Chapter 767: Cora-san

Light Bro

That doesn't exclude him from being a psychopath at all.
Psychopath is a state of reduced empathy, not lack of. Doflamingo draws a clear borderline where empathy stops, and cares not for those out of the line. This line is true for anyone, but drawing such a tight nit zone and limiting empathy and remorse for all indicates psychopathy.

Psychopath doesn't mean one can't love his mother. If one can only extend his/her empathy to his/her close kinsmen and no one else, then yes, it's a sociopath, and with ruthlessness mixed in, a clear sign of psychopath.

Well everything I've ever read about psychopathy said that means a complete lack of empathy and love. Some of them said that sociopaths may have some, if reduced capacity for that. But then again they were mostly net sources…

Either way real world psychology shouldn't be taked too seriously in fiction, just like with other sciences! Character's personalities and traits are just what they need to be to serve their role. We may try make diagnozes of their psyche, but they don't really mean anything unless the author meant the same thing. I doubt Oda wanted his villains explicitly to portray sociopathy. They just needed to be despicable bad guys for Luffy to take down.

Maju

@BernieCrane:

Someone on reddit seems to have figured it out:

hmm..it's possible,only thing it sounds forced it's the ten at the end

Darth

@Light:

I thought we both agreed that Doffy isn't a psychopath. He does care of his crew, twisted as his caring is.

A) There are various degrees of psychopathy. Not to mention that to the outside world, most psychopaths look like completly normal, nice people. There are long periods of calm when it comes to psychotic behavior, during which you would not be able to say with certainty that a person is a psychopath.

B) The entire conversation between Law and Rocinante, the first one, just screams that the entire thing is a facade for Doflamingo.

Maju

@Aohige_AP:

That doesn't exclude him from being a psychopath at all.
Psychopath is a state of reduced empathy, not lack of. Doflamingo draws a clear borderline where empathy stops, and cares not for those out of the line. This line is true for anyone, but drawing such a tight nit zone and limiting empathy and remorse for all indicates psychopathy.

Psychopath doesn't mean one can't love his mother. If one can only extend his/her empathy to his/her close kinsmen and no one else, then yes, it's a sociopath, and with ruthlessness mixed in, a clear sign of psychopath.

actually,doflamingo remembers me very much of Richard "iceman" kuklinski..the famous mafia hitman.
he killed hundreds of man,never showing any kind of empathy or remorse about what he was doing…and this remained true till his death.
according to one psychologist,this was due to the presence of two mental disorders at the same time..one anti-social (basically the lack of empathy and/or a conscience),and a paranoid disorder,who made him unable to forgive and prone to get revenge at all costs if someone got on his nerves (he killed several people just because he was mad at them since he was a teenager)
Also,according to him,the only thing he ever cared about was his family (wife and 3 children)
also,for that same psychologist,part of this was due to genetics,and part due to how his father and mother raised him.

it's probably just a coincidence though

MarquesaIV

@Darth:

A) There are various degrees of psychopathy. Not to mention that to the outside world, most psychopaths look like completly normal, nice people. There are long periods of calm when it comes to psychotic behavior, during which you would not be able to say with certainty that a person is a psychopath.

B) The entire conversation between Law and Rocinante, the first one, just screams that the entire thing is a facade for Doflamingo.

You mean this?

!
I mostly agree with you kind sir.

MetaMario

@MarquesaIV:

You mean this?

!
I mostly agree with you kind sir.

Off-topic but I'm surprised your avatar made it under the forum's PG-13 rating.

TheGreatestSwordsman

@valiantt:

Because there's absolutely NO point in killing him. Give me one "GOOD" reason why killing off Doflamingo would be a good direction. I have yet to hear how a dead flamingo could lead to a lot of ripe plot/character opportunities (as well as the complete absence of ANY foreshadowing or thematic connections that would lead to it).

By this logic, no one should ever die because of the opportunities that could lead into the future. Shakespeare was doing it wrong all this time it seems.

