Not forum. Comments section.
http://www.animeplus.tv/hunter-x-hunter-2011-episode-113
I haven't see so many idiots since NarutoFan…
Not forum. Comments section.
http://www.animeplus.tv/hunter-x-hunter-2011-episode-113
I haven't see so many idiots since NarutoFan…
@Holy:
And this time it's on Robby to order the pizza if we make it
where's the pizza robby
I guess I'm the only one who found the narration to not just be a bunch of text and a poetic way of telling the story of the invasion. Maybe it's also because I've been a lot of older comics which use this same type of narration to let you get into the thoughts of the characters and do a lot of things just seeing them won't (remember how the anime took out the fact that Pitou didn't know why she was crying and that's why she looked so weird while doing it? The scene was beautiful but her crying just came off as weird looking and out of place without the narration of "Pitou had no idea why these wet things were coming out of her face".) I found it to be an excellent way to give off knowledge the characters themselves couldn't give us and just an excellent way to show off the epicness and high stakes of the arc.
I hope the final arc of the series (whenever it continues and that happens) does this as well.
@RobbyBevard:
Can go the dragonball "5 minutes" route. Say it takes place in a short amount of time when it clearly doesn't. Or just say "screw it" and have the raid take 20 minutes instead of 20 seconds. Its cool to say that a ridiculous amount of things happened in an extremely short amount of time, but at some point there's a threshhold.
Animate what's going on in the character's heads in some creative way. Show them considering possibilities or use metaphor.
There's other options besides using a slow-motion slide show with heavy narration.
What works in one medium (and it barely worked in the manga) doesn't always translate into another.
I was thinking along the lines of actually choreographing original fight material.
Episode 112 looked like the only reference for it was the manga. Which is like saying the only reference is a light novel transcript, because the manga chapter was just words words words. It's not like it's impossible to transform prose-heavy narration into animation (like Katanagatari) but that episode shouldn't have dwelled on it anymore than was necessary to describe the character psychology (like Shoot's).
I guess I'm the only one who found the narration to not just be a bunch of text and a poetic way of telling the story of the invasion. Maybe it's also because I've been a lot of older comics which use this same type of narration to let you get into the thoughts of the characters and do a lot of things just seeing them won't (remember how the anime took out the fact that Pitou didn't know why she was crying and that's why she looked so weird while doing it? The scene was beautiful but her crying just came off as weird looking and out of place without the narration of "Pitou had no idea why these wet things were coming out of her face".) I found it to be an excellent way to give off knowledge the characters themselves couldn't give us and just an excellent way to show off the epicness and high stakes of the arc.
I hope the final arc of the series (whenever it continues and that happens) does this as well.
The problem with this logic is it comes across as apologism.
Togashi wrote the chapter like that because he was physically unable to draw it properly. If he could have drawn it, he would have, but he couldn't. Thinking he did a good job is fine, but implying it's better than the intended original path is like saying Togashi has no idea what makes his manga entertaining. Hence, I only see it as fan biasing the end result, not unlike people who think Evangelion's 25/26 were works of genius and not a cop-out from budget implosion.
I didn't like massive text boxes in the manga because manga is a visual medium. Show don't tell. Certainly wouldn't like it in something so purely visual like anime.
Nobodyman, This is just off the top of my head, but as far as a moral compass goes have you considered Morel?
Nobodyman, This is just off the top of my head, but as far as a moral compass goes have you considered Morel?
From what I can remember he was a decent enough guy ethics-wise (and one of the few characters I genuinely liked), but I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at.
From what I can remember he was a decent enough guy ethics-wise (and one of the few characters I genuinely liked), but I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at.
You were just saying that the series lacked a moral compass so…
You were just saying that the series lacked a moral compass so…
I don't think you understood my point. My point is that I feel there is no general sense of morality in the series. Sure, there are a number of characters who I'm okay with on a moral standpoint, in the context of their character types. But then there are other characters whose actions and treatment don't fit the way that I feel they're being portrayed, and thus it creates a moral disconnect for me.
I hope that makes sense.
I don't think you understood my point. My point is that I feel there is no general sense of morality in the series. Sure, there are a number of characters who I'm okay with on a moral standpoint, in the context of their character types. But then there are other characters whose actions and treatment don't fit the way that I feel they're being portrayed, and thus it creates a moral disconnect for me.
I hope that makes sense.
Oh that makes sense. Hunter x Hunter's characters sink very far into grey and it's hardly dwelt on. I never thought it was a really big problem though. It's not like the narrative itself goes out of its way to say how virtuous any given character is (there are a few minor kinks, like Leorio being basically accepting of Killua, but I digress). This is just me, but I thought it was almost immediately evident how messed up basically every character was.
@RobbyBevard:
Can go the dragonball "5 minutes" route. Say it takes place in a short amount of time when it clearly doesn't. Or just say "screw it" and have the raid take 20 minutes instead of 20 seconds. Its cool to say that a ridiculous amount of things happened in an extremely short amount of time, but at some point there's a threshhold.
Animate what's going on in the character's heads in some creative way. Show them considering possibilities or use metaphor.
There's other options besides using a slow-motion slide show with heavy narration.
What works in one medium (and it barely worked in the manga) doesn't always translate into another.
Thought it worked just fine in the manga and they've done a decent job with it in the anime but it would be monotonous if they did it for the next 10 episodes or however long it goes for. They will eventually have to add their own twist to it that doesn't hurt the manga material if they want to keep people's interest. Sadly I don't think they will because Madhouse has always been about being extremely faithful (even if its to a fault) to their adaptions. Its why so many fans bring them up when they mention a studio that doesn't stray from the source material.
Oh that makes sense. Hunter x Hunter's characters sink very far into grey and it's hardly dwelt on. I never thought it was a really big problem though. It's not like the narrative itself goes out of its way to say how virtuous any given character is (there are a few minor kinks, like Leorio being basically accepting of Killua, but I digress). This is just me, but I thought it was almost immediately evident how messed up basically every character was.
For me it is a problem. It makes a lot of the characters unlikeable and some of the plot developments upsetting to me. And maybe I'm just slow on the uptake, but I always thought Togashi was trying to portray Gon as the noble goofy hero, at least until the Chimera Ant arc stuff (also, for Christ's sake, this is a 12-year-old kid).
