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What do you think of the way women are portrayed in OP?
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@Strеlоk_:
The evil ones are almost always men, the one who suffer the most damage are always men, the biggest idiots are always men. How about these? And yes women are generally shown as smarter and men as dumber. Have you read the manga?
Wait a minute, I'm gonna take a selfie:
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@Al!naJames:
I don't know what you're talking about (I hope you're just being sarcastic), and gay people suffering in Russia is a whole other issue related to religion, but gender roles here aren't awful, in fact it's quite opposite from Japan, nobody expects girls to get married and be stuck at kitchen with babies. I was never treated as a "girl" my whole life, I was always treated as a person.
I'm sure that there are issues that were left over from Soviet era, but our culture thinks otherwise: there are a lot of traditional Russian proverbs (legends, histories, fairy tales) that say that a true woman will "stop a horse on the run and walk into a burning house", basically meaning "a true woman is a badass woman". Not to mention we've had a whole set of really awesome Empresses, including Olga of Kiev who, to revenge her husband that got killed, buried alive the messengers of Drevlians and later burned down their whole city. Women are also associated with wisdom.This also begs the question of what defines a true woman/man in any culture. The answer can either be simple or complex, however, I'm more inclined to say that rather it's a woman or man, it's the type of personality they have in any culture.
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@Strеlоk_:
The evil ones are almost always men, the one who suffer the most damage are always men, the biggest idiots are always men ?
It's a proof that the male characters in One Piece have a more diverse range of personallity than the females, if anything.
3DS Friend Code : 3222 - 6913 - 3431
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Guys… next time just report Strelok instead of feeding his trolling for 4 pages.
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@Strеlоk_:
But Oda is trying to imply that men are evil and stupid, isn't he?
No, he's implying nothing because there's a gigantic range of characterization of men all over the spectrum, with really nothing being treated specifically as not masculine. Like, you might have some small point if say, there was some long standing thing about Men not showing emotion and always having to be strong and stoic, but EVERY male main character has cried in the story, usually multiple times. It's not the same as having maybe one or two women who don't conform to some major societal stereotype about women. And the fact that there aren't that many female characters relative to male characters is also an issue. The overwhelming number of important female characters fall prey to major stereotyping and very few women are all that strong (And those that are incredibly strong never seem to get that way through physical prowess. It's always strong women are using DF powers or some other thing instead of being able to fight on par with men without tricks or such). And you keep ignoring my point that the overwhelming majority of dumb brutish males are pirates anyways, because context is incredibly important in these cases. Of course most pirates aren't going to be that smart, and of course they'll be brutes. Because you know, pirates being brutes is kind of a thing
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LOL, he was banned so hard that all trace of him disappeared.
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Portrayed perfect to me…. Unlike other manga's who have the same annoying female characters, example:
-Sakura(Naruto)
-Inou(bleach, annoyed me the most)
-Lucy(fairy tail) and bunch of other manga's I read etc...My explanation of annoying is-
-Because of the female character the main character always survives,
-Because of the female character the big bad villain turns good,
-Because of the female character the world is saved bunch of times,
-Because of the female character the good guy doesn't kill,
-Because of the female character all the villains plans fails badly,
-Because of the female character every 2 seconds she's saying the protagonist name,
-Because of the female character the protagonist comes back to his senses when he's about to do something crazy,
Etc…
I've never seen any female character like this in one piece, never.... And that's why I will not complain about how Oda treats the females in his story, as long as he doesn't put this kind of female characters in one piece.
Big MoM ate - 2012
CC for nakama.
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Portrayed perfect to me…. Unlike other manga's who have the same annoying female characters, example:
-Sakura(Naruto)
-Inou(bleach, annoyed me the most)
-Lucy(fairy tail) and bunch of other manga's I read etc...My explanation of annoying is-
-Because of the female character the main character always survives,
-Because of the female character the big bad villain turns good,
-Because of the female character the world is saved bunch of times,
-Because of the female character the good guy doesn't kill,
-Because of the female character all the villains plans fails badly,
-Because of the female character every 2 seconds she's saying the protagonist name,
-Because of the female character the protagonist comes back to his senses when he's about to do something crazy,
Etc…
I've never seen any female character like this in one piece, never.... And that's why I will not complain about how Oda treats the females in his story, as long as he doesn't put this kind of female characters in one piece.Oda has made it work this long anyways, so I'm pretty happy with that.
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So why isn't man hate considered to be a real thing?
That misandry (What a strange word) doesn't cancel out misogyny seems perfectly reasonable
But people seem to be saying that hating men can't be a real thing nor a problem, which seems curious to me
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@wolfwoof:
So why isn't man hate considered to be a real thing?
