admirals and almost every vice-admirals were in Marineford. You know, like Kaidou did...BUT, maybe they weren't as strong as they're now (two years after). well, even though they weren't, they could have done SOMETHING and that would have been better storytelling than "oh yeah, didn't see your bounties before, lol, sorry."
Oh fuck right off with that shit. One Piece and Oda aren't sexist, there are reasons why they didn't fight and if you even remembered a tiny bit of those arcs you would know that.
yeah, you're completely ass-pulling this.
also, this is "taboo" to talk about sexism in OP since there are these people that don't know shit about feminism and just the others who would feel offended, like "hey, if you say this manga is sexist, you mean I am too ? oh no, screw you. "Hope Carrot won't fall in love with someone or whatever.
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i agree about sabo. it would have been a lot better if he didn't return in the story. it makes ace's death pointless because luffy still have that overprotective brother around him.
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Ace death can never be a waste, because his death meant that there is no more Poochie.
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Ace death can never be a waste, because his death meant that there is no more Poochie.
So if Ace is Poochie, who is Itchy and who is Scratchie? Also, does that mean in some way Ace is also Homer Simpson?
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Alright lads, I'mma say it: Sabo.
He is just some Ace clone, same hair style, same 'older brother' role, works under some big don, same POWER!
Multiply that to the whole 'soz luffy i woulda fought @ marineford bt i only jst remembered abt u guys' just makes me feel as though the kid was pulled out of the woodwork to fulfill Ace's role, only so that Ace could die for the emotional plot reasons.
Now, I have no problem with Ace's death because of this, it was a significant point in Luffy's development; however, Sabo is just a case of 'having your cake and eating it', which you just can't do.
oh no, wait, he's got a scar and ace had freckles.
and yeah, I know the whole crossed out s thing on Ace's tattoo was some foreshadowing of someone was a name beginning with s, but sabo, the character, is a tiresome reincarnation.
I agree. I still have my doubts that Oda actually choosed to introduce him because he liked the character, and not just fon fanservice.
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@The:
So if Ace is Poochie, who is Itchy and who is Scratchie? Also, does that mean in some way Ace is also Homer Simpson?
Itchy and Scratchy represent the glorified nostalgia of the better OP of yore.
And we the readers are represented by the UFO that beams up and later kills Pooch-ace.
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Itchy and Scratchy represent the glorified nostalgia of the better OP of yore.
And we the readers are represented by the UFO that beams up and later kills Pooch-ace.
If OP were the simpsons it would have fell off after season 10, which is thriller bark… Also seasons 6-10 are thought of as the best ( in OP terms skypiea to thriller bark ) maybe it did :ninja:
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Oh fuck right off with that shit. One Piece and Oda aren't sexist, there are reasons why they didn't fight and if you even remembered a tiny bit of those arcs you would know that.
Whether there was reason or motivation for a certain character to not fight is irrelevant. I liked Rebecca's story arc and don't mind the whole pacificsm aspect at all because that is a specific character trait. However, there is obviously a problem with how Female characters don't get a chance to shine in fights in this series.
If I was to really think about it, there are very few fights which a Female character was not only prominent but actually did something. The only good ones I can think of are the two Alabasta fights, with Ms. Merry Christmas and the one Nami fought (I forget what her code name was at the moment). In the former she was a threat and wasn't an absolute joke character, and in the latter Nami did get punctured a number times that it was kind of brutal. Even then, you never get an outright fight where any female character gets as beat up as a male character. Especially in the new world this is supposed to be a harsh world where people will beat the crap out of you if you cross their path, and any kind of person has the potential to be the strongest out there. For some reason though, pretty much all the female fights are not physical.
Here's a list of some of the various female fights and think about how it compares to the male fights.
Nami v Kalifa: Basically pure fan service. Sure, one could admit there had to be strategy involved, but Kalifa was known to be an assassin of sorts and instead of a physical fight she just rubs Nami until Nami gets the one opening to win. The rest of the fights were mano a mano with it taking many hits to take someone down.