But apparently a lot of people don't have a problem with this, and that's just fine and dandy.
For me it is a problem. It makes a lot of the characters unlikeable and some of the plot developments upsetting to me. And maybe I'm just slow on the uptake, but I always thought Togashi was trying to portray Gon as the noble goofy hero, at least until the Chimera Ant arc stuff (also, for Christ's sake, this is a 12-year-old kid).
But apparently a lot of people don't have a problem with this, and that's just fine and dandy.
I had a serious problem with how non chalant everyone was about Killua killing folks and I kept waiting for him killing those two dudes randomly to show up again but it never dis and still bothers me but I've came to terms by now with the type of world that is and the morality that guides it. You get a really good sense at what the Hunters view as positive traits during the election and even then individual hunters who have qualities they disapprove if can still function in that realm. The whole world is just messed up basically.
Also Him was neeeeeeeeeeeveeeeeeer the goofy shonen protagonist really. Remember him letting the two mass murderers go?
Also Him was neeeeeeeeeeeveeeeeeer the goofy shonen protagonist really. Remember him letting the two mass murderers go?
I'm sorry, how did he enter this conversation?
I'm sorry, how did he enter this conversation?
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120225012842/powerpuff/images/d/d9/Him_has_a_paln.jpg
I guess my tablets autocorrect likes the power puff girls?
I guess I'm the only one who found the narration to not just be a bunch of text and a poetic way of telling the story of the invasion. Maybe it's also because I've been a lot of older comics which use this same type of narration to let you get into the thoughts of the characters and do a lot of things just seeing them won't (remember how the anime took out the fact that Pitou didn't know why she was crying and that's why she looked so weird while doing it? The scene was beautiful but her crying just came off as weird looking and out of place without the narration of "Pitou had no idea why these wet things were coming out of her face".) I found it to be an excellent way to give off knowledge the characters themselves couldn't give us and just an excellent way to show off the epicness and high stakes of the arc.
I hope the final arc of the series (whenever it continues and that happens) does this as well.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. This is literally a whole lot of tell and no show in what is essentially a visual medium. Just imagine watching marineford and Squard stabs Whitebeard and then it pauses and the narrator explains why WB forgives him. It would come of as not trusting your audience to understand whats going on without an explanation.
Using an example from the recent episode. Don't you think it would have been more powerful if they had just conveyed Killua's situation on screen without the narration?
Although I agree with you that its subjectively poetic but its objectively not a good idea either.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. This is literally a whole lot of tell and no show in what is essentially a visual medium.
I think that thing of "show not tell" is just limiting the possibilities of the medium.
I liked Togashi's experiment with the narrator in this arc. Sometimes it worked really well, sometimes not so much. But overall it was refreshing and contributed to making the manga a compelling reading experience.
I don't think Togashi did this because he was physically unable to draw it properly as Malintex_Terek suggested. I think he was just trying something different.
I think that thing of "show not tell" is just limiting the possibilities of the medium.
Manga adaptations barely even adhere to that rule in the first place so I don't see how it's limiting anything.
Else there would be no stupid extra expositionary dialogue of NOW I'M GONNA HIT THAT GUY WITH A ROUNDHOUSE KICK AFTER 3 BACKFLIPS just 'cause that was in the manga because the author felt his panels couldn't convey it clearly enough and the sequence is absolutely obvious in animation but they left that inner monlogue thing in making it feel awkward.
I like crazy narrators (KAIJI,SHIN MAZINGER) and I don't even mind it n HxH, but "show not tell" could be used more if anything, not the other way around.
Yeah, there are some things I think the narration was actually used very effectively for, such as Shoot's psych while fighting Youpi or Killua's body acting on its own while he wasn't sure about what he was doing. Other times it's stuff that tends to get thrown into thought bubbles.
For the anime though, idk. A lot of it probably could have been done much differently to the same effect, but because I've been introduced to HxH by the manga, it obviously doesn't strike me as badly as someone who just got introduced to the series by the anime. It's probably because, while manga is a visual medium, there is a fair bit of text involved to compensate for the lack of actual movement, while in anime you have more creative freedom to direct things by action, and lacking that sort of action and having it substituted with narration takes a bit away from the medium.
I was thinking along the lines of actually choreographing original fight material.Episode 112 looked like the only reference for it was the manga. Which is like saying the only reference is a light novel transcript, because the manga chapter was just words words words. It's not like it's impossible to transform prose-heavy narration into animation (like Katanagatari) but that episode shouldn't have dwelled on it anymore than was necessary to describe the character psychology (like Shoot's).The problem with this logic is it comes across as apologism.Togashi wrote the chapter like that because he was physically unable to draw it properly. If he could have drawn it, he would have, but he couldn't. Thinking he did a good job is fine, but implying it's better than the intended original path is like saying Togashi has no idea what makes his manga entertaining. Hence, I only see it as fan biasing the end result, not unlike people who think Evangelion's 25/26 were works of genius and not a cop-out from budget implosion.
I actually liked EoE and 25 and 26 about the same which is a lot so alright then. The anime hasn't gone exactly in the direction of the manga with a lot of scenes recently making them have a slightly different feel than the manga. With that knowledge why did they fail on making the reasons for Pitou's weird tears obvious? They didn't have to follow the scene exactly and in some ways they didn't but they couldn't figure out a way to pull off the fact that Pitou had never felt tears come out her face before in her life without words either. It just came off as odd looking.There really are things you can't tell just by looking at them and telling them is what that can be used for. But that's just me. @kevo_koma:
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you.
The way you shut down my opinion I don't really have anything to say to you because I know we won't agree lol…
I heard there's going to be pizza?
@Thousand:
I didn't like massive text boxes in the manga because manga is a visual medium. Show don't tell. Certainly wouldn't like it in something so purely visual like anime.
"Show, don't tell."
This gets repeated throughout high schools across western speaking countries and people stick to it like dogma. I like the way that the break-in is narrated. It gives insight into the characters that would have been unknowable had it not been explained. I propose a challenge to you–for the rest of the break-in, watch the arc without subtitles. It's uncommon for most anime-fans on English speaking boards to understand Japanese, so effectively you'll be ignoring the narrator's voice. When watching the scenes, see if the characters' actions make sense without the narrator present.