That misandry (What a strange word) doesn't cancel out misogyny seems perfectly reasonable
But people seem to be saying that hating men can't be a real thing nor a problem, which seems curious to me
I'd assume they're talking about it on a societal scale as the world is right now, rather than a few individuals. Obviously there are going to be people who just hate men for whatever reason, but they aren't really a major societal force right now (or really ever in the known span of human history to my knowledge). Whereas misogyny is something that's had deep undercurrents in society for thousands of years and still has major impact today
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@wolfwoof:
So why isn't man hate considered to be a real thing?
That misandry (What a strange word) doesn't cancel out misogyny seems perfectly reasonable
But people seem to be saying that hating men can't be a real thing nor a problem, which seems curious to me
I think Crystal's comic on the last page sums it up pretty well. Is it insulting and problematic that TV commercials imply that men (and by that extension, myself) are inept when it comes to cooking/cleaning? Of course. I resent that.
Is it anywhere near as problematic as blaming women for their own sexual assault because they were drunk/wearing tight clothing? Not by a long shot. That's on a whole different scale.Both are problems that should be fixed, but when people come in shouting about the former when anyone brings up the latter, it's clear that they're being motivated by some sort of reactionary anger to the very idea that women have been oppressed for thousands of years ("Harumph! Oh yeah, well, well, men have it bad too! Just look at how Zoro is always getting lost! That insults me personally!"). Most of the time it seems to come from a very childish and exaggeratedly indignant place.
Men being hurt by outdated gender roles is a thing. It exists.
Widespread, systematic misandry at the hands of societies/governments/corporations is not a thing. Not even the few examples of matrilineal societies throughout history actually oppressed men, with the possible exception of like, the Isle of Lesbos. -
@CCC:
I think Crystal's comic on the last page sums it up pretty well. Is it insulting and problematic that TV commercials imply that men (and by that extension, myself) are inept when it comes to cooking/cleaning? Of course. I resent that.
Is it anywhere near as problematic as blaming women for their own sexual assault because they were drunk/wearing tight clothing? Not by a long shot. That's on a whole different scale.Both are problems that should be fixed, but when people come in shouting about the former when anyone brings up the latter, it's clear that they're being motivated by some sort of reactionary anger to the very idea that women have been oppressed for thousands of years ("Harumph! Oh yeah, well, well, men have it bad too! Just look at how Zoro is always getting lost! That insults me personally!"). Most of the time it seems to come from a very childish and exaggeratedly indignant place.
Men being hurt by outdated gender roles is a thing. It exists.
Widespread, systematic misandry at the hands of societies/governments/corporations is not a thing. Not even the few examples of matrilineal societies throughout history actually oppressed men, with the possible exception of like, the Isle of Lesbos.I was typing something along these lines, but CCC puts is more clearly.
I love this forum.
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Are you guys implying that all female characters are weak and "girly" (and that being "girly" is pejorative)?
Amazon Lily, Shakky, Hina, Catarina Devon, Whitey Bay, Rebecca, Robin, Kalifa, Monet, Baby 5, Lola, Bonney… we had all kind of female characters portrayed, I don't get why you guys are making a fuss about some stereotypical jokes that were probably made because he wanted the female versions of the supernovas to be somewhat the opposite of what they are.
Please let me go back to this and set things straight once again:
What are we complaining about? Oda's recent tendency of writing and drawing female characters and being stuck with it. Why I say recent? It used to be much better, but got worse over time.
Obviously "quitting One Piece" is not an option, I have been reading it for 10 years now and something like this won't make me quit reading something that's been such a long running interest and addiction that I love for a vast variety of traits. But doesn't mean I have to find everything about it perfect. Trying to contact Oda upon this is also not something possible because he's extremely hard to get in touch with due to his status (I believe Manga artists in Japan are considered to be more god-like than some western celebrities in our part of the world) and if I ever had a brief chance to talk to him/to get him read my letter? Would I really start off by complaining? That would be just downright rude. The problem most likely lies in his own personality, not with the way he treats his current work, some brief fan critique won't change anything.Sometimes you just want to engage in a forum discussion to let some steam out on the subject, you know?
So what exactly is the problem?
Like I said, he's stuck with both drawing and writing female characters.What is the problem about their visual portrayal? Oda hardly has any female characters that look "normal" - the only recent example I can think of is Otohime. Most girls are either pretty+sexy or ugly+fat/old. Have we ever seen a single chubby female that looked cute? I don't think so and that's just absurd, he's basically telling his audience that being fat means being ugly. The only female character ever that broke that rule is Devon who's sexy + ugly. But do I need to remind you he had to struggle with her design for like 10 years?