Razh

@Light:

I thought we both agreed that Doffy isn't a psychopath. He does care of his crew, twisted as his caring is.

As it was written before, he can still be a psychopath. But I don't think I'd go that far. By that logic, you could call each of CD a psychopath and they are probably not. Just raised in different (extreme) circumstances. We had a lot of examples in our rich history.

As for Dofla, he ultimately cares for himself above everyone else. I'm having trouble imagining Luffy asking Zoro or Nami to die for him. Or anyone outside his crew, for that matter.
Fact that Dofla was sad when he ordered Monet to kill herself and Vergo doesn't change that fact. A captain who really held his crew above everything else would find another way.

desa

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

By this logic, no one should ever die because of the opportunities that could lead into the future. Shakespeare was doing it wrong all this time it seems.

Isn't Shakespeare all about killing his main characters?

TheGreatestSwordsman

@desa:

Isn't Shakespeare all about killing his main characters?

Hence the reference.

King Cannon

@maxterdexter:

You know that these phrases lack context don't you? The weak can't decide where they die has to be something that Doflamingo said in the past, by the way that it's set up.

The only thing that was explored was.. the lead bullets, topic that I used as an example on how to give context to the things that needed it.

They don't lack context at all. "The weak can't pick their way of death" gained context some chapters ago when Doula said it (it was contextless at PH).

But really, Law won't be meeting the Donquixote Pirates again during this flashback. The last page is pretty much symbolic of that, with Law's sillhouette walking in the opposite direction from the DP's sillhouettes and Rosinante's entire dying speech.

Dohs

@Razh:

First 3 panels.

http://readms.com/r/one_piece/767/2601/7

Thanks. So then he got captured and got mistaken with Law. Great backstory from Oda, mixing two supernovas in the same time, yet they didn't meet. :)

sabinis

@King:

They don't lack context at all. "The weak can't pick their way of death" gained context some chapters ago when Doula said it (it was contextless at PH).

But really, Law won't be meeting the Donquixote Pirates again during this flashback. The last page is pretty much symbolic of that, with Law's sillhouette walking in the opposite direction from the DP's sillhouettes and Rosinante's entire dying speech.

Why you deny so much that some people see lack of context for some lines? Or what we gotten doesnt feel like what we expected?
You already explained your point over and over, cant you just accept different expectations and waiting for next chapter to possibly clear things up?
Most of us here reads One Piece for years and we are used to most of lines like those being explained in bit more satisfying way.
Either it will be slight dissapointment or we will be right expecting more.

Also Law doesnt need to meet with Doflamingo to have conversation with him.

King Cannon

@sabinis:

Why you deny so much that some people see lack of context for some lines? Or what we gotten doesnt feel like what we expected?
You already explained your point over and over, cant you just accept different expectations and waiting for next chapter to possibly clear things up?
Most of us here reads One Piece for years and we are used to most of lines like those being explained in bit more satisfying way.
Either it will be slight dissapointment or we will be right expecting more.

Also Law doesnt need to meet with Doflamingo to have conversation with him.

If the problem is expectations, then that seems more like your problem.

Everything pretty much already fits. It certainly doesn't makes sense for Law to return to the Donquixote Pirates when you consider everything Rosinante did in this chapter and the last page. Your expectations are pretty much going against what's being written.

Razh

@Dohs:

Thanks. So then he got captured and got mistaken with Law. Great backstory from Oda, mixing two supernovas in the same time, yet they didn't meet. :)

Yeah, it was a nice detail. Neither of them will ever be aware of how Drake affected Law's life and maybe even the fate of the world.

MarquesaIV

@MetaMario:

Off-topic but I'm surprised your avatar made it under the forum's PG-13 rating.

I am truly sorry if my avatar offends anyone. I just find the depiction artistically amusing.

@Razh:

As it was written before, he can still be a psychopath. But I don't think I'd go that far. By that logic, you could call each of CD a psychopath and they are probably not. Just raised in different (extreme) circumstances. We had a lot of examples in our rich history.