I don't think you understood my point. My point is that I feel there is no general sense of morality in the series. Sure, there are a number of characters who I'm okay with on a moral standpoint, in the context of their character types. But then there are other characters whose actions and treatment don't fit the way that I feel they're being portrayed, and thus it creates a moral disconnect for me.
I hope that makes sense.
That's the point. Morality is something personal, not something instilled or imposed upon you unless you let it. Your main problem with HxH is that character moralities are incongruous with your own, which is fine. In order to enjoy the series, you have to accept this. It's easier to do if you're able to accept the antisocial traits of other people in real life.
there are a few minor kinks, like Leorio being basically accepting of Killua, but I digress
Kurapika and Leorio are entirely suspicious of Killua until his battle against Illumi. If you watch the series from the beginning (and ignore the opening theme, I suppose), it's very apparent. They don't like him until they hear his motives straight from his mouth. Prior to this, not even the viewer should know whether or not Killua is a "good guy" or "bad guy."
For me it is a problem. It makes a lot of the characters unlikeable and some of the plot developments upsetting to me. And maybe I'm just slow on the uptake, but I always thought Togashi was trying to portray Gon as the noble goofy hero, at least until the Chimera Ant arc stuff (also, for Christ's sake, this is a 12-year-old kid).
But apparently a lot of people don't have a problem with this, and that's just fine and dandy.
You misread Gon. You viewed him according to a popular archetype–"noble, goofy hero." Luffy. Goku. But he's never been a hero (in fact, unless he's helping his friends, Gon is very selfish) and his goofy traits mainly disappear following episode 16. That's what he was when the series started. But then he changed. He was defeated in a vexing, debasing way that caused him to reconsider his entire actions and goals. For the first time, he sees his limitations and weakness. Aside from finding his father, Hunter x Hunter is about Gon's coming-of-age. He wants power. He wants strength. And even if he is twelve, he doesn't want to be treated like a child. Gon's choice to become a Hunter was symbolic (to him, at least) of becoming a real man. And when it has come to his morality, it's been clear from the get-go that Gon doesn't see good or bad as such.
@Mr.:
That's the point. Morality is something personal, not something instilled or imposed upon you unless you let it. Your main problem with HxH is that character moralities are incongruous with your own, which is fine. In order to enjoy the series, you have to accept this. It's easier to do if you're able to accept the antisocial traits of other people in real life.
While that's most certainly true, I don't necessarily see it necessarily if Nobodyman dislikes the series. Some series based on the ethical issues and how they tackle them will resonate better with one person than another, and especially with one with as many morally questionable characters as HxH, not everyone in the audience is going to walk away feeling like it's a good fit for them.
@Mr.:
That's the point. Morality is something personal, not something instilled or imposed upon you unless you let it. Your main problem with HxH is that character moralities are incongruous with your own, which is fine. In order to enjoy the series, you have to accept this. It's easier to do if you're able to accept the antisocial traits of other people in real life.
Its not a simple matter of certain characters having worldviews different from the reader. The HxHverse as a hole seems to operate on an alien set of moral codes. Values and outlook vary from person to person, but what would be downright sociopathic empathyless behavior passes as the norm in HxHverse. As the morality of our own real world is the only frame of reference we've got, it makes the characters unrelateable.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that its not as much "accept that others might think differently than you", and more like "the HxHverse operates on a form of morality in no way comparable to the one we have".
Lots of people aren't bothered by this at all, but for me at least it made emotional connection to the cast very difficult, because their own emotional lives were strange and foreign. I did not look at the series and go "Well, I guess thats one possible outlook on life, I'll have to accept that", I went "well, I guess this bizarre behavior is acceptable in HxHland".
@Mr.:
That's the point. Morality is something personal, not something instilled or imposed upon you unless you let it. Your main problem with HxH is that character moralities are incongruous with your own, which is fine. In order to enjoy the series, you have to accept this. It's easier to do if you're able to accept the antisocial traits of other people in real life.
EAT A DICK YOU MISERABLE GODDAMN FUCKFACE!
ahem Sorry, I hope you can accept my anti-social behavior.
Anyway, I understand nobody's perfect. In fact, I prefer it when characters has flaws; it makes them more human. But for HxH, it just goes to far for me. The way the characters and the way the world around them responds to it just feels outright wrong to me. And I'll admit, I've lived a pretty vanilla life. I never hung out with hooligans in my youth. I never did anything particularly mischievous, and certainly nothing illegal. But regardless, I still feel the way I feel. And again, it's not even that the characters and the world act immorally, it's that I don't see any reason for them to.
You misread Gon. You viewed him according to a popular archetype–"noble, goofy hero." Luffy. Goku. But he's never been a hero (in fact, unless he's helping his friends, Gon is very selfish) and his goofy traits mainly disappear following episode 16. That's what he was when the series started. But then he changed. He was defeated in a vexing, debasing way that caused him to reconsider his entire actions and goals. For the first time, he sees his limitations and weakness. Aside from finding his father, Hunter x Hunter is about Gon's coming-of-age. He wants power. He wants strength. And even if he is twelve, he doesn't want to be treated like a child. Gon's choice to become a Hunter was symbolic (to him, at least) of becoming a real man.
Well, here's how I read Gon now, and you can tell me if you think I'm on the money or not.
Aside from having a motivation that I feel is fundamentally flawed (did I ever mention I grew up without ever knowing my father and to this day have never met him? Yeah, me and Gon actually have something in common), Gon scares me. There are times he honestly feels like a serial killer in the making. Sure, he's got some noble traits; his loyalty to his friends, his determination, and the occasional sense of morality. But his apparent apathy towards brutality and violence and the loss of human life. And him apparently having little to no sense of right and wrong as you cited below.
He's a character with a great capacity for good, but an even greater capacity for evil. With his open and curious mind, with his father and his friends as his only constant, he's practically a rudderless ship amidst a sea of violent waves, fate perhaps being the only thing that may decide whether he goes down the path of righteousness or destruction. And this, my friends, is our 12-year-old hero.*
Man, fuck that volume 1 cover.
*Okay, actually I'm just being theatrical in this paragraph, so don't take it too seriously. Still, cool idea, right?
And when it has come to his morality, it's been clear from the get-go that Gon doesn't see good or bad as such.