The other problem is that about 80%? 90%? of female characters are in the pretty+sexy range. And recently most of them started looking the same. Oda used to try to give his girls different eye shapes and lips, and now they all look similar? Even Robin who used to have one of the most beautiful + distinctive female faces in OP-verse is now being drawn in the same manner as Hancock, Violet and Tashigi, who are literally impossible to tell apart on smaller frames. Also we hardly see any more girls with short hair?Then comes in the writing problem.
Let's face it: most of female characters in One Piece are very similar in personality.
Oda is not completely hopeless and there are good examples of both visual design and personality writing, still - since One Piece is so huge and long and there are so many and you just start seeing this pattern after a while and it really gets onto you.
Thankfully Nami and Robin who are a part of the main cast tend to act differently, Nami is much louder and pushy and emotional and Robin is more calm and serious and smart than other girls, still - we see them do mostly nothing nowadays (like I said - it used to be better). But if you look outside of the crew - girls tend to act cute, think about fashion and love all the time, they are hardly ever in the lead of something, they always get in trouble and need saving, they are also kind and obviously they don't get things that boys like, i.e. robots. If you're evil you can only be ugly. If you're not ugly that means you're just a poor soul working under a villain guy for some reasons and you will end up being on the good side after a series of events anyway. If you're a pretty girl you're also not allowed to have any major flaws that would affect your personality, like you can't be alcoholic or really dumb or anything of the like, you have to stay in certain borders. Hell, you can't even act like a bitch. Also you can't be strong and fight properly, pfft, that's a given. -
Oh i was thinking more in general than anything any specific poster on here wrote.
But yeah i guess, just seems strange to be all no you don't feel that way when someone voices a complaint
I mean if anyone should be sensitive so such a thing it would be people who are used to getting that treatment
Being casually dismissive of people can never be a good thing can it?
Okay i'll stop being all hippydippy now
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There are plenty of issues men face, but they get ignored.
- In most countries only men have to serve in the military.
- Men are much more likely to have a workplace death.
- The majority of the homeless are men.
- The majority of prisoners are men.
- After divorce, usually the woman takes care of the child and the man has to pay.
- Domestic violence is ignored when the man is the victim, which happens in around 40% of the cases in Britain and similarily in America.
- A man can't get raped by a woman accroding to the law.
- A man is usually expected to support his family.
- Men have shorter lives on average.
- Men pay bigger can insurance.
And I think it would be nice if the mods start acting like mature people. It's not like banning me is stopping me from coming here. If you have something against me - say it. Maybe I am not such a bad person.
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@Strelօk_:
There are plenty of issues men face, but they get ignored.
- In most countries only men have to serve in the military.
- Men are much more likely to have a workplace death.
- The majority of the homeless are men.
- The majority of prisoners are men.
- After divorce, usually the woman takes care of the child and the man has to pay.
- Domestic violence is ignored when the man is the victim, which happens in around 40% of the cases in Britain and similarily in America.
- A man can't get raped by a woman accroding to the law.
- A man is usually expected to support his family.
- Men have shorter lives on average.
- Men pay bigger can insurance.
And I think it would be nice if the mods start acting like mature people. It's not like banning me is stopping me from coming here. If you have something against me - say it. Maybe I am not such a bad person.
They're ignored in this thread because these issues don't have anything to do with how men or women are portrayed in medias. Especially One Piece.
3DS Friend Code : 3222 - 6913 - 3431
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I think One Piece has great variety when it comes to female characters. I probably haven't seen such great diversity in any other work. Sadly the same can't be said about physical appearance of said characters.
The most disappointing thing however (apart from under-representation) is that Oda could have done much better and we know it. He can write satisfying female character development and entertaining fights, as we've seen earlier in the story, but he choose to show us how cool his male characters are over and over again. Especially since right now Nami has more place to development than Zoro or Sanji. Punk Hazard was such a missed chance. We also know he can do diverse female bodies, that don't fall under super ugly category because he did on Amazon Lily. And he can draw different attractive female faces, as he did with mermaids and proved once more with gender swapped Supernovas. It's not that he is doing bad, but he could so much better.
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@Strelօk_:
And I think it would be nice if the mods start acting like mature people. It's not like banning me is stopping me from coming here. If you have something against me - say it. Maybe I am not such a bad person.
That's rich.
You're a troll who doesn't learn when to quit and inevitably ends up snapping and attacking individuals, at which point a mod (incidentally it's never been me. shrug) says, "Oh, is it that time again? Didn't we just go through this a few days ago?"