As for Dofla, he ultimately cares for himself above everyone else. I'm having trouble imagining Luffy asking Zoro or Nami to die for him. Or anyone outside his crew, for that matter.
Fact that Dofla was sad when he ordered Monet to kill herself and Vergo doesn't change that fact. A captain who really held his crew above everything else would find another way.

Doflamingo places himeself above all others. There is no one he'd be willing to die for, but he is perfectly willing to ask others to die for him (Quoted from Super Angillis, Manga Helpers). It's understandable If the relationship was fully mutual, however that is not the case regarding the relationships Doflamingo is involved in.

DollarScholar

This widespread idea that psychopaths are inherently evil individuals incapable of feeling empathy, remorse or compassion is completely false, even unrealistic.

Shadowgreed

@sabinis:

Why you deny so much that some people see lack of context for some lines? Or what we gotten doesnt feel like what we expected?
You already explained your point over and over, cant you just accept different expectations and waiting for next chapter to possibly clear things up?
Most of us here reads One Piece for years and we are used to most of lines like those being explained in bit more satisfying way.
Either it will be slight dissapointment or we will be right expecting more.

Also Law doesnt need to meet with Doflamingo to have conversation with him.

I'm with KC on this one. I don't know what you guys expect explanation for, this line "the weak can't choose the way they die", why does that line needs a panel of Dofla teaching it to Law when we already know that Law lived and raid with him for 2 1/2 years, the only reason the lead bullets had an explanation was because it was important to the story and not some random catch phrase.

Razh

@MarquesaIV:

Doflamingo places himeself above all others. There is no one he'd be willing to die for, but he is perfectly willing to ask others to die for him (Quoted from Super Angillis, Manga Helpers).

Barely even visit OP thread there. Nice to see there are people who think the same.

Fraco

Like the old wendy rene song.. after laughter come tears

!

MajinArekkusu

@MarquesaIV:

I am truly sorry if my avatar offends anyone. I just find the depiction artistically amusing.

Well considering we have seen nami, robin and boa in such situations before in the actual manga, and there isn't really anything visible, I think it's totally okay.^^

kravenheart

Okay, so I know most will disagree with me, but I totally think Corazon is still alive.

Look at all the other characters that have survived impossible situations, believed to be dead, then showed up again. Heck, people still argue that Monet is alive, and she got stabbed through the heart!

In One Piece, if there is not a grave with a body in it, then the character is still alive. Sometimes not even then. (Zombies)

Darth

@kravenheart:

Okay, so I know most will disagree with me, but I totally think Corazon is still alive.

Look at all the other characters that have survived impossible situations, believed to be dead, then showed up again. Heck, people still argue that Monet is alive, and she got stabbed through the heart!

In One Piece, if there is not a grave with a body in it, then the character is still alive. Sometimes not even then. (Zombies)

Then why didn't he contact Law for the last decade or so?

Also, Flashback character don't get plot-shield that would help them when it comes to dying.

RobZilla

@kravenheart:

Okay, so I know most will disagree with me, but I totally think Corazon is still alive.

Look at all the other characters that have survived impossible situations, believed to be dead, then showed up again. Heck, people still argue that Monet is alive, and she got stabbed through the heart!

In One Piece, if there is not a grave with a body in it, then the character is still alive. Sometimes not even then. (Zombies)

Generally when we see characters die in flashbacks, they stay dead.

BernieCrane

@Maju:

hmm..it's possible,only thing it sounds forced it's the ten at the end

Aohige confirms it in this post:http://www.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=42041&p=3360410&viewfull=1#post3360410

Fraco

@MarquesaIV:

I am truly sorry if my avatar offends anyone. I just find the depiction artistically amusing.

don't change it please, bad taste and uglyness of some other avatars is way more offending:ninja:

cpuguy18

wow this chapter was dark doflamingo kills his father and brother in the same chapter brutal.