Isn't that from Yorkshin? I would hardly call that the get-go.
Reading through the thread, I figured I'd offer my thoughts as a whole re the series compared to OP.
Remember that I love HxH and think it's amazing, but at the same time I have quite a few reservations with it that make the series inferior to OP in my eyes.
A) Gon.
! I get all the characterization bits Togashi was going for that Mr. Toto likes. The moral greyness born of being raised in the forest and having an aloof superninja dad, the nevertheless childlike earnestness (typical of shounen protagonists), the obsession with becoming strong enough etc.
! I still think he's a rather boring character. His moves are a big ol' fist and sometimes some energy scissors. And you can foreshadow a muscle explosion hair-mountain powerup all you like, in the end it's still a muscle explosion hair-mountain powerup. His goal is (was?) about as standard as they get this side of SAVE THE WORLD.
! There's similarly more to Luffy than being a forthright knucklehead badass and Oda doesn't need to resort to GRIMDARKNESS to achieve any semblance of depth. There's more of a compelling emotional connection there. The same holds true for all of the Straw Hats, who are all lovable and multi-faceted huggable characters in their own ways. Kurapika and Leorio have their likeable points but the Straw Hats outnumber–out_crowd_ them–them with vibrancy and creativity.
! To me, Killua is by far the best character out of the main four, and really ought to be the protagonist. We get more insight into his emotional turmoil and struggles, whereas with Gon it was only ever "He's looking real stony-faced about Kite, yeesh, he gon' smash some skulls yo." And he's overall a more interesting character, though that does in part rely on his relationship with Gon of course.
B. Overall plot
! It seems disjointed. The chimera ants came out of absolutely nowhere and swallowed the plot for an eon, with questionable overall ramifications for the main characters' goals. Gon did end up meeting his father as an indirect result of the entire ordeal, but that came off as anticlimactic and a sort of wrapping-that-plot-point-up gesture. I did enjoy the election arc… again, because of Killua and his new goal to protect Alluka.
! It feels like the whole Dark Continent business was cooked up as a booster shot for a world that was barren of any driving motivations. We still have Kurapika's vengeance to deal with, of course, and I'm looking forward to seeing that plot thread move forward; Yorknew was by far my favorite arc (full disclosure, Greed Island was my least favorite and I found it largely boring).
! Meanwhile, OP is virtually bursting at the seams with life. It has all the elements of a fantastic shounen adventure world just like HxH but Oda actually goes places with it. That makes it feel like a planet instead of a half-assed patchwork quilt.
Ultimately, while I respect the opinions of those who hold HxH in higher regard… I just don't see it.
The way you shut down my opinion I don't really have anything to say to you because I know we won't agree lol…
I actually agreed that subjectively its ok to find it good. I was just disagreeing with your point on an objective level.
Man, fuck that volume 1 cover.
Gon and Killua support this sentiment.
!
On an unrelated note, this is still the best art piece Togashi has ever drawn and will draw.
@The:
Its not a simple matter of certain characters having worldviews different from the reader. The HxHverse as a hole seems to operate on an alien set of moral codes. Values and outlook vary from person to person, but what would be downright sociopathic empathyless behavior passes as the norm in HxHverse. As the morality of our own real world is the only frame of reference we've got, it makes the characters unrelateable.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that its not as much "accept that others might think differently than you", and more like "the HxHverse operates on a form of morality in no way comparable to the one we have".
Lots of people aren't bothered by this at all, but for me at least it made emotional connection to the cast very difficult, because their own emotional lives were strange and foreign. I did not look at the series and go "Well, I guess thats one possible outlook on life, I'll have to accept that", I went "well, I guess this bizarre behavior is acceptable in HxHland".
I'd love to respond to this, but could you give me a few specific examples of the behavior you're discussing in your post? Just for the sake of discussion.
EAT A DICK YOU MISERABLE GODDAMN FUCKFACE!
ahem Sorry, I hope you can accept my anti-social behavior.
Haha. Technically, this is more "unsocial" behavior than "antisocial." My definition of "antisocial" moreso aligns itself with "sociopathy" instead of "coprolalia."
Anyway, I understand nobody's perfect. In fact, I prefer it when characters has flaws; it makes them more human. But for HxH, it just goes to far for me. The way the characters and the way the world around them responds to it just feels outright wrong to me. And I'll admit, I've lived a pretty vanilla life. I never hung out with hooligans in my youth. I never did anything particularly mischievous, and certainly nothing illegal. But regardless, I still feel the way I feel. And again, it's not even that the characters and the world act immorally, it's that I don't see any reason for them to.
And that's fine–I completely understand. I'm not trying to make you like or even acknowledge the series. Rather, I posted for explanation into a mindset that might be completely foreign to some readers. HxH surely isn't for everyone.
Well, here's how I read Gon now, and you can tell me if you think I'm on the money or not.
Aside from having a motivation that I feel is fundamentally flawed (did I ever mention I grew up without ever knowing my father and to this day have never met him? Yeah, me and Gon actually have something in common), Gon scares me. There are times he honestly feels like a serial killer in the making. Sure, he's got some noble traits; his loyalty to his friends, his determination, and the occasional sense of morality. But his apparent apathy towards brutality and violence and the loss of human life. And him apparently having little to no sense of right and wrong as you cited below.
He's a character with a great capacity for good, but an even greater capacity for evil. With his open and curious mind, with his father and his friends as his only constant, he's practically a rudderless ship amidst a sea of violent waves, fate perhaps being the only thing that may decide whether he goes down the path of righteousness or destruction. And this, my friends, is our 12-year-old hero.*
Man, fuck that volume 1 cover.
*Okay, actually I'm just being theatrical in this paragraph, so don't take it too seriously. Still, cool idea, right?
As part of his coming-of-age, we as adult readers should be concerned about Gon's future development. His role models are what will steer him into the person he will ultimately become, and if he reaches a certain point there will be no going back. Much of HxH is about the corruption of children, and I'm sure that the series will continue along this path.
Everybody sees themselves as the heroes of their own stories (in real life); it's how they can justify committing heinous acts of evil. In example, the Phantom Troupe. They don't see themselves as "evil" (heck, Chrollo doesn't see Judas as evil either). There's still a lot we don't know about them. Their pasts will explain the people they are in the present. But more than likely, they were normal kids corrupted by the true nature of the world around them. From naive and innocent to world-weary and villainous. From serene childhoods to enraged adulthoods. That's certainly possible in Gon's case. It's why Nobunaga thought that Gon would make a good member of the Phantom Troupe. He obviously sees something in Gon and wants to convert the kid to his worldview.