Why come back when you have nothing but bile and contempt for everyone? You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that you're not a bad person.Anyway, in response to your laundry list stripped straight from reddit's men's rights page:
@CCC:
Men being hurt by outdated gender roles is a thing. It exists.
Widespread, systematic misandry at the hands of societies/governments/corporations is not a thing. Not even the few examples of matrilineal societies throughout history actually oppressed men, with the possible exception of like, the Isle of Lesbos.And I don't think the people who compiled that list understand how insurance works. That seems to be a common problem in recent times.
But as Kazhar said, that's completely off-topic.
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They're ignored in this thread because these issues don't have anything to do with how men or women are portrayed in medias. Especially One Piece.
I am not the one who mentioned "Widespread, systematic misandry at the hands of societies/governments/corporations is not a thing. Not even the few examples of matrilineal societies throughout history actually oppressed men, with the possible exception of like, the Isle of Lesbos."
So I was just responding to that.
So the problems in One Piece are looks and behaviour of the female characters?
There are more uniqely designed male characters simply because there are more male characters in general, because it is a shounen manga. But there are still females with an original design.
And I see no problem with the female behaviour. There are plenty of strong leading female for a shounen manga at least. Otohime was an influential queen who cared for her people, Tsuru is also very powerful, Big Mom, Bonney, Lola, Alvida, Nami and Robin are also pretty confident.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@CCC:
That's rich.
You're a troll who doesn't learn when to quit and inevitably ends up snapping and attacking individuals, at which point a mod (incidentally it's never been me. shrug) says, "Oh, is it that time again? Didn't we just go through this a few days ago?"
Why come back when you have nothing but bile to spread and everyone therefore hates you?Anyway, in response to your laundry list stripped straight from reddit's men's rights page:
And I don't think the people who compiled that list understand how insurance works. That seems to be a common problem in recent times.
But as Kazhar said, that's completely off-topic.
I don't troll, if you can't undestand that someone might have a different opinion than you, that's not my problem. And I don't attack individuals, unlike you clearly. Who are yo to say that everyone hates me? And I registered to discuss this topic.
And I don't go to reddit, so the list doesn't come from there. And you never said how women are opressed. I expect you to post the wage gap or some other myth.
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@Al!naJames:
But if you look outside of the crew - girls tend to act cute, think about fashion and love all the time, they are hardly ever in the lead of something, they always get in trouble and need saving, they are also kind and obviously they don't get things that boys like, i.e. robots.
There is precisely one character that fulfills the description - Camie. And even so it is a big stretch. It's arguable she things about fashion and love all the time, she has different things to do too. She has some "love trouble" but that's down played. She is interested in fashion because she wants to be designer. We don't know if she likes robots or not, but she certainly likes stuff boys like - she was just excited about amusement as Luffy and Chopper. She also makes hilarious faces and gets too worked up about little mistakes she makes and she is awesome and distinct female character.
And if you look for fat beautiful Girl there is Boa Marigold to you. She is perhaps one of the most obese, but her features are pretty and she is stated to be beautiful along with her sisters at least twice. -
@Strelօk_:
I expect you to post the wage gap or some other myth.
Could you just go away please. Nobody likes you.
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Are you guys implying that all female characters are weak and "girly" (and that being "girly" is pejorative)?
Amazon Lily, Shakky, Hina, Catarina Devon, Whitey Bay, Rebecca, Robin, Kalifa, Monet, Baby 5, Lola, Bonney… we had all kind of female characters portrayed, I don't get why you guys are making a fuss about some stereotypical jokes that were probably made because he wanted the female versions of the supernovas to be somewhat the opposite of what they are.
Now I want to go over characters specifically, although it's been done before, but I want to present my look on this.
Amazon Lily - the only females we saw there that did some relevant fighting were Boa sisters. Hancock was amazing when she was introduced, but quickly got ruined by sexist love fruit that makes men lust for her and terrible love for Luffy that made her dumb, completely eliminated her fantastic and original (for Oda) huge bitch personality and made "aiding Luffy" her only motivation and purpose in the story. Her sisters? Pretty much all of their quotes and thus personalities limit to "Hancock-onesama" and their fighting, devil fruit and haki abilities? That's right, they just had to be nullified by FAT + ULGY rule.
Shakky - strong, but sadly only present very briefly, pretty much same personality as many other females like Paula (who was also a bartender?) - generally calm, logical and nice and, even though she's the same age as Rayleigh, she just couldn't have been a normal-looking old lady, she had to have the same old usual pretty faceTM and hourglass-shaped figure at her age of 60+ by some miracle.