Perona v Usopp: A gag fight and while I like it and makes sense in context it was one of the last actual female fights we saw pre-time skip
Luffy and the Hancock sisters: A tribe of female warriors and nothing physical really happened. Extend to Boa who is the strongest and in the war she does little to show her physical skills or even getting hurt in some capacity, in a war where people are being brutally beaten all over the place.
Tashigi and Zoro v Monet: Tashigi gets hurt a little, then Zoro just uses fear to win. An interesting approach, but not doing any favors for the female battle statistics.
Baby 5 v Franky, Nami, and Sai. Gets taken out by one lightning bolt, then the other time she gets engaged and doesn't do anything. After a second read through her second battle bothered me a bit more, and it kind of disturbs me on some levels.
Usopp v Sugar: No denying that the sniping moment was great, but another female in an arc that is taken out comedically.
Not only is there a problem with how the fights go, but those are pretty much all the major female fights in this series. In the end fights aren't the most important part of the series, but it's still a major part that has lead to great emotional moments and character growth. The fact that Oda can't make a even a decent female fight in a series where biology doesn't make much a difference in fighting power is a problem. There's also the problem of late that female characters in general have been shown to be overall more helpless compared to male characters. That's why many have gotten behind Carrot because she's been shown to be more competent in fighting and other aspects compared to a number of others in the series.
Disclaimer: My memory of some of these events are hazy (mainly the Amazon Lilly stuff), so if I was wrong on any account I can accept that. Still, even if a few of my examples are wrong it still doesn't dismiss the overall problem.
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@John:
indeed, it seems like huge bullshitting when Sabo see Ace's bounty just after he died… like, he didn't know the WG was going on war against WB's pirates and all. Same goes for Luffy, he wrecked Ennies Lobby with his crew and the first commander of the Revos doesn't even know about it ?
And Sabo's not like Luffy, he's very likely AT LEAST reading the newspaper. He wants to smash down the WG and doesn't know about a kid who destroyed Enies Lobby ? He doesn't know why WB is gonna start a war against the Marines ?
Also. It's a pity that the Revos didn't try to do anything against the Marines or the WG while WB's pirates were fighting the Marines.
A marine reporting to a vice-admiral or anyone that Dragon DID SOMETHING. Took the opportunity to DO SOMETHING while all the admirals and almost every vice-admirals were in Marineford. You know, like Kaidou did...BUT, maybe they weren't as strong as they're now (two years after). well, even though they weren't, they could have done SOMETHING and that would have been better storytelling than "oh yeah, didn't see your bounties before, lol, sorry."
Exactly. Both pirates were doing a pretty good job at throwing their names about the place. BUT you're right, there was little Oda could do with Sabo and the whole MF saga, other than, y'know, not include him in the storyline or whatever. Or he was imprisoned, but then he'd be at Impel Down. Oh! I don't know, he just seems like he was never supposedta be in the script until Oda wrote the chapter directly following Ace's death, thinking: 'Oh my me, what have I done?! Who's gonna' jump in at the last moment and pull Luffy out of scrape X, Y, or Z?'
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@Kaido:
Criticism of literary works such as this is pretty much subjective. One can like something in One Piece and another can dislike it equally.
So is praise of them or even simply discussing them; yet no one seems to have problem with it. Hell, there is a whole forum dedicated to subjective discussion about One Piece.
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@The:
Nami v Kalifa: Basically pure fan service. Sure, one could admit there had to be strategy involved, but Kalifa was known to be an assassin of sorts and instead of a physical fight she just rubs Nami until Nami gets the one opening to win. The rest of the fights were mano a mano with it taking many hits to take someone down.
yeah,nami vs kalifa was iffy but you know it had some cool elements.Basically it was where we saw nami's most advanced tricks and moves,and which basically fleshed out nami's fighting style.
but still kalifa is completely nerfed here,and even if she was overconfident it was still too much,compared to how strong she is elsewhereLuffy and the Hancock sisters: A tribe of female warriors and nothing physical really happened. Extend to Boa who is the strongest and in the war she does little to show her physical skills or even getting hurt in some capacity, in a war where people are being brutally beaten all over the place.