On a side note, Gyro will make a good foil for Gon. He's someone who had a father–absent emotionally, but present. Gon had faith that Ging cared for him, which he did. Gyro had faith that his father cared for him...yet, he didn't. He saw his existence as meaningless, and truth be told--could one argue against this?
Isn't that from Yorkshin? I would hardly call that the get-go.
2 years into the series' publication. Prior to that there may have been hints, but nothing as explicit as this.
Reading through the thread, I figured I'd offer my thoughts as a whole re the series compared to OP.
Remember that I love HxH and think it's amazing, but at the same time I have quite a few reservations with it that make the series inferior to OP in my eyes.
A) Gon.
! I get all the characterization bits Togashi was going for that Mr. Toto likes. The moral greyness born of being raised in the forest and having an aloof superninja dad, the nevertheless childlike earnestness (typical of shounen protagonists), the obsession with becoming strong enough etc.
! I still think he's a rather boring character. His moves are a big ol' fist and sometimes some energy scissors. And you can foreshadow a muscle explosion hair-mountain powerup all you like, in the end it's still a muscle explosion hair-mountain powerup. His goal is (was?) about as standard as they get this side of SAVE THE WORLD.
! There's similarly more to Luffy than being a forthright knucklehead badass and Oda doesn't need to resort to GRIMDARKNESS to achieve any semblance of depth. There's more of a compelling emotional connection there. The same holds true for all of the Straw Hats, who are all lovable and multi-faceted huggable characters in their own ways. Kurapika and Leorio have their likeable points but the Straw Hats outnumber–out_crowd_ them–them with vibrancy and creativity.
! To me, Killua is by far the best character out of the main four, and really ought to be the protagonist. We get more insight into his emotional turmoil and struggles, whereas with Gon it was only ever "He's looking real stony-faced about Kite, yeesh, he gon' smash some skulls yo." And he's overall a more interesting character, though that does in part rely on his relationship with Gon of course.
! Of course, Gon's powerup reflected exactly what he wanted to be. Little boys liked Dragon Ball. Gon wanted to be strong, so he became the strongest thing that he could think of…SS3 Goku, lol.
! If we're comparing protagonists, chalk it up to worldview. To be honest, One Piece and Hunter x Hunter are so different that I can't even begin to consider comparing the two. One Piece is quite epic and more optimistic. More humorous. Togashi's always had a dark personality and worldview, and this is apparent in his series. HxH is character-driven, while One Piece is plot driven. There's a difference in how we approach series too. I'm not interested in "huggable" characters by any means. Neither is Togashi. He uses cute character designs to mask vileness.
! I actually don't care too much for Killua either. He's a great character, but I believe Gon to be much better as the protagonist. Gon's the type to keep his negative emotions inside and Togashi doesn't like to reveal Gon's thoughts. Killua is an easier character for the audience to connect with because he gives the illusion of openness. We always hear Killua's thoughts and emotional turmoil.
@Mr.:
Haha. Technically, this is more "unsocial" behavior than "antisocial." My definition of "antisocial" moreso aligns itself with "sociopathy" instead of "coprolalia."
Like I said, I'm fine with people having some personal faults and minor antisocial tendencies. But if it's a major serious personality disorder (which, from my POV, seems to be the case with Gon) that should be treated.
As part of his coming-of-age, we as adult readers should be concerned about Gon's future development. His role models are what will steer him into the person he will ultimately become, and if he reaches a certain point there will be no going back. Much of HxH is about the corruption of children, and I'm sure that the series will continue along this path.
Everybody sees themselves as the heroes of their own stories (in real life); it's how they can justify committing heinous acts of evil. In example, the Phantom Troupe. They don't see themselves as "evil" (heck, Chrollo doesn't see Judas as evil either). There's still a lot we don't know about them. Their pasts will explain the people they are in the present. But more than likely, they were normal kids corrupted by the true nature of the world around them. From naive and innocent to world-weary and villainous. From serene childhoods to enraged adulthoods. That's certainly possible in Gon's case. It's why Nobunaga thought that Gon would make a good member of the Phantom Troupe. He obviously sees something in Gon and wants to convert the kid to his worldview.
I guess the problem I have with this is that Gon already seems pretty warped from the get-go with the Hunter Exam stuff. And people like to say that was due to him being raised in the forest or whatever, but 1) We hardly saw any of that and 2) No, he actually wasn't; he was only partially raised in the forest. Heck, Tarzan was fully raised in the wilderness and he turned out better than Gon.
On a side note, Gyro will make a good foil for Gon. He's someone who had a father–absent emotionally, but present. Gon had faith that Ging cared for him, which he did. Gyro had faith that his father cared for him…yet, he didn't. He saw his existence as meaningless, and truth be told--could one argue against this?
Did he really? I thought they stated pretty explicitly that Ging just preferred being a Hunter to being a father, and the story has never really been very apologetic about that. I mean, yeah, he set up that Greed Island stuff (if I remember correctly), but if Gon hadn't become a Hunter I guess he would've just left him alone forever, right?
Oh, and thank you for understanding and accepting my POV
I just watched the most recent episode. The scenes where Shoot's abilities evolved, and Killua surprised himself by being the one to diverge from objectives to help out Ikalgo were awesome to finally see animated
Seeing the Akame ga Kiru thread popping up coupled with reading this discussion, it's weird because the problems Nobodyman has with HxH are very similar to the problems I have with Akame ga Kiru. And yet I don't feel the same about HxH.
Like I said, I'm fine with people having some personal faults and minor antisocial tendencies. But if it's a major serious personality disorder (which, from my POV, seems to be the case with Gon) that should be treated.
I guess the problem I have with this is that Gon already seems pretty warped from the get-go with the Hunter Exam stuff. And people like to say that was due to him being raised in the forest or whatever, but 1) We hardly saw any of that and 2) No, he actually wasn't; he was only partially raised in the forest. Heck, Tarzan was fully raised in the wilderness and he turned out better than Gon.