Hina - another try for a seemingly-strong, once again generic-looking female character who had done… pretty much nothing relevant in the actual story? Thankfully had her cover-arc about Baroque Works chase, but that's about it. People before me suggested her fruit and character trait of speaking of herself in the third person allure to Japanese fetishes? Let's look at the bigger picture of Marines here. How many females are there in Marines that we've seen? Like... 4? Among hundreds of males? Not a single soldier ever too? There's Tashigi who never won a single sword fight despite trying so hard to become a skilled swordwoman, even against another female character recently (Monet) and who is also an object of agony in regard to female sex issues from Zoro? There's Hina who is not there as well as female giant who looks 99% like Hina and did nothing during the war. And finally there's Tsuru who only spoke up briefly during Shichibukai Meeting and has a washing machine fruit. Yeah, right...
Whitey Bay - yeah she was there at war and she was the only female in whole Whitebeard Pirates alliance and crew (which should be already alarming on it's own). Did she do anything? Like anything at all? Ummmm... Nope? I think her only line was commanding her men to go forward? It's like... Did you really honestly use her as a proper example here?
Rebecca - yet another pretty, nice, poor, gentle pink-haired princess who looks 99% like Nami (even for people with most trained eyes) and same personality as Vivi, wears a chainmail bikini as her gladiator outfit for fighting in the Colosseum (!!!) and who's never received a single scratch during fights and wins over her opponents by pushing them off the ring and never leaving a scratch on them as well?.. Again, I'm sorry, but did you really think this was a good example?
Kalifa - lowest douriki of the group by far, generic look, generic personality (same old calm-logistic-nice) with overly-sexualized and fetishized traits (sexy secretary + sexual harassment jokes), sexist bubble fruit and finally going down the usual bad-gone-good as soon as her whole gorup went there, so she wasn't essentially evil, her asshole dad probably forced her into Ciper Pol. Only lasted due to happening to be Sanji's opponent and he can't fight girls. Thankfully to her Nami had her last 1 on 1 fight in the series so far? At least? Thank God?!
Baby-5 - generic look, fetishized theme of maid, idiotic love-interest jokes, but a really cool fruit?! I was super hopefull for her when she showed up, but... how long did her fight last, again? Like one chapter? Hopefully she will have more chances.
Monet - well, here goes our first logia female user. Which honestly happened so random? I'm kind of used to logia users to be themed with their fruit and hers was out of nowhere really. And yukionna character could have been so great? I love Japanese legends and films on her, but Oda went the opposite way and made her look like a tropical bird instead of snowwhite. Her fight didn't last long, her look is, again, sadly, identical to Nami and her personality is basically that of Kalifa's and others before that. She did evil things under Doflamingo's command... which will be probably explained later when she gets her side-story and we find out she was madly in love with him/put under hypnosis? I will be happy if she stays on the bad side, but knowing Oda it's not likely to happen.
Lola was fat, ugly and obsessed with marrying guys. As far as I remember she didn't really do any fighting personally. Come again?
(I'll post this becasue it's getting too long and get onto the remaining girls in the next one, stay tuned)
This whole talk made me think of how many fetish-based female designs we've had thus far... I think we have pretty much whole "roleplay costume" category of a sex-shop complete? Pirate, nurse, french maid, cowgirl, secretary, armored gal, angel, mermaid, s&m leather, loli, army/nazi, policewoman, amazon/jungle... We're only lacking some schoolgirls and we'll be set.
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Btw, I just remembered - Kokoro is woman and alcoholic, Keimi is woman and stupid, Monet is woman and bitch. There were also women who were physical fighters.
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"The arguments you will make are myths"- someone who doesn't actually want to have a discussion.
Per Foolio's sage advice, I'm going to ignore you from now on. It's not worth engaging.
@wolfwoof:
snip
Wolfy- this isn't in response to anything specific, but I noticed that you often question the validity of some of the discussion in this thread (always in a reasoned and sensible way, which is much appreciated) and I was thinking that just maybe it's partly because you live in one of the best damn countries in the world as it pertains to this issue? Not to imply that you're at all insular, but pretty much every other place in the world with the exception of your immediate neighbors is way worse off, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that you might question what the big deal is when you're surrounded by such a winning environment on a daily basis.
Here's the 2013 World Economic Global Gender Gap Index that was recently released:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2013.pdfSweden took the number 4 spot again (which it's been for years; and in 2007 and 2006, it was number 1!). America comes in at a laughable 23 (all our economic sanctions against Cuba couldn't keep them from beating us!), and Japan at a dismal 105 (worse than last year, even, but still beating Korea, which I'm sure they're proud of).