though i somewhat agree that hancock hasn't gotten enough screentime and her power hasn't been showcased even though she has coc,we did get a straight out match between luffy and the boa sisters
also,speaking of good female fights,you are forgetting robin.she got some stuff in alabasta,and there was also her fight in skypiea which was pretty good.
nami also got a small amount of skirmishes in skypiea,where we also get her deflecting a direct attack from enel himself,though not a proper 1-on-1.
in the end though,i agree that there have been very few satisfying female fights.
not to mention most of the Female DF's are just weird and not meant for physical fights -
pointed that rebecca had basically zero impact in taking down diamante other than being saved,so i don't know why she should feel any "damaged" or "burdened" by diamante's defeat,again the point has never been "violence is wrong",onepiece is a battle manga,it would be absurd to state in such absolute terms that. the point has been "i want you to live your life how you want it,and now i finally can do something about that". It's about the love of a father for her daughter,not about pacifism..
After a page specifically adressing Rebeccas non-lethal fighting style and its reception in the Coliseum Kyros' speech is thus:
"You've never hurt anyone! Even when you were in the Coliseum, your hands are still Clean! Those hands are the hands Scarlet left for you! Together with a brute like me…so theres no way I'm letting you soil them now! I won't let you lift a sword anymore!"How is that not about pacifism? Add to that the Riku dynastys history as pacifists, and theres painted an extremely clear picture of Rebeccas clean, pacifist hands = Good, which is why it gels so horribly with the manga. “Rebecca, you keep clean, while I get my hands dirty with this AWESOME TWO PAGE SPREAD YEAAAH”
rebecca wants to go at diamante because she thinks that's her duty,not because she wants to…
Where are you getting that she wants to go because its her "duty"? What does that even mean? She clearly wants to go at Diamante because he's a cowardly dickbag, and she screams as much at him.
there's a big difference in that, the difference between what you are forced to do by your environment and what's happening right now ,and what you would do if you were free to do what you want.
Again, this can be applied to virtually every character in the series. Its a meaningless argument. If you "changed the environment and what's happening right now", and "let her be free to do what she wanted", obviously Vivi wouldn't choose to spend her time saving Alabasta.
You talk about agency..but the fact is..rebecca has never had agency for most of her life. All she did,from running away as an orphan with mr soldier,to train to be able to fend for herself,to be a gladiator in the colosseum,it was never because she wanted to,it was either for survival ,or because she thought it was her duty.
Same goes for going against doflamingo…it was not because of a will to harm,but because doffy was going after luffy
Your problem would make sense if rebecca was violent from the beginning,and kyros tachings tried to change that,but it's not what rebecca is..the moment mr soldier told her he was teaching her to fend for herself,her FIRST THOUGHT was that hurting people was wrong....she brought a blunt sword to a fight to the death for god's sake..if that's not the indication of a character struggling between her duty and what she would want to do if she had the choice,i don't know what it is.For crying out loud, she directly states she doesn't just want to endure and survive! She voices her desire to help several times! What would it even matter if it was because of “duty” when Rebecca clearly is emotionally motivated to help? When she enters the tournament, or volunteers to go to the Palace, or heads off for Doflamingo, how is that not agency? Did Vivi not have agency because she acted out of “duty to her country”?
You all keep coming back to the infantilizing message that Rebecca has no clue what she actually wants, that even though she says she wants to help she actually truly really deep down doesn't want to do anything, and her character arc is to realize "Oh! I guess I shouldn't try contributing!". Obviously she would rather not be involved in this debacle, no one friggin would. But she is involved, she wants to help, and the story constantly beats her down for her effort, which is what is so bad.
After an arc full of failures, Rebeccas reward is that other people makes sure she won’t ever face a scenario where she could fail again. Yay? Is that supposed to be an arc? She thought she wanted to help resolve the crisis befalling the nation, but learned that the best thing she could do was sit down and say “Count me out, I don’t like this, you guys deal with it without me”?
In One Piece, of all things, how is that not terrible? -
This thread's turning into "The Official Dressrosa Thead 2.0"
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Doesn't matter how strong Hancock is since she turned into Luffy's bitch. Same as Baby5 with Sai.