Did he really? I thought they stated pretty explicitly that Ging just preferred being a Hunter to being a father, and the story has never really been very apologetic about that. I mean, yeah, he set up that Greed Island stuff (if I remember correctly), but if Gon hadn't become a Hunter I guess he would've just left him alone forever, right?
Oh, and thank you for understanding and accepting my POV
Can you explain exactly how Gon is warped?
Gon's childish and his main motivations are curiosity, friendship, chasing his father and later, revenge. If you consider that, most of his actions make sense.
It's been established that most characters are very grey. Things like torture are treated as a common occurrence . Similarly people expect to get tortured if they are captured.
I think your problem is expecting all of the characters to be normal and moralistic because you like those kind of characters.
The hunter world is not some kind of Chivalric Order, stop expecting it to be . Hunter characters will only be motivated by their own goals and will consider options like sabotage, murder and torture as valid means.
Can you explain exactly how Gon is warped?
Can you explain exactly how Gon is warped?
I explained in a previous post
http://www.apforums.net/showthread.php?t=34380&page=392&p=3128952&viewfull=1#post3128952 But, to repeat, apparent nonchalance to all the brutality and death occuring around him and little to no sense of right and wrong.
If I was 12 and saw people being butchered left and right, I would lose my shit. Hell, if I saw that today, I'd lose my shit.
Like I said, I'm fine with people having some personal faults and minor antisocial tendencies. But if it's a major serious personality disorder (which, from my POV, seems to be the case with Gon) that should be treated.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203986604577255750107057014 http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/01/09/3140081/bridge-sociopathy/
These people certainly exist and function in society, yet they do a good job of masking their traits. Gon is more Machiavellian than a sociopath, but the latter trait is still present. I'd argue that most people, to a certain extent, harbor mildly sociopathic tendencies. However, they're certainly emphasized in Hunter x Hunter. I think that empathy and compassion are powerful, but limited. Netero has a great quote about this–
! King of the ants…you don't understand anything about the limitless malice of mankind.
I largely believe that one of the best things about the Chimera Ant arc is that it forces the reader to compare themselves to seemingly brutal, inhumane creatures. Really, perhaps humanity's capacity for cruelty is limitless.
I guess the problem I have with this is that Gon already seems pretty warped from the get-go with the Hunter Exam stuff. And people like to say that was due to him being raised in the forest or whatever, but 1) We hardly saw any of that and 2) No, he actually wasn't; he was only partially raised in the forest. Heck, Tarzan was fully raised in the wilderness and he turned out better than Gon.
A few pages back, a poster wrote something fantastic about social darwinism in HxH. That's crucial in the series. I think that Gon understands the law of the jungle during the Hunter exam arc, which is why he isn't fazed by death. He's seen it in the wild numerous times and he's going to become a hunter. Killing is a part of the job description.
I wouldn't call him warped at all. I think that he's a realist. Perhaps a bit of an opportunist, which can manifest in negative ways. I think that the character's personality begins a major change during the fourth phase of the Hunter Exam, which is a prelude to who he becomes in the present.
Did he really? I thought they stated pretty explicitly that Ging just preferred being a Hunter to being a father, and the story has never really been very apologetic about that. I mean, yeah, he set up that Greed Island stuff (if I remember correctly), but if Gon hadn't become a Hunter I guess he would've just left him alone forever, right?
I think the difference is manifest in the actions of both fathers. Ging left to follow his dream–once Gon was told the truth about his father, he had an ideal to follow. He was given the belief that "one's dream is the most important thing of all." Gon saw it as a challenge and wanted to become a man who lived up to his father's standards. Ging is a terrible parent, but it's not like he dislikes Gon. He's raising his son in a way similar to the way in which he was raised: through independence.
Ging's parents died when he was young. He raised himself through seeing the world and becoming a Hunter, and he seems like he regrets none of it. He abandoned Gon but also has boundless confidence that his son will grow into a fine man--with a bit of his direction, of course (a la Greed Island).
Gyro, on the other hand, had boundless confidence in his father. Gyro believed that everything his father had done was normal and that, deep down, his father really loved him. When the truth was revealed, Gyro's entire worldview and sense of self-worth collapsed. Gyro saw the man for the drunken oaf that he was and killed him brutally. Maybe Gon could have seen Ging as an enemy if he didn't make it so clear that he actually did care for his son (via cassette tape, Greed Island, Kite's message).
@Nobodyman:
Oh, and thank you for understanding and accepting my POV
You don't need to thank me–it's just common courtesy in a civilized discussion. It's only fair.
@Mr.:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203986604577255750107057014 http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/01/09/3140081/bridge-sociopathy/
These people certainly exist and function in society, yet they do a good job of masking their traits.
That's news to me. So if you're a psychopath, you either become a killer or a business man. Makes sense.
Gon is more Machiavellian than a sociopath, but the latter trait is still present. I'd argue that most people, to a certain extent, harbor mildly sociopathic tendencies. However, they're certainly emphasized in Hunter x Hunter. I think that empathy and compassion are powerful, but limited. Netero has a great quote about this–
! King of the ants…you don't understand anything about the limitless malice of mankind.
In all seriousness, just because it might be true to real life doesn't mean I have to like it nor do I have to like Gon. And just because it's true to life doesn't mean it'll necessarily work in a story.
I largely believe that one of the best things about the Chimera Ant arc is that it forces the reader to compare themselves to seemingly brutal, inhumane creatures. Really, perhaps humanity's capacity for cruelty is limitless.
The Chimera Ant arc just makes me sick to read it.
A few pages back, a poster wrote something fantastic about social darwinism in HxH. That's crucial in the series. I think that Gon understands the law of the jungle during the Hunter exam arc, which is why he isn't fazed by death. He's seen it in the wild numerous times and he's going to become a hunter.
Show me. Show me the numerous times he's witnessed death in the wild. And, again, I guess these are just my ideals, but the death of an animal is different from the death of a fellow human.
Killing is a part of the job description
I don't remember them saying that early on. It was pretty romanticized from what I recall.
I wouldn't call him warped at all. I think that he's a realist.
And I'll disagree.
I think the difference is manifest in the actions of both fathers. Ging left to follow his dream–once Gon was told the truth about his father, he had an ideal to follow. He was given the belief that "one's dream is the most important thing of all." Gon saw it as a challenge and wanted to become a man who lived up to his father's standards.