Anyway, I don't think it's right to be casually dismissive of men's issues when they're brought up on their own, in a serious way. But it seems really clear when they're being used as reactionary talking points to downplay the injustices against women throughout all of history, including the present. In the same way, it wouldn't be right/mature to storm into a thread about men's issues (like if someone started a topic about fathers rarely receiving child custody after divorce… in One Piece) and start talking about how women still don't have income equality. That would be confrontational and disingenuous.
On-topic: Kokoro is a solid character. Flawed in serious way (unlike Baby 5), yet heroic and endearing.
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Could you just go away please. Nobody likes you.
As Foolio and C3 said, Don't bother responding. Just make it humorous and use Gifs.
Respond to any of his posts with this:
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@Al!naJames:
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Why did you miss half of them? I would like to add Tsuru, Big Mom, Dadan, Nico Olivia, Alvida, Miss Doublefinger, Kokoro, Vivi, Kureha.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@CCC:
"The arguments you will make are myths"- someone who doesn't actually want to have a discussion.
Per Foolio's sage advice, I'm going to ignore you from now on. It's not worth engaging.
Wolfy- this isn't in response to anything specific, but I noticed that you often question the validity of some of the discussion in this thread (always in a reasoned and sensible way, which is much appreciated) and I was thinking that just maybe it's partly because you live in one of the best damn countries in the world as it pertains to this issue? Not to imply that you're at all insular, but pretty much every other place in the world with the exception of your immediate neighbors is way worse off, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that you might question what the big deal is when you're surrounded by such a winning environment on a daily basis.
Here's the 2013 World Economic Global Gender Gap Index that was recently released:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2013.pdfSweden took the number 4 spot again (which it's been for years; and in 2007 and 2006, it was number 1!). America comes in at a laughable 23 (all our economic sanctions against Cuba couldn't keep them from beating us!), and Japan at a dismal 105 (worse than last year, even, but still beating Korea, which I'm sure they're proud of).
Anyway, I don't think it's right to be casually dismissive of men's issues when they're brought up on their own, in a serious way. But it seems really clear when they're being used as reactionary talking points to downplay the injustices against women throughout all of history, including the present. In the same way, it wouldn't be right/mature to storm into a thread about men's issues (like if someone started a topic about fathers rarely receiving child custody after divorce… in One Piece) and start talking about how women still don't have income equality. That would be confrontational and disingenuous.
On-topic: Kokoro is a solid character. Flawed in serious way (unlike Baby 5), yet heroic and endearing.
So your entire post is focused on one signle issue which is actually non-existant?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048
Men just work more dangerous and high-paying jobs by choice.And while there were probems regarding equality in history they are gone now and I think it's time we look at the present instead of focusing on the past.
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Gah I just can't resist you.
Ok- one more reply. This is it, I promise.@Strelօk_:
And while there were probems regarding equality in history they are gone now and I think it's time we look at the present instead of focusing on the past.
Ladies and gentlemen, the comedic stylings of Strelok the 15th. Book now, because it's sure to be a limited engagement.
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@Strelօk_:
So your entire post is focused on one signle issue which is actually non-existant?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048
Men just work more dangerous and high-paying jobs by choice.And while there were probems regarding equality in history they are gone now and I think it's time we look at the present instead of focusing on the past.
Good luck on trying to apply that small study to all countries on the globe.
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There were at least three female captain in Whitebeard Pirate alliance. Whitebay, who is super hot, Elmy, who is old, fat and ugly. And there is Brocca, who is middle age neither very pretty nor super ugly. That's still too few considering there were almost 50 allied crews.
"I'm a bad guy! I don't save the day, I don't fly off to the sunset and I don't get the girl! I'm going home." - MegaMind
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I actually like Rebecca. She really doesn't seem like the typical princess we've seen so far. She's a honorable fighter and even if it's annoying that she's "untouchable" she's doing it for her father and actually wants to become stronger. She's anything, but passive. Same reason why I like Vivi. Yes, she cries, but she's not directly a damsel. I feel like these "stereotypical" traits aren't bad by themselves. What is wrong with a woman being sexy, being in love, liking fashion/clothes, wanting to get married, being a cook, being proud of their appearance? It's when it becomes pretty much the only thing about their character when it becomes annoying. Best examples in my eyes are probably Lola, Jola and Baby 5, Domino, Sadi. Hancock comes pretty close to that as well. They're all from recent arcs.
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@CCC:
Wolfy- this isn't in response to anything specific, but I noticed that you often question the validity of some of the discussion in this thread (always in a reasoned and sensible way, which is much appreciated) and I was thinking that just maybe it's partly because you live in one of the best damn countries in the world as it pertains to this issue? Not to imply that you're at all insular, but pretty much every other place in the world with the exception of your immediate neighbors is way worse off, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that you might question what the big deal is when you're surrounded by such a winning environment on a daily basis.