This thread's turning into "The Official Dressrosa Thead 2.0"
it doesn't.
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yeah how dare sai show genuine concern for a mentally disturbed person in a blatantly abusive situation
how dare he
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
This thread's turning into "The Official Dressrosa Thead 2.0"
Get used to it because at this rate we will debate about it until Raftel (where the Rikus and all may come back for the occasion and then oh boy).
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yeah,nami vs kalifa was iffy but you know it had some cool elements.Basically it was where we saw nami's most advanced tricks and moves,and which basically fleshed out nami's fighting style.
but still kalifa is completely nerfed here,and even if she was overconfident it was still too much,compared to how strong she is elsewherethough i somewhat agree that hancock hasn't gotten enough screentime and her power hasn't been showcased even though she has coc,we did get a straight out match between luffy and the boa sisters
also,speaking of good female fights,you are forgetting robin.she got some stuff in alabasta,and there was also her fight in skypiea which was pretty good.
nami also got a small amount of skirmishes in skypiea,where we also get her deflecting a direct attack from enel himself,though not a proper 1-on-1.
in the end though,i agree that there have been very few satisfying female fights.
not to mention most of the Female DF's are just weird and not meant for physical fightsI feel like it says a lot about me when I somehow completely forgot about Robins fight in Skypea. This is even worse when it was a great early character moment where we see genuine emotion from her for the first time, and really showed how important history is to her.
yeah how dare sai show genuine concern for a mentally disturbed person in a blatantly abusive situation
how dare he
It was fine that he was disturbed about her situation and thinking it was best for her to not be with them. Heck, that dark turn with her quirk still gets me. It's the fact that he claimed to make her his fiancé knowing that with her disorder she would stick with him and go along with it that is disturbing. If he said "Fine, if I win she will be a part of my crew", then that would be okay. As it stands, it's a bit off putting.
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How dare you criticize One Piece. One Piece is the most perfectest piece of fiction everer. You has no right to be member of forum if disagree otherwise.
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@Daz:
For crying out loud, she directly states she doesn't just want to endure and survive! She voices her desire to help several times! What would it even matter if it was because of “duty” when Rebecca clearly is emotionally motivated to help? When she enters the tournament, or volunteers to go to the Palace, or heads off for Doflamingo, how is that not agency? Did Vivi not have agency because she acted out of “duty to her country”?
where in that panel do you get that she doesn't want to endure and survive,that she wants to help?all she's saying is that she is tired of being surrounded by despair.
"if clinging to a dream that will never come true is my only other option,then i'd rather bet on the opportunity of the tourney".
only thing i can take away from this page is desperation,having no other option but to enter the tournament or else eveyone dies(including herself).
though i do think she said something like wanting to help and not just being protected anymore,i'm just saying it's not this page–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@The:
I feel like it says a lot about me when I somehow completely forgot about Robins fight in Skypea. This is even worse when it was a great early character moment where we see genuine emotion from her for the first time, and really showed how important history is to her.
don't take it too hard,after 800+ chapters you are bound to forget stuff
It was fine that he was disturbed about her situation and thinking it was best for her to not be with them. Heck, that dark turn with her quirk still gets me. It's the fact that he claimed to make her his fiancé knowing that with her disorder she would stick with him and go along with it that is disturbing. If he said "Fine, if I win she will be a part of my crew", then that would be okay. As it stands, it's a bit off putting.
but you know,Baby 5 clearly has a need for love and affection,and that's why just putting her as a part of her crew won't work.i mean,you make it sound like he's an asshole who's taking advantage of her,and while yes that could be possible but that's not how it's presented and neither is he presented as a asshole.
basically he's giving her a positive enviornment to be in,so that she can heal her wounds and slowly get emotionally stable,also ensuring no one else like doflamingo and the family(or even worse) can take advantage of her.
he is basically taking responsibility for telling her to go die,which he regrets.i mean,he has to go against his grandfather to accept her,you know?he's a good guy and i think was a nice action.