Fuck him. Why should he care what his dad thinks?
Ging is a terrible parent, but it's not like he dislikes Gon. He's raising his son in a way similar to the way in which he was raised: through independence.
Hmm, maybe you're right. Maybe my dad was just trying raise me through independence too. Or maybe he was a deadbeat. Either way, I don't care.
Hunter doesn't treat death as such a serious topic. It's treated as a common occurrence. Say you wanted to get rid of a target. Imprisonment and killing would be treated as equally viable options in hunter, while in the real world you would rather not take the kill option. Some people might not enjoy that, but from that point of view most characters reacting poorly to murder would make sense. Try to think of things from that perspective.
Gon is a 12 year old child and has a lot of curiosity. I don't think you should be expecting him to be a knight who upholds a moral code.
You're basically expecting Gon (and every other character) to be a moralist who treats death as the most serious thing in the world. That's probably who you are and while I can understand you wouldn't like characters who are very different from that ideal, you shouldn't be expecting Gon to be that way. It's quite narrow minded to expect hunter's moral themes to be same as the real world.
Since you've established several times that you don't like hunter because there are conflicts with your moral ideals (which is completely fine), you really should read something else. You're just expecting hunter to be something it's not or making statements about how you would do things without properly considering things from the character's perspective.
That's news to me. So if you're a psychopath, you either become a killer or a business man. Makes sense.
People in all sorts of professions are secretly sociopathic. Many doctors end up being the same way, if only to preserve their sanity.
In all seriousness, just because it might be true to real life doesn't mean I have to like it nor do I have to like Gon. And just because it's true to life doesn't mean it'll necessarily work in a story.
Exactly. You don't have to like it, or even believe that it works. The beauty of reviewing media in general is that everyone has a different opinion and there's no "right" way to do so.
The Chimera Ant arc just makes me sick to read it.
You're definitely entitled to your opinion, and that's fine. The only question I have is the following: how do you regard these tales when they're true to real life? This is an uncomfortable truth. I can see why someone would feel sick reading it, especially if they're distanced from that sort of world.
Show me. Show me the numerous times he's witnessed death in the wild. And, again, I guess these are just my ideals, but the death of an animal is different from the death of a fellow human.
The first chapter. He sees Kite cut a fox-bear clean in half. The law of the jungle. He hunts fish and eats them. A boy growing up in the woods is bound to understand the law of the jungle early.
Gon certainly doesn't like seeing others die, but he can live with it. Millions of people do the same everyday.
I don't remember them saying that early on. It was pretty romanticized from what I recall.
I'm of the opinion that this was an intentional way to deceive the reader. In the first chapter, Togashi makes it seem as though "hunter" is synonymous with "adventurer." In many ways, it is. But before you even read the first chapter, the title gives away the true aim of the series.
When you think of the word "hunter" or "hunting" in English, what do you imagine? Certainly not adventuring. It's killing for sport or survival. One of the earliest necessary behaviors of man since the dawn of time.
And I'll disagree.
Again, no problem with that.
Fuck him. Why should he care what his dad thinks?
Because many children model themselves after their parents. A father is important to a young boy–even an absent one. Gon wants to live up to his dad's expectations. It became his purpose in life.
Hmm, maybe you're right. Maybe my dad was just trying raise me through independence too. Or maybe he was a deadbeat. Either way, I don't care.
I'm not trying to draw any parallels between your life and the character's. This is fiction, so of course it's idealized. Searching for meaning in your own struggle in this series is a futile endeavor, though I do emphasize with you.
Anyway, I understand nobody's perfect. In fact, I prefer it when characters has flaws; it makes them more human. But for HxH, it just goes to far for me. The way the characters and the way the world around them responds to it just feels outright wrong to me. And I'll admit, I've lived a pretty vanilla life. I never hung out with hooligans in my youth. I never did anything particularly mischievous, and certainly nothing illegal. But regardless, I still feel the way I feel. And again, it's not even that the characters and the world act immorally, it's that I don't see any reason for them to.
Well, here's how I read Gon now, and you can tell me if you think I'm on the money or not.
Aside from having a motivation that I feel is fundamentally flawed (did I ever mention I grew up without ever knowing my father and to this day have never met him? Yeah, me and Gon actually have something in common), Gon scares me. There are times he honestly feels like a serial killer in the making. Sure, he's got some noble traits; his loyalty to his friends, his determination, and the occasional sense of morality. But his apparent apathy towards brutality and violence and the loss of human life. And him apparently having little to no sense of right and wrong as you cited below.
He's a character with a great capacity for good, but an even greater capacity for evil. With his open and curious mind, with his father and his friends as his only constant, he's practically a rudderless ship amidst a sea of violent waves, fate perhaps being the only thing that may decide whether he goes down the path of righteousness or destruction. And this, my friends, is our 12-year-old hero.*
Jesus Christ, after reading your analysis, I see Gon as a possible Hisoka in the making. Who knows, maybe Hisoka started out the same as Gon, a curious and open-minded child with no concept of right and wrong, who could also develop both ways and ended up going down the path of a perverted homicidal psycho ?
Hell, it could be that Hisoka and Illumi were the Gon/Killua duo of the yesteryear(with obvious differnces of course. Like them not being quite as dear to each other or Illumi being quite comfortable with his assassin lifestyle)!!!
And maybe the current state of Gon's character is actually a part of a long and complex character arc that will eventually have him become either a good person in contrast to Hisoka or becoming a man who's crotch glows at the thought of killing children (obviously the former if this theory comes true) !!!
Holy shit!
HOLY SHIT!!
HOLY SHIEEEEET!!!
Jesus Christ, after reading your analysis, I see Gon as a possible Hisoka in the making. Who knows, maybe Hisoka started out the same as Gon, a curious and open-minded child with no concept of right and wrong, who could also develop both ways and ended up going down the path of a perverted homicidal psycho ?
Hell, it could be that Hisoka and Illumi were the Gon/Killua duo of the yesteryear(with obvious differnces of course. Like them not being quite as dear to each other or Illumi being quite comfortable with his assassin lifestyle)!!!