That could absolutely be a factor
But more often than not it's just me trying to hone what little i have that counts for my critical thinking, and taking up a contrary point of view to the consensus is always an entertaining way of going about it, like at which angle must i look at this to see another path. And along that path more often than not you tend to see similarities, which i like since it illustrates how not so different most sides are.
Which now that i think about it seems all about me trying to build a more universal consensus….Freaky circles there:ninja:
Anyway, I don't think it's right to be casually dismissive of men's issues when they're brought up on their own, in a serious way. But it seems really clear when they're being used as reactionary talking points to downplay the injustices against women throughout all of history, including the present. In the same way, it wouldn't be right/mature to storm into a thread about men's issues (like if someone started a topic about fathers rarely receiving child custody after divorce… in One Piece) and start talking about how women still don't have income equality. That would be confrontational and disingenuous.
Oh i agree. It's certainly not productive to be all oh yeah well you did X
Two wrongs don't make a right is an oldie but goodie.
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Ok, moving on…
Bonney - her personality really stands out among other girls and her fruit is good. Even though she loves to eat and does that all the time she doesn't get fat so that won't ruin her appearance... it's a miracle. Still, she even did some plot-relevant stuff on Sabaody. Sounds good so far? I think so, but then she went on and lost her first and only fight in the series off-screen and then was used in possibly the most misogynistic scenes of all One Piece when Teach swine'd and offered her place on his ship as a piece of meat cause little cute girls have nothing to do with serious pirate buisness. Ugh. Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Robin - now this one is the subject of my EXTREME pain and suffer. Robin was amazing. She had amazing personality - she was super smart, funny in her own way, cruel and with one of the most original powers ever - and with all of that she got in the main cast. Brilliant. She had amazing looks - her own sense of fashion that was often quite modest and her face was original and beautiful. She had fights to fight and things to say. However, she is like that no more :( I'm mourning the old Robin on daily basis. Her once outstanding face is now completely gone, her style erased along with her role in the story. Why is this happening.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand finally there's Devon. Who is like my only pride and joy, but whom we haven't seen in action almost completely so she's really hard to judge at this point. Like I said before, knowing what we know from Green databook, Oda was agonizing with her character for wooping ~10 years. She has to be strong being one of the world's worst criminals so of course she had to receive a drastically ugly face which Oda then decided to compensate with her body and giving her breasts 2 times bigger than the usual already-huge boobs he draws for all OP girls. I guess... thanks for that? I'm really curious what kind of outfit we will see her in after timeskip. Speaking of which - despite being a really horrible person and a nasty criminal and an ex-pirate captain (which I assume are things that are supposed to be giving extra strong personality points), what's she saying right here?
That's right, who cares about stupid ships and other business stuff? What bullshit! Women only care about a dress to wear, first things first. -
Apart from the fact, that they are both princesses of countries in trouble and they are nice people I can't see how Rebecca and Vivi are anything alike.
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@wolfwoof:
But more often than not it's just me trying to hone what little i have that counts for my critical thinking, and taking up a contrary point of view to the consensus is always an entertaining way of going about it, like at which angle must i look at this to see another path.
You do realize that this forum is weird for even having these kinds of discussions, right?
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@wolfwoof:
So why isn't man hate considered to be a real thing?
That misandry (What a strange word) doesn't cancel out misogyny seems perfectly reasonable
But people seem to be saying that hating men can't be a real thing nor a problem, which seems curious to me
Of course it's real and bad.
But we're talking about proportion here.
Like which one is WAY more a problem, and way more actually likely to cause physical damage like say in wages and hiring.Following up with what CCC is saying is that it's great to keep all gender problems in mind, I mean I don't buy that you can't be doing both at once. All the more reason being that they ARE connected at the end of the day.
But people are weary of a lot of so-called "mens rights" types, because very often they are hostile and reactionary types.
Basically I think it's a pretty easy test to see if they're for real or not.
Do they care and discuss and think on BOTH genders. A guy who only applies himself to dude rights? I don't trust those guys at all.The worst ones are the ones who turn into some sort of bullshit nonexistent war. Like to support one you HAVE to attack the other?
imo, all the worst stuff stems from gender segregation at the end of the day. You mix the kids, let them do their thing. And people are not gonna grow up so damned sectarian. They're gonna think of each-other as people more from square one, and not as some dehumanized abstract other.Fundamentally it's what bothers me about OP's increased wierdness. That sense of some sort of veil.