though,still not helping with great fights with females in them,of course -
@Daz:
After a page specifically adressing Rebeccas non-lethal fighting style and its reception in the Coliseum Kyros' speech is thus:
"You've never hurt anyone! Even when you were in the Coliseum, your hands are still Clean! Those hands are the hands Scarlet left for you! Together with a brute like me…so theres no way I'm letting you soil them now! I won't let you lift a sword anymore!"How is that not about pacifism? Add to that the Riku dynastys history as pacifists, and theres painted an extremely clear picture of Rebeccas clean, pacifist hands = Good, which is why it gels so horribly with the manga. “Rebecca, you keep clean, while I get my hands dirty with this AWESOME TWO PAGE SPREAD YEAAAH”
pacifism is the wat the riku family has decided to live
but the story is about kyros wanting to grant his daughter the freedom to do what she wants,this is not an hymn to pacifism and non-violence,otherwise luffy wouldn't have solved everything in this manga by beating the ever-loved shit out of everyone.if anything,as i said,the pacifists end up appearing a little naive during the whole arc,although it's not spelled clearly.Where are you getting that she wants to go because its her "duty"? What does that even mean? She clearly wants to go at Diamante because he's a cowardly dickbag, and she screams as much at him.
because she has made everything out of obligation,from fighting to the colosseum to learning how to defend herself ..the input has always came from outisde..either mr soldier telling her that she has to learn to fight,to doflamingo putting her in the colosseum,to mr soldier trying his suicide mission against doflamingo and thus making her feel guilty and wanting to not be protected anymore.
Again, this can be applied to virtually every character in the series. Its a meaningless argument. If you "changed the environment and what's happening right now", and "let her be free to do what she wanted", obviously Vivi wouldn't choose to spend her time saving Alabasta.
Not the same thing..vivi choose on her own accord to start the cover operation and infiltrate baroque works..she even drags igaram with her..she had the choice (since you know,being the princess at all she could have made the army deal with the crazy warlord), but choose to fight.
rebecca never had the choice,her choice was "fight or die",her father gave her another potential choice, that she would have chosen wholeheartly if she didn't felt she was her duty to fight because she didn't want people to always protect her,her father basically said her "don't worry,we can handle it"For crying out loud, she directly states she doesn't just want to endure and survive! She voices her desire to help several times! What would it even matter if it was because of “duty” when Rebecca clearly is emotionally motivated to help? When she enters the tournament, or volunteers to go to the Palace, or heads off for Doflamingo, how is that not agency? Did Vivi not have agency because she acted out of “duty to her country”?
You all keep coming back to the infantilizing message that Rebecca has no clue what she actually wants, that even though she says she wants to help she actually truly really deep down doesn't want to do anything, and her character arc is to realize "Oh! I guess I shouldn't try contributing!". Obviously she would rather not be involved in this debacle, no one friggin would. But she is involved, she wants to help, and the story constantly beats her down for her effort, which is what is so bad.
never said that rebecca doesn't know what she wants,she clearly does. I said that she doesn't have the choice to not do it,at first because she can either fight or die,and the other because she would feel guilty to have people protect her all the time,this doesn't change the fact that she is a pacifist at heart and that her father allowing her to follow her ideals it's a noble thing and not some kind of patriarchal veto.
After an arc full of failures, Rebeccas reward is that other people makes sure she won’t ever face a scenario where she could fail again. Yay? Is that supposed to be an arc? She thought she wanted to help resolve the crisis befalling the nation, but learned that the best thing she could do was sit down and say “Count me out, I don’t like this, you guys deal with it without me”?
In One Piece, of all things, how is that not terrible?rebecca didn't really had an arc..she started as a young, brave girl and ended up as a young brave girl. Her character did not really change at all. And you can also say she didn't really took kyros' words into much of a consideration,since the first thing she did once she was separated from him was attacking the big boss of the arc.
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yeah how dare sai show genuine concern for a mentally disturbed person in a blatantly abusive situation
how dare he
All of the lower Doflamingo family officers come from crappy environments and Doffy takes complete advantage of that. Oda says this himself in the SBS. But for some reason, all of those other characters that have lost their homes, their families, and may have good intentions deep down, still get their ass kicked and thrown in prison while Baby 5 walks away unscathed.