And maybe the current state of Gon's character is actually a part of a long and complex character arc that will eventually have him become either a good person in contrast to Hisoka or becoming a man who's crotch glows at the thought of killing children (obviously the former if this theory comes true) !!!
Holy shit!
HOLY SHIT!!
HOLY SHIEEEEET!!!
That's it!!!
Hisoka gets his kicks out of destroying innocence and having been conquered by it. Hisoka and Illlumi are the perverted Gon and Killua. You've gotten it!!!! I'm not joking–I actually deleted posts in reference to this after writing them. Completely apparent in the final chapters. I'm extremely glad that someone picked up on this!!!
Hell, it could be that Hisoka and Illumi were the Gon/Killua duo of the yesteryear(with obvious differnces of course. Like them not being quite as dear to each other or Illumi being quite comfortable with his assassin lifestyle)
! Must be the explanation as to why Hisoka knows about Illumi's "killing aura".
Yeah, I was thinking about that when I said "not quite as dear to each other".
! Must be the explanation as to why Hisoka knows about Illumi's "killing aura".
[qimg]http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/44/TBD-326.0/compressed/i017.jpg[/qimg]
I can't wait to see that scene animated. Lol.
Gon is a 12 year old child and has a lot of curiosity. I don't think you should be expecting him to be a knight who upholds a moral code.
I'm not expecting that at all. But by the time you're 12 I think most people have at least some morals and some sense of right and wrong.
You're basically expecting Gon (and every other character) to be a moralist who treats death as the most serious thing in the world. That's probably who you are and while I can understand you wouldn't like characters who are very different from that ideal, you shouldn't be expecting Gon to be that way. It's quite narrow minded to expect hunter's moral themes to be same as the real world.
I've talked about this issue numerous, and I really don't know how much better I can explain it. I don't care if a character has morals that differ from my own, but the character should be portrayed in a way that makes sense. Now I don't know if Gon is this way because of how he raised, because he was born that way, or both, but I don't think Togashi has done a good job of conveying this aspect of Gon and how it fits in the world and characters around him.
Since you've established several times that you don't like hunter because there are conflicts with your moral ideals (which is completely fine), you really should read something else.
Well, even if I wanted to, it's not like there are any new chapters to read.
You're just expecting hunter to be something it's not or making statements about how you would do things without properly considering things from the character's perspective.
Maybe if I reread the series it'll make more sense, but right now I think the way Hunters have been portrayed and how we're supposed to view them has been quite confused.
@Mr.:
You're definitely entitled to your opinion, and that's fine. The only question I have is the following: how do you regard these tales when they're true to real life? This is an uncomfortable truth. I can see why someone would feel sick reading it, especially if they're distanced from that sort of world.
Of course I think that's terrible, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you not feel sick reading it? Are you from that sort of world?
The first chapter. He sees Kite cut a fox-bear clean in half. The law of the jungle. He hunts fish and eats them. A boy growing up in the woods is bound to understand the law of the jungle early.
No. Just, no. Fishing does not make you numb to brutal murders.
Gon certainly doesn't like seeing others die, but he can live with it. Millions of people do the same everyday.
Again, just hearing about something and actually seeing it are two different things.
I'm of the opinion that this was an intentional way to deceive the reader.
For what purpose?
When you think of the word "hunter" or "hunting" in English, what do you imagine? Certainly not adventuring. It's killing for sport or survival. One of the earliest necessary behaviors of man since the dawn of time.
Interesting point, but I guess I was too distraced by Gon riding on a frog. Also, wasn't the "Hunter" idea supposed to be based on Togashi's interest in collecting things?
Because many children model themselves after their parents. A father is important to a young boy–even an absent one. Gon wants to live up to his dad's expectations. It became his purpose in life.
Well, my absent father wasn't really important to me at all, so forgive me if I have trouble understanding that "logic". And if that's the case, why wouldn't Gon model himself after his mother? (I forget her name)
I'm not trying to draw any parallels between your life and the character's. This is fiction, so of course it's idealized. Searching for meaning in your own struggle in this series is a futile endeavor, though I do emphasize with you.
Apparently it's the only thing idealized in HxH.
But no, that's fine. And it probably wasn't fair to invoke my own personal issues on the matter, but again, I just want to explain why I find it hard to accept.
Jesus Christ, after reading your analysis, I see Gon as a possible Hisoka in the making.
Glad I could help. Wish I could offer more insight into a series I actually like, but you're welcome nonetheless.
So how would you react if Gon actully acquired his moral compass later ? Like, if he really is what Hisoka used to be (I like this idea) and he is supposed to develop the other way and be contrast to Hisoka (I like this one too), would it retrospectivelly change some your views on him ?
Jesus Christ, after reading your analysis, I see Gon as a possible Hisoka in the making. Who knows, maybe Hisoka started out the same as Gon, a curious and open-minded child with no concept of right and wrong, who could also develop both ways and ended up going down the path of a perverted homicidal psycho ?
Hell, it could be that Hisoka and Illumi were the Gon/Killua duo of the yesteryear(with obvious differnces of course. Like them not being quite as dear to each other or Illumi being quite comfortable with his assassin lifestyle)!!!
And maybe the current state of Gon's character is actually a part of a long and complex character arc that will eventually have him become either a good person in contrast to Hisoka or becoming a man who's crotch glows at the thought of killing children (obviously the former if this theory comes true) !!!
Holy shit!
HOLY SHIT!!
HOLY SHIEEEEET!!!
My RL friend and I came to the same exact conclusion after really thinking about it for a while. It's kind of scary.
I just want to re-emphasize this point that I don't necessarily have a problem with fictional characters whose morals differ from my own. But, again, I think the problem I have with HxH is that I don't think Togashi has done a good job of putting these morally ambiguous characters and this morally ambiguous profession into context.
And yes, I am a sensitive person, and I am sensitive when it comes to death. Especially the death of children, which it why it makes me sick to read those certain scenes from the CA arc.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So how would you react if Gon actully acquired his moral compass later ? Like, if he really is what Hisoka used to be (I like this idea) and he is supposed to develop the other way and be contrast to Hisoka (I like this one too), would it retrospectivelly change some your views on him ?
This manga is vexing enough without hypotheticals, Sander.
But, to answer your question, I honestly don't know. It wouldn't change the fact that I think, for the entire series thus far, Gon has been a strange and not exactly likeable character to me.