Fraco

on the other part, I don't think law is going to die, nor that cora is alive.

for mingo I'm still uncertain, must be said that without dressrosa as the underground base, smile factory and war trades port, without vergo inside the marines and other officers, without his warlord title, he'll be one of the (few but still) bunch out there

MarquesaIV

@MajinArekkusu:

Well considering we have seen nami, robin and boa in such situations before in the actual manga, and there isn't really anything visible, I think it's totally okay.^^

@Fraco:

don't change it please, bad taste and uglyness of some other avatars is way more offending:ninja:

Very much appreciated.

BlueOGRE

@Fraco:

don't change it please, bad taste and uglyness of some other avatars is way more offending:ninja:

did someone say ugly?

Razh

@BlueOGRE:

did someone say ugly?

At least you chose the before image. After is the true ugly.

Underworld1991

@superv:

doflamingo is a very dangerous guy to keep alive, so im guessing he's either gonna get arrested by the marines and sent to a dungeon where no one can hear him, or he's gonna get killed by CP0 to keep him from talking about the secrets of tenryobo.

Maybe Burgess helps him escape because Blackbeard wants something from Doflamingo.

Shadowgreed

@Underworld1991:

Maybe Burgess helps him escape because Blackbeard wants something from Doflamingo.

Hum !!!

kravenheart

@Darth:

Then why didn't he contact Law for the last decade or so?

Also, Flashback character don't get plot-shield that would help them when it comes to dying.

For the same reason that Sabo never contacted Ace or Luffy…the plot required his survival to be a surprise.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@RobZilla:

Generally when we see characters die in flashbacks, they stay dead.

Not always. Look at Sabo. There is another example, but i can't think of it right now.

Ouroboros

Except Sabo was all but flat out stated to be alive, so not really a great example there.

Shadowgreed

@kravenheart:

For the same reason that Sabo never contacted Ace or Luffy…the plot required his survival to be a surprise.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Not always. Look at Sabo. There is another example, but i can't think of it right now.

This snowy soundless dead ain't getting any sound buddy

Cyan D. Funk

@RobZilla:

Generally when we see characters die in flashbacks, they stay dead.

And 3, 2, 1….
@kravenheart:

Not always. Look at Sabo. There is another example, but i can't think of it right now.

Only a moron would think that Sabo actually died in the flashback.

Dragon rescues him at the end leaving no doubts that he survived.

Galaxy 9000

@Cyan:

Dragon rescues him at the end leaving no doubts that he survived.

But but, it could've been Bluejam!

(No idea if that was ever spouted out here, but I've definitely seen it before from those that used to deny him being alive.)

Darth

But you know what's truly sad?

We have all those people with vengeances and grudges against Doflamingo, connections to him, build to be in conflict with him.

And the one to beat him will still be Luffy.

Sigh I hate Shonen tropes.

Fraco

@BlueOGRE:

did someone say ugly?

that's a nice good one. lol

Shadowgreed

@Darth:

But you know what's truly sad?

We have all those people with vengeances and grudges against Doflamingo, connections to him, build to be in conflict with him.

And the one to beat him will still be Luffy.

Sigh I hate Shonen tropes.

Yeah, why don't they send Tsoru to deal with Dofla.

Gosh Oda don't let the main character hug the glory.

Darth

@Shadowgreed:

Yeah, why don't they send Tsoru to deal with Dofla.

Gosh Oda don't let the main character hug the glory.

That is a Shonen specific trope and you know it.

Luffy will fight and beat arc antagonist because he is main character. Fine. But don't ask me to consider that an example of good storytelling solely because Luffy is a main character. That does not mean he needs to be personaly responsible for every noteworthy event in the manga.

Or that I have to consider it excellent solely because "Duh, Luffy is main character". I know that. But as of right now, he has about as much connection to him as a rubber bullet. Fight might be interesting on level of choreography, but on level of personalities, it is nothing that hasn't been done before, or even worse than that, because I don't recall an arc where Straw Hats and Luffy personaly had so little to do with the main villain in the history of the manga.

Rant over.

TheGreatestSwordsman

@Darth:

That is a Shonen specific trope and you know it.