Like all I'm even asking for is Dragonball. Where female characters don't even do too much, but damn it they are on the same friggin' plane of existence as the guys. That's really all. A manga from the 80's lol. -
You do realize that this forum is weird for even having these kinds of discussions, right?
It does seem that way doesn't it.
At least compared to your average youtube comment section, subreddit, or any given geekdom community. -
I really disagree with your negative take on Robin, Alina. I really like that she's gotten more expressive. Her interactions with Usopp are great. Yes, her design is slowly changing for the worse, but her personality never has. She still has her crazy imagination and her morbid sense of humor. If anything, I like that she's more active with the crew.
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@Al!naJames:
Whitey Bay - yeah she was there at war and she was the only female in whole Whitebeard Pirates alliance and crew (which should be already alarming on it's own). Did she do anything? Like anything at all? Ummmm… Nope? I think her only line was commanding her men to go forward? It's like... Did you really honestly use her as a proper example here?
What about Elmy?.
Kalifa - lowest douriki of the group by far
Spandam has 9.
The problem with you is that whenever oda will introduce a woman you will always find a problem with her, That's what it seems to me, like if oda introduce a strong female with great-looking + big boobs you will say hey look oda never introduced strong woman but when he did, she has big boobs and she's pretty, and if he introduce a strong woman with a bad-looking (like big mom) you will say oh look he never introduced strong woman but when he did she's ugly… and so on and so forth.
Plus all the women you just talked about now are not introduced in the show as a supposed strong characters, not even they were introduced to play a big role like Lucci/Croco/Enel etc... for me i will call a sexism for example a woman admiral but that is very weak compared to the other admirals or like Big mom being a very weak yonko defeated by Luffy only. Now and only now we can say it's sexism.
Sorry my English is not perfect.
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There were at least three female captain in Whitebeard Pirate alliance. Whitebay, who is super hot, Elmy, who is old, fat and ugly. And there is Brocca, who is middle age neither very pretty nor super ugly. That's still too few considering there were almost 50 allied crews.
43 allies. In a world where it's clear women are rare.
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You do realize that this forum is weird for even having these kinds of discussions, right?
Hey it's not my fault there aren't enough frat boys around here
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@CCC:
Here's the 2013 World Economic Global Gender Gap Index that was recently released:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2013.pdfSweden took the number 4 spot again (which it's been for years; and in 2007 and 2006, it was number 1!). America comes in at a laughable 23 (all our economic sanctions against Cuba couldn't keep them from beating us!), and Japan at a dismal 105 (worse than last year, even, but still beating Korea, which I'm sure they're proud of).
"Cyprus 79"
Welcome to like, comparative paradise Chrissie lol.
(also CT is probably even greater within the overall US score) -
You do realize that this forum is weird for even having these kinds of discussions, right?
I love your new avatar.
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People not being so darn sectarian I think would help gay folks and anyone else out in the LGBT sphere too. Less rigid world, more wiggle room for everyone.
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@CCC:
On-topic: Kokoro is a solid character. Flawed in serious way (unlike Baby 5), yet heroic and endearing.
Old, Ugly and Fat are key-words. If you're old and/or fat/ugly you can fight (Boa sisters), you can be alcoholic (Kokoro), you can be crazy (Kureha), grumpy (Dadan), evil bitch (Alvida), loving to gossip and talk non-stop (Miss Merry Christmas), openly chase after men in aggressive way (Lola), get a higher rank (Tsuru) hell, you can even be a flippin' Yonkou.
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43 allies. In a world where it's clear women are rare.
yeah, my bad, I've counted ships
but that's 45, Whitebeard's crew is one, allies are 43 and there is Jinbe crew's who are also in the alliance, but only Jinbe was at the battle.
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@Al!naJames:
Old, Ugly and Fat are key-words. If you're old and/or fat/ugly you can fight (Boa sisters), you can be alcoholic (Kokoro), you can be crazy (Kureha), grumpy (Dadan), evil bitch (Alvida), loving to gossip and talk non-stop (Miss Merry Christmas), openly chase after men in aggressive way (Lola), get a higher rank (Tsuru) hell, you can even be a flippin' Yonkou.
Even if that's a stereotype, especially putting into One Piece context, it can be overlooked because they're(personally thinking here Kokoro, Kureha, Dadan) actually interesting and fun characters.
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Sure. Fat and ugly is often the kicker.
But I still appreciated the depth that bonefied alcoholism gave to her character. She was an ordinary woman with no powers, broken, depressed and without any grand aspirations, who wound up rising up and risking her life to help the future Pirate King declare war on the government.