Luffy will fight and beat arc antagonist because he is main character. Fine. But don't ask me to consider that an example of good storytelling solely because Luffy is a main character. That does not mean he needs to be personaly responsible for every noteworthy event in the manga.

Or that I have to consider it excellent solely because "Duh, Luffy is main character". I know that. But as of right now, he has about as much connection to him as a rubber bullet. Fight might be interesting on level of choreography, but on level of personalities, it is nothing that hasn't been done before, or even worse than that, because I don't recall an arc where Straw Hats and Luffy personaly had so little to do with the main villain in the history of the manga.

Rant over.

I agree with you. To me the biggest disappointment will be if Luffy throws the final punch to take down Doflamingo this arc, moreso than Ussop taking down Sugar the first time. It would be interesting if Law threw the final punch and either he or Kaido were to kill Doflamingo by the end arc but again, I expect neither event to happen.

PhoenixBoosh

That's why Oda gave Doflamingo string clones.

Galaxy 9000

@Darth:

That is a Shonen specific trope and you know it.

Luffy will fight and beat arc antagonist because he is main character. Fine. But don't ask me to consider that an example of good storytelling solely because Luffy is a main character. That does not mean he needs to be personaly responsible for every noteworthy event in the manga.

Or that I have to consider it excellent solely because "Duh, Luffy is main character". I know that. But as of right now, he has about as much connection to him as a rubber bullet. Fight might be interesting on level of choreography, but on level of personalities, it is nothing that hasn't been done before, or even worse than that, because I don't recall an arc where Straw Hats and Luffy personaly had so little to do with the main villain in the history of the manga.

Rant over.

It's a Shonen manga, and you acknowledge that yourself. Don't know why you would expect it not to follow some of the tropes contained within the genre.

Luffy and the Straw hats are involved with most of the events because it's important for it to be seen with those character's perspectives in mind.

We've got the entire Whitebeard War already where Luffy wasn't responsible for the defeat of any major antagonist. Yes, he was involved in the events, but the break in to Impel Down was the only one that was caused specifically by him.

Maybe there's a little less personal motivation than normal… but it's definitely growing. We've got Luffy's interactions with Rebecca driving him, his friendship with Law (remember his reaction to Law's shooting), and more recently, Doflamingo's treatment of Bellamy). There's more... but the motivation and connection is definitely there.

Doffy. D Evil

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

I agree with you. To me the biggest disappointment will be if Luffy throws the final punch to take down Doflamingo this arc, moreso than Ussop taking down Sugar the first time. It would be interesting if Law threw the final punch and either he or Kaido were to kill Doflamingo by the end arc but again, I expect neither event to happen.

Law fangirls sure do like to overrate his role in the story . Not that i am particularly surprised or anything . Also lol @ Law killing Doffy when Doffy role in the story seems to be far more important than Law's .

ARTEMlS

About Mingo's fate, I think he's a very forgettable villain who no one will remember afterwards - if you know what I mean.

Doffy. D Evil

@Darth:

That is a Shonen specific trope and you know it.

Luffy will fight and beat arc antagonist because he is main character. Fine. But don't ask me to consider that an example of good storytelling solely because Luffy is a main character. That does not mean he needs to be personaly responsible for every noteworthy event in the manga.

Or that I have to consider it excellent solely because "Duh, Luffy is main character". I know that. But as of right now, he has about as much connection to him as a rubber bullet. Fight might be interesting on level of choreography, but on level of personalities, it is nothing that hasn't been done before, or even worse than that, because I don't recall an arc where Straw Hats and Luffy personaly had so little to do with the main villain in the history of the manga.

Rant over.

Yea lets put some random marine to beat Doffy because that would be such good storytelling …...............for you ,that is.

Dohs

Hello everybody, Im Tsuru. Step aside Straw-Hat! I will be ending Doffla right now!

Hanz

Crocodile, Enel, Hody Jones and many other villains deserved to be beaten by the poeple who have a grudge against them, question is: could they beat them?
so far the only character who may be capable of defeating dofa is law and that won't happen if he doesn't get rid of terbol first.